EV Digest 2583
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Air Cooled Controllers
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Current Eliminator News(3 more days)
by "Richard Furniss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) GE "9 motor cooling
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Air Cooled Controllers
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: thoughts and questions
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: GE "9 motor cooling
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Air Cooled Controllers
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re:Charging safety was Recipe for battricide?
by michael bearden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: thoughts and questions
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: thoughts and questions
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Air Cooled Controllers
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Air Cooled Controllers
by Gordon Niessen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re:Charging safety was Recipe for battricide?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re:Charging safety was Recipe for battricide?
by "David McAlister" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: General Battery Concensus
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Air Cooled Controllers
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Nedra in Vegas 2003
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Nedra in Vegas 2003
by "Brian D. Hall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re:Charging safety was Recipe for battricide?
by Jon Knepher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Propulse
by Sam Harper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Air Cooled Controllers
by "BORTEL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
All this talk of the Zilla had me thinking ...
What is available as a 'drop in' for the
air cooled Cursit 1221 (a-z) controller, or
the air cooled Auburn controllers?
Are there any with regen?
Lower powered, lower cost, air cooled controllers would
not hit my pack as hard, I would not be paying for the
power I do not use, and I would not have to be concerned
with any plumbing for liquid cooling.
...
My other thought is what if Otmar made a lower amperage
controller.
Hi Bruce,
I have certainly thought about this a lot. There are a few issues in
what you've said that I'd like to address.
Regen is something I still think about a lot. Unfortunately the ADC
motors many of us use don't handle it well due to voltage limits
inherent in the motor design. It is possible that Kostov motors may
handle it well. I may add a regen option to the Zilla again someday
and try it out on a Kostov. btw, I have made a regen sep ex Zilla
that runs on a modified 9" motor. I'm still not happy that the motor
is rugged enough.
Many people think that lower power makes lower cost, and it does to
some extent, but you'd be surprised how little power affects price in
low volumes. I have reduced the margins on the Z1K down very low and
most of the cost is not in the power silicon. Much of it is setup
charges on the copper, sheet metal and PC boards. If I were to make a
500 amp version of it, that would reduce the cost less than 10%.
The key to getting the price down is raising volume. My goal in
selling the Z1K at such a low margin is to try to bring the volume
up, in the long run the hope is to bring the costs down enough that
it can pay for my labor to build it. If you want a real cheap
controller, just find a way to sell 1000 or more a year and I or
someone else will be happy to find a way to drop the price a bunch.
I don't believe air cooled controllers are inherently lower cost. The
higher heat sink temperatures of air cooled controllers results in
needing either more silicon for a given power level, or having
reduced reliability. Unfortunately, too many of us have experienced
the result of the latter situation. With robust thermal design I see
no reason for controllers to last less than a decade or three.
Water cooled controllers can also be smaller. Off loading the size of
the cooling element makes it easier to fit a controller in the often
tight constraints of a conversion.
Another reason for water cooling is to keep the controller dry.
Sealing a controller against moisture becomes difficult and can be
expensive in low volume. It can be fully potted, but then if it has a
problem it becomes a lump of un-recyclable garbage. This is something
I'm not yet ready to accept. Curtis attempts to seal their
controllers but as many have experienced, the seal is not reliable
and they often fail from moisture inside the case.
One of the advantages of my controllers is the adjustability of them.
If you really want a air cooled 500 Amp controller, its no problem.
Just turn the Z1K down to 500 Amps (or 460, or 510, whatever you
like) and put a fan on the bottom. Just make sure that it stays dry
when it rains.
Ok, back to testing for me. I'm just testing a setting on the
Hairball that allows the tachometer to display motor amps, so 500
amps shows as 5000 rpm. One less gauge to buy and put in the dash.
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ New Zilla controllers, now available.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I find it interesting that while other racers are waiting for better
batteries you seem to have found a way to race where you need >1000 motor
amps and a throttle stop.
There is always a way.
Good luck
www.lasvegasev.com
Richard Furniss
Las Vegas, NV
1986 Mazda EX-7 192v
1981 Lectra Centauri 108v
3 Wheel Trail Master 12v
Board Member, www.lveva.org
Las Vegas Electric Vehicle Association
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 8:26 AM
Subject: Re: Current Eliminator News(3 more days)
> Another weekend at the races,the currenteliminator dragster ran 5 times on
> friday nite at Firebird raceway.ETs were 10.48 10.46 10.431 10.411 an
10.40
> .MPH#s 125 on all but one of the runs.These runs happened in a 90 minute
time
> frame.My charging time between runs using my 15kw3phase Miller welder
genset
> was13minutes.I had both my series charger and my design micro charger
system
> hooked to the car at the same time(micro charger capable of max31amps
> min..01) I am trying to set the car up for bracket racing,so a fast
> turnaround must be practiced.These easy on the battery pack an car runs
were
> with the batts.charged to about 80% capacity.
