EV Digest 2585
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: GE "9 motor cooling
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Money talk (was: General Battery Concensus)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Propulse
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) Re: source for 1/0 shielded wire
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5) Re: High Voltag Contactors
by "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Nedra in Vegas 2003
by michael bearden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: source for 1/0 shielded wire
by "David McAlister" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: General Battery Concensus
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Send This Letter!
by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Money talk (was: General Battery Concensus)
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Money talk (was: General Battery Concensus)
by Gordon Niessen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: GE "9 motor cooling
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: High Voltage Contactors
by Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: source for 1/0 shielded wire
by "Cliff Rassweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) EVLN(EVs win 3 Awards from Chicago World of Wheels)
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Money talk (was: General Battery Concensus)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Money talk (was: General Battery Concensus)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: source for 1/0 shielded wire
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: GE "9 motor cooling
by "George Tylinski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
This would be a good way to experiment with PWM's and maybe later I'll try
this , but for now I have to keep it simple .
What did you use for the PWM ?
---- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 3:24 PM
Subject: Re: GE "9 motor cooling
> 4. Put a thermistor on the motor that controlled a PWM controller to
control
> the fan motor. The hotter the motor gets, the faster the blower runs. I
have
> this in my car and it works much better than the other three options.
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 5:34 PM
> Subject: GE "9 motor cooling
>
>
>
> > Here is what I'm thinking of right now
> > 1 hook blower to motor with some 3" flex vent pipe and let blower run
> > whenever key is on . The problem with this is it would be always
running
> > (noise and would drain power all the time, )
> > 2 power blower from motor/controller . this way blower only sees
the
> > voltage that across the GE motor and would be off when not moving .
> Wouldn't
> > get a lot of air at slow speeds and this would be quieter and when your
> > moving the noise won't be so loud.
> > 3 forget the blower altogether , the car has some side scoops and can
> easily
> > run 3" flex vent pipe from the sides to the motor.
> > of course 1 is the safest and 3 is the nicest.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"John G. Lussmyer" wrote:
>
> One thing I've been trying to do while looking at batteries is to look at
> $/mi for the pack.
> This has to take into account:
> A) Average trip length (i.e. average DOD)
> B) $ for the pack
> C) Useful cycle life with the above DOD.
> Of course the DOD for a given trip changes for each type of battery, so you
> can't just use 50% DOD for all battery types.
> Example: My Sparrow with a 27 mile commute is about a 90% DOD for Optimas,
> but would probably only be about a 40% DOD for a LiIon pack.
This is correct; all conditions (range) must be equal to compare
the pack. The same person/car will go the same distances if the battery
type will be ever switched, so for a given person it's relevant how
much he pays for the pack per it's life, which is different because
of different DODs. You may get surprising results.
Example:
My current pack of 27 Optimas $125 each (not counting mistakes :-) ),
$3,375. 43 useful Ah * 340V = 14,628 Wh pack. Discharged to 80% DOD
means 11,703 Wh spent and I can do it 220 (Manufacturer rated) times.
11,703 Wh*220=2,574,660 Wh moved over life, and I have to throw away
the pack. I paid $3,375/2,574,660=$0,0013/Wh or $1.3/kWh over life.
LiIon: 100 cell 100 Ah 3.6V each, 36,000 Wh pack, $15,000.
Going the same distance as above, requiring 11,703 Wh will bring
it to just 11,703*100/36,000=32.5% DOD, and my pack then is lasting
for 3000 cycles at this DOD (estimation, based on Thunder-sky data)
over life. I move 11,703*3,000=35,109,000 Wh, and throw away the pack.
I paid $15,000/35109000=$0,000427/Wh or $0,427 per Wh over life.
Conclusions (for my situation only, and I assume BMS cost is about
the same, $1000 difference won't make any real difference, here
is why):
1. LiIon pack end up more than 3 times cheaper than YT Optimas over
life (provided I keep replacing Optimas during life of LiIons).
2. Charged once a day optima last for 220 days, 7.3 month.
LiIon last for 3000 days or 8 years 4 month. During that time
I'd have to replace 3000/220=13.6 YT packs.
The cost of 13.6 YT packs is $3,375*13.6=$45,900
4. This all is not to mention a fun light car all these years
and not having problems with beefing suspension, for PbA,
handling, braking, etc. Something hard to estimate in dollars,
but you see a big picture.
The only turn off is large up front investment. But it's
like a mortgage if you don't buy your house outright.
Few can, but in case of batteries shelling out $15k
I can survive (worst case - take a loan).
So you decide whether you want to pay $15k one time or
spread about $46k over 8 years in $3,375 portions every
7.3 month. Don't forget, you provide pack replacement
free fun labor too, 13 times. Don't know about you guys,
but I'm fed up after my 3rd pack replacement...
