EV Digest 2602
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: BMS in general and my plans.
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: EV1s waiting
by Gordon Niessen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) fun donor car in Pacific Northwest ebay#2160088074
by "Carl Clifford" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: EV1s waiting,rant, an\' stuff
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
6) Re: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) re: EV1 awaiting destruction
by William Brinsmead <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: LIN bus link
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Lithium Metal Polymer battery
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Field terminals for field weakening.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: RS232 compatible meter on sale at Radio Shack
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) BMS cost (was Re: LIN bus link)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
14) Re: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
15) Re: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) Re: EV1s waiting,rant, an\' stuff
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) Re: Civic Hybrid Upgrade
by Adam Kuehn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: LRR Revisited
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff
by "BORTEL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: BMS cost (was Re: LIN bus link)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: LRR Revisited
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff
by harsha godavari <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: US Electricar Prizm on Ebay
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Bryan Avery wrote:
>
> A module on each cell will compare it's voltage (10 bit A/D'ed) to
> the mathematical average voltage of a cell and either boost or drain
> it depending on the comparison. Average is delivered via VCO as a
> frequency, using IR link, so no buses or any signal carrying
> interconnects are needed just to do that.
>
> Victor,
> It sounds from what you describe, that you are designing this
> system intending that all the batteries will be in one location. Is
> this correct? If that is the case, I would suggest allowing for some
> optional way to connect remotely mounted batteries into the BMS system
> (fiber optic perhaps?). Very few EVs have all of the batteries mounted
> in one box. Although the smaller size of Li-Ion makes it much easier to
> locate all the batteries in one spot, it could still be desirable to
> split the pack for weight distribution or other reasons.
>
> Just my two cents...
>
> -Bryan
Overhead IR transmitters will be on top of all grouped together
batteries including a single ones if necessary. By overhead I mean
a cluster of IR LEDs facing upwards all directions and reflection
from aluminum lid covers all the areas in the box. It's not limited
to one cluster. This has ben proved to work and you c an easily
check it with remote for your TV: it controls with a beam bounced from
a metal surface practically just as good as directly.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If anyone finds out where they are being shipped to and location of crushing
I would be happy to play taps or give a 21 gun salute to these fine
vehicles. Lawrence Rhodes......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 8:56 AM
Subject: Re: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: fyrehawk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 11:19 AM
> Subject: Re: EV1s waiting
>
>
> > Those pictures brought sad tears to my eyes.
> >
> > What a waste. (How American can you get?)
> >
> > Patrick W.
> > Ashamed to be an American
> >
> Ho Patrick, an' All;
>
> Yes! Tears! LOOK at ALL of them! Red Silver and other nice shiny
colors,
> like new! Condemmed to death, for working too well. Too American as you
say!
> To trash them because they work. You bet they could all be found loving
> homes.
>
> Would General Murders EVer change it's mind? Is the tooling and dye
> stuff trashed, too. Could they EVer resume production? If we had another
> controlled gas shortage, anyhow, SOME way to demand re-production.I still
> find this whole production EV thing unbelievable, with the US poised for
> war, and the OPEC people, I'm sure., poised at the taps to shut the USA
> down. There should, if I were Prez,Don't worry I'm NOT running, can't
afford
> it, a crash program to cut oil consumption 50 percent, I 'st year, and 10
> percent for the next two. Yes! Tall order, like putting guyz on the Moon
in
> the Kennedy years. But doable, with the Yankee inginuety that had carried
> USA along in the Last Major War. I mean liberating Europe from Heil
Hitler!
> It was touch an" go then, for awile. Had lotsa inlaws that served, and
folks
> that just remember the dark, early war years.Yeah! That dates me a bit, I
> guess,Wild and wooly stories from the source.
>
> Fasst forwarding to today. The old Can Do spirit is getting overlooked,
> 'cept to build bigger and better weapons. Major selling point in movies
> seems to be destroying things, bigger and louder special effects that are
> shockingly realistic.Some of this inginuity were applied to EV technology,
> as well as energy saving stuff too. So we wouldn't need so much oil. Just
> the talent on this List, ganged up anf funded, could get EV's out there in
> big no.s
>
> Sorry, end of OT Rant, but hadta say something! Back to Li on
batteries
> and perfectly balanced batteries. Off in my EV to run errands!
