EV Digest 2589
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: who had the great deal on ADC motors?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EV List help needed in Florida
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) Re: US Electricar Prizm on Ebay
by Alan Batie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: EV List help needed in Florida
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: General Battery Concensus
by John Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Battery Management (was: Money talk.......)
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) LiIons orientation info
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: High Voltage Contactors
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: US Electricar Prizm on Ebay
by "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: EV List help needed in Florida
by "Cliff Rassweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) 8" Advanced DC Motor for Sale
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Evercell cycling test cycle 309 report
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) EV trading post scam
by Randy Holmquist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) CARB Feb 27th hearing delayed until March 27th
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: EV For Sale
by "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Civic Hybrid Upgrade
by Adam Kuehn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) IMPORTANT Legislative Meetings in Oly. WA.
by "Steven S. Lough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) hi voltage contactors
by Daniel J Rivest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: ampabout
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Battery Management (was: Money talk.......)
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Think Wilde and Wayland got them. Lawrence Rhodes......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "ev" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 5:09 PM
Subject: who had the great deal on ADC motors?
> Someone here mentioned it a little while ago. Was it John Wayland, or
Damon?
>
> Or is my memory playing tricks on me?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Seth
> --
> vze3v25q@verizondotnet
>
--- End Message ---
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* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
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On Wed, Feb 12, 2003 at 11:49:43PM -0500, Christopher Zach wrote:
> I tracked the other three that were sold in my batch. Mine had the best
> batteries, but all four ran. T&L towing is fine; no problems with them and
> got a good rate myself.
Do you have a feel for the cost of shipping cross-country? FL to OR is
about as far as you can go roughly East/West and not get wet ;-)
> Plus it will go 100mph, and has it all.
For real? I was under the impression that most of the commercial
conversions ran at the low end of the performance curve. I'm also concerned
that it has an automatic transmission, and finally, that the batteries are
more accessible than they are on the S10s, especially as it will likely need
a new set. But it does look like a possible way for me to get back into
an electric...
--
Alan Batie ______ alan.batie.org Me
alan at batie.org \ / www.qrd.org The Triangle
PGPFP DE 3C 29 17 C0 49 7A \ / www.pgpi.com The Weird Numbers
27 40 A5 3C 37 4A DA 52 B9 \/ spamassassin.taint.org NO SPAM!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
FWIW, UPS has some bizzare policies for shipping things to individuals in
other countries (I don't know about between companies). I just tried to
ship a DC-DC back to the manufacturer in Canada. UPS holds it at a border
town and charges the recipient large fees and they have to come pick it up.
That's not fair to the recipient, and I certainly don't blame them for not
going and getting it. UPS didn't even want to ship it back to me. I did
get it back, but only by informing UPS that since it was insured they could
either give it back or give me my $300.
The manufacturer said that stuff shipped by the US post office will be
delivered to his door, but I need to write "made in Canada. This unit is
being returned to the manufacturer for diagnosis and repair" on the package.
So I'll try that approach next. Hopefully it will go well.
-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas Shay [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 10:26 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: EV List help needed in Florida
Why not just ship the motor to him in England via UPS? What's the point
of shipping it to Florida instead?
Tom Shay
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 7:09 PM
Subject: EV List help needed in Florida
> Hi All, I just received the following email from one of our customers
> in England. Is there any EV List members in Florida, preferably Miami
> where he could have an Etek motor shipped and stop by and pick it up
> when he is over here on vacation. Thanks much in advance for any help
> in this matter. The following is the message I was cc'd on:
>
> Roderick Wilde
IMPORTANT - THIS MESSAGE (INCLUDING ANY ATTACHMENTS) IS INTENDED ONLY FOR
THE USE OF THE INDIVIDUAL OR ENTITY TO WHICH IT IS ADDRESSED, AND MAY
CONTAIN INFORMATION THAT IS PRIVILEGED, CONFIDENTIAL AND EXEMPT FROM
DISCLOSURE UNDER APPLICABLE LAW. IF YOU ARE NOT THE INTENDED RECIPIENT, YOU
SHOULD DELETE THIS MESSAGE IMMEDIATELY AND YOU ARE HEREBY NOTIFIED THAT ANY
READING, DISSEMINATION, DISTRIBUTION OR COPYING OF THIS MESSAGE, OR THE
TAKING OF ANY ACTION BASED ON IT IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED. THANK YOU.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
NiMH does not necessarily have a limited cycle life. Toyota's RAV4 NiMH
modules have lasted 100,000 miles and are still going strong, according
to recent reports. That would make them as least as good as NiCd as far
as cycle life.