Disclaimer: check my math.
Statement: I'll do LiIon regardless of my math :-)
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 01:00 10/02/03 -0500, you wrote:
>What ever happened to AC drive manufacturer Propulse?
>
>-Sam Harper
>From what I hear, as of around a year ago, (one of the people involved in
Propulse is personally known to a friend) is as follows:
The Propulse factory is in the former Yugoslavia part of Europe, and has
been unable to be operated for a while due to the surrounding
"environment". They have been attempting to get production back on track. I
will see if my friend has heared anything more recent and post anything
that is known.
James Massey
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 09:29 10/02/03 -0500, you wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I need to extend the cables from a Siemen's AC motor to the controller. The
>cables look like about 1/0 or 2/0 but are unusual in that they are shielded
>and grounded to the case of the motor. Does anybody know a place that I can
>order 25 feet of shielded 1/0 cable?
>
>Thanks
>
>Cliff
>
>www.ProEV.com
Depending on how many conductors you require, and if each conductor is
screened to the rest or just an overall screen, a possibility as follows:
I asked my local industrial variable-frequency drive distributor about
35mm2 screened flexible cable for my conversion. 4 conductor (described as
3Core+Earth, but all conductors the same) with an overall screen is
available, no problems. (I intend to double up for my DC conversion, giving
70mm2 area with overall screen).
If each core is screened from each other, perhaps you could use 10mm 3C+E
and paralell all conductors in the cable.
Just an option,
James Massey
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 4:18 PM
Subject: Re: High Voltag Contactors
> Lee Hart wrote:
> >> I'd use two Albrights in series (or a double-pole with the poles in
> >> series).
>
> Rich Rudman wrote:
> > I would use Kilovac Czonkas or Bubbas from Rod at EVpart.com.
> > I would NOT use Albrights at greater than 156 VDC. If I was a Nedra
> > Tech inspector... You would have speced swtich gear or I would have
> > you on the trailer heading home.
>
> It is standard engineering practice to put multiple contacts in series
> to get higher voltage ratings. The individual contact voltage ratings
> can be added as long as you insure that they open and close together.
> A tech inspector shouldn't automatically reject this.
Multiple contacts in series can be used to increase the voltage rating IF
they are operated by a common mechanism that ensures that the sets
of contacts will open and close at the same time. Two or more
seperate contactors with their contacts wired in series can't be
depended on to operate at the same time and they probably won't.
Tom Shay
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think this is the event (EVent?) that I saw a story on in the San Francisco
Chronicle which looked to me like it was designed to showcase the Tango. It
includes a gymkhana and other events that the Tango should wipe like a wet
sponge.
Attention Rick Woodbury--Have you seen anything on this?
Michael B.
"Brian D. Hall" wrote:
> But a big event is being planned in Northern California, Bibendum ??at
> Infineon raceway, check out www.challengebibendum.com.
> Brian
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Shielded cable like you need should be available at any industrial
electrical supply house. It is used often for industrial inverter drives.
As Lee mentions in another post, you ain't gonna like the price.
BTW, Lee and Victor. The problem is not likely to be the inductance, but
rather the capacitance. Also, do the Siemens motors use encoder feedback?
If so, EMI from the motor leads can interfere with the encoder signal if
cable without the proper shielding is used. (I am fighting this problem now
at an OEM sight where a machine is temporarily wired with cheap cable.)
When Victor gets you the details of the recommended method of extending the
cables, follow them as best you can. Many inverters use shielding
connections that are not intuitive.
David (learning more than I really wanted to know about shielding and
grounding.)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cliff Rassweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 8:29 AM
Subject: source for 1/0 shielded wire
> Hi,
>
> I need to extend the cables from a Siemen's AC motor to the controller.
The
> cables look like about 1/0 or 2/0 but are unusual in that they are
shielded
> and grounded to the case of the motor. Does anybody know a place that I
can
> order 25 feet of shielded 1/0 cable?
>
> Thanks
>
> Cliff
>
> www.ProEV.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sam Harper wrote:
>> -Lead Acid : A good staple battery. Proven to provide adequate
>> service, though it does not have a high capacity
>> -Optima Yellow Top : A step up from the lead acid...
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Sam, be accurate not to mislead newbies. Yellow top *IS* lead acid.
> It's obvious what you're trying to say, but technically underlined
> statement makes little sense.
I agree. Perhaps it would be better to say "flooded lead acid" for the
first one, and "sealed lead-acid" for the second. Optima, Hawker,
Concorde, etc. are examples of sealed lead-acid batteries.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My People:
PLEASE help us convince CARB to uphold the Zero Emissions Vehicle Mandate.