>
> Seeya
>
> Bob
>
> PS Didya see the sharp EV car in movie " Minority Report" best part
of
> the whole silly movie!
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would love to bid on the salvage rights to those.
At 10:19 AM 2/20/2003, you wrote:
Those pictures brought sad tears to my eyes.
What a waste. (How American can you get?)
Patrick W.
Ashamed to be an American
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2160088074&category=418
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Count me in. :) I have a little funding available to me, but nothing near 15 million.
I'd love to do this, buit lack some time (being a student), and the experience
(although interested and semi-competant). I wish this stuff was a little cheaper,
then I'd be all over it.
-Sam
> Bob Rice wrote:
>
> > Some of this inginuity were applied to EV
> > technology, as well as energy saving stuff too. So we
> > wouldn't need so much oil. Just the talent on this List,
> > ganged up anf funded, could get EV's out there in big no.s
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> I couldn't agree more. All the talent we need is right here on this
> list right now. Unfortunately, we all need our day jobs to support us.
>
> Is there anyone on the list who knows someone with more net worth than
> they will ever need, and a big heart? It's a serious question. Twenty
> to thirty employees, 15000 to 20000 sq. ft., maybe fifteen million
> dollars (a big chunk of that for marketing). Shoot for 200 vehicles the
> first year, ramping up to 1000/year in five years. DO NOT TRY TO BE THE
> NEXT GM OR FORD. Start small. Get a fully-functional EV available to
> the public. Market it like the new thing it truly is. They will buy.
> Then you grow.
>
> I have zero doubt that a company made from the talent of this list could
> open the eyes of the public to a whole new way to drive. The only
> unknown in my mind is the certification process. How long, how much?
> For that matter, the quickest way to put production EVs on the road is
> simply to fund the certification and production tooling of Rick
> Woodbury's Tango. Rick could probably have cars on the market within
> months of certification.
>
> This may read like the hopeful musings of an enviro-socio-idealist. Not
> true. This is from an engineering manager with a pretty firm grasp of
> what can and cannot be done. We are so near to making this happen, yet
> so far. We could literally change the face of personal transportation.
> How do we get there?
>
> Chris
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Better make sure to have a camcorder with you - this may never repeat.
You will have the evidence if GM ever will dare to deny this action.
Who knows, may be having such documents (tapes) will help some day
to put pressure on auto makers, help CARB cases or whatever.
Better have it and not need it than regret the the opposite.
my 2 mm.
Victor
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>
> If anyone finds out where they are being shipped to and location of crushing
> I would be happy to play taps or give a 21 gun salute to these fine
> vehicles. Lawrence Rhodes......
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 8:56 AM
> Subject: Re: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: fyrehawk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 11:19 AM
> > Subject: Re: EV1s waiting
> >
> >
> > > Those pictures brought sad tears to my eyes.
> > >
> > > What a waste. (How American can you get?)
> > >
> > > Patrick W.
> > > Ashamed to be an American
> > >
> > Ho Patrick, an' All;
> >
> > Yes! Tears! LOOK at ALL of them! Red Silver and other nice shiny
> colors,
> > like new! Condemmed to death, for working too well. Too American as you
> say!
> > To trash them because they work. You bet they could all be found loving
> > homes.
> >
> > Would General Murders EVer change it's mind? Is the tooling and dye
> > stuff trashed, too. Could they EVer resume production? If we had another
> > controlled gas shortage, anyhow, SOME way to demand re-production.I still
> > find this whole production EV thing unbelievable, with the US poised for
> > war, and the OPEC people, I'm sure., poised at the taps to shut the USA
> > down. There should, if I were Prez,Don't worry I'm NOT running, can't
> afford
> > it, a crash program to cut oil consumption 50 percent, I 'st year, and 10
> > percent for the next two. Yes! Tall order, like putting guyz on the Moon
> in
> > the Kennedy years. But doable, with the Yankee inginuety that had carried
> > USA along in the Last Major War. I mean liberating Europe from Heil
> Hitler!
> > It was touch an" go then, for awile. Had lotsa inlaws that served, and
> folks
> > that just remember the dark, early war years.Yeah! That dates me a bit, I
> > guess,Wild and wooly stories from the source.