Jay
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you are planning to use Li-Ion batteries, you absolutely need an
automatic battery management system (BMS) that works on a cell level. To
run these cells without a BMS in place is foolhardy.
Lead acid batteries, like the several sets of Optima batteries you have
gone through, are pretty robust and will withstand a substantial amount of
abuse before failing. This is not the case with Li-Ion batteries. Minor
mistreatment will cause damage. Mistreatment with any regularity will cause
complete and rapid failure.
Self-discharge is a function of temperature and is also is strongly
altered by minor manufacturing differences. Charge efficiency is also a
function of temperature and is also strongly altered by minor manufacturing
differences. These differences "stack up" in a high-voltage pack. A
high-voltage pack can get out of balance quite easily and relatively quickly.
The statistics eat you alive. With each cell you add, the frequency and
severity of the imbalance increases Even though you might be able to "get
away with" no BMS on a low-voltage pack of three or four cells, it doesn't
extrapolate to many cells in series
There are a few computer Li-Ion battery packs that have three carefully
matched cells that have no balancing electronics. The manufacturer knows
that, say, 5% of these packs will fail in warranty. They also know that the
warranty replacement of 5% of their products costs less than installing the
balancing electronics. No BMS works for them because the pack voltage is
low, the cells are carefully manufactured, and the temperature of the three
adjacent cells will be closely matched.
Now let's run the same scheme on a pack with 90 cells. We now have 30
times the cells. The failure rate is now 5% X 30 = 150%. Zero battery packs
will survive through warranty.
It's even worse than that. The cells you are talking about buying are NOT
carefully matched. In a large pack, the temperature will vary greatly The
end cells will run close to ambient temperature and the interior cells will
run much hotter. In winter, there will be a major temperature gradient on
the pack. (The cables that go from the pack to the controller act as large
"fins" that transfer heat very well to and from the end cells/batteries.)
It's even worse than THAT. In a three-cell pack, a low or high cell
voltage will significantly alter the overall pack voltage. Thus, the extent
of overcharge or over-discharge is likely to be quite small. The device
with shut off or the charger will top out before the voltage gets too wild
on any one cell. In a high-voltage pack, the voltage of a single cell is
buried in the noise. The severity of the overcharge or over-discharge of a
single out-of-balance cell is much greater and failure will thus occur much
sooner in a high-voltage pack.
In a nutshell, without a BMS, high-voltage Li-Ion pack failure is a certainty.
>>>>>>>> Electrical engineering versus Mechanical or Chemical Engineering
<<<<<
When an electrical engineer designs a typical circuit, selects components,
and then builds the circuit, most of the time the circuit works just as
planned (unless a design error was made.) This is because electronic
components typically follow the spec. sheet closely, and are well-behaved.
When a chemical or mechanical engineer designs something, they are well
aware that the materials, components, and processes selected are NOT well
behaved and will typically NOT follow the spec. sheet closely every time.
They make designs that are forgiving and will have a built-in margin for
less-than-ideal conditions.
Batteries are more chemical or mechanical components than they are
electrical components. They are complicated, variable, and often don't
behave exactly the way the spec. sheet says they will. A battery management
system is the "margin" that makes the battery system "forgiving" when there
are manufacturing variations or there are less-than-ideal conditions.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
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--- Begin Message ---
For those who consider trying Thunder-sky LiIon cells, I finally
received reply to my Dec 2002 (!) email inquiry about possibility
to use the cells laying on their side. I was informed that any
orientation other than up side down is fine.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seth Murray wrote:
> It looks like the best option is just a single heavy duty Kilovac
> (how many contactors in the overall system has yet to be decided).
That can work if it is properly sized to break under the worst-case
conditions. However, I am a fan of redundant design. I will always have
at least two ways to break the power, as long as there is any chance
that one of them could fail closed.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Alan:
> Do you have a feel for the cost of shipping cross-country? FL to OR is
> about as far as you can go roughly East/West and not get wet ;-)
Don't know; it cost $500 to get it from Fla to MD. Really nice tow company.
> For real? I was under the impression that most of the commercial
> conversions ran at the low end of the performance curve. I'm also
concerned
> that it has an automatic transmission, and finally, that the batteries are
> more accessible than they are on the S10s, especially as it will likely
need
> a new set. But it does look like a possible way for me to get back into
> an electric...