The car companies do not want you to have any access to any of the new
technology as it will cut into their profits.
The technology exists today to make EVs that smoke'm AND get over 100 miles
of range.
They can put EVs on Mars (hey, six-wheel drive!) but we don't have the means
to have them here on Earth?
We're presently in the process of stopping our use of gasoline (down to a
tank a month).
If we can do it, anybody can.
Marv
PS: Wanna buy a nice used Volvo wagon?
PSPS: Even if you're not in CA send the letter anyway. Production EVs got
their start here, and if CARB caves on the ZEV Mandate, you will never
experience the thrill of pure, clean, electromotive power- except maybe on
the subway.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Victor-
what's the best way to get these Li-Ion batteries?
I remember you saying at our OEVA meeting last month that they cost
something like $300 each (Q:1) to $150 each (Q:100). That seems to match
your numbers below. I may be interested in these or the Evercels for my
electric boat project. I'd also like to know how to buy the Evercels.
Thanks---see you Thursday.
-Myles Twete, Portland
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 6:33 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Money talk (was: General Battery Concensus)
"John G. Lussmyer" wrote:
>
> One thing I've been trying to do while looking at batteries is to look at
> $/mi for the pack.
> This has to take into account:
> A) Average trip length (i.e. average DOD)
> B) $ for the pack
> C) Useful cycle life with the above DOD.
> Of course the DOD for a given trip changes for each type of battery, so
you
> can't just use 50% DOD for all battery types.
> Example: My Sparrow with a 27 mile commute is about a 90% DOD for Optimas,
> but would probably only be about a 40% DOD for a LiIon pack.
This is correct; all conditions (range) must be equal to compare
the pack. The same person/car will go the same distances if the battery
type will be ever switched, so for a given person it's relevant how
much he pays for the pack per it's life, which is different because
of different DODs. You may get surprising results.
Example:
My current pack of 27 Optimas $125 each (not counting mistakes :-) ),
$3,375. 43 useful Ah * 340V = 14,628 Wh pack. Discharged to 80% DOD
means 11,703 Wh spent and I can do it 220 (Manufacturer rated) times.
11,703 Wh*220=2,574,660 Wh moved over life, and I have to throw away
the pack. I paid $3,375/2,574,660=$0,0013/Wh or $1.3/kWh over life.
LiIon: 100 cell 100 Ah 3.6V each, 36,000 Wh pack, $15,000.
Going the same distance as above, requiring 11,703 Wh will bring
it to just 11,703*100/36,000=32.5% DOD, and my pack then is lasting
for 3000 cycles at this DOD (estimation, based on Thunder-sky data)
over life. I move 11,703*3,000=35,109,000 Wh, and throw away the pack.
I paid $15,000/35109000=$0,000427/Wh or $0,427 per Wh over life.
Conclusions (for my situation only, and I assume BMS cost is about
the same, $1000 difference won't make any real difference, here
is why):
1. LiIon pack end up more than 3 times cheaper than YT Optimas over
life (provided I keep replacing Optimas during life of LiIons).
2. Charged once a day optima last for 220 days, 7.3 month.
LiIon last for 3000 days or 8 years 4 month. During that time
I'd have to replace 3000/220=13.6 YT packs.
The cost of 13.6 YT packs is $3,375*13.6=$45,900
4. This all is not to mention a fun light car all these years
and not having problems with beefing suspension, for PbA,
handling, braking, etc. Something hard to estimate in dollars,
but you see a big picture.
The only turn off is large up front investment. But it's
like a mortgage if you don't buy your house outright.
Few can, but in case of batteries shelling out $15k
I can survive (worst case - take a loan).
So you decide whether you want to pay $15k one time or
spread about $46k over 8 years in $3,375 portions every
7.3 month. Don't forget, you provide pack replacement
free fun labor too, 13 times. Don't know about you guys,
but I'm fed up after my 3rd pack replacement...
Disclaimer: check my math.
Statement: I'll do LiIon regardless of my math :-)
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
But where are you buying your Li Ion pack from? And what about the
charger? Do you have a charger that you feel comfortable that it will keep
you pack running as long and health as your estimate?
I have tried contacting many sources for NiMH and Li Ion, but all are just
R&D or for larger commercial sales. They aren't selling simple modular
packs with which to build your own solution, or even a one size fits all
that you can build a EV around.
At 08:32 PM 2/10/2003, you wrote:
"John G. Lussmyer" wrote:
>
> One thing I've been trying to do while looking at batteries is to look at
> $/mi for the pack.