> >
> > Fasst forwarding to today. The old Can Do spirit is getting overlooked,
> > 'cept to build bigger and better weapons. Major selling point in movies
> > seems to be destroying things, bigger and louder special effects that are
> > shockingly realistic.Some of this inginuity were applied to EV technology,
> > as well as energy saving stuff too. So we wouldn't need so much oil. Just
> > the talent on this List, ganged up anf funded, could get EV's out there in
> > big no.s
> >
> > Sorry, end of OT Rant, but hadta say something! Back to Li on
> batteries
> > and perfectly balanced batteries. Off in my EV to run errands!
> >
> > Seeya
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > PS Didya see the sharp EV car in movie " Minority Report" best part
> of
> > the whole silly movie!
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey guys, If GM is really foolish enough to "crush" all the EV1s there
are still great opportunities to be had, as they will likely contract
for "assured destruction" (a farce) with some nearby scrap yards, the
cars won't be crushed per say but disassembled and the metal and plastic
parts re-cycled for scrap value. Although getting an intact vehicle may
be difficult but not impossible, the parts are a different story. I have
been getting equipment for the University here for 20 years and have
*never* encountered a scrap facility that I was unable to with a bit of
effort to purchase materials from, ether by promising not to tell the
origin of the items, serial number removal, or tracking and buying from
the places the scrap yards sell to. Unfortunately for me they won't be
recycled near Nevada.
The use of a little "social" engineering with friendly yard owners,
employees, truck drivers etc.whom probably also have a dim view of GM
and big corporations in general has been very productive.
Such "sanitized" parts could then be discreetly traded about and used
to further the EV cause in general ....Just imagine if GM smugly says
the EV1s were destroyed because (insert your GM corporate lie here) then
to find out that dozens maybe even hundreds of EV1 drivetrains,
inverters, chargers, NiMH batteries, etc. live on! Enjoy, Bill
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Brune wrote:
> I have been casually looking at the LIN bus for a BMS for the last
> couple of weeks...
> A drawback is that the bus really only wants to have 16 devices on
> it. But I don't see why one couldn't build a gateway(s) to expand
> the network up to the maximum number of nodes (which I believe is 60).
> The 16 node limit is a hardware limit, not a protocol limit.
To me, its seems that the LIN bus isn't really designed for this
application (no isolation, not enough nodes, no enough noise immunity).
So you have to change it. Once you've changed it, there is little point
in worrying about compatibility.
It's a little like saying you need a screw, but have this nice box of
nails. So let's machine the nails into screws. It's a false economy --
just get what you really need to do the job right.
> I think optical isolation would be fairly easy.
It's not. Speed, and power consumption become a problem. If you're not
careful, your network's power consumption will run the batteries down.
> The 8 pin MC68HC908QT4 has a 4ch 8 bit ADC. Probably could have
> battery monitoring slaves for a cost of $5-10.
I don't think you are being realistic about costs. It appears that you
are picking a few chips, using their high-volume prices, and then
assuming zero cost for everything else; all the rest of the parts, PC
board (layout and tooling), software, packaging, and testing.
I've struggled through this on a number of design. Here's something that
works fairly well as a rule of thumb. I've heard it called the 1-3-9
rule: List the obvious parts and their cost. Multiply by 3 to get the
real parts cost, after you've included all the parts, shipping to get
them, etc.
Then multiply by 3 again to get the final cost you would have to charge
someone just to break even (no profit). This includes the cost of your
purchased software (like a C compiler), software development system and
ICE, PC board layout and tooling, PC board assembly, testing, and
packaging.
For example, if your "obvious" parts cost $5 (a micro, a network chip,
two optos, etc.), then expect your final BOM to be $15, and the finished
module to be around $45. That's a lot of money per battery!
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
BORTEL wrote:
> How about using multiple parallel strings with separate small
> controllers on each string?
For drag racing, you want to extract as much power as you can for only
10-20 seconds. These lithium batteries are not suited for this. To get
enough peak current, you'd have to use so many of them that the vehicle
would have been lighter with some other battery type.
Now, if you were building an EV for maximum *range", then they could be
just the thing!
