EV Digest 2581
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: General Battery Concensus
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) New battery? Lead acid temperature-capacity chart.
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Questions about wiring aux 12v bat to dc conv
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) Re: Recipe for battricide?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5) Re: New battery? Lead acid temperature-capacity chart.
by "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: General Battery Consensus
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: General Battery Concensus
by Christian Kocmick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) (no subject)
by "Buford, Joseph E" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: General Battery Concensus
by Christian Kocmick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: General Battery Concensus
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Tour de Sol (was: (re) introduction/Tour de sol)
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Air Cooled Controllers
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) flaky listserv again?
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) liquid cooled 8" ADC
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: liquid cooled 8" ADC
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Brush Advance
by Martin Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: New Controllers from Cafe Electric
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Ebay Findings
by Lin Tse Hsu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: New Controllers from Cafe Electric/ Now Fairings.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Questions about wiring aux 12v bat to dc conv
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: General Battery Concensus
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Air Cooled Controllers
by Lonnie Borntreger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: General Battery Concensus
by Lonnie Borntreger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Blade ev cycle
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: General Battery Concensus
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Venus 1
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Kick in the pants 0 to 60 in 2.5 seconds.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Measuring Current
by Ken Lange <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: EVLN(JDPower now attacks hybrids instead of EVs)
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Re: Blade ev cycle
by Gordon Niessen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
31) Re: Kick in the pants 0 to 60 in 2.5 seconds.
by Jessica & Donald Jansen & Crabtree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
32) thoughts and questions
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
You might organize your thoughts in a spreadsheet. Each column is a battery
type and each row is a concern or characteristic. You hit the columns very
well except for the Lead Acid and Optima headings. They should be Flooded
Lead Acid and AGM Lead Acid.
Another thing that did not come out in your list is how Gel Cell and
Cranking batteries are not in the same league as flooded and AGM batteries
although they are similar in maintenance, the performance is different
making them unsuitable for EV on road service.
One more category you can use, is how much Peukert's effect reduces the
capacity at high loads. This limits the battery capacity under high current.
You did not differentiate between Lithium Ion and Lithium Polymer batteries.
There is a difference in performance, availability and cost. You could bring
that out as well.
Capacity can be rated as kWh per pound or kilogram and KWH per cubic foot or
liter.
Discharge rate can be rated as kW per pound or kilogram and KW per cubic
foot or liter.
Charging complexity can be defined by how complex the charger must be and
how may people make chargers compatible with the chemistry.
Environmental friendliness can be defined as the legal disposal
requirements.
Maintenance can be defined by the procedures required and how often they
need to be repeated.
Maturity of the technology in the EV world can be defined by how many cars
use a particular technology. This can also be defined as Market Penetration.
You have a good start to a very useful table.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Harper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 10:41 AM
Subject: General Battery Concensus
> I'd like to get everyones feedback and corrections to my views on the
> current state of battery technology, including (but not limited to) the
> following categories:
> -Lead Acid : A good staple battery. Proven to provide adequate
> service, though it does not have a high capacity
> -Optima Yellow Top : A step up from the lead acid. Providing more
> reliable, easier to care for service, though also lacking in the
> capacity.
> -Ni-Cad : A step up from the Yellow Top offering a higher-capacity but
> less environmentally friendly, harder to dispose of, and harder to
> charge. Not widely available, and may require special watering systems.
> -NiMH : Another step up from Ni-Cad, offering easier to maintain packs,
> but not available. Higher capacity.
> -Evercell : I am unsure of its capacity in relation to Ni-Cad, and
> NiMH, but I believe it is higher than the Yellow Top. No proven
> track-record, but could be a good Lead Acid replacement. More
> expensive.
> -Li-Ion : Just recently available in a size needed by EVs (one example
> being Thunder Sky). No proven track record. Has the highest capacity.
> VERY Expensive.
>
> Please add, modify, and delete from this list. Thanks! I appreciate
> the help as I learn more about this field.
>
> -Sam
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello All,
Someone, I've forgotten who, was recently asking about how much
temperature affects battery capacity. I happened across a page which
has a temperature graph on it.
http://www.alliedbattery.com/gel.htm (wait, there's a better pdf below)
Also, while we're at it, what about using this battery line for EVs?
I was speaking with Dale Glubrecht the other day and he mentioned it.