> DAY TWO Speedworld Motorplex Six more runs with the ETs
> 11.57 to11.63 an still the MPHs at 125.A slow et with hi mph will really
> throw the ICE bracket racers off.My goal 11,80 at 135mph.with a throttle
stop
> at 1100feet for 100feet before the car turns back on til the end of the
qt.
> mile.This will confuse the bumper racers.Charging times were limited to 13
> minutes again.Otmars ZILLA controller ran perfectly with just air
cooling(at
> these easy ets motor amps are less than 1000amps)There are times I may
have
> to wait up to an hour in the stageing lanes without working on the car
thus I
> had to know if the car can be coninsent without ice water cooling.It
Is....I
> do have to work on geting the Ets closer together.
> DAY three NEXT POST
> Dennis KILL A WATT BERUBE Worlds Quickest EV currenteliminator.net
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I got the GE motor back from the motor repair place here in Florida with new
com, and its all back together now ready to got into Paul's car (which has
my kostof in it now) . There's no fan in the motor and has a cowling for a
blower of some sort to go on the out side.
I have a old old Hoover vacuum cleaner that I've stripped out (cut off the
beater bar ect) which has a very nice looking motor (50 or so poles)and puts
out lots of air ,. The motor is not like the newer one but looks like a fine
piece and I've polished up the aluminum so it doesn't look like an old
vacuum cleaner . I tried it out on 156 and it ran fine.
Here is what I'm thinking of right now
1 hook blower to motor with some 3" flex vent pipe and let blower run
whenever key is on . The problem with this is it would be always running
(noise and would drain power all the time, )
2 power blower from motor/controller . this way blower only sees the
voltage that across the GE motor and would be off when not moving . Wouldn't
get a lot of air at slow speeds and this would be quieter and when your
moving the noise won't be so loud.
3 forget the blower altogether , the car has some side scoops and can easily
run 3" flex vent pipe from the sides to the motor.
of course 1 is the safest and 3 is the nicest.
could combine 1and 2 and till people that the air is spinning the blower
which then is powering the big 9' and charging the batteries through the
controller. driving into a strong wind would make the car go faster (that's
a joke , please no flames). I would never say that here in Florida as there
would be a stampede of believers.
When (if ) I cooked it the first time the motor was really not hot (could
put my hand on it) it was the armature that was hot (boiling spit) , Will
try them all and stop and feel for heat . Any thoughts. Thanks
Also when I was putting it together I noticed extra built holes which I
believe were for making it go in the other direction , tried them just to
see and the motor did not run very well or fast ( tested on 12v ) switched
direction and went much better. I an wondering if the lifting of the com bar
was from maybe the motor being set up to run the other way . That first
ride was not so long 10 minutes ))(it was a fast 10 minutes though) if this
was the case it sure ran fast for being set in the wrong direction. .
Steve Clunn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You can also run cold water through a cheap heater core and blow the motor
cooling air through that----something I'm considering for my outboard motor
cooling....
-Myles Twete, Portland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you had 1000 amps at the same voltage what do you think your time would
have been. Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Henry Deaton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 12:52 PM
Subject: Re: thoughts and questions
> I don't know about "most" forklift motors, but I've seen a few that work
> great in EV applications. I used one in my electric dragbike and set a 120
> volt NEDRA record that still stands. And Brian Hall has a little red Honda
> Civic running a forklift motor.
>
> The forklift motor I had in my bike was well made with a nicely balanced
> armature, and it had adjustable brush timing. It was rated at 105 amps and
> 2000 rpm for an hour, 4.5 hp. I ran it at 120 volts on my bike and around
> 400 amps. Based on the acceleration (14.25 seconds, 92mph, and about 550
> lbs total weight) I think I was getting about 35 hp at the rear wheels. It
> was a pretty short duty cycle, though. And, I can't remember what rpm's it
> was turning, but probably not more than about 3000 or 4000.
>
> Henry Deaton
>
>
> At 08:33 AM 2/9/2003 -0800, you wrote:
> >Hi, Garry - and welcome to the list!
> >
> >You've got one little problem in your calculations, and that's called
> >overspeeding the motor. If you can find a transmission with a high enough
> >gear ratio, you will be alright - but most forklift motors aren't made to
> >have a high RPM, and your motor will spontaneously disassemble if you
over
> >speed it.