For real, at least according to the speedo. Took everything to get it there,
but it is a pretty quick little car. No problems doing 70 on a warm day.
When it's cold like winter.... Well, she is a bit more pokey.
The transmission is interesting. It's actually locked into second gear
forever, and the motor has all the torque you need. Actually the motor and
controller have a nice programmed mode to put out lots of torque on the
bottom end, then once past 3600 it shifts into a speed mode. Really nice. It
does not have a torque converter that I can see or feel. Would screw with
the regen.
The batteries are a real pain to get to. You have to drop the whole pack
down; which requires a lot of stuff. Not impossible; but not simple. I've
found a pallet jack, a plate made of 1 inch plywood, 4*4's, and three jacks
do the job pretty well. And two engine hoists and an electric tractor :-)
It is without a doubt a nice conversion. These were the guys who designed
the EV1. Very clean job. The biggest weakness to be honest is it's main
feature: The fact that you need 300 volts to run the AC drive. This
percludes using T105's (you're going to fit 50 of them in there how :-) and
the Hawker Genesis batteries though tough are small and pack only a total
size of 15kw of lead. I guess I could put 25 80-100ah batteries in the back
seat and trunk, but I like having a back seat and trunk :-)
I love mine.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roderick,
If he is here for a month, shipping it where he is staying should not be an
issue. If it is, I live in Miami and you can set it up with me if you want.
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 10:09 PM
Subject: EV List help needed in Florida
> Hi All, I just received the following email from one of our customers
> in England. Is there any EV List members in Florida, preferably Miami
> where he could have an Etek motor shipped and stop by and pick it up
> when he is over here on vacation. Thanks much in advance for any help
> in this matter. The following is the message I was cc'd on:
>
> Roderick Wilde
>
>
> >Dear Justin, Thank you for your advice re UPS parcel delivery
> >within USA.
> >
> >Call me unthinking if you wish, but it honestly never occurred to me
> >that my attempt to buy an American electric traction motor and an
> >American motor - controller from an American retailer and to have it
> >delivered by an American firm to a place in America where I could
> >collect whilst on holiday in America would constitute a security
> >issue.
> >
> >Having made that point, I can see in these nervous times why the
> >idea of a parcel awaiting collection at an airport by an unknown
> >foreigner would need scrutiny.
> >
> >Here are my reasons to wish to do this
> >
> >I am a pensioner in England, with limited funds. I wish to adapt a
> >Two Wheel motor Vehicle ["TWMV"] from petrol power to electric
> >traction. Research and advice leads me to the belief that the best
> >value for money is an American electric traction motor [Briggs &
> >Stratton], and an American motor - controller [Curtis], to be
> >purchased from an American company [EVParts, Portland, Oregon], and
> >delivered by an American company [UPS], to whatever place in America
> >is best for me to collect it at the end of a month - long holiday,
> >[I aim to be in Florida from 09 March 2003 to 09 April 2003]
> >
> >[This is because pollution in England is a serious problem, petrol
> >in England cost the equivalent of $6.59c. PER GALLON (if my
> >arithmetic is right), we have climate change, so that when it is not
> >sunny it is often windy, and I next aim to buy an American wind -
> >driven electric generator and some American solar panels with which
> >to re - charge the (probably American - sourced) batteries of the
> >electric bike...............THAT'S IF I EVER GET THE MOTOR &
> >CONTROLLER....................]
> >I HOPE THE ABOVE PLUS THE FACT THAT I SIMPLY WANT TO SPEND SOME OF
> >MY HARD - EARNED MONEY IN AMERICA IS SOMEWHAT REASSURING
> >
> >If so, here are some simple questions --
> >1 Where [in Miami] would it be possible to ask EVParts to send
> >the motor and controller so that I could collect it at the end of my
> >holiday ?
> >2 What would it cost ?
> >3 Since phone calls to America are VERY expensive from England,
> >[even"Toll - Free..."], and my email is free with my phone provider,
> >.....
> >3.1 Is there an email address for UPS "Internal USA Services"
> >3.2 If so, is there any [security ...?] reason not to reveal it to me
?
> >
> >Please help me progress this environmentally - friendly electric
> >TWMV project if you possibly can, especially if it is just a matter
> >of an email address............
> >
> >Many thanks
> >
> >Ed. Gordon
>
> --
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We have an 8" XP-1227 Advanced DC Motor for sale for $1500.
With all the talk about 8 inch motors lately I thought I would mention it
and give List members a chance to buy it before we put it on E-Bay
The motor is new and has never been taken out of the crate.
I have an XP-1227 motor in my Escort and like it.
Chip Gribben
EVA/DC Webmaster
http://www.evadv.org
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--- Begin Message ---
The evercell being cycled to death has reached 309 cycles today. The updated
graphic is available at
http://www.manzanitamicro.com/evercel%20cycle%20309%20summary.gif
The latest capacity is 61.6 AHr (from an observed high of 83.2 AHr).
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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--- Begin Message ---
Just wondering if any one else has had this sort of "offer"
I realize this has nothing to do with the wonderful work that Mike puts
into the Trading post.
Just wanted others to be aware.
This is the third one of these I have had.
BFN
Randy
ubject:
treat urgently
Date:
Thu, 13 Feb 2003 22:48:49 +0800
From:
"mark vincent" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dear Randy,
I am happy to notify you that I am interested in
buying/acquiring
your Zapi 120 Volt H2 Controller and I am offering
US$1100
Please,if this offer is acceptable to you, get back to me with
the
necessary details and also how it will be picked up. I will
be needing:
* your full name and home address (note that P.O.Box is not
acceptable),
* your reconfirmed phone number (both home and mobile), and
* fax number (if possible).
As a matter of fact, one of my clients
based in U.S.A is owing me some money and the amount is $6,000
and on my request he shall forward a cashier check / amount to
you.
After deducting the cost, can I trust you to send the
rest of the amount (i.e the excess fund) to me via western
union money transfer. If you are ok with doing this favour for
me, get me the information needed to send the cashier check to
you.
Thank you for your cooperation while anticipating your earliest
response.
--
Canadian Electric Vehicles Ltd.
PO, Box 616, 1184 Middlegate Rd.
Errington, British Columbia,
Canada, V0R 1V0
Phone: (250) 954-2230
Fax: (250) 954-2235
Website: http://www.canev.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Manufactures of: "Might-E Truck"
EV conversion Kits and components
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Our thanks to Greg's efforts on this. See:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/think_ev/message/2122
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This brings up a question: As an owner of an AC drive EV I have to wonder
why everyone thinks that AC is the greatest thing since sliced bread?
Regen might be one point; while it is nice to see power going into the
batteries I don't think I get much more than 25% of the power back. And if
you're driving along, the most efficient thing is to *coast* whenever
possible rather than regen down a bit/accelerate a bit. And of course regen
should not kick in untill the batteries are at least 10% down anyway, and it
does require batteries that can take a 30kw charge peak (kind of knocks out
Gel cells for the Prizm).
The ability to run high voltage (300 volts) is nice in that it requires
smaller wires so to speak. However you're not going to be able to fit 50
T105's in the average anything, so either you use 12 volt batteries or
custom batteries. You knock out the cheapest solution. However in thinking
about it, your amp draw would be halved anyway, so it's not like it's *as*
bad as running 144 volts worth of 12 volt battereis in a low voltage car.
Maybe it's speed and/or acceleration: The Prizm is actually pretty quick,
esp compared to the Nickel-Iron Sepex I've ridden in.
What makes AC such a holy grail to have?
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 3:51 PM
Subject: Re: EV For Sale
> The drive train is worth more than the 12 grand. Lawrence Rhodes........
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 2:07 PM
> Subject: EV For Sale
>
>
> > For Sale: All Electric 1992 Saturn SL2
> >
> > Formerly the Chico State Advanced Vehicle Research and Development
(AVR&D)
> > Project Vehicle
> >
> > anyone who might be interested in purchasing Chico State's EV, formerly
a
> > hybrid.
> >
> > The Chico State AVR&D Vehicle - the second Saturn SL2 converted to all
> > electric power by Chico State engineering and technology students - is
> being
> > sold. The 1992 Saturn SL2 was purchased in 1995 and was converted to an
> > all-electric drive system, powered by an AC Propulsion Electric Motor
and
> > Controller with regenerative braking and hybrid connectivity. The motor
> and
> > controller are designed to work with an optional auxiliary power
source -
> > such as a gasoline engine - in a hybrid mode. The motor and controller
> are
> > currently powered by 26 deep-cycle lead-acid batteries. The battery
pack
> > can be charged by connection to 110 and 220 volt household current. The
> > vehicle has been driven only for testing and demonstration purposes in
the
> > past several years and has been garaged since its initial conversion.
The
> > chassis and interior are in excellent condition. The current range is
> > somewhat limited by the state of the current battery pack which needs
some
> > attention. When supplemented with a gasoline engine auxiliary power
unit,
> > the vehicle is capable of extended range travel as batteries are
recharged
> > while driving by a gasoline engine. This vehicle is completely street
> legal
> > with standard safety features and is perfect car for the hobbyist or
> student
> > of ultra-low emission vehicle technology.
> >
> > Bids for the vehicle purchase, as is, will be accepted through February
> > 28th, 2003. Bidding begins at $12,000.
> >
> > For information or bidding please contact
> >
> > Dr. Michael Ward, Associate Dean
> > College of Engineering, Computer Science, and Technology
> > California State University, Chico
> > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Phone: 530-898-4888
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
But, every degree of hybridization is possible, from 99% gas / 1%
electric to 1% gas / 99% electric. You could modify the car's control
systems (with difficulty) for any desired balance between gas and
electric.
Sure, it's possible, but I wonder how many combinations are truly
practical. It seems to me that one of the biggest advantages in the
current setup of the Insight/Prius is that there is virtually no
battery management since the DOD on the batteries is so low and when
the battery does get discharged it is immediately charged right up
again.
I have trouble envisioning a plug-in hybrid that would be
sufficiently bullet-proof for Joe Average. It seems to me that you
would want to build a car with effectively unlimited range (i.e. same
conditions as a current gasoline auto), but which would use primarily
battery power for shorter trips. But how do you handle the
middle-length trips without risking the pack? Would you always count
on the car being plugged in at the destination? How do you plan for
that when you don't know in advance how long the trip is? En route,
you'd have to have a pretty sophisticated algorithm in there for
monitoring state of charge and kicking in the gas engine before the
pack was put at risk, but that could have a dramatic effect on the
power available.
It seems to me that it would be a pretty tricky engineering problem
to get the performance that would sell and still have a car that
could reliably handle extended trips while it is expecting to be
recharged at some indefinable moment in the future.
I'm curious what you more technical types think of this problem.
--
-Adam Kuehn
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--- Begin Message ---
Here it is Boys and Girls. Told you I would let you know the MINUTE I
got an UP-Date
If you go to Oly. to testify or put in our 2Cents from a SEVA
perspective, we should CHAT
before you go down. Might even be able to spring for travel expenses a
little bit, or at least
co-ordinate a car-pool.
Here below are the schedules as I received them from Linda Graham, and
the PSCCC, moments ago:
HEARINGS SCHEDULED FOR
NEIGHBORHOOD ELECTRIC VEHICLE LEGISLATION
IN WASHINGTON STATE
Senate Bill 5450 and House Bill 1438
The hearings will take place the week of February 17, 2003
Senate Bill 5450:
The Senate Highways & Transportation Committee will take public comment
on Tuesday, February 18, 2003 at 3:30pm
J.A. Cherberg Building, Hearing Room 1
House Bill 1438:
The House Transportation Committee will take public comment on
Thursday, February 20, 2003 at 3:30pm
J.L. O'Brien Building, Hearing Room B
Testifying at the hearings is the most effective way to make your
position know. It is also beneficial to attend the hearing and simply
sign-in acknowledging your support if you are uncomfortable speaking.
If
you are unable to attend the hearing, written comments can be sent to
the appropriate committee.
QUICK TIPS ON TESTIFYING:
* There is no need to be nervous - but do come prepared!
* Keep in mind that you will likely have only 2 to 3 minutes to make
your comments. And the Committee Chairs do cut people off.
* Avoid simply duplicating the testimony of others. If others cover
your comments, you may wish to simply tell the chair that your comments
have already been covered and that you yield the floor to others.
Committee members will appreciate this more than hearing repeat
testimony and causing the meeting to run long.
* When you enter the hearing room, locate the sign-up sheet near the
entrance and write your name, address, and whether you favor or oppose
the bill. Also indicate whether or not you will be testifying.
See the attached "WA Legislative Involvement" for more information,
including a map of the Capitol Campus and parking areas. Be sure to
allow enough time to find parking.
If you plan to testify, please contact Linda J. Graham at
[EMAIL PROTECTED] or (206) 684-0935 so that testimony can be
coordinated. And if you have an NEV that we can display on Tuesday or
Thursday at the Capitol, please let me know - we will try to work this
out with the events coordinator.
Do not hesitate to contact the Puget Sound Clean Cities Coalition with
any questions.
Attachments:
- NEV fact sheet.doc: describes NEVs, how they are used, their
benefits, has pictures and describes the importance of this
legislation.
- NEVs 2003.txt: Copy of the bill text.
- SB5450 fiscal note.pdf: The fiscal note on SB5450, which indicates
revenue will be generated by the bills - a good thing!
Neighborhood electric vehicles (NEVs) are becoming an increasingly
popular vehicle choice throughout the country. These 4-wheeled vehicles
with a maximum speed of 25 mph are an excellent option for short-trip,
neighborhood or commute operation. The largest source of gasoline
vehicle emissions occurs during this type of short-trip operation. As
electric vehicles, NEVs have zero emissions and thus have the potential
to provide significant air quality benefits. And many parents find
comfort in knowing their teenagers cannot speed nor travel too far in
these vehicles.
Unfortunately, neighborhood electric vehicles cannot be used on public
roads in Washington State.
The two bills currently before the legislature will allow for the
licensing of NEVs just like other vehicles. Some key features of the
legislation:
* NEVs will be allowed to operate on streets having a speed limit of 35
mph or less.
* Local governments are given discretion to control access to
particular streets within their jurisdiction having a speed limit of
more than 25 mph.
* To be licensed, NEVs must meet federal safety regulations.
* Vehicle operators must have a valid driver's license and insurance.
HEARING SCHEDULED ON BIODIESEL AND ETHANOL LEGISLATION IN WASHINGTON
STATE
House Bills 1240, 1241
Thursday, February 20, 2003 8:00am
The House Finance Committee will take public comment in the John L.
O'Brien Building on the Capitol Campus in Olympia, Hearing Room C.
The House Finance Committee is the second step for these bills. They
were originally heard and approved by the Technology,
Telecommunications
and Energy Committee.
Please mark your calendars and plan to attend. Participation is
critical to ensure passage of this important legislation. Testifying
at
the hearing is the most effective way to make your position know. It
is
also beneficial to attend the hearing and simply sign-in acknowledging
your support. If you are unable to attend the hearing, written comments
can be sent to the appropriate committee.
If you are interested in speaking at the hearing or will otherwise be
involved, please contact us so that testimony can be coordinated.
QUICK TIPS ON TESTIFYING:
* There is no need to be nervous - but do come prepared.
* Keep in mind that you will likely have only 2 to 3 minutes to make
your comments. And the Committee Chairs do cut people off.
* Avoid simply duplicating the testimony of others. If others cover
your comments, you may wish to simply tell the chair that your comments
have already been covered and that you yield the floor to others.
Committee members will appreciate this more than hearing repeat
testimony and causing the meeting to run long.
* When you enter the hearing room, locate the sign-up sheet near the
entrance and write your name, address, and whether you favor or oppose
the bill. Also indicate whether or not you will be testifying.
See the attached "WA Legislative Involvement" for more information,
including a map of the Capitol Campus and parking areas. Be sure to
allow enough time to find parking.
These bills are part of a group of bills designed to promote the
biodiesel and ethanol fuel markets in Washington State. The specific
goals of these bills, along with other legislation that is being
developed, are in state production of biodiesel and ethanol, increased
supply and local availability of these fuels, lower fuel costs, and
increased demand. All resulting in improved air quality and energy
security.
Detailed information on these bills, and other relevant legislation,
can be found at:
http://www.cityofseattle.net/cleancities/2003%20State%20Legislation.htm
The following is an overview of the key provisions of each bill.
HB 1240 - Providing tax incentives for biodiesel and alcohol fuel
production.
- Sales and use tax deferrals on machines, equipment, labor, etc. to
construct biodiesel and ethanol production facilities in 'rural areas'
and empowerment zones' (this covers all but 4 counties in WA state).
The
deferred taxes need not be repaid if facilities meets requirements of
legislation for 7 years.
- Property tax exemption for biodiesel and ethanol production
facilities for 6 years after facility becomes operational. Amount of
exemption calculated based on gallons of biodiesel and ethanol
produced.
- Reduced Business & Occupation (B&O) tax rate for biodiesel and
ethanol production facilities (.138% compared to typical rate of .4%)
HB 1241 - Providing tax incentives for the distribution and retail sale
of biodiesel and alcohol fuels.
- Allows deduction of Business & Occupation (B&O) taxes owed from
retail sale or distribution of biodiesel or ethanol fuels.
- Exempts, in the form of a remittance, retail sales and use taxes on
purchase of equipment, labor and services related to creating biodiesel
and ethanol fueling and distribution services.
- Allows local governments the option to provide for similar retail
sales and use tax exemptions.
- Property tax exemption for biodiesel and ethanol retail sale and
distribution services, if at least 75% of activity is biodiesel or
ethanol fuel related.
For more information, contact:
Linda J. Graham, Puget Sound Clean Cities Coalition (206) 684-0935 or
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or
Jim Armstrong, Spokane County Conservation District
(509) 535-7274 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Linda J. Graham, Director
Puget Sound Clean Cities Coalition
618 2nd Avenue, Suite 1200
Seattle, Washington 98104
(206) 684-0935
cell (206) 310-4683
fax (206) 684-0656
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://pugetsoundcleancities.org
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 396-9189
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://slough1.home.mindspring.com/seva.html
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There are these contactors on e bay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=26211&item=2507676
828&rd=1
Daniel
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Last week, as part of an effort to complete needed tasks in
preparation of relocating out the area, I stopped by a local
store to bag some supplies for the trip (that's if no one
hires me and breaks this job drought I am having).
When I came back to my Blazer EV, I saw a bright red Think
City EV (Euro model), parked in front of Trader Joe's
(yuppie food store).
It was a sweet sight to see, as I knew not only were the
Euro models soon to be dragged away from the US drivers,
but if I move I won't see Think Citys (nor any other EV for
that matter).
It touched me so, I took a long hard look at this nice EV
that Ford abandoned. While all the ICE around the City were
smattered with dirt from the brief rain shower, the City's
plastic body looked as clean as new.
There was plenty of room (even for Big Bruce) inside. The
license plate holder said S & C Ford, so that SF dealership
must still be making City EVs available for lease (but
sadly, not for long).
The dash had a Sony radio w/ CD in it. The City EVs I had
driven at media EVents as part of the press, did not had
a radio mounted. The driver had his gym bag in the back.
This let me assume the driver was one of many Silicon
Valley professionals.
I stood gawking at the City EV as Trader Joe patrons tooled
their small carts to their ICE, not understanding why I was
pay so much attention to that car (what with that guy?).
My size already 'stands out' so I decided to drop the
tailgate on my blazer EV http://brucedp.150m.com/blazer/
and wait for the owner to chat with them.
I thought it was interesting to sit on my 85 Blazer
conversion that I had bought converted in 92 because
'I was'nt going to wait' for a production EV. All of the
effort I and the EV community put to push EV availability,
had come true with the availability of production EVs
like the Think City EV.
That sort of made my EV, a classic and the City EV, the
'state of the art'.
But no pats on the back would be enjoyed as there are
no new production EVs being made. We all will have to go
back the classic conversion if want to drive Electric.
...
The driver came out to his City EV and popped the hatch
to put his bags of organic and pesticide free food in the
large rear area of the City EV.
I walked over and introduced myself. Turns out Casey is
on the Think_EV discussion group and knew me. Like many
he was not sure if an EV would work for him, but the
ability to rent an EV, allowed him to know driving
Electric just was not that different and would work for
him.
I mentioned the dash control lever was positioned wrong,
as it could be hit by the knees of tall Californians (not
just me). Casey said he was giving a ride in his EV when
a passenger said 'whats this' and took the EV out of drive
while they were running on the road.
He was really happy with his City EV, and sad if I moved
out the area. But I assured him that I would still be
supporting the EV cause, just remotely (if you can't pay
the high cost of living in Silicon Valley, you move).
We said our good-byes, and he took off out of the parking
lot. I saw a couple that were about to load their bags
into their huge SUV, turn their heads and say to each other,
"Hey honey, look at the Electric ...".
That was enough for me to go talk to them (of course). They
were surprised to hear that Ford would stop production of
'such a nice little car'. They said they were from Europe
and it was hard for them to understand why it was hard to
get an EV and so easy to drive and SUV (he said with a slam
of the SUV's rear hatch door).
A flume of exhaust came when he started the American beast.
He had to make a special effort to maneuver to exit the
parking lot (there is never enough room for a huge SUV in
a compact parking spot).
Casey and the couple, both had the same amount of groceries.
The SUV was easy to get, had way too much room unused, and
was a pain to get its large body in and out of tight parking.
The Think City EV hard to get, held the same groceries with
still plenty of room for more, could seat both people, but
backed out and 'zipped' out of the lot.
An EV just makes too much sense.
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com
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Yes, we need to keep an eye on Li-Ion batteries.
Whether that is a fully integrated BMS, or a good old multimeter (not fully charging).
We can all talk about the benefits and problems of new technology until we are blue in
the face, extrapolating from completely unrelated situations to suit whichever
argument we are making, but it all means nothing until someone actually puts it in
their car and tries it out.
That's what we need to do. Try it out. Discover the real problems. Work out solutions.
The biggest problem with EVs is their range. New technology batteries improve that
situation. But unless people actually give it a go, there will be no other option than
lead acid.
Mark
b.t.w. failure rate for 30 x 5% is (1 - (0.95 ^ 30)) = 0.78536... = 79%, not %150.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, 14 February 2003 6:54 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Battery Management (was: Money talk.......)
If you are planning to use Li-Ion batteries, you absolutely need an
automatic battery management system (BMS) that works on a cell level. To
run these cells without a BMS in place is foolhardy.
Lead acid batteries, like the several sets of Optima batteries you have
gone through, are pretty robust and will withstand a substantial amount of
abuse before failing. This is not the case with Li-Ion batteries. Minor
mistreatment will cause damage. Mistreatment with any regularity will cause
complete and rapid failure.
Self-discharge is a function of temperature and is also is strongly
altered by minor manufacturing differences. Charge efficiency is also a
function of temperature and is also strongly altered by minor manufacturing
differences. These differences "stack up" in a high-voltage pack. A
high-voltage pack can get out of balance quite easily and relatively quickly.
The statistics eat you alive. With each cell you add, the frequency and
severity of the imbalance increases Even though you might be able to "get
away with" no BMS on a low-voltage pack of three or four cells, it doesn't
extrapolate to many cells in series
There are a few computer Li-Ion battery packs that have three carefully
matched cells that have no balancing electronics. The manufacturer knows
that, say, 5% of these packs will fail in warranty. They also know that the
warranty replacement of 5% of their products costs less than installing the
balancing electronics. No BMS works for them because the pack voltage is
low, the cells are carefully manufactured, and the temperature of the three
adjacent cells will be closely matched.
Now let's run the same scheme on a pack with 90 cells. We now have 30
times the cells. The failure rate is now 5% X 30 = 150%. Zero battery packs
will survive through warranty.
It's even worse than that. The cells you are talking about buying are NOT
carefully matched. In a large pack, the temperature will vary greatly The
end cells will run close to ambient temperature and the interior cells will
run much hotter. In winter, there will be a major temperature gradient on
the pack. (The cables that go from the pack to the controller act as large
"fins" that transfer heat very well to and from the end cells/batteries.)
It's even worse than THAT. In a three-cell pack, a low or high cell
voltage will significantly alter the overall pack voltage. Thus, the extent
of overcharge or over-discharge is likely to be quite small. The device
with shut off or the charger will top out before the voltage gets too wild
on any one cell. In a high-voltage pack, the voltage of a single cell is
buried in the noise. The severity of the overcharge or over-discharge of a
single out-of-balance cell is much greater and failure will thus occur much
sooner in a high-voltage pack.
In a nutshell, without a BMS, high-voltage Li-Ion pack failure is a certainty.
>>>>>>>> Electrical engineering versus Mechanical or Chemical Engineering
<<<<<
When an electrical engineer designs a typical circuit, selects components,
and then builds the circuit, most of the time the circuit works just as
planned (unless a design error was made.) This is because electronic
components typically follow the spec. sheet closely, and are well-behaved.
When a chemical or mechanical engineer designs something, they are well
aware that the materials, components, and processes selected are NOT well
behaved and will typically NOT follow the spec. sheet closely every time.
They make designs that are forgiving and will have a built-in margin for
less-than-ideal conditions.
Batteries are more chemical or mechanical components than they are
electrical components. They are complicated, variable, and often don't
behave exactly the way the spec. sheet says they will. A battery management
system is the "margin" that makes the battery system "forgiving" when there
are manufacturing variations or there are less-than-ideal conditions.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
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