He said it was actually a AGM, not a gel. I saw one page listing the
peukerts at 1.11 (http://members.aol.com/wb3lgc/solar.htm) which
would support that idea. If that's true this may be a pretty nice
battery.
Does anyone know anything more about it? There's not much information
on the Trojan web site. http://www.trojanbattery.com/
Oh Whoops, I spoke too soon, Google found this:
http://www.trojanbattery.com/images/vrlasupergel.pdf
Hmmm, real data. They list them down to a 5 minute rate so they must
be fine at high current. I don't see any life cycle numbers though...
They do seem to have done some good features.
We added an epoxy post seal to
prevent gas leakage. We included a pressure relief valve for each
individual cell to prevent capacity imbalances between cells.
This ought to make them equalize well.
Has anyone used these? Any idea on cycle life?
It looks like the SG-90 might be good if we could find a reasonable
deal on them. The SG-50 looks similar in performance to an Optima.
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ New Zilla controllers, now available.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm trying to wire up a 12v aux battery to my dc converter, and plan to
power the standard accessories off the 12v instead of directly from the dc
converter. Rather than having the dc converter alway maintain the 12v aux at
12.0+/1vdc, is there some way to rig up more of a charging circuit? In other
words, set it up as the following:
aux bat dc converter
13v stop charging (or whatever the top setpoint v is)
drop in v nothing
11.0v start charging (or whatever the bottom setupoint v is)
rise in v charge
13v stop charging...
Does this make sense? What is needed to switch the current output from the
dc conv on and off to accomplish this?
BR,
Ed T
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
I think you might have missed the posting where I said that no matter what I get
at work, it will have to be run. So although, I'd like a 120v charger, I can
have a 220 outlet.
James
Quoting Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> If 120vac is all you can get at work, then you need a 120vac charger.
> You want to charge at work, because reducing your depth of discharge
> will extend the life of your batteries. Optimas are expensive, so if
> you
> don't pay now, you'll pay more later!
>
> On the skill side, this type of charger is very simple. We can help you
> work through it. I can supply an exact circuit diagram telling where
> every wire goes.
>
> On the cost side, buying surplus or used parts will help. For example,
> The Surplus Center, 1-800-488-3407 lists a 1000 watt 230/115vac
> isolation transformer, item #15-1069, for $49.95. Jameco Electronics
> 1-800-831-4242 <www.jameco.com> has an 800v 35amp bridge rectifier,
> part
> #178431, for $2.95. They also have switches, wire, and other misc.
> parts. Home Depot or Menards will have the GFCI and timer. The entire
> charger won't cost over $100.
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Otmar:
Thank you for your reply. The charts are an interesting start.
However, one question I have with these curves is that they seem to be
measuring only battery "capacity", and not max current under seriously
whacked loads.
Reason being that I would guess that if I discharged a 32 degree temped
Hawker at C/10 rate it would probably have 65% capacity of a nice warm
hawker sitting in my house. But on an electric car we don't discharge at
C/10; I'm discharging at 2C, 3C, heck even 4C. Lead Acid batteries "work" by
moving sulfur from solution to plates. It's a chemical reaction that depends
on temp. And of course there's a limit to how fast this can happen,
depending on battery design, specific gravity, chemestry, plates, etc.
My feeling is that temp also limits the rate at which this reaction can
occur. And that the effects are felt geometrically as the temp goes down and
the load goes past the factory rated C/10 or C/20 and into our world which
is more on the order of 2C-4C. (A 600 amp controller is 3C of even a T105's
220a/hr rate at C20)
That's why I am asking people to give me some real-world figures so I can
cross-cooerlate them with my Prizm and see if I blew up some more batteries.
Right now I'm getting about 12ah out of a 50ah pack. Granted I am way
conservative in my driving and "turn for home now"-ness, but that's still a
capacity of 25%, not 60%.
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: "Otmar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 2:42 PM
Subject: New battery? Lead acid temperature-capacity chart.
> Hello All,
> Someone, I've forgotten who, was recently asking about how much
> temperature affects battery capacity. I happened across a page which
> has a temperature graph on it.
>
> http://www.alliedbattery.com/gel.htm (wait, there's a better pdf below)
>
> Also, while we're at it, what about using this battery line for EVs?
> I was speaking with Dale Glubrecht the other day and he mentioned it.
> He said it was actually a AGM, not a gel. I saw one page listing the
> peukerts at 1.11 (http://members.aol.com/wb3lgc/solar.htm) which
> would support that idea. If that's true this may be a pretty nice
> battery.
>
> Does anyone know anything more about it? There's not much information
> on the Trojan web site. http://www.trojanbattery.com/
> Oh Whoops, I spoke too soon, Google found this:
> http://www.trojanbattery.com/images/vrlasupergel.pdf
>
> Hmmm, real data. They list them down to a 5 minute rate so they must
> be fine at high current. I don't see any life cycle numbers though...
>
> They do seem to have done some good features.
>
> >We added an epoxy post seal to
> >prevent gas leakage. We included a pressure relief valve for each
> >individual cell to prevent capacity imbalances between cells.
>
> This ought to make them equalize well.
>
> Has anyone used these? Any idea on cycle life?
> It looks like the SG-90 might be good if we could find a reasonable
> deal on them. The SG-50 looks similar in performance to an Optima.
>
> -Otmar-
>
> http://www.CafeElectric.com/ New Zilla controllers, now available.
> http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've already chucked together a quick table with these sorts of stats at:
http://home.iprimus.com.au/fowler/ecar_batteries.html
The pricing info is in $Aus, and for the Worleys is just wrong :-(
Actually, here is a spreadsheet that does have the current info in it (with
semi-correct Aus prices)
http://home.iprimus.com.au/fowler/battery.xls
I reckon it would be a useful thing to keep a general purpose table such as this
(though with US prices :-) as a quick reference at battery replacement time. What do
you think? How would we do it?
Mark
(rest of my EV stuff at http://home.iprimus.com.au/fowler/ecar_stuff.html)
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Smalley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Sunday, 9 February 2003 6:24 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: General Battery Concensus
You might organize your thoughts in a spreadsheet. Each column is a battery
type and each row is a concern or characteristic. You hit the columns very
well except for the Lead Acid and Optima headings. They should be Flooded
Lead Acid and AGM Lead Acid.
Another thing that did not come out in your list is how Gel Cell and
Cranking batteries are not in the same league as flooded and AGM batteries
although they are similar in maintenance, the performance is different
making them unsuitable for EV on road service.
One more category you can use, is how much Peukert's effect reduces the
capacity at high loads. This limits the battery capacity under high current.
You did not differentiate between Lithium Ion and Lithium Polymer batteries.
There is a difference in performance, availability and cost. You could bring
that out as well.
Capacity can be rated as kWh per pound or kilogram and KWH per cubic foot or
liter.
Discharge rate can be rated as kW per pound or kilogram and KW per cubic
foot or liter.
Charging complexity can be defined by how complex the charger must be and
how may people make chargers compatible with the chemistry.
Environmental friendliness can be defined as the legal disposal
requirements.
Maintenance can be defined by the procedures required and how often they
need to be repeated.
Maturity of the technology in the EV world can be defined by how many cars
use a particular technology. This can also be defined as Market Penetration.
You have a good start to a very useful table.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Harper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 10:41 AM
Subject: General Battery Concensus
> I'd like to get everyones feedback and corrections to my views on the
> current state of battery technology, including (but not limited to) the
> following categories:
> -Lead Acid : A good staple battery. Proven to provide adequate
> service, though it does not have a high capacity
> -Optima Yellow Top : A step up from the lead acid. Providing more
> reliable, easier to care for service, though also lacking in the
> capacity.
> -Ni-Cad : A step up from the Yellow Top offering a higher-capacity but
> less environmentally friendly, harder to dispose of, and harder to
> charge. Not widely available, and may require special watering systems.
> -NiMH : Another step up from Ni-Cad, offering easier to maintain packs,
> but not available. Higher capacity.
> -Evercell : I am unsure of its capacity in relation to Ni-Cad, and
> NiMH, but I believe it is higher than the Yellow Top. No proven
> track-record, but could be a good Lead Acid replacement. More
> expensive.
> -Li-Ion : Just recently available in a size needed by EVs (one example
> being Thunder Sky). No proven track record. Has the highest capacity.
> VERY Expensive.
>
> Please add, modify, and delete from this list. Thanks! I appreciate
> the help as I learn more about this field.
>
> -Sam
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Where would exotic batteries, such as sodium-nickel hydride batteries fit in?
On Saturday 08 February 2003 01:41 pm, Sam Harper wrote:
> I'd like to get everyones feedback and corrections to my views on the
> current state of battery technology, including (but not limited to) the
> following categories:
> -Lead Acid : A good staple battery. Proven to provide adequate
> service, though it does not have a high capacity
> -Optima Yellow Top : A step up from the lead acid. Providing more
> reliable, easier to care for service, though also lacking in the
> capacity.
> -Ni-Cad : A step up from the Yellow Top offering a higher-capacity but
> less environmentally friendly, harder to dispose of, and harder to
> charge. Not widely available, and may require special watering systems.
> -NiMH : Another step up from Ni-Cad, offering easier to maintain packs,
> but not available. Higher capacity.
> -Evercell : I am unsure of its capacity in relation to Ni-Cad, and
> NiMH, but I believe it is higher than the Yellow Top. No proven
> track-record, but could be a good Lead Acid replacement. More
> expensive.
> -Li-Ion : Just recently available in a size needed by EVs (one example
> being Thunder Sky). No proven track record. Has the highest capacity.
> VERY Expensive.
>
> Please add, modify, and delete from this list. Thanks! I appreciate
> the help as I learn more about this field.
>
> -Sam
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>From The NASA Tech Briefs 2/6/03
RESEARCH NEWS
Bruce Dunn, from the UCLA Henry Samueli School of Engineering and
Applied Science, has established the working basis for a 3-D,
lightweight, rechargeable battery that can power micromechanical
devices. The "paradigm shift," according to Dunn, is not so much that
the batteries are small, but that they are designed for three
dimensions. Laptop computer and cell phone batteries, for example,
use positive and negative electrodes stacked upon one another like
sheets of paper. For more power, more layers of electrodes are added,
making the battery bigger and heavier.
The UCLA-led team proposes changing from two-dimensional sheets of
electrodes to rods arranged in a three-dimensional array in which
hundreds of rods are stacked next to each other like tubes on a
flatbed truck. Each rod is only a thousandth of a centimeter in
size.
This design keeps the battery compact and the distance the ions have
to travel short, which is important. "A more efficient path for the
movement of ions means less power loss and a longer-lasting battery," Dunn said.
The group is currently designing a battery roughly five millimeters
in size, which presents significant design challenges. "We're going
to use fairly well-known lithium battery materials," Dunn said. "The
hard part is fabricating it into a structure."
Batteries this small are necessary to run MEMS devices used in the
medical, automotive, and aerospace industries. For example, doctors
could use implantable devices that deliver drugs or protect
transplanted cells. And the need for a lightweight battery that
won't sacrifice energy for small size is only going to grow as cell
phones and video cameras shrink. Already, up to 35 percent of a
laptop's total weight comes from its battery.
Dunn believes it will be a while before 3-D battery designs make it
into the consumer market. "The portable power market is so vast that
if we are very successful, I am sure our concepts and designs will
be used to try to make 3-D power supplies. But probably not for at
least another five years."
For details, contact Dr. Dunn at [EMAIL PROTECTED], or go to:
http://link.abpi.net/l.php?20030206A4 or
http://www.seas.ucla.edu/muri3d/
Joe Buford
310-416-9319
Boeing Satellite Systems
702 \O/
[XXXXX]-H-[XXXXX]
/0\ GEO
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Correction: Sodium-Nickel Chloride batteries, such as are used in the Santa
Barbara transit buses.
On Saturday 08 February 2003 06:52 pm, Christian Kocmick wrote:
> Where would exotic batteries, such as sodium-nickel hydride batteries fit
> in?
>
> On Saturday 08 February 2003 01:41 pm, Sam Harper wrote:
> > I'd like to get everyones feedback and corrections to my views on the
> > current state of battery technology, including (but not limited to) the
> > following categories:
> > -Lead Acid : A good staple battery. Proven to provide adequate
> > service, though it does not have a high capacity
> > -Optima Yellow Top : A step up from the lead acid. Providing more
> > reliable, easier to care for service, though also lacking in the
> > capacity.
> > -Ni-Cad : A step up from the Yellow Top offering a higher-capacity but
> > less environmentally friendly, harder to dispose of, and harder to
> > charge. Not widely available, and may require special watering systems.
> > -NiMH : Another step up from Ni-Cad, offering easier to maintain packs,
> > but not available. Higher capacity.
> > -Evercell : I am unsure of its capacity in relation to Ni-Cad, and
> > NiMH, but I believe it is higher than the Yellow Top. No proven
> > track-record, but could be a good Lead Acid replacement. More
> > expensive.
> > -Li-Ion : Just recently available in a size needed by EVs (one example
> > being Thunder Sky). No proven track record. Has the highest capacity.
> > VERY Expensive.
> >
> > Please add, modify, and delete from this list. Thanks! I appreciate
> > the help as I learn more about this field.
> >
> > -Sam
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
-Optima Yellow Top : A step up from the lead acid. Providing more
reliable, easier to care for service, though also lacking in the capacity.
I would have reservations about the "easier to care for". No, they don't
need to be watered. However, they are touchy about charge/discharge. I
know of at least one manufacture of NEVs that switched their standard pack
from Optimas to floodeds LA because too many people were murdering the
batteries. They're fine for many of the dedicated car people on this list
who monitor their car's every hiccup. They may not be so good for Joe
Civilian, who tends to drive a car and otherwise ignore it. Agreed, Joe
Civilian may also murder flooded batteries by not watering them, but they
are more forgiving and cheaper to replace.
You might also want to add cycle life as a factor in your table.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
1sclunn wrote:
> Last year the Tour de Sol was the same week as my Rally and This
> did not help the trun out, When is it going to be this year (so
> I can plan ahead)
The Tour de Sol will be May 11 - 14, 2004
It seems to be fewer days this year, and strange spacing with a 35 mile
leg and a 140 mile leg ? (making it even more an ICE hybrid event??)
see http://www.nesea.org/transportation/tour/
May 11: Location to be announced
May 12: Trenton, NJ
May 13: Philadelphia, PA
May 14: Washington, DC
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S-10
1970s Elec-Trak E20
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All this talk of the Zilla had me thinking ...
What is available as a 'drop in' for the
air cooled Cursit 1221 (a-z) controller, or
the air cooled Auburn controllers?
Are there any with regen?
Lower powered, lower cost, air cooled controllers would
not hit my pack as hard, I would not be paying for the
power I do not use, and I would not have to be concerned
with any plumbing for liquid cooling.
...
My other thought is what if Otmar made a lower amperage
controller. His 1000 amp controller is called Zilla.
Following the GodZilla movie theme, the smaller version
of GodZilla was, Baby GodZilla. So would Otmar name this
lower powered controller:
-baby Zilla,
-lil Zilla, or
-Zilla-lite?
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am getting about a 30% success rate in sending messages to the list.
Anyone else experiencing this?
Seth
--
vze3v25q@verizondotnet
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<this is the third time I have tried posting this, it doesn't seem to
want to get to the list.>
The local surplus place has copper cooling coils made of 5/8" tube.
They are 8" inside diameter and 12-14 inches long. They look like you
could slide them on a motor. $50 each, I think. I don't have an 8"
motor, but it looks like a visually interesting experiment waiting to happen.
Seth
--
vze3v25q@verizondotnet
--
vze3v25q@verizondotnet
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A picture:
He has an ebay auction too.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=26234&item=3310159001
Seth
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on the
Subject: Re: Fw: Motorcycle Transmission/Performance at 48v
"I wish I had a dyno to tune the brushes while running."
On the subject of arcing, the vaporizing copper is orange, nearly
yellow (5850 angstroms). But. there is 5 times more UV (3250
angstroms) emitted. I have cataracts, so I don't want to hear about
anyone else getting them.
You should be able to get reasonable comparative data on a low speed
vehicle using a 'standard' hill that allows you to start at a given
point and accelerate to a high rpm over 7-10 seconds. Using an e-meter
and recording the output, plot the resulting Amps vs. time. Align the
various runs at extrapolated 0 Amps. The battery temp. and SoC and the
motor temperature should be consistent.
"After the Wayland experience I wish I knew more about adjusting brushes."
As John has more 'experiences' than anyone, which one in particular ?
Get his nomex out of the closet and put it near his Apple.
______________________________________________________________________
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's a good comment. I'd settle for that kind of performance. 0 to 60 in
2 seconds? I'd settle for 6 seconds. I suspect if done right 100 miles
wouldn't be out of the question. Lawrence Rhodes..
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 9:14 AM
Subject: Re: New Controllers from Cafe Electric
> At 02:18 PM 2/7/03, you wrote:
> >Why scary? All the rice rockets seem to do fine untill some idiot gets
> >their hands on them. I would just like to experience some normal
> >performance in an EV for once. I figure I can get very fast 0 to 60,
long
> >range and good handling with 250 pounds of batteries. Anybody done this
> >yet? All the examples I have seen just had moderate performance and
range.
> >Lawrence Rhodes......
>
> Well, my bike has just over 300 pounds of batteries. It gets
> reasonable performance, but, to be honest, I wish it were a little better.
>
>
> _ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
> \'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> =(___)=
> U
> Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
>
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...
>One EV hobbyist recently had a problem with a
different type of module,
>and
>AFAIK the cause isn't yet fully known. This is
only one case, so it's
>hardly statistically useful.
...like the space shuttle disaster?
Actually, infrequent events, even only one, have a
great deal of statistical significance, since they can
unseat a priori (1 in 100000) based statistical
models. Even a single event can dramatically modify
such estimates.
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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Went to the website. Nice fairing on the new bike. Would a half full
fairing like that help an on road bike with power usage at say 60 mph. Got
any figures as to how much hp it would take to do constant speed with that
fairing. Also seems that what you wear would effect drag. A racing overall
wouldn't flap in the wind. A wind breaker would and cause drag. Lawrence
Rhodes.
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 9:14 AM
Subject: Re: New Controllers from Cafe Electric
> At 02:18 PM 2/7/03, you wrote:
> >Why scary? All the rice rockets seem to do fine untill some idiot gets
> >their hands on them. I would just like to experience some normal
> >performance in an EV for once. I figure I can get very fast 0 to 60,
long
> >range and good handling with 250 pounds of batteries. Anybody done this
> >yet? All the examples I have seen just had moderate performance and
range.
> >Lawrence Rhodes......
>
> Well, my bike has just over 300 pounds of batteries. It gets
> reasonable performance, but, to be honest, I wish it were a little better.
>
>
> _ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
> \'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> =(___)=
> U
> Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
>
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One problem with running the aux off the 12v bat is cars realy run on 14v so
stuff dosn't work quite so will off a 12v battery . of course your dc
converter must be able to put out enough power the run everthing by it's
self . If you don't want the dc converter draining your big pack while
driving you could hook a relay to the key switch so that when the car is on
the relay cuts the dc converter out . you would need a relay with two on's
and use the on that's off when the coil is on .
Why do you want to do this ?
Steve Clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 11:45 AM
Subject: Questions about wiring aux 12v bat to dc conv
> I'm trying to wire up a 12v aux battery to my dc converter, and plan to
> power the standard accessories off the 12v instead of directly from the dc
> converter. Rather than having the dc converter alway maintain the 12v aux
at
> 12.0+/1vdc, is there some way to rig up more of a charging circuit? In
other
> words, set it up as the following:
>
> aux bat dc converter
> 13v stop charging (or whatever the top setpoint v is)
> drop in v nothing
> 11.0v start charging (or whatever the bottom setupoint v is)
> rise in v charge
> 13v stop charging...
>
> Does this make sense? What is needed to switch the current output from the
> dc conv on and off to accomplish this?
>
> BR,
> Ed T
>
>
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This should be interesting , I'm looking forward to what others have to say
. The problem with all the comparisons is all the variables , The answers
that you get will show a lot of what people feel is important . My Porsche
is ready for me to do something in the battery department and so I am again
weighing all the possibilities ( my first pack was some 12v deep cycle 31's
which I would not do again) .
Here are my 3 Picks and likes and dislikes
1 Optima's YT's ( I would probable end up the equelivent battery by excide
and hope they're as good )
pro's - 20 bats 240v only 900 lbs. , puts out lots of amps these would make
my car go fast , sealed /no watering , easy to work with (small 42lbs )
con's - have to do a better job of charging , 35 ah/ 1C (although twice the
voltage of golf carts) , $3 to $4 per lb.
2 golf cart bat's
pro's $1 per lb. Controller will be running at lower voltage.
con's would take 40 to = 240v (end up with 20/ 1350lbs 120v) , must water,
as voltage is 1/2 there will be more line loss .
3 UPS
pro's $.50 per lb (this is a deal I'm getting $40 a bat for a 90 lbs bat)
sealed
con's Can't take heavy current draw (one died at 500amps ) hard to fit
(they are big!) , no track record (I'm getting them used)
Well after writhing this down I like the no 1's but if something doesn't
sell I'll end up with the 3's
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Harper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 10:41 AM
Subject: General Battery Concensus
> I'd like to get everyones feedback and corrections to my views on the
> current state of battery technology, including (but not limited to) the
> following categories:
> -Lead Acid : A good staple battery. Proven to provide adequate
> service, though it does not have a high capacity
> -Optima Yellow Top : A step up from the lead acid. Providing more
> reliable, easier to care for service, though also lacking in the
> capacity.
> -Ni-Cad : A step up from the Yellow Top offering a higher-capacity but
> less environmentally friendly, harder to dispose of, and harder to
> charge. Not widely available, and may require special watering systems.
> -NiMH : Another step up from Ni-Cad, offering easier to maintain packs,
> but not available. Higher capacity.
> -Evercell : I am unsure of its capacity in relation to Ni-Cad, and
> NiMH, but I believe it is higher than the Yellow Top. No proven
> track-record, but could be a good Lead Acid replacement. More
> expensive.
> -Li-Ion : Just recently available in a size needed by EVs (one example
> being Thunder Sky). No proven track record. Has the highest capacity.
> VERY Expensive.
>
> Please add, modify, and delete from this list. Thanks! I appreciate
> the help as I learn more about this field.
>
> -Sam
>
>
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On Sat, 2003-02-08 at 20:12, Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
> Following the GodZilla movie theme, the smaller version
> of GodZilla was, Baby GodZilla. So would Otmar name this
> lower powered controller:
>
> -baby Zilla,
> -lil Zilla, or
> -Zilla-lite?
Lil-Zil
Reptar (from Rug Rats)
Or, in the vein of Zilla2K or Zilla1K, he could have a Zilla500.
Lonnie
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On Sat, 2003-02-08 at 18:46, Electro Automotive wrote:
> You might also want to add cycle life as a factor in your table.
I'd like to see $/Wh as calculated from average battery cost and Wh
available over the average life expectancy of the battery.
Lonnie
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http://www.electricmoto.com/blade.htm They say it runs with 250. Anybody
rode one? They are in Ashland OR. Lawrence Rhodes..........
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One thing I've been trying to do while looking at batteries is to look at
$/mi for the pack.
This has to take into account:
A) Average trip length (i.e. average DOD)
B) $ for the pack
C) Useful cycle life with the above DOD.
Of course the DOD for a given trip changes for each type of battery, so you
can't just use 50% DOD for all battery types.
Example: My Sparrow with a 27 mile commute is about a 90% DOD for Optimas,
but would probably only be about a 40% DOD for a LiIon pack.
At 10:29 PM 2/8/2003 -0600, Lonnie Borntreger wrote:
On Sat, 2003-02-08 at 18:46, Electro Automotive wrote:
> You might also want to add cycle life as a factor in your table.
I'd like to see $/Wh as calculated from average battery cost and Wh
available over the average life expectancy of the battery.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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http://www.venus-b2b.com/NewFiles/venusone.html
Lithium Ion batteries.... Lawrence Rhodes.....
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http://www.kelseyville.com/biodsl/bike.htm This is the answer to the what
if of a 72v Motorcycle. Lawrence Rhodes......
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I've been using dc current sensors from Honeywell
in my car. I have one to sense the battery current,
one for the motor current, and a third to sense the
charging current. They have worked well for the 3
years I've been driving the car. They are small and
require no connections to the battery pack; thus
they give you complete isolation. The downside
is that they require some extra electronics to
process the signals. I use the signals to drive
gauges on the dash as well as the emeter.
The Zivan battery smoother also uses the
Honeywell current sensor.
Best regards,
Ken
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The wording of this survey appears to have been designed to "sell" the diesel
option. And what's with "petrol engine"? Was this study conducted in the
US, or England? If the former, did the respondents really know what the
researcher was asking?
Poorly designed market research is far worse than no research at all. Just
ask the Coca-Cola Company.
David Roden
Akron OH USA
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Interesting.
But, I have never seen the E-Tek motor rated so high. And the Watt Hours
of the battery (a Hawker Genesis G16EP for the looks of it) is rated at
800, which is the 20hr rate. The controller is a 400Amp controller, while
the E-Tek can only handle 330 amps for 1 minute. But at even 200 amps, I
am not sure the battery would even last a minute. I don't think it would
last long enough for a moto-cross sprint race. And where does the variable
charge time of 20 to 60 minutes come from?
They really should be clearer for commercial advertising. They may get
quite a few returns in their 1-week return policy. But then they don't
pay the shipping.
<flame off>
That said, I still think it might be fun. I have radio controlled cars
that can really tear up the track for 10 minutes where they can draw a peak
35+ amps and only have a 3000mA battery pack. I just switch packs to
extend my fun. I guess if I can pay $50-70 for a pack on a $300 car,
someone would be willing to pay $400-500 for a spare pack (or two) for
their $6000 blade.
I'll keep an eye out for it on the X-games.
At 12:54 AM 2/9/2003, you wrote:
http://www.electricmoto.com/blade.htm They say it runs with 250. Anybody
rode one? They are in Ashland OR. Lawrence Rhodes..........
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Hi-
is that 60mph or 60ft.
F.T.
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> http://www.kelseyville.com/biodsl/bike.htm This is the answer to the what
> if of a 72v Motorcycle. Lawrence Rhodes......
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Hi Folks,
I'm a learner in the ev field so please forgive me if I don't know what im
talking about or simply seem misinformed.
I have always wanted to build a car, but never really got to do more than
customize an existing car.
In my garage I have a Mclaren m6gt replica body shell that looks like its
going to be my first ev car project.
If you don't know what this is you will probably be familiar with the Ion ev
and this is the same as that, full fiberglass body on a space frame.
I have an electric pushbike conversion and an electric motorbike conversion
I have done, so I have a basic grasp of how this all works and what breaks
and what overheats.
My power plant for this looks like its going to come from a Lansing bagnal
toer which is basically a forklift without forks.
Its 48 volts and the panel is rated at 205 amps and assuming the motor can
handle this I calculate from this that I have a motor around 12 horsepower
(allowing a margin for safety on the control panel).
To determine if this was a good unit for a conversion I attached a 2000 kg
load to it and dragged it up the road, it completed this effortlessly,
indicating that if it can pull far more than its going to in a car, that it
will pull the car faster than the 12 kph it currently runs at.
While some of you will have other more efficient means of working this out I
figure, if it can pull 5 times its weight, that this equated to 5 times the
speed at its current weight.
As this unit is designed to run full time for 5 hours from the factory this
would equate roughly to a speed of 60 kph and a range of 300k's.
So here you guys are talking mega amp controllers and ranges between charges
of a fraction of this number so im thinking I have something wrong here with
my math's or my basis.
I decided to approach this from a second angle and measure the draw of
starting accelerating and cruising and my numbers for this are 5, 55 and 30
amps, the original battery pack was rated at 156 amp hours and 30 into 150
goes 5 times, so this still runs for 5 hours and the only thing hanging in
the breeze is just how fast I can make it go pulling the car without
increasing the draw.
This brings me to gearing which most of the electric cars ive come across
don't seem to have, with a petrol engine you use a lot of pedal to get it to
speed and electric cars seem to be set to do this all the time, when, if the
gears are set correctly once speed has been attained, I cant see why the low
draw when this unit is starting can not be used to maintain the speed along
with the lower gear for climbing hills, so the batteries don't get depleted
in a few minutes of hill work.
So if I double my speed I lose half the duration and still end up with
around 250 k's of range, for those of you working in miles that's 50 miles
per hour for 2.5 hours, 150 odd miles per charge still, yet none of you here
are talking this sort of efficiency and to be honest I was expecting to find
that I would get to work which is 25 k's from home and have to charge at
work to get home again.
What am I missing here ? Why does this seem so much better than I expected ?
As I see it the final compromise is the best speed possible for the least
amp draw yet lots of people are talking 1 and 2k amp controllers, does
anyone have a chart that shows the amp draw for a given vehicle weight at
various speeds ?
thanx
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
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