> >
> >Joseph H. Strubhar
> >
> >E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >Web: www.gremcoinc.com
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 7:21 AM
> >Subject: thoughts and questions
> >
> >
> > > Hi Folks,
> > >
> > > I'm a learner in the ev field so please forgive me if I don't know
what im
> > > talking about or simply seem misinformed.
> > >
> > > I have always wanted to build a car, but never really got to do more
than
> > > customize an existing car.
> > >
> > > In my garage I have a Mclaren m6gt replica body shell that looks like
its
> > > going to be my first ev car project.
> > >
> > > If you don't know what this is you will probably be familiar with the
Ion
> >ev
> > > and this is the same as that, full fiberglass body on a space frame.
> > >
> > > I have an electric pushbike conversion and an electric motorbike
> >conversion
> > > I have done, so I have a basic grasp of how this all works and what
breaks
> > > and what overheats.
> > >
> > > My power plant for this looks like its going to come from a Lansing
bagnal
> > > toer which is basically a forklift without forks.
> > >
> > > Its 48 volts and the panel is rated at 205 amps and assuming the motor
can
> > > handle this I calculate from this that I have a motor around 12
horsepower
> > > (allowing a margin for safety on the control panel).
> > >
> > > To determine if this was a good unit for a conversion I attached a
2000 kg
> > > load to it and dragged it up the road, it completed this effortlessly,
> > > indicating that if it can pull far more than its going to in a car,
that
> >it
> > > will pull the car faster than the 12 kph it currently runs at.
> > >
> > > While some of you will have other more efficient means of working this
out
> >I
> > > figure, if it can pull 5 times its weight, that this equated to 5
times
> >the
> > > speed at its current weight.
> > >
> > > As this unit is designed to run full time for 5 hours from the factory
> >this
> > > would equate roughly to a speed of 60 kph and a range of 300k's.
> > >
> > > So here you guys are talking mega amp controllers and ranges between
> >charges
> > > of a fraction of this number so im thinking I have something wrong
here
> >with
> > > my math's or my basis.
> > >
> > > I decided to approach this from a second angle and measure the draw of
> > > starting accelerating and cruising and my numbers for this are 5, 55
and
> >30
> > > amps, the original battery pack was rated at 156 amp hours and 30 into
150
> > > goes 5 times, so this still runs for 5 hours and the only thing
hanging in
> > > the breeze is just how fast I can make it go pulling the car without
> > > increasing the draw.
> > >
> > > This brings me to gearing which most of the electric cars ive come
across
> > > don't seem to have, with a petrol engine you use a lot of pedal to get
it
> >to
> > > speed and electric cars seem to be set to do this all the time, when,
if
> >the
> > > gears are set correctly once speed has been attained, I cant see why
the
> >low
> > > draw when this unit is starting can not be used to maintain the speed
> >along
> > > with the lower gear for climbing hills, so the batteries don't get
> >depleted
> > > in a few minutes of hill work.
> > >
> > > So if I double my speed I lose half the duration and still end up with
> > > around 250 k's of range, for those of you working in miles that's 50
miles
> > > per hour for 2.5 hours, 150 odd miles per charge still, yet none of
you
> >here
> > > are talking this sort of efficiency and to be honest I was expecting
to
> >find
> > > that I would get to work which is 25 k's from home and have to charge
at
> > > work to get home again.
> > >
> > > What am I missing here ? Why does this seem so much better than I
expected
> >?
> > >
> > > As I see it the final compromise is the best speed possible for the
least
> > > amp draw yet lots of people are talking 1 and 2k amp controllers, does
> > > anyone have a chart that shows the amp draw for a given vehicle weight
at
> > > various speeds ?
> > >
> > > thanx
> > >
> > > Garry Stanley
> > >
> > > Cable.net.nz
> > >
> > >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
4. Put a thermistor on the motor that controlled a PWM controller to control
the fan motor. The hotter the motor gets, the faster the blower runs. I have
this in my car and it works much better than the other three options.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 5:34 PM
Subject: GE "9 motor cooling
> Here is what I'm thinking of right now
> 1 hook blower to motor with some 3" flex vent pipe and let blower run
> whenever key is on . The problem with this is it would be always running
> (noise and would drain power all the time, )
> 2 power blower from motor/controller . this way blower only sees the
> voltage that across the GE motor and would be off when not moving .
Wouldn't
> get a lot of air at slow speeds and this would be quieter and when your
> moving the noise won't be so loud.
> 3 forget the blower altogether , the car has some side scoops and can
easily
> run 3" flex vent pipe from the sides to the motor.
> of course 1 is the safest and 3 is the nicest.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I will bite. Can you descibe your outboard motor project? I am working
on one also.
Seth
Boston(ish), MA
Myles Twete wrote:
>
> You can also run cold water through a cheap heater core and blow the motor
> cooling air through that----something I'm considering for my outboard motor
> cooling....
> -Myles Twete, Portland
--
vze3v25q@verizondotnet
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I want to thank David for his post on this:
A few comments here, and a question:
Comment one: this adaptor is for use where I do not have a 220/240 volt
receptacle available.
In my case, that doesn't mean either home or work-the only places I have needed
to charge-since I do have a 50 amp dedicated circuit in each place.
Comment two- the "significant hazards" would require either a mis-wired
circuit-ie-a hot neutral or ground (which would not operate the charger) or a
wire pulled loose in one of the connectors (which would also not operate the
charger). There is no other way to wind up with a hot neutral or ground since
there is no pathway between the x and y legs of the 240.
If I only have one leg of the 120 plugged in, there is zero voltage across any of
the exposed connections on the second 120v male plug.
Comment three: This adaptor can only be employed by someone who can read and
interpret a voltmeter- otherwise you can't know if you have 2 discrete circuits,
or two receptacles on the same circuit.
Comment four: I can see a very possible hazard in going the other way- that is to
split a 240 supply to create two 120v circuits- because in that case, you have no
true neutral, only the ground for a false neutral. For that, I could certainly
understand this concern.
So the question here, and I ask it respectfully, is, "What have I missed?"
Thank you-
Michael B.
"David Roden (Akron OH USA)" wrote:
> On 7 Feb 2003 at 19:49, michael bearden wrote:
>
> > I have made an adaptor to take two discrete
> > circuits and power the Zivan, and it seems to accept that just fine, as long
> > as the voltage is correct.
>
> Time for a note from the AESN (annoying electrical safety nag).
>
> There are some significant hazards in using these adapters. Please install
> a proper 240 volt receptacle for your charger and destroy the adapter.
>
> If you feel you must use it, please don't use it in public, and definitely
> don't ever use it when small children are around. If a kid should pull one
> of the 120 volt plugs out, either accidentally or out of curiosity,
> dangerous voltage (120 volts to ground) would be present on one of its pins.
> You'd feel pretty bad if that happened -- especially if it were your kid.
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
> switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
> thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Folks,
Thank you all very much for your replies, I knew I would be missing
something and of course its drag coefficient.
As you will see by the picture on this link the car doesn't present any real
frontal area, so I expect the drag on this is going to be relatively low
http://www.bruce-mclaren.com/cars/mclaren_m6gt.htm
The full height of this car is 39 inches, so again this looks to be a good
choice of car for electric.
I would like to have the entire pre battery weight down to 500 kg or around
1000 pounds and since these cars with a 350 chev in them weigh in at around
1000 kg I suspect this is achievable.
At this point I have used 4 car batteries to test this unit and while a drew
them flat once to see how long it would run, because "car type" batteries no
longer come with an amp hour rating on them, I had to know what the draw was
and see how long they ran to figure out what the amp hour rating was.
They turned out to be 60 amp hours as predicted.
Toward the end of the test I figured out that the brakes were binding and
once freed, the draw dropped to 30 amps cruising from 55.
I don't know what you guys pay for batteries, but here a semi deep cycle
battery would set me back $200 and that would be 6 volts 60 amp hours and I
would need 8 of these just to run it, while the 12 volt 60 amp hour car
batteries cost only $60.
They weigh in at only 13kg and using these a set of 12 equaling 180 amp
hours would weigh in at around 156 kg, as against the original pack that
weighed 480kg for 156 amp hours.
Now I totally realize that this is going to sound stupid to even suggest
using standard car batteries, but looking at it from my inexperienced point
of view I cant see why it isn't possible.
Clearly I can never allow these batteries to totally discharge without
seriously shortening the life of them or maybe even killing them, but as I
see it if I add another 4 batteries for 16, which is only the weight of 2
adults in the car I get to 240 amps and because im only using 48 volt sets o
f 4 I could either draw from the whole pack or draw from sets of 4 and then
swap to another set as each set reaches its failsafe point.
We know that batteries recover a little if you give them a break, so this
way they could even be rotated on a time basis during the trip so that no
set was drawn from for more than 5 minutes before being given a break to
recover.
I doubt that you can see it in the picture, but this car has a huge flattish
area in the rear which I am planning to eventually fill up with solar cells
to at least put a bit back into the batteries during the day for "free".