BTW, the Hydro Quebec lithiums I've seen before were quite complex; not
just simple cells like most others. They had electrolyte recirculation
pumps, filters, hoses, and valves all over the place, and several
sensors per cell to keep track of what it is doing. It didn't look like
something you'd even want to use in a moving vehicle.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> I must show my ignorance as to where the field terminals are on ADC
> and GE motors.
The field terminals are marked S1 and S2, and located along the side of
the motor. The armature terminals are marked A1 and A2, and both located
at the end with the brushes.
> If I do this trick with a 12 gauge wire could I use a golfcart
> contactor like the one I am using now?
First, don't try this with a PWM controller! The voltage across the
field is not DC; it also has a peak-peak AC voltage nearly full pack
voltage! Since there is negligible inductance in that piece of 12-gauge
wire, the peak currents in it would be tremendous!
So, the only way you can use field weakening with a PWM controller is if
you only allow the weakening resistor to be switched in when the
controller is FULL ON.
But, you are right that a lower voltage contactor can be used to switch
the field weakening resistor in/out. As long as the controller isn't
switching, there is very little voltage across the field.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I did not know if you saw the Radio Shack model 22-812 DMM is on
> sale for $59.99.
Radio Shack meters are often relabelled versions of Metex meters. I
bought a Metex ME-21 a year ago. It looks like the same meter. I found
it worked fine at room temperature, but they apparently used a cheap
voltage reference, so its readings drift a lot with temperature.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>
> For example, if your "obvious" parts cost $5 (a micro, a network chip,
> two optos, etc.), then expect your final BOM to be $15, and the finished
> module to be around $45. That's a lot of money per battery!
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
Unspoken consensus is that about 15% of the battery pack is
in the BMS is acceptable. Make it 20% for good BMS.
For $150 LiIon cell (in quantity) this means the module
must be $30 or less. Tough, but doable. 15% would be $22.5
I don't believe one can even break even, the parts alone will cost
$15...$20. Doing it as a hobby spending money as for everything else
is OK, but selling such thing at some profit will be very difficult
task, unless mass produced and committed customer(s) exist.
I've gone through this analysis. I see at least 5 different
listers work on their own BMS implementation. Best luck guys,
just have realistic expectations. Unless a customer is ready
to pay 1/3 to 1/2 of the pack cost for the BMS, you may find
yourself in a wrong business.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Tropica needs a hardtop.
On Thu, 20 Feb 2003 13:54:57 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> I was wondering about something like this last week when I finished
> reading The Lost Cord. Who owns the rights to the Tropica design? I
> know where most (all?) of the drawings are but I don't know about
> the rights. Sadly, the molds are gone.
> Nobody wanted to store them.
>
> Steve
>
>
>
> In a message dated 2/20/2003 1:11:48 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> >Bob Rice wrote:
> >
> >> Some of this inginuity were applied to EV
> >> technology, as well as energy saving stuff too. So we
> >> wouldn't need so much oil. Just the talent on this List,
> >> ganged up anf funded, could get EV's out there in big no.s
> >
> >Hi Bob,
> >
> >I couldn't agree more. �All the talent we need is right here on this
> >list right now. �Unfortunately, we all need our day jobs to support
> us.
> >
> >Is there anyone on the list who knows someone with more net worth
> than
> >they will ever need, and a big heart? �It's a serious question.
> �Twenty
> >to thirty employees, 15000 to 20000 sq. ft., maybe fifteen million
> >dollars (a big chunk of that for marketing). �Shoot for 200
> vehicles the
> >first year, ramping up to 1000/year in five years. �DO NOT TRY TO
> BE THE
> >NEXT GM OR FORD. �Start small. �Get a fully-functional EV available
> to
> >the public. �Market it like the new thing it truly is. �They will
> buy.
> >Then you grow.
> >
> >I have zero doubt that a company made from the talent of this list
> could
> >open the eyes of the public to a whole new way to drive. �The only
> >unknown in my mind is the certification process. �How long, how
> much?
> >For that matter, the quickest way to put production EVs on the road
> is
> >simply to fund the certification and production tooling of Rick
> >Woodbury's Tango. �Rick could probably have cars on the market
> within
> >months of certification.
> >
> >This may read like the hopeful musings of an enviro-socio-idealist.
> �Not
> >true. �This is from an engineering manager with a pretty firm grasp
> of
> >what can and cannot be done. �We are so near to making this happen,
> yet
> >so far. �We could literally change the face of personal
> transportation.
> >How do we get there?
> >
> >Chris
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________
Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
Only $9.95 per month!
Visit www.juno.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Only problem with the $ 25000 to $ 35000 Tango is that it can not compete
economically with a $ 10000 Echo that gets 35 miles per gallon.
Gasoline will need to atleast triple in price before the average person
could financially justify a Tango or any other EV or Hybrid of similar
high cost.
Menlo Park III,
Bill
On Thu, 20 Feb 2003 13:11:48 -0500 "Chris Tromley"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Bob Rice wrote:
>
> > Some of this inginuity were applied to EV
> > technology, as well as energy saving stuff too. So we
> > wouldn't need so much oil. Just the talent on this List,
> > ganged up anf funded, could get EV's out there in big no.s
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> I couldn't agree more. All the talent we need is right here on this
> list right now. Unfortunately, we all need our day jobs to support
> us.
>
> Is there anyone on the list who knows someone with more net worth
> than
> they will ever need, and a big heart? It's a serious question.
> Twenty
> to thirty employees, 15000 to 20000 sq. ft., maybe fifteen million
> dollars (a big chunk of that for marketing). Shoot for 200 vehicles
> the
> first year, ramping up to 1000/year in five years. DO NOT TRY TO BE
> THE
> NEXT GM OR FORD. Start small. Get a fully-functional EV available
> to
> the public. Market it like the new thing it truly is. They will
> buy.
> Then you grow.
>
> I have zero doubt that a company made from the talent of this list
> could
> open the eyes of the public to a whole new way to drive. The only
> unknown in my mind is the certification process. How long, how
> much?
> For that matter, the quickest way to put production EVs on the road
> is
> simply to fund the certification and production tooling of Rick
> Woodbury's Tango. Rick could probably have cars on the market
> within
> months of certification.
>
> This may read like the hopeful musings of an enviro-socio-idealist.
> Not
> true. This is from an engineering manager with a pretty firm grasp
> of
> what can and cannot be done. We are so near to making this happen,
> yet
> so far. We could literally change the face of personal
> transportation.
> How do we get there?
>
> Chris
>
>
________________________________________________________________
Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
Only $9.95 per month!
Visit www.juno.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Model Z Roadster, "Catlin's car" had a hard top. When the assets of Xebra were
sold at auction, this car was missing although it's hard top was there. The top was
sent to the garbage as it didn't fit on a Tropica and the only car that it did fit on
was "hiding".
Steve
In a message dated 2/20/2003 6:25:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
>The Tropica needs a hardtop.
>
>On Thu, 20 Feb 2003 13:54:57 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>> I was wondering about something like this last week when I finished
>> reading The Lost Cord. Who owns the rights to the Tropica design? I
>> know where most (all?) of the drawings are but I don't know about
>> the rights. �Sadly, the molds are gone.
>> Nobody wanted to store them.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 2/20/2003 1:11:48 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>> "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>>
>> >Bob Rice wrote:
>> >
>> >> Some of this inginuity were applied to EV
>> >> technology, as well as energy saving stuff too. So we
>> >> wouldn't need so much oil. Just the talent on this List,
>> >> ganged up anf funded, could get EV's out there in big no.s
>> >
>> >Hi Bob,
>> >
>> >I couldn't agree more. �All the talent we need is right here on this
>> >list right now. �Unfortunately, we all need our day jobs to support
>> us.
>> >
>> >Is there anyone on the list who knows someone with more net worth
>> than
>> >they will ever need, and a big heart? �It's a serious question.
>> �Twenty
>> >to thirty employees, 15000 to 20000 sq. ft., maybe fifteen million
>> >dollars (a big chunk of that for marketing). �Shoot for 200
>> vehicles the
>> >first year, ramping up to 1000/year in five years. �DO NOT TRY TO
>> BE THE
>> >NEXT GM OR FORD. �Start small. �Get a fully-functional EV available
>> to
>> >the public. �Market it like the new thing it truly is. �They will
>> buy.
>> >Then you grow.
