EV Digest 2586
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Money talk (was: General Battery Concensus)
by Chris Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: High Voltag Contactors
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Money talk (was: General Battery Concensus)
by "Christian T. Kocmick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: High Voltage Contactors
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: High Voltage Contactors
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Tom Swift and his Electric Runabout
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Best source for Optimas?
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Send This Letter!
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Best source for Optimas?
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re:Charging safety was Recipe for battricide?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Money talk (was: General Battery Concensus)
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: High Voltage Contactors
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Money talk (was: General Battery Concensus)
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: GE "9 motor cooling
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Money talk (was: General Battery Concensus)
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Tom Swift and his Electric Runabout
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Money talk (was: General Battery Concensus)
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re:Charging safety
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) NASA Tech Briefs INSIDER 2/11/03
by "Buford, Joseph E" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) SnippedURL: Re: Tom Swift and his Electric Runabout
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Begin Message ---
Your cost-effectiveness analysis intrigues me. Do these perform much
better in your performance simulations? If you are thinking about a group
order, let me know (although it may be a little while before I'm ready for
them - I haven't even decided on a motor yet :)
Thanks,
Chris
At 08:55 PM 2/10/2003 -0800, you wrote:
Gordon Niessen wrote:
>
> But where are you buying your Li Ion pack from?
Order from Thunder-sky directly.
> And what about the
> charger? Do you have a charger that you feel comfortable that it will keep
> you pack running as long and health as your estimate?
Manufacturer recommends simple CC/CV alg, not even temp compensated.
Don't ever exceed max voltage, stop accurately, keep cells in balance
and you're in good shape. PFC-20 can handle it easily. Preferred
accuracy of the CV portion must be about 1% though.
Joe, Rich, can you maintain set voltage to +/-1%?
> I have tried contacting many sources for NiMH and Li Ion, but all are just
> R&D or for larger commercial sales. They aren't selling simple modular
> packs with which to build your own solution, or even a one size fits all
> that you can build a EV around.
There are few LiIon sources you can buy from today - Saft,
Thunder-sky, Worley energy cells to name a few. Thunder-sky just
seem best deal money wise, especially for a large group purchase.
Dealing with them is difficult though.
Victor
> At 08:32 PM 2/10/2003, you wrote:
> >"John G. Lussmyer" wrote:
> > >
> > > One thing I've been trying to do while looking at batteries is to
look at
> > > $/mi for the pack.
> > > This has to take into account:
> > > A) Average trip length (i.e. average DOD)
> > > B) $ for the pack
> > > C) Useful cycle life with the above DOD.
> > > Of course the DOD for a given trip changes for each type of
battery, so you
> > > can't just use 50% DOD for all battery types.
> > > Example: My Sparrow with a 27 mile commute is about a 90% DOD for
Optimas,
> > > but would probably only be about a 40% DOD for a LiIon pack.
> >
> >This is correct; all conditions (range) must be equal to compare
> >the pack. The same person/car will go the same distances if the battery
> >type will be ever switched, so for a given person it's relevant how
> >much he pays for the pack per it's life, which is different because
> >of different DODs. You may get surprising results.
> >
> >Example:
> >
> >My current pack of 27 Optimas $125 each (not counting mistakes :-) ),
> >$3,375. 43 useful Ah * 340V = 14,628 Wh pack. Discharged to 80% DOD
> >means 11,703 Wh spent and I can do it 220 (Manufacturer rated) times.
> >11,703 Wh*220=2,574,660 Wh moved over life, and I have to throw away
> >the pack. I paid $3,375/2,574,660=$0,0013/Wh or $1.3/kWh over life.
> >
> >LiIon: 100 cell 100 Ah 3.6V each, 36,000 Wh pack, $15,000.
> >Going the same distance as above, requiring 11,703 Wh will bring
> >it to just 11,703*100/36,000=32.5% DOD, and my pack then is lasting
> >for 3000 cycles at this DOD (estimation, based on Thunder-sky data)
> >over life. I move 11,703*3,000=35,109,000 Wh, and throw away the pack.
> >I paid $15,000/35109000=$0,000427/Wh or $0,427 per Wh over life.
> >
> >Conclusions (for my situation only, and I assume BMS cost is about
> >the same, $1000 difference won't make any real difference, here
> >is why):
> >
> >1. LiIon pack end up more than 3 times cheaper than YT Optimas over
> >life (provided I keep replacing Optimas during life of LiIons).
> >
> >2. Charged once a day optima last for 220 days, 7.3 month.
> >LiIon last for 3000 days or 8 years 4 month. During that time
> >I'd have to replace 3000/220=13.6 YT packs.
> >
> >The cost of 13.6 YT packs is $3,375*13.6=$45,900
> >
> >4. This all is not to mention a fun light car all these years
> >and not having problems with beefing suspension, for PbA,
> >handling, braking, etc. Something hard to estimate in dollars,
> >but you see a big picture.
> >
> >The only turn off is large up front investment. But it's
> >like a mortgage if you don't buy your house outright.
> >Few can, but in case of batteries shelling out $15k
> >I can survive (worst case - take a loan).
> >
> >So you decide whether you want to pay $15k one time or
> >spread about $46k over 8 years in $3,375 portions every
> >7.3 month. Don't forget, you provide pack replacement
> >free fun labor too, 13 times. Don't know about you guys,
> >but I'm fed up after my 3rd pack replacement...
> >
> >Disclaimer: check my math.
> >Statement: I'll do LiIon regardless of my math :-)
> >
> >Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>
> Lee Hart wrote:
> >> I'd use two Albrights in series (or a double-pole with the poles in
> >> series).
>
> Rich Rudman wrote:
> > I would use Kilovac Czonkas or Bubbas from Rod at EVpart.com.
> > I would NOT use Albrights at greater than 156 VDC. If I was a Nedra
> > Tech inspector... You would have speced swtich gear or I would have
> > you on the trailer heading home.
>
> It is standard engineering practice to put multiple contacts in series
> to get higher voltage ratings. The individual contact voltage ratings
> can be added as long as you insure that they open and close together.
> A tech inspector shouldn't automatically reject this.
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
Lee why does this bother me???
I know this, but... I still don't feel safe with it.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Count me in on a group order of Li Ions, too!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 12:29 AM
Subject: Re: Money talk (was: General Battery Concensus)
> Your cost-effectiveness analysis intrigues me. Do these perform much
> better in your performance simulations? If you are thinking about a group
> order, let me know (although it may be a little while before I'm ready for
> them - I haven't even decided on a motor yet :)
> Thanks,
> Chris
>
> At 08:55 PM 2/10/2003 -0800, you wrote:
> >Gordon Niessen wrote:
> > >
> > > But where are you buying your Li Ion pack from?
> >
> >Order from Thunder-sky directly.
> >
> > > And what about the
> > > charger? Do you have a charger that you feel comfortable that it will
keep
> > > you pack running as long and health as your estimate?
> >
> >Manufacturer recommends simple CC/CV alg, not even temp compensated.
> >Don't ever exceed max voltage, stop accurately, keep cells in balance
> >and you're in good shape. PFC-20 can handle it easily. Preferred
> >accuracy of the CV portion must be about 1% though.
> >
> >Joe, Rich, can you maintain set voltage to +/-1%?
> >
> > > I have tried contacting many sources for NiMH and Li Ion, but all are
just
> > > R&D or for larger commercial sales. They aren't selling simple
modular
> > > packs with which to build your own solution, or even a one size fits
all
> > > that you can build a EV around.
> >
> >There are few LiIon sources you can buy from today - Saft,
> >Thunder-sky, Worley energy cells to name a few. Thunder-sky just
> >seem best deal money wise, especially for a large group purchase.
> >Dealing with them is difficult though.
> >
> >Victor
> >
> > > At 08:32 PM 2/10/2003, you wrote:
> > > >"John G. Lussmyer" wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > One thing I've been trying to do while looking at batteries is to
> > look at
> > > > > $/mi for the pack.
> > > > > This has to take into account:
> > > > > A) Average trip length (i.e. average DOD)
> > > > > B) $ for the pack
> > > > > C) Useful cycle life with the above DOD.
> > > > > Of course the DOD for a given trip changes for each type of
> > battery, so you
> > > > > can't just use 50% DOD for all battery types.
> > > > > Example: My Sparrow with a 27 mile commute is about a 90% DOD for
> > Optimas,
> > > > > but would probably only be about a 40% DOD for a LiIon pack.
> > > >
> > > >This is correct; all conditions (range) must be equal to compare
> > > >the pack. The same person/car will go the same distances if the
battery
> > > >type will be ever switched, so for a given person it's relevant how
> > > >much he pays for the pack per it's life, which is different because
> > > >of different DODs. You may get surprising results.
> > > >
> > > >Example:
> > > >
> > > >My current pack of 27 Optimas $125 each (not counting mistakes :-) ),
> > > >$3,375. 43 useful Ah * 340V = 14,628 Wh pack. Discharged to 80% DOD
> > > >means 11,703 Wh spent and I can do it 220 (Manufacture ) times.
> > > >11,703 Wh*220=2,574,660 Wh moved over life, and I have to throw away
> > > >the pack. I paid $3,375/2,574,660=$0,0013/Wh or $1.3/kWh over life.
> > > >
> > > >LiIon: 100 cell 100 Ah 3.6V each, 36,000 Wh pack, $15,000.
> > > >Going the same distance as above, requiring 11,703 Wh will bring
> > > >it to just 11,703*100/36,000=32.5% DOD, and my pack then is lasting
> > > >for 3000 cycles at this DOD (estimation, based on Thunder-sky data)
> > > >over life. I move 11,703*3,000=35,109,000 Wh, and throw away the
pack.
> > > >I paid $15,000/35109000=$0,000427/Wh or $0,427 per Wh over life.
> > > >
> > > >Conclusions (for my situation only, and I assume BMS cost is about
> > > >the same, $1000 difference won't make any real difference, here
> > > >is why):
> > > >
> > > >1. LiIon pack end up more than 3 times cheaper than YT Optimas over
> > > >life (provided I keep replacing Optimas during life of LiIons).
> > > >
> > > >2. Charged once a day optima last for 220 days, 7.3 month.
> > > >LiIon last for 3000 days or 8 years 4 month. During that time
> > > >I'd have to replace 3000/220=13.6 YT packs.
> > > >
> > > >The cost of 13.6 YT packs is $3,375*13.6=$45,900
> > > >
> > > >4. This all is not to mention a fun light car all these years
> > > >and not having problems with beefing suspension, for PbA,
> > > >handling, braking, etc. Something hard to estimate in dollars,
> > > >but you see a big picture.
> > > >
> > > >The only turn off is large up front investment. But it's
> > > >like a mortgage if you don't buy your house outright.
> > > >Few can, but in case of batteries shelling out $15k
> > > >I can survive (worst case - take a loan).
> > > >
> > > >So you decide whether you want to pay $15k one time or
> > > >spread about $46k over 8 years in $3,375 portions every
> > > >7.3 month. Don't forget, you provide pack replacement
> > > >free fun labor too, 13 times. Don't know about you guys,
> > > >but I'm fed up after my 3rd pack replacement...
> > > >
> > > >Disclaimer: check my math.
> > > >Statement: I'll do LiIon regardless of my math :-)
> > > >
> > > >Victor
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roderick Wilde wrote:
> My advice is to use two Kilovac Kizonka III's in parallel. They are
> rated 250 amps continuous which would give you 500 amps continuous
> and they are made for 300 volt systems. Two of them cost about the
> same as a single Allbright and they have a coil economizer built in.
Now I'm afraid I'll have to be the spoilsport.
Contacts in parallel do not share current well. Contact resistance is
very low, and varies considerably each time you close the contact. Thus
when you parallel two contacts, you can't tell how the current will
divide between them.
If you really must do this, you can deliberately include some "ballast"
resistance in series with each contact. Typically, this will be a
separate long-ish wire to each of the parallelled contacts. The
resistance of this wire sets a minimum for each path, and thus forces
the current to share more equally.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>>>> I'd use two Albrights in series (or a double-pole with the poles
>>>> in series).
Tom Shay wrote:
>> Multiple contacts in series can be used to increase the voltage
>> rating IF they are operated by a common mechanism that ensures
>> that the sets of contacts will open and close at the same time.
Yes. In fact, my own EV has two Albright SW190B contactors. The SW190B
is a single coil contactor with two SPST NO contacts, each rated for
120vdc, 150 amps continuous, 600a interrupting capacity. Since my pack
is 132v, I put two contacts in series. They are wired like this:
precharge
K1a resistor
Battery+ ____||_________/\/\/\________controller B+
|| | |
|___||___||___|
|| ||
K2a K2b
K1b
Battery- ____||_______________________controller B-
||
precharge brake light
switch (NO) switch (NC)
+12v _________/_______/__
|_ |_
_| _|
_| K1 _| K2
_| coil _| coil
ground _____|______________|
Dropping either contactor breaks the circuit with two contacts in
series. Also, turning off the key removes power from K1 and K2
simultaneously, putting 4 contacts all in series to break the circuit.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 10 Feb 2003 at 10:16, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> You need to string the entire URL together.
Thanks -- that's what I did, but still got the error page. Just tried it
again, though, and it works fine. Maybe they had the page offline for a
while.
"It's an oxide of nickel battery, with steel and oxide of iron negative
electrodes. ... I have, in the experimental battery, a solution of potassium
hydrate," replied the lad, "but I think I'm going to change it, and add some
lithium hydrate to it. I think that will make it stronger."
"If you build a car I hope you give me a ride in it," said Mr. Damon ... The
gasolene auto doesn't go very fast."
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 03:47 PM 2/10/2003 -0800, Alec Proudfoot wrote:
Does anyone know the best source for Optimas? Do EAA members get any sort
of discount?
Hmm, no answers yet. Weird.
Anyway, the best price I found was to go to my local Optima dealer. When
buying 13 of them, I paid $126 ea, included delivery and removal of the old
batteries.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 10 Feb 2003 at 20:13, Marvin Campbell wrote:
> PLEASE help us convince CARB to uphold the Zero Emissions Vehicle Mandate.
This is a brave effort, but I fear it's a doomed one. Granted, I'm a
distant observer, but from here it looks like CARB is fatally damaged.
In the past they've forced Detroit (and Tokyo) to develop emissions control
systems that the automakers swore were impossible to design; or, if possible
to design, impossible to produce; or, if possible to produce, impossible to
make affordable. When CARB held their feet to the fire, they designed them,
produced them, and made them affordable.
But that was years ago. The automakers now know that CARB will cave under
threat of litigation. I believe this means that their ability to effect any
further change in emissions standards is compromised, even where EVs are not
involved.
I hope I'm wrong, but I think CARB is going to have a very difficult time
recovering from the events of the last couple of years.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 10 Feb 2003 at 21:47, John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> local Optima dealer. ... $126 ea ...
John Wayland used to charge $125, IIRC. That price seemed to be considered
pretty good, so I guess you did OK.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jon,
Can you convert that schematic to an image and post it, either to me off
list or to a website and then post the link. I am interested in how it
works.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Knepher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 9:32 PM
Subject: Re:Charging safety was Recipe for battricide?
> > ----- Message from [EMAIL PROTECTED] ---------
> > I have struggled with a solution to this problem and have not figured
out a
> > way to eliminate this problem short of converting both sides of the 240
line
> > to DC and then using the DC to run (or enable) the charger.
>
> I use a modified avcon powerpack. I have a series of relays that trigger
the
> charger enable pin in the powerpack. The relays detect proper X1-N1, Y2-
> N2, X1-Y2, and no N1-N2 voltage, and if all is correct, then the GFCI is
> enabled and the main contactor closes when charge is requested. If any
pin has
> the wrong voltage, the
> GFCI is disabled and the contactor opens. The arrangement of the relays
> prevents X1-Y2 leakage/continuity when there is no X1-N1 or Y2-N2 voltage
(plug
> pulled out).
> There is a little time for the contactor to open that could be dangerous,
but I
> feel it is safe enough for me to use when it is supervised. That being
said, I
> still check everything with a voltmeter first, and prefer to use a real
240
> outlet. For the used (not just sense) ground and neutral, only one side
(N1,
> G1) is used to prevent neutral and ground currents from flowing through
the
> box. (The avcon box insists on having a neutral - its brains run on
120vac.)
>
> Jon
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
> * LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
And please post notes to the list afterwards...
-----Original Message-----
From: Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, 11 February 2003 3:44 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Money talk (was: General Battery Concensus)
If you want, will talk about it this Thursday on OEVA meeting.
Victor
Myles Twete wrote:
>
> Hi Victor-
> what's the best way to get these Li-Ion batteries?
> I remember you saying at our OEVA meeting last month that they cost
> something like $300 each (Q:1) to $150 each (Q:100). That seems to match
> your numbers below. I may be interested in these or the Evercels for my
> electric boat project. I'd also like to know how to buy the Evercels.
> Thanks---see you Thursday.
>
> -Myles Twete, Portland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roderick Wilde wrote:
> My advice is to use two Kilovac Kizonka III's in parallel. They are
> rated 250 amps continuous which would give you 500 amps continuous
> and they are made for 300 volt systems. Two of them cost about the
> same as a single Allbright and they have a coil economizer built in.
Now I'm afraid I'll have to be the spoilsport.
Contacts in parallel do not share current well. Contact resistance is
very low, and varies considerably each time you close the contact. Thus
when you parallel two contacts, you can't tell how the current will
divide between them.
If you really must do this, you can deliberately include some "ballast"
resistance in series with each contact. Typically, this will be a
separate long-ish wire to each of the parallelled contacts. The
resistance of this wire sets a minimum for each path, and thus forces
the current to share more equally.
I have to agree with Lee here. And I would add do not use two of them
in parallel unless you have a fuse that is really rated with a I/t
curve low enough to protect the contactor on each one.
I tried this on my 914 with bad results. One of the contactors was
hogging current and ended up failing welded on.
Here is the picture of the inside of the failed contactor.
http://www.cafeelectric.com/temp/DCP_4684sm.JPG
I did check with a engineer at Kilovac before paralleling them and
was advised that they should current share well. Unfortunately this
was not the case. The only warning I remember was to keep them within
the break rating for just one, which I did. When I was racing in
Vegas last year one of them was getting stuck on. I might not have
even noticed except for the fact that my Hairball interface will not
let you start driving if the main contactor is welded on.
I am really not happy with the fact that Kilovac contactors can not
be visually inspected. Let's say you do have a problem with your 12V
system while at moderate power and it causes your contactor to drop
out. How do you determine if you should spend the $400 for a new
contactor? I'm afraid that many of us, myself included would have a
hard time spending that money on a problem we couldn't see.
Since my Kilovacs failed, I've used a underrated SW200 on my 240 volt
system and due to some debugging have often opened the contacts at
high current (about 800 amps) The contacts show signs of it, just
minor burns that extend off the side with slight rounding (melting)
of the edge of the contact where the magnetic blowouts did their job.
But they seem to be holding up well. I would like to put in some of
Rods high power magnets (and a new set of contacts) to see how that
would look.
I am not happy using the SW200 as my main contactor, but it seems to
be doing well and I would be happy with it if we had some high
voltage test data to know the limits of it. I wish I knew of a better
solution.
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ New Zilla controllers, now available.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The design voltage regulation was 0.1% of 400 volts (0.4 volts). If the pack
is over 40 volts then the charge setpoint should be within 1%.
My concern is the difference between the pack voltage and the cell voltage.
Even if the pack voltage is regulated to within 0.1%, the cell voltages
might vary by more than 1%.
Do these cells need individual cell voltage managers to be operated safely?
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 8:55 PM
Subject: Re: Money talk (was: General Battery Concensus)
> Gordon Niessen wrote:
> >
> > But where are you buying your Li Ion pack from?
>
> Order from Thunder-sky directly.
>
> > And what about the
> > charger? Do you have a charger that you feel comfortable that it will
keep
> > you pack running as long and health as your estimate?
>
> Manufacturer recommends simple CC/CV alg, not even temp compensated.
> Don't ever exceed max voltage, stop accurately, keep cells in balance
> and you're in good shape. PFC-20 can handle it easily. Preferred
> accuracy of the CV portion must be about 1% though.
>
> Joe, Rich, can you maintain set voltage to +/-1%?
>
> > I have tried contacting many sources for NiMH and Li Ion, but all are
just
> > R&D or for larger commercial sales. They aren't selling simple modular
> > packs with which to build your own solution, or even a one size fits all
> > that you can build a EV around.
>
> There are few LiIon sources you can buy from today - Saft,
> Thunder-sky, Worley energy cells to name a few. Thunder-sky just
> seem best deal money wise, especially for a large group purchase.
> Dealing with them is difficult though.
>
> Victor
>
> > At 08:32 PM 2/10/2003, you wrote:
> > >"John G. Lussmyer" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > One thing I've been trying to do while looking at batteries is to
look at
> > > > $/mi for the pack.
> > > > This has to take into account:
> > > > A) Average trip length (i.e. average DOD)
> > > > B) $ for the pack
> > > > C) Useful cycle life with the above DOD.
> > > > Of course the DOD for a given trip changes for each type of battery,
so you
> > > > can't just use 50% DOD for all battery types.
> > > > Example: My Sparrow with a 27 mile commute is about a 90% DOD for
Optimas,
> > > > but would probably only be about a 40% DOD for a LiIon pack.
> > >
> > >This is correct; all conditions (range) must be equal to compare
> > >the pack. The same person/car will go the same distances if the battery
> > >type will be ever switched, so for a given person it's relevant how
> > >much he pays for the pack per it's life, which is different because
> > >of different DODs. You may get surprising results.
> > >
> > >Example:
> > >
> > >My current pack of 27 Optimas $125 each (not counting mistakes :-) ),
> > >$3,375. 43 useful Ah * 340V = 14,628 Wh pack. Discharged to 80% DOD
> > >means 11,703 Wh spent and I can do it 220 (Manufacturer rated) times.
> > >11,703 Wh*220=2,574,660 Wh moved over life, and I have to throw away
> > >the pack. I paid $3,375/2,574,660=$0,0013/Wh or $1.3/kWh over life.
> > >
> > >LiIon: 100 cell 100 Ah 3.6V each, 36,000 Wh pack, $15,000.
> > >Going the same distance as above, requiring 11,703 Wh will bring
> > >it to just 11,703*100/36,000=32.5% DOD, and my pack then is lasting
> > >for 3000 cycles at this DOD (estimation, based on Thunder-sky data)
> > >over life. I move 11,703*3,000=35,109,000 Wh, and throw away the pack.
> > >I paid $15,000/35109000=$0,000427/Wh or $0,427 per Wh over life.
> > >
> > >Conclusions (for my situation only, and I assume BMS cost is about
> > >the same, $1000 difference won't make any real difference, here
> > >is why):
> > >
> > >1. LiIon pack end up more than 3 times cheaper than YT Optimas over
> > >life (provided I keep replacing Optimas during life of LiIons).
> > >
> > >2. Charged once a day optima last for 220 days, 7.3 month.
> > >LiIon last for 3000 days or 8 years 4 month. During that time
> > >I'd have to replace 3000/220=13.6 YT packs.
> > >
> > >The cost of 13.6 YT packs is $3,375*13.6=$45,900
> > >
> > >4. This all is not to mention a fun light car all these years
> > >and not having problems with beefing suspension, for PbA,
> > >handling, braking, etc. Something hard to estimate in dollars,
> > >but you see a big picture.
> > >
> > >The only turn off is large up front investment. But it's
> > >like a mortgage if you don't buy your house outright.
> > >Few can, but in case of batteries shelling out $15k
> > >I can survive (worst case - take a loan).
> > >
> > >So you decide whether you want to pay $15k one time or
> > >spread about $46k over 8 years in $3,375 portions every
> > >7.3 month. Don't forget, you provide pack replacement
> > >free fun labor too, 13 times. Don't know about you guys,
> > >but I'm fed up after my 3rd pack replacement...
> > >
> > >Disclaimer: check my math.
> > >Statement: I'll do LiIon regardless of my math :-)
> > >
> > >Victor
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The PWM is made from 2 gates of an LM324. As a matter of fact the entire
circuit uses only one LM324 to do everything but drive the gates (IR2112)
and regulate the incoming voltage (TL783). Everything but the heat sink
mounted components are on a business card sized piece of perf board.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 4:41 PM
Subject: Re: GE "9 motor cooling
> This would be a good way to experiment with PWM's and maybe later I'll try
> this , but for now I have to keep it simple .
> What did you use for the PWM ?
>
> ---- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 3:24 PM
> Subject: Re: GE "9 motor cooling
>
>
> > 4. Put a thermistor on the motor that controlled a PWM controller to
> control
> > the fan motor. The hotter the motor gets, the faster the blower runs. I
> have
> > this in my car and it works much better than the other three options.
> >
> > Joe Smalley
> > Rural Kitsap County WA
> > Fiesta 48 volts
> > NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 5:34 PM
> > Subject: GE "9 motor cooling
> >
> >
> >
> > > Here is what I'm thinking of right now
> > > 1 hook blower to motor with some 3" flex vent pipe and let blower run
> > > whenever key is on . The problem with this is it would be always
> running
> > > (noise and would drain power all the time, )
> > > 2 power blower from motor/controller . this way blower only sees
> the
> > > voltage that across the GE motor and would be off when not moving .
> > Wouldn't
> > > get a lot of air at slow speeds and this would be quieter and when
your
> > > moving the noise won't be so loud.
> > > 3 forget the blower altogether , the car has some side scoops and can
> > easily
> > > run 3" flex vent pipe from the sides to the motor.
> > > of course 1 is the safest and 3 is the nicest.
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I too am planning on using Li-Ions.
The only tricky bit I see is there is not a lot of info about how electrically robust
these batteries are.
Things like:
How much does it impact the long term life of the batteries to draw large current from
them (>3C)?
What happens during the equalisation stage of charging?
Will these batteries need regulators to prevent overcharging during equalisation?
What options are available as far as BMS is concerned?
How well will they perform after 5 years of typical EV use?
There's a huge amount of experience and knowledge on this list about these things and
lead acid batteries, but not much about other chemistries.
I guess it is up to people like Victor (Li-Ion) and Joe (Evercell) to try these things
out and see how they go - and let us know what they think so we can make informed
decisions.
Hey Victor - have you got to the 500 battery mark yet?
(For people wanting Li-Ion batts)
Interesting point - The Thunder-Sky price list quotes about 1/3 the price per cell for
quantities above 10,000 - this pretty blatantly says that if enough people start using
these batteries, they'll get nice and cheap. (Who knows if they'll ever get new lead
acids?)
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, 11 February 2003 1:33 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Money talk (was: General Battery Concensus)
"John G. Lussmyer" wrote:
>
> One thing I've been trying to do while looking at batteries is to look at
> $/mi for the pack.
> This has to take into account:
> A) Average trip length (i.e. average DOD)
> B) $ for the pack
> C) Useful cycle life with the above DOD.
> Of course the DOD for a given trip changes for each type of battery, so you
> can't just use 50% DOD for all battery types.
> Example: My Sparrow with a 27 mile commute is about a 90% DOD for Optimas,
> but would probably only be about a 40% DOD for a LiIon pack.
This is correct; all conditions (range) must be equal to compare
the pack. The same person/car will go the same distances if the battery
type will be ever switched, so for a given person it's relevant how
much he pays for the pack per it's life, which is different because
of different DODs. You may get surprising results.
Example:
My current pack of 27 Optimas $125 each (not counting mistakes :-) ),
$3,375. 43 useful Ah * 340V = 14,628 Wh pack. Discharged to 80% DOD
means 11,703 Wh spent and I can do it 220 (Manufacturer rated) times.
11,703 Wh*220=2,574,660 Wh moved over life, and I have to throw away
the pack. I paid $3,375/2,574,660=$0,0013/Wh or $1.3/kWh over life.
LiIon: 100 cell 100 Ah 3.6V each, 36,000 Wh pack, $15,000.
Going the same distance as above, requiring 11,703 Wh will bring
it to just 11,703*100/36,000=32.5% DOD, and my pack then is lasting
for 3000 cycles at this DOD (estimation, based on Thunder-sky data)
over life. I move 11,703*3,000=35,109,000 Wh, and throw away the pack.
I paid $15,000/35109000=$0,000427/Wh or $0,427 per Wh over life.
Conclusions (for my situation only, and I assume BMS cost is about
the same, $1000 difference won't make any real difference, here
is why):
1. LiIon pack end up more than 3 times cheaper than YT Optimas over
life (provided I keep replacing Optimas during life of LiIons).
2. Charged once a day optima last for 220 days, 7.3 month.
LiIon last for 3000 days or 8 years 4 month. During that time
I'd have to replace 3000/220=13.6 YT packs.
The cost of 13.6 YT packs is $3,375*13.6=$45,900
4. This all is not to mention a fun light car all these years
and not having problems with beefing suspension, for PbA,
handling, braking, etc. Something hard to estimate in dollars,
but you see a big picture.
The only turn off is large up front investment. But it's
like a mortgage if you don't buy your house outright.
Few can, but in case of batteries shelling out $15k
I can survive (worst case - take a loan).
So you decide whether you want to pay $15k one time or
spread about $46k over 8 years in $3,375 portions every
7.3 month. Don't forget, you provide pack replacement
free fun labor too, 13 times. Don't know about you guys,
but I'm fed up after my 3rd pack replacement...
Disclaimer: check my math.
Statement: I'll do LiIon regardless of my math :-)
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Past the whole thing in and it will work. ut/Chapter00003.htm Ad this
after it says it doesn't work. The url is just too long. Lawrence
Rhodes...........
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 1:43 PM
Subject: Re: Tom Swift and his Electric Runabout
> On 9 Feb 2003 at 10:37, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>
> >
http://www.mastertexts.com/Appleton_Victor/Tom_Swift_and_his_Electric_Runabo
> > ut/Chapter00003.htm
> > Lawrence Rhodes........
> >
>
> It returns 404 for me ...
>
> "File not found!
>
> The file you requested does not exist. "
>
> David Roden
> Akron OH USA
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I wonder if the price of Li-Ions will ever get NEAR lead acids.
(sorry)
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Fowler
Sent: Tuesday, 11 February 2003 8:25 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Money talk (was: General Battery Concensus)
I too am planning on using Li-Ions.
.. blah blah blah ...
Interesting point - The Thunder-Sky price list quotes about 1/3 the price per cell for
quantities above 10,000 - this pretty blatantly says that if enough people start using
these batteries, they'll get nice and cheap. (Who knows if they'll ever get new lead
acids?)
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You could use two ferro resonant PFC transformers with separate bridge
rectifiers with the DC outputs paraleled together and have a 120V plug for
when that's available powering one transformer and a 240plug that powers
both with the 120V primaries in series. That way the other primary would be
dead and not backfeed under 120V operation.
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 1:08 AM
Subject: Re:Charging safety
> On 9 Feb 2003 at 18:15, michael bearden wrote:
>
> > this adaptor is for use where I do not have a 220/240 volt
> > receptacle available.
>
> I think either a step-up transformer or a dual-voltage charger would be
> safer. The former would be heavy, though, and the latter would cost
extra.
>
> > If I only have one
> > leg of the 120 plugged in, there is zero voltage across any of the
exposed
> > connections on the second 120v male plug.
>
> The charger is an open circuit? As I see it, that would have to be the
case
> for this to be true.
>
> Suppose the charger is connected to the adapter, and one hot leg is
plugged
> in and the other is not. Current will flow from the connected plug,
through
> the charger, to the disconnected plug, through a person picking up that
plug
> and contacting the hot pin, and on to ground. That person could be
injured
> for obvious reasons. If it's a small child or someone infirm, or water is
> about, electrocution becomes more likely.
>
> Or am ^I^ missing something?
>
> > This adaptor can only
> > be employed by someone who can read and interpret a voltmeter-
> > otherwise you
> > can't know if you have 2 discrete circuits, or two receptacles
> > on the same circuit.
>
> Or someone willing to experiment, plugging them into various receptacles
> until it works.
>
> > I can see a very possible hazard in going the other
> > way- that is to split a 240 supply to create two 120v circuits-
> > because in that case, you have no true neutral, only the
> > ground for a false neutral.
>
> Absolutely true if your 240v has no neutral. However, most range and
dryer
> receptacles do have a neutral. That said, remember that their overcurrent
> protection is suited to 30 or 50 amp loads, not to smaller ones.
>
> Please forgive me: Rationalize all you want; that doesn't make this
adapter
> safe!
>
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
> switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
> thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
COMPANIES TO WATCH
ThinGap Motor Technologies, a Ventura, CA-based motor manufacturer, uses a
new winding technology to eliminate eddy current and hysteresis losses in
brush type and brushless motors. The patented technology has applications
where high electrical efficiency and high power are required in a small
package.
The devices are manufactured without the use of magnet wire in either the
armature or stator. The new coil technology is not restricted by the
design limitations of conventional wire wound devices. The ThinGap(tm)
armature and stator designs, and unique manufacturing process, use
proprietary equipment to produce motors with a narrow magnetic air gap.
The technology is being applied to the design of low-inertia, ironless
core brush motors that feature high speed and rapid acceleration. Brushless
motors, with high-inertia rotors, are powering non-uniform load applications
where electrical conservation or battery life is critical.
Electric motors built with ThinGap coils have high power-to-weight
ratios, zero cogging or ripple torque, lower heat generation, no iron
losses, lower electrical resistance, and quiet operation.
Visit http://link.abpi.net/l.php?20030211A4 for more information.
Joe Buford
310-416-9319
Boeing Satellite Systems
702 \O/
[XXXXX]-H-[XXXXX]
/0\ GEO
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For anyone still having a problem viewing this try:
http://snurl.com/r4t
I have been seeing a lot of issues with long urls, sometimes 4 and 5 lines
long on other lists i'm on. I have been using the above "free" service for a
little while and it works pretty well. There are other ways but this is
pretty foolproof for all mail readers. To make your own "snipped" url's you
can go to http://www.snurl.com/ and even install an add on to your web
browser to snip the page your currently viewing.
Note: snipurl.com has to be able to see the site to password protected sites
and firewalled sites won't work :-( (I wish it was blind)
Lawrence Rhodes writes:
Past the whole thing in and it will work. ut/Chapter00003.htm Ad this
after it says it doesn't work. The url is just too long. Lawrence
Rhodes...........
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 1:43 PM
Subject: Re: Tom Swift and his Electric Runabout
On 9 Feb 2003 at 10:37, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>
http://www.mastertexts.com/Appleton_Victor/Tom_Swift_and_his_Electric_Runabo
> ut/Chapter00003.htm
> Lawrence Rhodes........
>
It returns 404 for me ...
"File not found!
The file you requested does not exist. "
David Roden
Akron OH USA
Mark Hastings
'83 S-10 EV Blazer
www.geocities.com/evblazer
--- End Message ---