Additionally I am thinking of a small motor scooter petrol motor for
emergency charging, which could double as a heat source on those cold days,
so if this was running and charging the pack that had just run the car for 5
minutes im thinking that I just might get a decent run out of some very
cheap batteries not to mention that the semi deep cycle set has 2 to make 12
volts and they weigh more than a single 12 volt battery, so a better than
50% weight saving per 12 volt supply for the same, even if not totally
usable, amp hour rating.
My guess is that I would never be able to draw more than 50% of the
available amp hour rating safely and this would mean that if I base my
entire setup around this I would never be caught without any power because I
would always have a 50% emergency supply.
I don't expect my car will spin the wheels but the toer sure does, when I
first unloaded it one of the rear wheels was locked and the other one spun
well when I was cheating and trying to use its own power to free it instead
of getting a into g and pulling the hub to sort it :).
At this point I had 2 good batteries and 2 flat ones that I gave 10 minutes
each on a 20 amp charger.
My daily drive is 25 kilometers 10 at 50 kph (30 mph) and 15 at 100 kph (50
mph), so I can see that allowing for drag coefficient here at the greater
speed and the numbers supplied by lee hart for a similar sized vehicle that
I will probably be looking at recharging at work like a lot of other people
seem to be doing.
Due to the fact that the controller is rated at 48 volts I don't plan on
over powering it at this stage because I really cant afford to replace it if
it stopped working, so im not planning on over voltage running and with any
luck I wont get into over amperage on it either, so this should preclude
over revving the motor cause I cant afford to replace it either.
I figure that if I need to allow for a short burst of speed that a car
starter motor could be added to the system for this and this would eliminate
the load on the controller and the motor, even though it probably wouldn't
do the batteries any good.
I hope that somewhere in my ramblings here I have answered the questions
asked from my original post and again thank you all for pointing out my
failure to allow for drag.
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi again,
Thinking about this, one more thing has changed since I decided to go
electric on this car and that is with the front height restriction I could
never have considered front wheel drive on this and these types of cars are
notorious for being a bit light on the front, so is there any problems I am
likely to run into with front wheel drive electric as against rear wheel
drive.
If the motor is up front and all the batteries go in the center this could
handle very well im thinking ?
thanx
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Okay-
Here's a quick rundown:
Before---
BOAT: 26foot wooden boat --- "The Reach of Tide"
http://home.teleport.com/~mylest/reach/reach01.jpg
the boat's builder and author of the book which boasts its name:
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/press/tide.html
MOTOR:
Early 1980's 25Hp, 2-stroke Tohatsu
Noisy as all hell...
After---
Same Boat
Motor:
Same Tohatsu w/o Powerhead
Powerhead replaced w/AC4-4002 Tropica ADC motor
Quiet...quiet....quiet...
Controller:
Initially, EZ-GO Curtis 1206 36v, 275Amp,
w/ITS (Inductive Throttle Control)
Batteries:
Initially, 6 Trojan T105s
Charger:
Initially, a used Lester
PLAN:
Get DC motor mounted to Tohatsu lower unit.
Bring motor, batteries, controller, etc. to boat, install.
Instrument with tach, current/voltage and low-speed water speed meters
Take data with this setup----both qualitative and quantitative---will I
even get near hull speed with only 36volts? Who knows? I don't
have specs for the Tropica ADC motor, nor do I know what torque
I need at 4000rpm to keep boat going....
Decision point---after the testing, I'll know whether this is all wishful
thinking---i.e. maybe the power required to cruise will be so high
and would require too many batteries to cruise for any given time.
Maybe I'll need 48v or 72v...and another controller....and charger.
Maybe the motor won't like running steady at 4000-4500rpm...
Well that's it for now...pictures later.
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Behalf Of Seth
Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 4:53 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Air Cooled Controllers
I will bite. Can you descibe your outboard motor project? I am working
on one also.
Seth
Boston(ish), MA
Myles Twete wrote:
>
> You can also run cold water through a cheap heater core and blow the motor
> cooling air through that----something I'm considering for my outboard
motor
> cooling....
> -Myles Twete, Portland
--
vze3v25q@verizondotnet
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wide upper deck looks like a great place for PV panels.
At 08:59 PM 2/9/2003, you wrote:
Okay-
Here's a quick rundown:
Before---
BOAT: 26foot wooden boat --- "The Reach of Tide"
http://home.teleport.com/~mylest/reach/reach01.jpg
the boat's builder and author of the book which boasts its name:
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/press/tide.html
MOTOR:
Early 1980's 25Hp, 2-stroke Tohatsu
Noisy as all hell...
After---
Same Boat
Motor:
Same Tohatsu w/o Powerhead
Powerhead replaced w/AC4-4002 Tropica ADC motor
Quiet...quiet....quiet...
Controller:
Initially, EZ-GO Curtis 1206 36v, 275Amp,
w/ITS (Inductive Throttle Control)
Batteries:
Initially, 6 Trojan T105s
Charger:
Initially, a used Lester
PLAN:
Get DC motor mounted to Tohatsu lower unit.
Bring motor, batteries, controller, etc. to boat, install.
Instrument with tach, current/voltage and low-speed water speed
meters
Take data with this setup----both qualitative and
quantitative---will I
even get near hull speed with only 36volts? Who
knows? I don't
have specs for the Tropica ADC motor, nor do I know what
torque
I need at 4000rpm to keep boat going....
Decision point---after the testing, I'll know whether this is all
wishful
thinking---i.e. maybe the power required to cruise will
be so high
and would require too many batteries to cruise for any
given time.
Maybe I'll need 48v or 72v...and another
controller....and charger.
Maybe the motor won't like running steady at 4000-4500rpm...
Well that's it for now...pictures later.
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Behalf Of Seth
Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 4:53 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Air Cooled Controllers
I will bite. Can you descibe your outboard motor project? I am working
on one also.
Seth
Boston(ish), MA
Myles Twete wrote:
>
> You can also run cold water through a cheap heater core and blow the motor
> cooling air through that----something I'm considering for my outboard
motor
> cooling....
> -Myles Twete, Portland
--
vze3v25q@verizondotnet
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How do you hook your 240 VAC load into two 120 VAC outlets? If you use two
plugs, there is a problem.
If the load is connected from the X hot to the Y hot, then when you pull out
one 120 VAC plug, you have the load connected from the other hot to the hot
pin of the plug you just pulled out.
If the charger is turned on (though not powered) the voltage is zero across
the charger putting 120 VAC from the other leg on the hot pin of the plug
you just pulled out. If someone handles this plug, the voltage of the pin in
hot relative to ground and can shock someone.
I have struggled with a solution to this problem and have not figured out a
way to eliminate this problem short of converting both sides of the 240 line
to DC and then using the DC to run (or enable) the charger.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "michael bearden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 6:15 PM
Subject: Re:Charging safety was Recipe for battricide?
> I want to thank David for his post on this:
> A few comments here, and a question:
> Comment one: this adaptor is for use where I do not have a 220/240 volt
> receptacle available.
> In my case, that doesn't mean either home or work-the only places I have
needed
> to charge-since I do have a 50 amp dedicated circuit in each place.
> Comment two- the "significant hazards" would require either a mis-wired
> circuit-ie-a hot neutral or ground (which would not operate the charger)
or a
> wire pulled loose in one of the connectors (which would also not operate
the
> charger). There is no other way to wind up with a hot neutral or ground
since
> there is no pathway between the x and y legs of the 240.
> If I only have one leg of the 120 plugged in, there is zero voltage across
any of
> the exposed connections on the second 120v male plug.
> Comment three: This adaptor can only be employed by someone who can read
and
> interpret a voltmeter- otherwise you can't know if you have 2 discrete
circuits,
> or two receptacles on the same circuit.
> Comment four: I can see a very possible hazard in going the other way-
that is to
> split a 240 supply to create two 120v circuits- because in that case, you
have no
> true neutral, only the ground for a false neutral. For that, I could
certainly
> understand this concern.
> So the question here, and I ask it respectfully, is, "What have I missed?"
> Thank you-
> Michael B.
>
> "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" wrote:
>
> > On 7 Feb 2003 at 19:49, michael bearden wrote:
> >
> > > I have made an adaptor to take two discrete
> > > circuits and power the Zivan, and it seems to accept that just fine,
as long
> > > as the voltage is correct.
> >
> > Time for a note from the AESN (annoying electrical safety nag).
> >
> > There are some significant hazards in using these adapters. Please
install
> > a proper 240 volt receptacle for your charger and destroy the adapter.
> >
> > If you feel you must use it, please don't use it in public, and
definitely
> > don't ever use it when small children are around. If a kid should pull
one
> > of the 120 volt plugs out, either accidentally or out of curiosity,
> > dangerous voltage (120 volts to ground) would be present on one of its
pins.
> > You'd feel pretty bad if that happened -- especially if it were your
kid.
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
> > switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> > 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> > 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> > 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> > 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
> > thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<snip>
> So the question here, and I ask it respectfully, is, "What have I missed?"
> Thank you-
> Michael B.
If the input to the charger is a transformer, the unplugged hot leg will
have 120 V to ground from the other hot leg through the transformer primary.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There is an archive of previously posted information at
http://geocities.com/brucedp/evbatt.html
It is worth a look at what has been discussed and saved about this subject.
Thanks Bruce for putting this page together.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Harper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 10:41 AM
Subject: General Battery Concensus
> I'd like to get everyones feedback and corrections to my views on the
> current state of battery technology, including (but not limited to) the
> following categories:
> -Lead Acid : A good staple battery. Proven to provide adequate
> service, though it does not have a high capacity
> -Optima Yellow Top : A step up from the lead acid. Providing more
> reliable, easier to care for service, though also lacking in the
> capacity.
> -Ni-Cad : A step up from the Yellow Top offering a higher-capacity but
> less environmentally friendly, harder to dispose of, and harder to
> charge. Not widely available, and may require special watering systems.
> -NiMH : Another step up from Ni-Cad, offering easier to maintain packs,
> but not available. Higher capacity.
> -Evercell : I am unsure of its capacity in relation to Ni-Cad, and
> NiMH, but I believe it is higher than the Yellow Top. No proven
> track-record, but could be a good Lead Acid replacement. More
> expensive.
> -Li-Ion : Just recently available in a size needed by EVs (one example
> being Thunder Sky). No proven track record. Has the highest capacity.
> VERY Expensive.
>
> Please add, modify, and delete from this list. Thanks! I appreciate
> the help as I learn more about this field.
>
> -Sam
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yeah, Gordon-
Phase 3 will look at adding solar panels...yes, lots of roof to put solar
panels on---even more if I add a thin solid mahogany plywood bimini over the
rear seating area---perhaps 7'x8'----this area could accomodate as much as
700watts of panels alone---I'd remove all panel frames and epoxy thin panels
into place...
Being a flat-bottom boat, there's lots of room for batteries and weight can
be accomodated, but it'd be neat to go for the best batteries
available---I'm thinking Evercells----anyone out there able to get these
puppies?
-Myles
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Behalf Of Gordon Niessen
Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 7:18 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Air Cooled Controllers
Wide upper deck looks like a great place for PV panels.
At 08:59 PM 2/9/2003, you wrote:
>Okay-
>Here's a quick rundown:
>
>Before---
> BOAT: 26foot wooden boat --- "The Reach of Tide"
> http://home.teleport.com/~mylest/reach/reach01.jpg
> the boat's builder and author of the book which boasts its name:
> http://oregonstate.edu/dept/press/tide.html
> MOTOR:
> Early 1980's 25Hp, 2-stroke Tohatsu
> Noisy as all hell...
>
>After---
> Same Boat
> Motor:
> Same Tohatsu w/o Powerhead
> Powerhead replaced w/AC4-4002 Tropica ADC motor
> Quiet...quiet....quiet...
>
> Controller:
> Initially, EZ-GO Curtis 1206 36v, 275Amp,
> w/ITS (Inductive Throttle Control)
> Batteries:
> Initially, 6 Trojan T105s
> Charger:
> Initially, a used Lester
>
>PLAN:
> Get DC motor mounted to Tohatsu lower unit.
> Bring motor, batteries, controller, etc. to boat, install.
> Instrument with tach, current/voltage and low-speed water speed
> meters
> Take data with this setup----both qualitative and
> quantitative---will I
> even get near hull speed with only 36volts? Who
> knows? I don't
> have specs for the Tropica ADC motor, nor do I know what
> torque
> I need at 4000rpm to keep boat going....
> Decision point---after the testing, I'll know whether this is all
> wishful
> thinking---i.e. maybe the power required to cruise will
> be so high
> and would require too many batteries to cruise for any
> given time.
> Maybe I'll need 48v or 72v...and another
> controller....and charger.
> Maybe the motor won't like running steady at
4000-4500rpm...
>
>Well that's it for now...pictures later.
>
>-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
>Behalf Of Seth
>Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 4:53 PM
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: Air Cooled Controllers
>
>
>I will bite. Can you descibe your outboard motor project? I am working
>on one also.
>
>Seth
>
>Boston(ish), MA
>
>
>
>Myles Twete wrote:
> >
> > You can also run cold water through a cheap heater core and blow the
motor
> > cooling air through that----something I'm considering for my outboard
>motor
> > cooling....
> > -Myles Twete, Portland
>
>--
>vze3v25q@verizondotnet
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's entirely possible to have a NEDRA Event at Seattle Pacific Raceways,
or even my own Back yard of Bremerton.
I think we are having issues with Woodburn.
Of course Rod, Me and Father Time and crew would LOVE to have the event up
here. Nuthin' like racing at our home track
"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" wrote:
> At 06:06 PM 2/7/03, you wrote:
>
> >Who is going (besides Richard Furniss)?
>
> I plan to be there with the bike.
>
> >I was thinking of flying out to check out the action.
> >
> >Also, will there be a Woodburn event in 2003?
>
> It may, or may not, be at Woodburn, but there will be a NEDRA
> event at that time of year and on the West coast. Nothing is firm quite
> yet. It will be shortly. We're working on it.
>
> _ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
> \'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> =(___)=
> U
> Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
ThunderStruck Motors will be there. Race set for April 26,2003 in Las Vegas.
Rumor has it that the Woodburn event might be moved to Seattle this year,
But a big event is being planned in Northern California, Bibendum ??at
Infineon raceway, check out www.challengebibendum.com.
Brian
>
> Who is going (besides Richard Furniss)?
>
> I was thinking of flying out to check out the action.
>
> Also, will there be a Woodburn event in 2003?
>
>
>
> Seth
> --
> vze3v25q@verizondotnet
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> ----- Message from [EMAIL PROTECTED] ---------
> I have struggled with a solution to this problem and have not figured out a
> way to eliminate this problem short of converting both sides of the 240 line
> to DC and then using the DC to run (or enable) the charger.
I use a modified avcon powerpack. I have a series of relays that trigger the
charger enable pin in the powerpack. The relays detect proper X1-N1, Y2-
N2, X1-Y2, and no N1-N2 voltage, and if all is correct, then the GFCI is
enabled and the main contactor closes when charge is requested. If any pin has
the wrong voltage, the
GFCI is disabled and the contactor opens. The arrangement of the relays
prevents X1-Y2 leakage/continuity when there is no X1-N1 or Y2-N2 voltage (plug
pulled out).
There is a little time for the contactor to open that could be dangerous, but I
feel it is safe enough for me to use when it is supervised. That being said, I
still check everything with a voltmeter first, and prefer to use a real 240
outlet. For the used (not just sense) ground and neutral, only one side (N1,
G1) is used to prevent neutral and ground currents from flowing through the
box. (The avcon box insists on having a neutral - its brains run on 120vac.)
Jon
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What ever happened to AC drive manufacturer Propulse?
-Sam Harper
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That looks like a really nice wooden boat. I hope you have something in mind
to keep battery contents from getting to the wood.
Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 6:59 PM
Subject: RE: Air Cooled Controllers
> Okay-
> Here's a quick rundown:
>
> Before---
> BOAT: 26foot wooden boat --- "The Reach of Tide"
> http://home.teleport.com/~mylest/reach/reach01.jpg
> the boat's builder and author of the book which boasts its name:
> http://oregonstate.edu/dept/press/tide.html
> MOTOR:
> Early 1980's 25Hp, 2-stroke Tohatsu
> Noisy as all hell...
>
> After---
> Same Boat
> Motor:
> Same Tohatsu w/o Powerhead
> Powerhead replaced w/AC4-4002 Tropica ADC motor
> Quiet...quiet....quiet...
>
> Controller:
> Initially, EZ-GO Curtis 1206 36v, 275Amp,
> w/ITS (Inductive Throttle Control)
> Batteries:
> Initially, 6 Trojan T105s
> Charger:
> Initially, a used Lester
>
> PLAN:
> Get DC motor mounted to Tohatsu lower unit.
> Bring motor, batteries, controller, etc. to boat, install.
> Instrument with tach, current/voltage and low-speed water speed meters
> Take data with this setup----both qualitative and quantitative---will I
> even get near hull speed with only 36volts? Who knows? I don't
> have specs for the Tropica ADC motor, nor do I know what torque
> I need at 4000rpm to keep boat going....
> Decision point---after the testing, I'll know whether this is all wishful
> thinking---i.e. maybe the power required to cruise will be so high
> and would require too many batteries to cruise for any given time.
> Maybe I'll need 48v or 72v...and another controller....and charger.
> Maybe the motor won't like running steady at 4000-4500rpm...
>
> Well that's it for now...pictures later.
>
> -Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
> Behalf Of Seth
> Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 4:53 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Air Cooled Controllers
>
>
> I will bite. Can you descibe your outboard motor project? I am working
> on one also.
>
> Seth
>
> Boston(ish), MA
>
>
>
> Myles Twete wrote:
> >
> > You can also run cold water through a cheap heater core and blow the
motor
> > cooling air through that----something I'm considering for my outboard
> motor
> > cooling....
> > -Myles Twete, Portland
>
> --
> vze3v25q@verizondotnet
>
--- End Message ---