>> >
>> >I have zero doubt that a company made from the talent of this list
>> could
>> >open the eyes of the public to a whole new way to drive. �The only
>> >unknown in my mind is the certification process. �How long, how
>> much?
>> >For that matter, the quickest way to put production EVs on the road
>> is
>> >simply to fund the certification and production tooling of Rick
>> >Woodbury's Tango. �Rick could probably have cars on the market
>> within
>> >months of certification.
>> >
>> >This may read like the hopeful musings of an enviro-socio-idealist.
>> �Not
>> >true. �This is from an engineering manager with a pretty firm grasp
>> of
>> >what can and cannot be done. �We are so near to making this happen,
>> yet
>> >so far. �We could literally change the face of personal
>> transportation.
>> >How do we get there?
>> >
>> >Chris
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________
>Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
>Only $9.95 per month!
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok, so lets get together and write a business plan to get funding and
start this dream now.
On Thu, 20 Feb 2003 16:29:48 -500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> Count me in. :) I have a little funding available to me, but nothing
> near 15 million. I'd love to do this, buit lack some time (being a
> student), and the experience (although interested and
> semi-competant). I wish this stuff was a little cheaper, then I'd
> be all over it.
>
> -Sam
> > Bob Rice wrote:
> >
> > > Some of this inginuity were applied to EV
> > > technology, as well as energy saving stuff too. So we
> > > wouldn't need so much oil. Just the talent on this List,
> > > ganged up anf funded, could get EV's out there in big no.s
> >
> > Hi Bob,
> >
> > I couldn't agree more. All the talent we need is right here on
> this
> > list right now. Unfortunately, we all need our day jobs to
> support us.
> >
> > Is there anyone on the list who knows someone with more net worth
> than
> > they will ever need, and a big heart? It's a serious question.
> Twenty
> > to thirty employees, 15000 to 20000 sq. ft., maybe fifteen million
> > dollars (a big chunk of that for marketing). Shoot for 200
> vehicles the
> > first year, ramping up to 1000/year in five years. DO NOT TRY TO
> BE THE
> > NEXT GM OR FORD. Start small. Get a fully-functional EV
> available to
> > the public. Market it like the new thing it truly is. They will
> buy.
> > Then you grow.
> >
> > I have zero doubt that a company made from the talent of this list
> could
> > open the eyes of the public to a whole new way to drive. The only
> > unknown in my mind is the certification process. How long, how
> much?
> > For that matter, the quickest way to put production EVs on the
> road is
> > simply to fund the certification and production tooling of Rick
> > Woodbury's Tango. Rick could probably have cars on the market
> within
> > months of certification.
> >
> > This may read like the hopeful musings of an
> enviro-socio-idealist. Not
> > true. This is from an engineering manager with a pretty firm
> grasp of
> > what can and cannot be done. We are so near to making this
> happen, yet
> > so far. We could literally change the face of personal
> transportation.
> > How do we get there?
> >
> > Chris
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________
Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
Only $9.95 per month!
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote (in response to me):
> I have trouble envisioning a plug-in hybrid that would be
> sufficiently bullet-proof for Joe Average...
The car can start the gasoline engine when needed to prevent serious
battery discharge. It can also keep driving on electric when "nearly"
out of gas (or oil or coolant) to prevent damage to the engine or its
fuel system. These are both *improvements* over standard cars, and makes
them *more* bullet-proof.
But if it does all that, is there no performance penalty? Remember,
we are starting with the assumption that this is supposed to be an
"unlimited" range vehicle. But how do you effectively couple that
with a need for plugging in at your destination? I don't see an easy
answer to that, and as far as I can tell, you aren't providing one
here. Either you make it bullet-proof so that there is no risk to
the batteries, but take a severe performance hit when you reach
maximum safe discharge; or you accept battery damage risk to improve
system performance. I still can't see a reasonable way to meet in
the middle.
> It seems to me that it would be a pretty tricky engineering problem
to get the performance that would sell and still have a car that
could reliably handle extended trips while it is expecting to be
recharged at some indefinable moment in the future.
If the engineers assume customers are idiots, and try to do all the
thinking for them (when to use gasoline or electric, when to switch
between them etc.) then I think they will fail. They will fall far short
of the full capabilities of the system. The automated system will make
lots of bad choices.
Two points: First, it is a mistake to assume that a bullet-proof
design is assuming that people are idiots. One is actually just
assuming that people are people. Even the smartest folks sometimes
push on the door clearly marked "Pull to Open" (as Gary Larson so
eloquently pointed out in "The Farside"), and even the most anal will
occasionally forget to look at the battery gauge and plug in when
they should. But more importantly, not everyone who purchases such a
car is going to be interested in the car as an elegant battery
management system. Most of them will want cheap, reliable,
eco-friendly transportation. Those people - the majority of the
target audience - are almost certainly not going to be thinking much
about the car itself, and going to forget to plug in from time to
time. This will risk the life of the battery pack, which also
happens to be the most expensive component in the vehicle.
I think this is a lot like good software design: Most users don't
care what's "under the hood" of their computer. They wouldn't even
think of changing a preference setting, much less doing something
really complicated. They just want to be able to jump in and write
documents, look at price lists, whip up a slide show for the next
presentation, or whatever. They aren't interested in the computer
*as a computer* in the slightest. Accordingly, good software isn't
focused on that, either, but is just easy to use without any need to
read an instruction book. The same should be true of a salable
automobile: it should just be a good car, not a good hobby.
Second, your comment doesn't at all address the underlying concern -
how do you combine good vehicle performance and sufficient reliance
on the battery system to require a plug-in at the destination? Heck,
*I* don't always know how far I'll be travelling on a given trip.
How is the car supposed to know and adjust to a variable length trip
while still giving decent performance?
Ed Thorpe's response was better, but didn't explicitly address the
performance question. How does the FutureCar perform once the
battery is depleted, Ed? Regardless of performance, does it
effectively ensure that the batteries remain undamaged if discharged
to the maximum allowed by your hybrid settings? Your 1999 technical
sheet (the most recent one, and so I assumed the most comprehensive)
did not explicitly address this question. What sort of endurance
testing has the vehicle been put through? Do you have enough data to
give a good estimate of real battery life expectations?
Just as people can be trusted to have manual transmissions, they can be
trusted to decide when to use gasoline or electric. Sure, not all
people; but give them the choice!
This, I agree with. The default should be automatic, but I wouldn't
mind having a switch that allowed the driver the freedom to choose.
Choosing manual mode would almost necessarily have to void any
battery warranty, though.
-Adam Kuehn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> The Nokian rep says the
> Hekkapeliita Q is their lowest LRR tire they make but their
> website seems to
> point to the NRT2 as being "fuel efficient."
The Hekkapeliita Q is a winter tire. I wouldn't expect it to be LRR, but I
suppose it's possible. The NRT2 is an all-season tire and is billed as "low
rolling resistance for fuel efficiency."
David Roden
Akron OH USA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve,
Doesn't Kirk Hoeffler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> still have the Tropica
molds? I think he still has a lot of the other parts
http://www.goldcoastinteriors.com/CarParts .
Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 10:54 AM
Subject: RE: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff
I was wondering about something like this last week when I finished reading
The Lost Cord. Who owns the rights to the Tropica design? I know where most
(all?) of the drawings are but I don't know about the rights. Sadly, the
molds are gone.
Nobody wanted to store them.
Steve
In a message dated 2/20/2003 1:11:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Chris
Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>Bob Rice wrote:
>
>> Some of this inginuity were applied to EV
>> technology, as well as energy saving stuff too. So we
>> wouldn't need so much oil. Just the talent on this List,
>> ganged up anf funded, could get EV's out there in big no.s
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>I couldn't agree more. All the talent we need is right here on this
>list right now. Unfortunately, we all need our day jobs to support us.
>
>Is there anyone on the list who knows someone with more net worth than
>they will ever need, and a big heart? It's a serious question. Twenty
>to thirty employees, 15000 to 20000 sq. ft., maybe fifteen million
>dollars (a big chunk of that for marketing). Shoot for 200 vehicles the
>first year, ramping up to 1000/year in five years. DO NOT TRY TO BE THE
>NEXT GM OR FORD. Start small. Get a fully-functional EV available to
>the public. Market it like the new thing it truly is. They will buy.
>Then you grow.
>
>I have zero doubt that a company made from the talent of this list could
>open the eyes of the public to a whole new way to drive. The only
>unknown in my mind is the certification process. How long, how much?
>For that matter, the quickest way to put production EVs on the road is
>simply to fund the certification and production tooling of Rick
>Woodbury's Tango. Rick could probably have cars on the market within
>months of certification.
>
>This may read like the hopeful musings of an enviro-socio-idealist. Not
>true. This is from an engineering manager with a pretty firm grasp of
>what can and cannot be done. We are so near to making this happen, yet
>so far. We could literally change the face of personal transportation.
>How do we get there?
>
>Chris
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Unspoken consensus is that about 15% of the battery pack is
> in the BMS is acceptable. Make it 20% for good BMS.
> For $150 LiIon cell (in quantity) this means the module
> must be $30 or less. Tough, but doable. 15% would be $22.5
>
> I don't believe one can even break even, the parts alone will cost
> $15...$20. Doing it as a hobby spending money as for everything else
> is OK, but selling such thing at some profit will be very difficult
> task, unless mass produced and committed customer(s) exist.
This is why I think the only practical option is to have one DPST relay
and fuse per battery. It's not hard to put a relay in an environmentally
sealed package, and make it work despite stupendous noise levels.
Depending on how much current you want to allow (charge, discharge, or
just measurement), it then becomes fairly easy to get under $10 per
module finished cost.
Then you only have one expensive central controller. It needs enough
outputs to select any one of the relays, and then then does all its
voltage measurements (and charge or discharge currents) thru the single
pair of high-current wires.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Based entirely on the mileage I lost when I changed to a different tire,
I would say Michelin Energy (green MXV?) is a LRR tire. But it is a
passenger car tire, not light truck, if that matters. It also had modest
adhesion. It was also very quiet and balanced well.
That is a non scientific data point.
A note is that for medium duty trucks with wheels down to ~16.5", you
can get LRR tires. Check out www.michelintruck.com. Many are for 19.5"
and larger wheels, but some are pickup sized. So it appears that they
have an interest in LRR tires. THe X One series are a novel approach,
irrelevant as they may be to a pickup truck. They were quoting as much
as a 30% reduction in rolling resistance for some tires, reulting in 10%
better fuel consumption, at the last SAE Truck and Bus show.
Seth
Wilmer Hechanova wrote:
>
> Part 1.1Type: Plain Text (text/plain)
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Chris:
What I would like to see from the talent on the list is to
design a universal model (for a 4door sedan small to medium size)with
off the shelf parts taht any bozo (such as I)can slap together. One
motor,one controller one charger and a standard set of batteries. The
car should be drivable for x number of miles on any terrain /weather on
this continent.
We may not find somone willing to put up even 1 million let alone 15 for
a factory. The design can be based on either a popular kit or a popular
ICE. If the sturday afternoon mechanics can put it together, you have a
winner.
Its doable if the knowledgeable folks decide on it. You recall IBM
publishing the specs for the PC and unintetionally caused a revolution.
or look at Linux or FreeBSD. We can do the same. What do you think ?
Regards
Harsha Godavari
Chris Tromley wrote:
>
> Bob Rice wrote:
>
> > Some of this inginuity were applied to EV
> > technology, as well as energy saving stuff too. So we
> > wouldn't need so much oil. Just the talent on this List,
> > ganged up anf funded, could get EV's out there in big no.s
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> I couldn't agree more. All the talent we need is right here on this
> list right now. Unfortunately, we all need our day jobs to support us.
>
> Is there anyone on the list who knows someone with more net worth than
> they will ever need, and a big heart? It's a serious question. Twenty
> to thirty employees, 15000 to 20000 sq. ft., maybe fifteen million
> dollars (a big chunk of that for marketing). Shoot for 200 vehicles the
> first year, ramping up to 1000/year in five years. DO NOT TRY TO BE THE
> NEXT GM OR FORD. Start small. Get a fully-functional EV available to
> the public. Market it like the new thing it truly is. They will buy.
> Then you grow.
>
> I have zero doubt that a company made from the talent of this list could
> open the eyes of the public to a whole new way to drive. The only
> unknown in my mind is the certification process. How long, how much?
> For that matter, the quickest way to put production EVs on the road is
> simply to fund the certification and production tooling of Rick
> