EV Digest 2584
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re:Charging safety
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Motors and Engines (was: introduction)
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) EAA National Meeting Sat Feb 2/15 10 am pst, tel & webcam access
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) New battery? Lead acid temperature-capacity chart.
by Martin Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: New battery? Lead acid temperature-capacity chart.
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) source for 1/0 shielded wire
by "Cliff Rassweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) "No Stinkin Pistons" T-Shirts now available (blatant add)
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Measuring Current
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Tom Swift and his Electric Runabout
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Tom Swift and his Electric Runabout
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) High Voltag Contactors
by Seth Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: source for 1/0 shielded wire
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: High Voltag Contactors
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: High Voltag Contactors
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: source for 1/0 shielded wire
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Tour de Sol News ...
by M Bianchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: High Voltag Contactors
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: source for 1/0 shielded wire
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Current Eliminator News(3 more days)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
20) Re: source for 1/0 shielded wire
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: source for 1/0 shielded wire
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Best source for Optimas?
by Alec Proudfoot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: source for 1/0 shielded wire
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: source for 1/0 shielded wire
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: source for 1/0 shielded wire
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: High Voltag Contactors
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
27) Re: General Battery Concensus
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Propulse
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: High Voltage Contactors
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Re: High Voltag Contactors
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On 9 Feb 2003 at 18:15, michael bearden wrote:
> this adaptor is for use where I do not have a 220/240 volt
> receptacle available.
I think either a step-up transformer or a dual-voltage charger would be
safer. The former would be heavy, though, and the latter would cost extra.
> If I only have one
> leg of the 120 plugged in, there is zero voltage across any of the exposed
> connections on the second 120v male plug.
The charger is an open circuit? As I see it, that would have to be the case
for this to be true.
Suppose the charger is connected to the adapter, and one hot leg is plugged
in and the other is not. Current will flow from the connected plug, through
the charger, to the disconnected plug, through a person picking up that plug
and contacting the hot pin, and on to ground. That person could be injured
for obvious reasons. If it's a small child or someone infirm, or water is
about, electrocution becomes more likely.
Or am ^I^ missing something?
> This adaptor can only
> be employed by someone who can read and interpret a voltmeter-
> otherwise you
> can't know if you have 2 discrete circuits, or two receptacles
> on the same circuit.
Or someone willing to experiment, plugging them into various receptacles
until it works.
> I can see a very possible hazard in going the other
> way- that is to split a 240 supply to create two 120v circuits-
> because in that case, you have no true neutral, only the
> ground for a false neutral.
Absolutely true if your 240v has no neutral. However, most range and dryer
receptacles do have a neutral. That said, remember that their overcurrent
protection is suited to 30 or 50 amp loads, not to smaller ones.
Please forgive me: Rationalize all you want; that doesn't make this adapter
safe!
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 7 Feb 2003 at 20:10, Humphrey, Timothy wrote:
> stop calling engines motors, especially on THIS list.
Should we rename BMW "Bavarian Engine Works"? Must we stop talking about
motorcars and call them enginecars? <g>
Although the common use is for motors to be electric and engines to use some
kind of burnable fuel, the real definitions are much looser. At
yourdictionary.com (since I'm too lazy to walk into the other room for the
Funk and Wagnalls) I find for "motor":
Definition #1: "Something, such as a machine or an engine, that produces or
imparts motion."
Definition #2: A device that converts any form of energy into mechanical
energy, especially an internal-combustion engine or an arrangement of coils
and magnets that converts electric current into mechanical power.
I really like #3: A motor vehicle, especially an automobile: "It was a
night of lovers. All along the highway ... motors were parked and dim
figures were clasped in revery" (Sinclair Lewis).
Here is the definition of "engine":
1. a. A machine that converts energy into mechanical force or motion.
1. b. Such a machine distinguished from an electric, spring-driven, or
hydraulic motor by its use of a fuel.
2. a. A mechanical appliance, instrument, or tool: engines of war.
2. b. An agent, instrument, or means of accomplishment.
So, it's prefectly reasonable to refer to that monster under the hood of
your gasser as a motor. Most people will understand what you mean.
You probably wouldn't want to call your EV's motor an engine. Although in
the most fundamental sense it's not really incorrect, unlike the above, it
tends to confuse the listener.
David Roden
Akron, Ohio, USA
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
The question can arise whether with the development of such tech-
nological means of communication as radio, film, and the daily
press, freedom of thought is possible at all. Does this not mean
constant infection with whatever ideas are in circulation?
-- Czeslaw Milosz, 1942
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
-
The Annual National EAA meeting is being held at the Silicon
Valley EAA Chapter http://eaasv.org on Sat. Feb.15 from 10am
to 12noon PST (in Palo Alto, CA - near San Francisco).
EAA members who can not physically attend may want to use the
two methods to access the meeting. An 800 telephone number has
been set up for members to 'listen in' (see http://eaaev.org
for details).
The other method is a Yahoo Instant Messenger (YIM)
conference. This will be a voice enabled conference that will
allow you to 'listen in and view the Live Webcam' via your
internet connection (see http://eaaev.org for details).
-
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I had some trouble getting the brochure data and text from:
http://www.trojanbattery.com/images/vrlasupergel.pdf
saved in my computer. Having converted the typing into text, here is
the material. I also saved the graphs as .gif's (Thanks Oatmar)
I will honor some requests directed to me (not the list) in a day or
two.....Martin
"SUPERGEL CYCLING SERIES
AFTER 75 YEARS, THINGS HAVE REALLY STARTED TO GEL AROUND HERE.
Building a great Gel battery is no slam-dunk. If it were, there would
be dozens of great ones already out there. But our engineers, product
designers and operations people were up to the task after they
understood and addressed the seven deadly sins of existing gel products.
1) Premature battery dryout. Too many gel batteries died young. We
addressed the problem with a variety of solutions. We added an epoxy
post seal to prevent gas leakage. We included a pressure relief
valve for each individual cell to prevent capacity imbalances
between cells. And we utilized a polypropylene heat-sealed container
and cover for minimum water and gas transmission.
2) End wall expansion. End walls expanded and weakened because they
were too thin. Solution?
Reinforced, extra thick end wall construction.
3) Thermal management. Heat can generate faster than it's dissipated.
This can cause the case to melt, rupture or worse. Our proprietary
Gel formulation provides more efficient heat transfer and lessens
the danger of thermal runaway.
4) Stratification. Some VRLA designs suffer from stratification of the
electrolyte. Our specially formulated gelled electrolyte will not
stratify.
5) Short cycle life. Not all pastes are created equal. Our proprietary
Alpha Plus paste formula is proven in extending the life of the positive
plate and the life of the battery.
6) Terminal corrosion. A corroded terminal puts your power system at
risk. We solved the problem with our epoxy post seal combined with
our unique low resistance terminal design.
7) Grid corrosion. This is one of the more common causes of battery
failure. Overcharged grids deteriorate. Our proprietary alloy
minimizes grid corrosion and maximizes conductivity between the grid
and active material.
If you've been looking for the best Gel battery available,
congratulations. You've found it. The SUPERGEL CYCLING SERIES from
Trojan. Proprietary alloy for greater cycle life.
Enhanced plated design for longer run time. Advanced Gel Technology for
improved thermal management. And acclaimed Alpha Plus paste for better
performance. It's everything you've always wanted, but didn't know who
to ask or where to look.
Trojan New "SuperGel Cycling" battery series
Specifications @ 80 deg. F (27 deg. C)
TYPE SG-30 SG-50 SG-70 SG-90
BCI group U1 22NF 24 27
Reserve Min. @ 5 AMPS 315 582 860 1012
8 AMPS 189 346 504 600
15 AMPS 95 172 246 299
25 AMPS 50 96 138 169
50 AMPS 21 39 57 71
75 AMPS 12 23 33 42
Discharge Amps 5 MIN 150.9 240.7 311.5 388.9
to End Voltage 10 MIN 87.9 141.5 185.2 227.5
15 MIN 64.1 103.7 136.7 166.2
20 MIN 51.2 83.2 110.1 133
30 MIN 37.3 61 81.3 97.2
60 MIN 21.7 35.9 48.3 56.9
90 MIN 15.8 26.3 35.7 41.5
3 HR 8.4 14.4 19.8 23.7
6 HR 4.4 7.7 10.7 12.7
8 HR 3.4 6 8.3 9.8
20 HR 1.5 2.6 3.7 4.3
24 HR 1.3 2.2 3.2 3.6
48 HR 0.6 1.2 1.7 2
100 HR 0.3 0.6 0.8 1
Amp hr. 1 hr. RATE 22 36 48 57
capacity 3 hr. RATE 25 43 59 71
5 hr. RATE note 3 27 47 65 77
20 hr. RATE 30 52 75 86
WEIGHT LBS 23 38 52 61
(KG) 10 17 24 28
Dimensions LENGTH IN 7_5/8 9_1/16 11_3/16 13_1/16
(MM) 194 230 284 332
WIDTH IN 5 3/16 5 7/16 6 11/16 6 11/16
(MM) 132 138 170 170
HEIGHT IN note 2 7 9 9 9
(MM) 178 229 229 229
TERMINAL note 1 B or LT B or LT B or LT B or LT
HANDLE Std. Std. Std. Std.
Notes:
1) Terminal Codes: B=Button or LT=LT; Both terminal types include
connector bolt.
2) Height dimensions are for LT terminals, button terminals will reduce
battery height 3 /4" (19mm).
3) 5 hour rate is based on IEC (International Electrotechnical
Commission) temperature standard of 30�C (86�F). Note: The torque
specification for connection hardware for the button terminal is
90-100 in-lbs. Product is a UL recognized component. Product is
nonspillable by DOT (Department of Transportation), ICAO
(International Commercial Airline Organization) and IATA
(International Airline Transport Association) definitions.
Charging voltage: 13.8 V to 14.1 V @ 68�F (20�C)
ORDERING INFORMATION: When ordering SUPERGEL batteries, please designate
terminal information:
EXAMPLE: To order the SG-50 with button terminal, the part number would
be: SG-50BH
To order the SG-70 with LT terminal, the part number would be: SG-70LTH"
______________________________________________________________________
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I had some trouble getting the brochure data and text from:
http://www.trojanbattery.com/images/vrlasupergel.pdf
saved in my computer. Having converted the typing into text, here is
the material. I also saved the graphs as .gif's (Thanks Oatmar)
I will honor some requests directed to me (not the list) in a day or
two.....Martin
These have been available for at least a little while. They are
listed on the Trojan site, anyway. They are interesting looking
batteries.
--
___________________________________________________
Michael Hurley Digital Print Specialist
AlphaGraphics, Inc. (901) 681-9909
1195 Ridgeway Rd. (901) 761-2139 FAX
Memphis, TN 38119 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I need to extend the cables from a Siemen's AC motor to the controller. The
cables look like about 1/0 or 2/0 but are unusual in that they are shielded
and grounded to the case of the motor. Does anybody know a place that I can
order 25 feet of shielded 1/0 cable?
Thanks
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All,
Warning, blatant advertisement ahead. The long awaited "No Stinkin
Pistons" T-Shirts have finally arrived at EV Parts Inc. These shirts were
designed by world class automotive cartoonist Chip Gribben from our very own
EV List. The front depicts the "Maniac Mazda" in one of it's famous launches
along with the statement: "Pistons, Pistons, We Don't Need No Stinkin
Pistons". These T-Shirts are sure to strike up an EV conversation or maybe
a heated argument when encountering someone with somewhat diminished brain
capacity who has a hard time fathoming that an electric street bodied car is
quicker than any production car in the world. They come in either a
gray-blue or sand color. They can be viewed by clicking on T-Shirts under
any of our stores or this direct link to a sand colored one:
http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=746&product_id=3430
Roderick
Roderick Wilde, President, EV Parts Inc.
Your Online EV Superstore
www.evparts.com
1-888-EV Parts (387-2787)
Phone: 360-385-7966 Fax: 360-385-7922
PO Box 221, 107 Louisa Street
Port Townsend, WA 98368
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I used a BBP-300H (about$50)for 300A battery measurement into the uP
(MC68HC908JL3 flash or ye-ol MC68HC705P6). The hall effect doughnut by F.W.
Bell was from Allied Electronics. I also calculate %charge, KWH used. The
BB-25 (about $25) (25amps) is used for the PFC charger. Three
microcontrollers are used for the jeep, charging, speed control and battery
scanner.
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 11:27 AM
Subject: Re: Measuring Current
> Hi Ken,
> Where can those Honeywell dc current sensors and electronics be procured
> ?
> How much would they cost ?
> How accurate is the equipment ?
> What is the max current this equipment can measure ?
> What are the part numbers of thes equipment ?
> Sounds like alot lighter then using three large heavy bulky brass shunts
> :-).
> Thanks.
> Menlo Park III,
> Bill, Glastonbury, CT
>
>
>
> On Sat, 08 Feb 2003 22:14:43 -0800 Ken Lange <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > I've been using dc current sensors from Honeywell
> > in my car. I have one to sense the battery current,
> > one for the motor current, and a third to sense the
> > charging current. They have worked well for the 3
> > years I've been driving the car. They are small and
> > require no connections to the battery pack; thus
> > they give you complete isolation. The downside
> > is that they require some extra electronics to
> > process the signals. I use the signals to drive
> > gauges on the dash as well as the emeter.
> >
> > The Zivan battery smoother also uses the
> > Honeywell current sensor.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Ken
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
> Only $9.95 per month!
> Visit www.juno.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 9 Feb 2003 at 10:37, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> http://www.mastertexts.com/Appleton_Victor/Tom_Swift_and_his_Electric_Runabo
> ut/Chapter00003.htm
> Lawrence Rhodes........
>
It returns 404 for me ...
"File not found!
The file you requested does not exist. "
David Roden
Akron OH USA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You need to string the entire URL together.
Copy the two line into notepad; then delete the missing spaces and return
between the two lines. Cut and paste into your Browser. Worked for me.
-Ed T
-----Original Message-----
From: David Roden (Akron OH USA) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 1:43 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Tom Swift and his Electric Runabout
On 9 Feb 2003 at 10:37, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>
http://www.mastertexts.com/Appleton_Victor/Tom_Swift_and_his_Electric_Runabo
> ut/Chapter00003.htm
> Lawrence Rhodes........
>
It returns 404 for me ...
"File not found!
The file you requested does not exist. "
David Roden
Akron OH USA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All -
I'm finally getting to work on my second conversion, so once again I
have a few things to ask the list (more eventually). First up: What
contactor(s) should I use for my 192 volt system? A standard Allbright
SW200 is not rated for the voltage, although I believe it is robust
enough to handle the current. I have heard bad things about the
Kilovac contactors welding shut under relatively light loads. I know
that Rod Wilde used a beefed up Allbright in the Maniac Mazda (I
believe he had stronger anti-arc magnets or something like that) which
would be more than enough for use in my car. Anyone have any thoughts?
Seth
--
QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION
http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/387.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cliff Rassweiler wrote:
> I need to extend the cables from a Siemen's AC motor to the
> controller. The cables look like about 1/0 or 2/0 but are unusual
> in that they are shielded and grounded to the case of the motor.
> Does anybody know a place that I can order 25 feet of shielded
> 1/0 cable?
They sell it for high powered RF transmitter work, but you won't like
the prices!
If I were you, I'd use regular 1/0 cable, and add my own shield. You can
buy the expandable braid in just about any width and length at
reasonable prices.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seth Murray wrote:
> What contactor(s) should I use for my 192 volt system? A standard
> Allbright SW200 is not rated for the voltage, although I believe it
> is robust enough to handle the current... Anyone have any thoughts?
I'd use two Albrights in series (or a double-pole with the poles in
series).
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>
> Seth Murray wrote:
> > What contactor(s) should I use for my 192 volt system? A standard
> > Allbright SW200 is not rated for the voltage, although I believe it
> > is robust enough to handle the current... Anyone have any thoughts?
>
> I'd use two Albrights in series (or a double-pole with the poles in
> series).
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
I would use KilaVac Czonkas or Bubbas fron Rod at EVpart.com
Kilavac also has stuff at higher than 320 VDC, but you have to dig it
out of their Website or catalogs.
I would NOT use Albrights at greater than 156 VDC.
If I was a Nedra Tech inspector... You would have speced swtich gear or
I would have you on the trailer heading home.
Goldie uses a Kilavac Bubba rated at 500 amps and 320 volts and can
open over 2500 amps. This is greater than the short circuit rating of
the Yellow tops.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cliff, avoid extending these cables. Their inductance is calibrated
and is taken into account in inverter's software. Changing
inductance without adjusting software (degrading performance) may
cause parasitic oscillations and voltage spikes. This issue is more
complicated that may seem. In any case, keep all phases cables the
same length. I suppose couple of inches extra is acceptable.
How much extra do you need? Is there a way to move inverter closer?
Cliff Rassweiler wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I need to extend the cables from a Siemen's AC motor to the controller. The
> cables look like about 1/0 or 2/0 but are unusual in that they are shielded
> and grounded to the case of the motor. Does anybody know a place that I can
> order 25 feet of shielded 1/0 cable?
>
> Thanks
>
> Cliff
>
> www.ProEV.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Folks,
The Tour de Sol is beginning to announce its 2003 plans.
A participant's newsletter included these tidbits ...
Tour de Sol - The Great American Green Transportation Festival
Saturday, May 10: Burlington County NJ
(no public events on Sunday, May 11, Mothers Day)
Monday, May 12 Trenton NJ
Tuesday, May 13 Philadelphia PA
Wednesday, May 14 Washingon DC
* General Motors will bring the Hy-Wire, their most advanced hydrogen
fuel cell prototype based on their skateboard shaped AUTOnomy
platform.
* Toyota will join us as a Bronze Sponsor, and they will showcase
their hybrid Prius.
* More than a dozen student teams, including New Jersey's own Trenton
Central High School and Cinnaminson High School, have already signed
up. Others from China, Florida, Canada, Pennsylvania, New York, Ohio,
Massachusetts, and Oklahoma.
* Dennis Weaver, aka "Chester" on Gunsmoke and "McCloud," will join
the Tour in Washington, DC, and possibly in Philadelphia, with his
Drive to Survive!
Check the NESEA web site for full listing.
http://www.nesea.org/transportation/tour
If you want to see a wide variety of electric and hybrid electric vehicles "on
the hoof" (he said, mixing his metaphors) I know of no better place than the
Tour de Sol.
If you want to show your electric or hybrid-electric stuff, well ...
Foveal Systems will again sponsor and produce the Tour de Sol Reports.
http://www.foveal.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
--
Mike Bianchi
Foveal Systems
190 Loantaka Way
Madison NJ 07940-1910
+1 973 822-2085 Voice and Fax
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Create videos of auditorium and classroom presentations without a crew?
Yes!
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>> I'd use two Albrights in series (or a double-pole with the poles in
>> series).
Rich Rudman wrote:
> I would use Kilovac Czonkas or Bubbas from Rod at EVpart.com.
> I would NOT use Albrights at greater than 156 VDC. If I was a Nedra
> Tech inspector... You would have speced swtich gear or I would have
> you on the trailer heading home.
It is standard engineering practice to put multiple contacts in series
to get higher voltage ratings. The individual contact voltage ratings
can be added as long as you insure that they open and close together.
A tech inspector shouldn't automatically reject this.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Cliff, avoid extending these cables. Their inductance is calibrated
> and is taken into account in inverter's software. Changing
> inductance without adjusting software (degrading performance) may
> cause parasitic oscillations and voltage spikes. This issue is more
> complicated that may seem. In any case, keep all phases cables the
> same length. I suppose couple of inches extra is acceptable.
Are you sure, Victor? The inductance of a straight piece of wire is very
low. And, when you bundle the wires together, it goes down even more.
Compared to the inductance of the motor windings, the wire's inductance
should be negligible.
Now, I might worry about the capacitance of the shield on that wire. But
this can be controlled by spacing the shield farther away from the wire
so the capacitance is the same despite the extra wire length.
Or, I could imagine a Siemens designer might have hidden an EMI filter
inside the motor, so the wires from the inverter don't go directly to
the windings but rather to a carefully chosen inductance and
capacitance. In this case, the cable's capacitance and inductance are
part of this filter, and changing the length would alter the filter's
characteristics. But even in this case, its main effect would be to
degrade EMI performance, not affect motor operation.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rod Hower asks >nicad batteries in current eliminator? <
I am not at liberty to say at this
point in time.I am keeping a promise not to expose power supply until after
Vegas.Supplier seems to think 900+cycles at bracket racing levels.NHRA has
already seen power supply an they approve.There may be another vech. at Vegas
with these looking for one of there> nedra< records.
nedra >>>>>>>>>> OUTLAW DENNIS KILOWATT
BERUBE<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>
> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> > Cliff, avoid extending these cables. Their inductance is calibrated
> > and is taken into account in inverter's software. Changing
> > inductance without adjusting software (degrading performance) may
> > cause parasitic oscillations and voltage spikes. This issue is more
> > complicated that may seem. In any case, keep all phases cables the
> > same length. I suppose couple of inches extra is acceptable.
>
> Are you sure, Victor? The inductance of a straight piece of wire is very
> low. And, when you bundle the wires together, it goes down even more.
> Compared to the inductance of the motor windings, the wire's inductance
> should be negligible.
Yes, I was a bit surprised too, but this was
an advise from my supplier who conveyed it from Siemens engineer
who directly worked on inverter design. I know practically from
my experience testing these (extreme case): I was trying to check
functionality and doubled the length of motor leads with unshielded
gauge 8 wires. I could not get the system to work at all until
I removed extension and dragged the motor closer (something
I was trying to avoid). What exactly is affected I cannot tell
(I don't know), I know that it's pretty sensitive to the shielding
and wire length. Cross talk between unshielded sections of the
motor cables (3-4 inches extensions) will make the rotor jerk
back and forth a little with no acceleration demand. Perhaps
current sensors sense interference coming from adjacent cable?
I have seen this on my 45 kW motors, and Cliff's motors are not
that different. Inverters are identical.
Victor
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Cliff, I just got some more accurate update on this. If you extend
the cables, the shielding quality affects overall operation much more
than length of extension, shields must be joined well and have no
possibility to touch high voltage terminals. The cable type is
KNDS according to SN 53140, I realize this doesn't tell you much
in the USA. Cable cross-section: 35 mm^2
Bottom line - try to minimize extension length, but if you have to,
I've been told that it's acceptable. If you can wait with this,
I can deliver KNDS cable to you, I need to know the length you need
and find out how much time will it take to get it from overseas.
Victor
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>
> Cliff, avoid extending these cables. Their inductance is calibrated
> and is taken into account in inverter's software. Changing
> inductance without adjusting software (degrading performance) may
> cause parasitic oscillations and voltage spikes. This issue is more
> complicated that may seem. In any case, keep all phases cables the
> same length. I suppose couple of inches extra is acceptable.
>
> How much extra do you need? Is there a way to move inverter closer?
>
> Cliff Rassweiler wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I need to extend the cables from a Siemen's AC motor to the controller. The
> > cables look like about 1/0 or 2/0 but are unusual in that they are shielded
> > and grounded to the case of the motor. Does anybody know a place that I can
> > order 25 feet of shielded 1/0 cable?
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Does anyone know the best source for Optimas? Do EAA members get any
sort of discount?
Thanks,
Alec
--
Alec Proudfoot
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(408) 249-3982
cell: (408) 806-3412
http://www.survivalmachine.com
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--- Begin Message ---
Sorry listers, perhaps this is getting too specific
for general interest and should have gone to Cliff off list.
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>
> Cliff, I just got some more accurate update on this. If you extend...
...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, Feb 10, 2003 at 04:26:37PM -0800, Lee Hart wrote:
> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> > Cliff, avoid extending these cables. Their inductance is calibrated
> > and is taken into account in inverter's software. Changing
> > inductance without adjusting software (degrading performance) may
> > cause parasitic oscillations and voltage spikes. This issue is more
> > complicated that may seem. In any case, keep all phases cables the
> > same length. I suppose couple of inches extra is acceptable.
>
> Or, I could imagine a Siemens designer might have hidden an EMI filter
> inside the motor, so the wires from the inverter don't go directly to
I took the midsized Seimens motor apart, there is nothing special inside the motor case
except two temp sensors buried in the windings and an optical tach (Both connected to a
custom data cable).
The precision and quality of the design of the motor is fairly awe inspiring. Little
things
like the water jacket is seperatly gasketed from the rotor, if the seals fail it will
leak
outside the case, not into the rotor. Even the end cap over the tach has a o-ring...
> the windings but rather to a carefully chosen inductance and
> capacitance. In this case, the cable's capacitance and inductance are
> part of this filter, and changing the length would alter the filter's
> characteristics. But even in this case, its main effect would be to
> degrade EMI performance, not affect motor operation.
As Victor notes.. there are a large number of parameters in the drive software that
are set
at the factory, most having to do with motor inductance.
Although I defer to Lee's superior knowledge, my copy of Robert Valentine's Motor
Control
Handbook warns about the deterimental effects of just a few microheneries of inductance
caused by cabling. (He strongly encourages mounting the power electronics on the
motor case,
something that would be difficult in most EVs)
Mark
--
"The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of
zeal, well-meaning but without understanding."
-- Justice Louis O. Brandeis, Olmstead vs. United States
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--- Begin Message ---
Doesn't surprise me much. I have seen a shield on phase leads to a VFD
make more than an amp of current to ground, short circuit, and more than
100V open circuit.
Seth
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>
> Cliff, I just got some more accurate update on this. If you extend
> the cables, the shielding quality affects overall operation much more
> than length of extension, shields must be joined well and have no
> possibility to touch high voltage terminals. The cable type is
> KNDS according to SN 53140, I realize this doesn't tell you much
> in the USA. Cable cross-section: 35 mm^2
>
> Bottom line - try to minimize extension length, but if you have to,
> I've been told that it's acceptable. If you can wait with this,
> I can deliver KNDS cable to you, I need to know the length you need
> and find out how much time will it take to get it from overseas.
>
> Victor
>
> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> >
> > Cliff, avoid extending these cables. Their inductance is calibrated
> > and is taken into account in inverter's software. Changing
> > inductance without adjusting software (degrading performance) may
> > cause parasitic oscillations and voltage spikes. This issue is more
> > complicated that may seem. In any case, keep all phases cables the
> > same length. I suppose couple of inches extra is acceptable.
> >
> > How much extra do you need? Is there a way to move inverter closer?
> >
> > Cliff Rassweiler wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I need to extend the cables from a Siemen's AC motor to the controller. The
> > > cables look like about 1/0 or 2/0 but are unusual in that they are shielded
> > > and grounded to the case of the motor. Does anybody know a place that I can
> > > order 25 feet of shielded 1/0 cable?
--
vze3v25q@verizondotnet
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Hi Seth,
Didn't you attend the NEEAA meeting this past Saturday ?
"Do not" use a relay with a voltage rating below your max battery pack or
you may be in for some real trouble.
I once had surplus relays weld shut when using too high a voltage across
the contacts even though the contacts were rated for higher amps than
drawn.
Only thing that saved me was a handy main DC circuit breaker that was way
over rated for current and voltage.
Menlo Park III,
Bill
On Mon, 10 Feb 2003 14:52:10 -0500 Seth Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Hi All -
>
> I'm finally getting to work on my second conversion, so once
> again I
> have a few things to ask the list (more eventually). First up:
> What
> contactor(s) should I use for my 192 volt system? A standard
> Allbright
> SW200 is not rated for the voltage, although I believe it is robust
> enough to handle the current. I have heard bad things about the
> Kilovac contactors welding shut under relatively light loads. I
> know
> that Rod Wilde used a beefed up Allbright in the Maniac Mazda (I
> believe he had stronger anti-arc magnets or something like that)
> which
> would be more than enough for use in my car. Anyone have any
> thoughts?
>
> Seth
________________________________________________________________
Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
Only $9.95 per month!
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--- Begin Message ---
Sam Harper wrote:
> -Lead Acid : A good staple battery. Proven to provide adequate
> service, though it does not have a high capacity
> -Optima Yellow Top : A step up from the lead acid. Providing more
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
...
Sam, be accurate not to mislead newbies. Yellow top *IS* lead acid.
It's obvious what you're trying to say, but technically underlined
statement makes little sense.
Victor
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--- Begin Message ---
What ever happened to AC drive manufacturer Propulse?
-Sam Harper
Go here:
http://www.propulse.si/
They seem to be still in business (someone still pays the registrar,
anyway) but the site is rather old. Hasn't been updated since 2001.
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
-Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have seen Czonkas fail. But I don't recall seeing them fail when they
were used as designed. Making or breaking under load seems to damage
them. They are rated to break (depending on the model) a lot of current.
Once. Then you throw them away. Inrush currents when the contacts "make"
dosn't seem to do them much good, and you can get a delayed failure
mode.
For packs wired in parallel, if your coil drive is less than robust, you
may find yourself with fewer contactors engaged than you thought. The
economizer circuit works well, but they really do need at least 4A @12V
to close. Probably for a few hundred milliseconds.
I have heard about series wiring contactors, but if one fails to break,
you are left with a situation that has some potential for harm.
Especially if you are using a non-sealed contactor.
I like the Bubba contactor, other than the magnet seems to collect
everything in its path. I am also still trying to find a source for
pyrotechnic fuses.
Seth
Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> > Seth Murray wrote:
> > > What contactor(s) should I use for my 192 volt system? A standard
> > > Allbright SW200 is not rated for the voltage, although I believe it
> > > is robust enough to handle the current... Anyone have any thoughts?
> >
> > I'd use two Albrights in series (or a double-pole with the poles in
> > series).
> > --
> > Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> > 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> > Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> > leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
> I would use KilaVac Czonkas or Bubbas fron Rod at EVpart.com
> Kilavac also has stuff at higher than 320 VDC, but you have to dig it
> out of their Website or catalogs.
>
> I would NOT use Albrights at greater than 156 VDC.
> If I was a Nedra Tech inspector... You would have speced swtich gear or
> I would have you on the trailer heading home.
>
> Goldie uses a Kilavac Bubba rated at 500 amps and 320 volts and can
> open over 2500 amps. This is greater than the short circuit rating of
> the Yellow tops.
>
> --
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
> www.manzanitamicro.com
> 1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--
vze3v25q@verizondotnet
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--- Begin Message ---
Seth Murray wrote:
> First up: What contactor(s) should I use for my 192 volt system?
> A standard Allbright SW200 is not rated for the voltage, although
> I believe it is robust enough to handle the current. I have heard
> bad things about the Kilovac contactors welding shut under
> relatively light loads. I know that Rod Wilde used a beefed up
> Allbright in the Maniac Mazda (I believe he had stronger anti-arc
> magnets or something like that) which would be more than enough
> for use in my car. Anyone have any thoughts?
I believe the Albright contactors are rated for 96 volts so pushing to
use in 120 V system and certainly no good in a 192 V system.
As for the Kilovac contactors, the big bubbas should be fine. It is the
baby ones that might be questionable. The Czonka III'sThe apparently
need to be replaced after being asked to interrupt a major current. They
are meant to only turn on and off loads that are already near zero.
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S-10
1970s Elec-Trak E20
http://www.eeevee.com
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