> This has to take into account:
> A) Average trip length (i.e. average DOD)
> B) $ for the pack
> C) Useful cycle life with the above DOD.
> Of course the DOD for a given trip changes for each type of battery, so you
> can't just use 50% DOD for all battery types.
> Example: My Sparrow with a 27 mile commute is about a 90% DOD for Optimas,
> but would probably only be about a 40% DOD for a LiIon pack.
This is correct; all conditions (range) must be equal to compare
the pack. The same person/car will go the same distances if the battery
type will be ever switched, so for a given person it's relevant how
much he pays for the pack per it's life, which is different because
of different DODs. You may get surprising results.
Example:
My current pack of 27 Optimas $125 each (not counting mistakes :-) ),
$3,375. 43 useful Ah * 340V = 14,628 Wh pack. Discharged to 80% DOD
means 11,703 Wh spent and I can do it 220 (Manufacturer rated) times.
11,703 Wh*220=2,574,660 Wh moved over life, and I have to throw away
the pack. I paid $3,375/2,574,660=$0,0013/Wh or $1.3/kWh over life.
LiIon: 100 cell 100 Ah 3.6V each, 36,000 Wh pack, $15,000.
Going the same distance as above, requiring 11,703 Wh will bring
it to just 11,703*100/36,000=32.5% DOD, and my pack then is lasting
for 3000 cycles at this DOD (estimation, based on Thunder-sky data)
over life. I move 11,703*3,000=35,109,000 Wh, and throw away the pack.
I paid $15,000/35109000=$0,000427/Wh or $0,427 per Wh over life.
Conclusions (for my situation only, and I assume BMS cost is about
the same, $1000 difference won't make any real difference, here
is why):
1. LiIon pack end up more than 3 times cheaper than YT Optimas over
life (provided I keep replacing Optimas during life of LiIons).
2. Charged once a day optima last for 220 days, 7.3 month.
LiIon last for 3000 days or 8 years 4 month. During that time
I'd have to replace 3000/220=13.6 YT packs.
The cost of 13.6 YT packs is $3,375*13.6=$45,900
4. This all is not to mention a fun light car all these years
and not having problems with beefing suspension, for PbA,
handling, braking, etc. Something hard to estimate in dollars,
but you see a big picture.
The only turn off is large up front investment. But it's
like a mortgage if you don't buy your house outright.
Few can, but in case of batteries shelling out $15k
I can survive (worst case - take a loan).
So you decide whether you want to pay $15k one time or
spread about $46k over 8 years in $3,375 portions every
7.3 month. Don't forget, you provide pack replacement
free fun labor too, 13 times. Don't know about you guys,
but I'm fed up after my 3rd pack replacement...
Disclaimer: check my math.
Statement: I'll do LiIon regardless of my math :-)
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> 4. Put a thermistor on the motor that controlled a PWM controller
>> to control the fan motor. The hotter the motor gets, the faster
>> the blower runs. I have this in my car and it works much better
>> than the other three options.
Steve Clunn wrote:
> This would be a good way to experiment with PWM's and maybe later
> I'll try this, but for now I have to keep it simple. What did you
> use for the PWM?
Someone who looks a lot like me, but is really quite mad says:
You already have a PWM controller; the one that runs your big traction
motor. Your vacuum cleaner motor is a series motor, too. Just connect it
to the PWM controller's output, in parallel with the traction motor, and
the fan speed will vary up and down with the throttle just like the
traction motor. This imitates what a traction motor's built-in fan does.
But, this isn't necessarily what you want. You'd rather have the fan
speed controlled more by the traction motor's current (maximum cooling
at maximum current). So, wire the vacuum cleaner motor across just the
traction motor's field. This is a PWM signal that gets larger as
traction motor current increases.
(The voice of reason says this probably won't work with a 120vac vacuum
cleaner motor, because the field voltage is too low. But it should work
with a 12v PM DC fan motor with a bridge rectifier and an external
inductor).
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My advice is to use two Kilovac Kizonka III's in parallel. They are
rated 250 amps continuous which would give you 500 amps continuous
and they are made for 300 volt systems. Two of them cost about the
same as a single Allbright and they have a coil economizer built in.
Roderick
Roderick Wilde, President, EV Parts Inc.
Your Online EV Superstore
www.evparts.com
1-888-EV Parts (387-2787)
Phone: 425-672-7977 Fax: 425-672-7907
18908 Highway 99, Suite B
Lynnwood, WA 98036-5218
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 4:18 PM
Subject: Re: High Voltag Contactors
Lee Hart wrote:
>> I'd use two Albrights in series (or a double-pole with the poles in
>> series).
Rich Rudman wrote:
> I would use Kilovac Czonkas or Bubbas from Rod at EVpart.com.
> I would NOT use Albrights at greater than 156 VDC. If I was a Nedra
> Tech inspector... You would have speced swtich gear or I would have
> you on the trailer heading home.
It is standard engineering practice to put multiple contacts in series
to get higher voltage ratings. The individual contact voltage ratings
can be added as long as you insure that they open and close together.
A tech inspector shouldn't automatically reject this.
Multiple contacts in series can be used to increase the voltage rating IF
they are operated by a common mechanism that ensures that the sets
of contacts will open and close at the same time. Two or more
seperate contactors with their contacts wired in series can't be
depended on to operate at the same time and they probably won't.
Tom Shay
--
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor,
One motor is 4.5 feet from the controller. The other motor is 3 feet from
it's controller. I think the existing cables are about 2 feet long. I was
planning to redo the splice where it comes out of the motor and have one
length of cable rather than spice on to the existing cable. Any feelings on
this?
My handy-dandy table says 35 mm^2 is closest to 2 guage (33.695 mm^2). 1/0
guage is 52.951 mm^2.
Please check on KNDS cable. Espectialy how long it will take to get. And are
there special lugs I should use on the inverter end?
Thanks
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 6:46 PM
Subject: Re: source for 1/0 shielded wire
> Cliff, I just got some more accurate update on this. If you extend
> the cables, the shielding quality affects overall operation much more
> than length of extension, shields must be joined well and have no
> possibility to touch high voltage terminals. The cable type is
> KNDS according to SN 53140, I realize this doesn't tell you much
> in the USA. Cable cross-section: 35 mm^2
>
> Bottom line - try to minimize extension length, but if you have to,
> I've been told that it's acceptable. If you can wait with this,
> I can deliver KNDS cable to you, I need to know the length you need
> and find out how much time will it take to get it from overseas.
>
> Victor
>
>
> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> >
> > Cliff, avoid extending these cables. Their inductance is calibrated
> > and is taken into account in inverter's software. Changing
> > inductance without adjusting software (degrading performance) may
> > cause parasitic oscillations and voltage spikes. This issue is more
> > complicated that may seem. In any case, keep all phases cables the
> > same length. I suppose couple of inches extra is acceptable.
> >
> > How much extra do you need? Is there a way to move inverter closer?
> >
> > Cliff Rassweiler wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I need to extend the cables from a Siemen's AC motor to the
controller. The
> > > cables look like about 1/0 or 2/0 but are unusual in that they are
shielded
> > > and grounded to the case of the motor. Does anybody know a place that
I can
> > > order 25 feet of shielded 1/0 cable?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(EVs win 3 Awards from Chicago World of Wheels)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV informational
purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}[Our thanks to Kevin]
Battery Powered Vehicles Earn Three Awards at Chicago World of
Wheels!
[Chicago, Illinois] February 3, 2003. Netgain Technologies, LLC's
entered into its third year of competition at the International Show
Car Association's (ISCA) Annual CarQuest "World of Wheels" car show
held at McCormick Place in Chicago, Illinois on January 31 thru
February 2.
This renown car show attracted over 480 competing and custom display
vehicles. Over 180,000 people braved Chicago's inclement weather to
view all the spectacular vehicles on display.
NetGain displayed two battery powered electric vehicles. Always a
major crowd pleaser, the battery powered dragster, "Bad Amplitude"
was
on display. This unique electric vehicle was awarded two prestigious
awards; Second Place Dragster and Best Engineered Vehicle.
NetGain's Crew Chief, John Spooner, was especially pleased when he
learned of the vehicle again claiming the title of Best Engineered
Vehicle. "As an engineering company, it it thrilling to have your
piers recognize the engineering efforts that go into such an unusual
vehicle. Winning this award three years in a row shows how impressed
the judges have consistently been with our efforts." Spooner said.
NetGain also displayed a Ford Ranger pick-up truck that had been
converted to an electric vehicle. The electric powered pick-up truck
was awarded Third Place - Mini Pick-Up, a unique accomplishment when
entered into a largely contested category with over 25 entries. This
truck was converted to electric power as a class project by students
at Triton College in River Grove, Illinois. Sponsored by the Fox
Valley Electric Auto Association (FVEAA), the conversion project was
headed by NetGain's lead design engineer, John Emde. "We are proud
of
the students who completed this truck and FVEAA members who made this
student project possible." Emde said.
"My favorite part of these shows is walking up to the kids gawking at
the race car, then asking them if they want to sit in it." said Kevin
Zak, vice president of NetGain. "We offer to take a free picture of
people while sitting inside our dragster, then post it to our web
site. The look on the kids faces as they sit inside a real race car
is
better that any award we have ever won," Zak said.
NetGain has established a collaboration with NASA to utilize some
unique aerospace technology in their alternative fuel vehicles and
anticipates widespread application in the near future; having a
positive effect on the environment, fossil fuel reserves and the
economic aspects of daily driving.
NetGain will continue to exhibit its vehicles at car shows across the
Midwest and is anxiously waiting the start of the local racing
season.
For more information, Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you want, will talk about it this Thursday on OEVA meeting.
Victor
Myles Twete wrote:
>
> Hi Victor-
> what's the best way to get these Li-Ion batteries?
> I remember you saying at our OEVA meeting last month that they cost
> something like $300 each (Q:1) to $150 each (Q:100). That seems to match
> your numbers below. I may be interested in these or the Evercels for my
> electric boat project. I'd also like to know how to buy the Evercels.
> Thanks---see you Thursday.
>
> -Myles Twete, Portland
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
> Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
> Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 6:33 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Money talk (was: General Battery Concensus)
>
> "John G. Lussmyer" wrote:
> >
> > One thing I've been trying to do while looking at batteries is to look at
> > $/mi for the pack.
> > This has to take into account:
> > A) Average trip length (i.e. average DOD)
> > B) $ for the pack
> > C) Useful cycle life with the above DOD.
> > Of course the DOD for a given trip changes for each type of battery, so
> you
> > can't just use 50% DOD for all battery types.
> > Example: My Sparrow with a 27 mile commute is about a 90% DOD for Optimas,
> > but would probably only be about a 40% DOD for a LiIon pack.
>
> This is correct; all conditions (range) must be equal to compare
> the pack. The same person/car will go the same distances if the battery
> type will be ever switched, so for a given person it's relevant how
> much he pays for the pack per it's life, which is different because
> of different DODs. You may get surprising results.
>
> Example:
>
> My current pack of 27 Optimas $125 each (not counting mistakes :-) ),
> $3,375. 43 useful Ah * 340V = 14,628 Wh pack. Discharged to 80% DOD
> means 11,703 Wh spent and I can do it 220 (Manufacturer rated) times.
> 11,703 Wh*220=2,574,660 Wh moved over life, and I have to throw away
> the pack. I paid $3,375/2,574,660=$0,0013/Wh or $1.3/kWh over life.
>
> LiIon: 100 cell 100 Ah 3.6V each, 36,000 Wh pack, $15,000.
> Going the same distance as above, requiring 11,703 Wh will bring
> it to just 11,703*100/36,000=32.5% DOD, and my pack then is lasting
> for 3000 cycles at this DOD (estimation, based on Thunder-sky data)
> over life. I move 11,703*3,000=35,109,000 Wh, and throw away the pack.
> I paid $15,000/35109000=$0,000427/Wh or $0,427 per Wh over life.
>
> Conclusions (for my situation only, and I assume BMS cost is about
> the same, $1000 difference won't make any real difference, here
> is why):
>
> 1. LiIon pack end up more than 3 times cheaper than YT Optimas over
> life (provided I keep replacing Optimas during life of LiIons).
>
> 2. Charged once a day optima last for 220 days, 7.3 month.
> LiIon last for 3000 days or 8 years 4 month. During that time
> I'd have to replace 3000/220=13.6 YT packs.
>
> The cost of 13.6 YT packs is $3,375*13.6=$45,900
>
> 4. This all is not to mention a fun light car all these years
> and not having problems with beefing suspension, for PbA,
> handling, braking, etc. Something hard to estimate in dollars,
> but you see a big picture.
>
> The only turn off is large up front investment. But it's
> like a mortgage if you don't buy your house outright.
> Few can, but in case of batteries shelling out $15k
> I can survive (worst case - take a loan).
>
> So you decide whether you want to pay $15k one time or
> spread about $46k over 8 years in $3,375 portions every
> 7.3 month. Don't forget, you provide pack replacement
> free fun labor too, 13 times. Don't know about you guys,
> but I'm fed up after my 3rd pack replacement...
>
> Disclaimer: check my math.
> Statement: I'll do LiIon regardless of my math :-)
>
> Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gordon Niessen wrote:
>
> But where are you buying your Li Ion pack from?
Order from Thunder-sky directly.
> And what about the
> charger? Do you have a charger that you feel comfortable that it will keep
> you pack running as long and health as your estimate?
Manufacturer recommends simple CC/CV alg, not even temp compensated.
Don't ever exceed max voltage, stop accurately, keep cells in balance
and you're in good shape. PFC-20 can handle it easily. Preferred
accuracy of the CV portion must be about 1% though.
Joe, Rich, can you maintain set voltage to +/-1%?
> I have tried contacting many sources for NiMH and Li Ion, but all are just
> R&D or for larger commercial sales. They aren't selling simple modular
> packs with which to build your own solution, or even a one size fits all
> that you can build a EV around.
There are few LiIon sources you can buy from today - Saft,
Thunder-sky, Worley energy cells to name a few. Thunder-sky just
seem best deal money wise, especially for a large group purchase.
Dealing with them is difficult though.
Victor
> At 08:32 PM 2/10/2003, you wrote:
> >"John G. Lussmyer" wrote:
> > >
> > > One thing I've been trying to do while looking at batteries is to look at
> > > $/mi for the pack.
> > > This has to take into account:
> > > A) Average trip length (i.e. average DOD)
> > > B) $ for the pack
> > > C) Useful cycle life with the above DOD.
> > > Of course the DOD for a given trip changes for each type of battery, so you
> > > can't just use 50% DOD for all battery types.
> > > Example: My Sparrow with a 27 mile commute is about a 90% DOD for Optimas,
> > > but would probably only be about a 40% DOD for a LiIon pack.
> >
> >This is correct; all conditions (range) must be equal to compare
> >the pack. The same person/car will go the same distances if the battery
> >type will be ever switched, so for a given person it's relevant how
> >much he pays for the pack per it's life, which is different because
> >of different DODs. You may get surprising results.
> >
> >Example:
> >
> >My current pack of 27 Optimas $125 each (not counting mistakes :-) ),
> >$3,375. 43 useful Ah * 340V = 14,628 Wh pack. Discharged to 80% DOD
> >means 11,703 Wh spent and I can do it 220 (Manufacturer rated) times.
> >11,703 Wh*220=2,574,660 Wh moved over life, and I have to throw away
> >the pack. I paid $3,375/2,574,660=$0,0013/Wh or $1.3/kWh over life.
> >
> >LiIon: 100 cell 100 Ah 3.6V each, 36,000 Wh pack, $15,000.
> >Going the same distance as above, requiring 11,703 Wh will bring
> >it to just 11,703*100/36,000=32.5% DOD, and my pack then is lasting
> >for 3000 cycles at this DOD (estimation, based on Thunder-sky data)
> >over life. I move 11,703*3,000=35,109,000 Wh, and throw away the pack.
> >I paid $15,000/35109000=$0,000427/Wh or $0,427 per Wh over life.
> >
> >Conclusions (for my situation only, and I assume BMS cost is about
> >the same, $1000 difference won't make any real difference, here
> >is why):
> >
> >1. LiIon pack end up more than 3 times cheaper than YT Optimas over
> >life (provided I keep replacing Optimas during life of LiIons).
> >
> >2. Charged once a day optima last for 220 days, 7.3 month.
> >LiIon last for 3000 days or 8 years 4 month. During that time
> >I'd have to replace 3000/220=13.6 YT packs.
> >
> >The cost of 13.6 YT packs is $3,375*13.6=$45,900
> >
> >4. This all is not to mention a fun light car all these years
> >and not having problems with beefing suspension, for PbA,
> >handling, braking, etc. Something hard to estimate in dollars,
> >but you see a big picture.
> >
> >The only turn off is large up front investment. But it's
> >like a mortgage if you don't buy your house outright.
> >Few can, but in case of batteries shelling out $15k
> >I can survive (worst case - take a loan).
> >
> >So you decide whether you want to pay $15k one time or
> >spread about $46k over 8 years in $3,375 portions every
> >7.3 month. Don't forget, you provide pack replacement
> >free fun labor too, 13 times. Don't know about you guys,
> >but I'm fed up after my 3rd pack replacement...
> >
> >Disclaimer: check my math.
> >Statement: I'll do LiIon regardless of my math :-)
> >
> >Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cliff Rassweiler wrote:
>
> Victor,
>
> One motor is 4.5 feet from the controller. The other motor is 3 feet from
> it's controller. I think the existing cables are about 2 feet long. I was
> planning to redo the splice where it comes out of the motor and have one
> length of cable rather than spice on to the existing cable. Any feelings on
> this?
Please elaborate on this, I don't understand how are you planning to
proceed. I feel that more than doubling the length (4.5 feet from
2 feet) will present a problem, but I'll talk to the experts.
> My handy-dandy table says 35 mm^2 is closest to 2 guage (33.695 mm^2). 1/0
> guage is 52.951 mm^2.
I'd use gauge 2 or, very conservative gauge 1. Gauge 1/0 is overkill;
you won't be able to take any advantage from.
> Please check on KNDS cable. Espectialy how long it will take to get.
Will do.
> And are there special lugs I should use on the inverter end?
Not really, other that all 3 phases are fitted with different
size lugs (for M6, M8 and M10 studs) to prevent you from inadvertent
phase swapping. Torque them accordingly (6, 13 and 25 Nm +/-15%
respectively). All this info is in the manual supplied.
Victor
>
> Thanks
>
> Cliff
>
> www.ProEV.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 6:46 PM
> Subject: Re: source for 1/0 shielded wire
>
> > Cliff, I just got some more accurate update on this. If you extend
> > the cables, the shielding quality affects overall operation much more
> > than length of extension, shields must be joined well and have no
> > possibility to touch high voltage terminals. The cable type is
> > KNDS according to SN 53140, I realize this doesn't tell you much
> > in the USA. Cable cross-section: 35 mm^2
> >
> > Bottom line - try to minimize extension length, but if you have to,
> > I've been told that it's acceptable. If you can wait with this,
> > I can deliver KNDS cable to you, I need to know the length you need
> > and find out how much time will it take to get it from overseas.
> >
> > Victor
> >
> >
> > Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> > >
> > > Cliff, avoid extending these cables. Their inductance is calibrated
> > > and is taken into account in inverter's software. Changing
> > > inductance without adjusting software (degrading performance) may
> > > cause parasitic oscillations and voltage spikes. This issue is more
> > > complicated that may seem. In any case, keep all phases cables the
> > > same length. I suppose couple of inches extra is acceptable.
> > >
> > > How much extra do you need? Is there a way to move inverter closer?
> > >
> > > Cliff Rassweiler wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > I need to extend the cables from a Siemen's AC motor to the
> controller. The
> > > > cables look like about 1/0 or 2/0 but are unusual in that they are
> shielded
> > > > and grounded to the case of the motor. Does anybody know a place that
> I can
> > > > order 25 feet of shielded 1/0 cable?
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Random thoughts;
1. If the car has side scoops, use them as the fan intake, then you'll
have some silent reliable free forced cooling and you can experiment
with when to turn on the fan.
2. Thermostat in the motor exhaust air to control fan.
3. Infrared pyrometers (Raytek, etc.) can be had for less than $100,
hand held, battery operated. They can be pointed at the comm with no
fear of electrical shorts. Must be calibrated in some fashion to account
for the reflectivity of the bare copper since the low cost IR pyrometers
don't come with emissivity adjustment.
- GT
> -----Original Message-----
> From: 1sclunn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 5:35 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: GE "9 motor cooling
>
>
> I got the GE motor back from the motor repair place here in
> Florida with new com, and its all back together now ready to
> got into Paul's car (which has my kostof in it now) .
> There's no fan in the motor and has a cowling for a blower
> of some sort to go on the out side.
>
> I have a old old Hoover vacuum cleaner that I've stripped
> out (cut off the beater bar ect) which has a very nice
> looking motor (50 or so poles)and puts out lots of air ,. The
> motor is not like the newer one but looks like a fine piece
> and I've polished up the aluminum so it doesn't look like an
> old vacuum cleaner . I tried it out on 156 and it ran fine.
>
> Here is what I'm thinking of right now
> 1 hook blower to motor with some 3" flex vent pipe and let
> blower run whenever key is on . The problem with this is it
> would be always running (noise and would drain power all the time, )
> 2 power blower from motor/controller . this way blower
> only sees the
> voltage that across the GE motor and would be off when not
> moving . Wouldn't get a lot of air at slow speeds and this
> would be quieter and when your moving the noise won't be so
> loud. 3 forget the blower altogether , the car has some side
> scoops and can easily run 3" flex vent pipe from the sides to
> the motor. of course 1 is the safest and 3 is the nicest.
>
> could combine 1and 2 and till people that the air is spinning
> the blower which then is powering the big 9' and charging the
> batteries through the controller. driving into a strong wind
> would make the car go faster (that's a joke , please no
> flames). I would never say that here in Florida as there
> would be a stampede of believers.
>
>
> When (if ) I cooked it the first time the motor was really
> not hot (could
> put my hand on it) it was the armature that was hot
> (boiling spit) , Will
> try them all and stop and feel for heat . Any thoughts. Thanks
>
> Also when I was putting it together I noticed extra built
> holes which I
> believe were for making it go in the other direction ,
> tried them just to
> see and the motor did not run very well or fast ( tested on
> 12v ) switched direction and went much better. I an wondering
> if the lifting of the com bar was from maybe the motor being
> set up to run the other way . That first ride was not so
> long 10 minutes ))(it was a fast 10 minutes though) if this
> was the case it sure ran fast for being set in the wrong
> direction. . Steve Clunn
>
--- End Message ---
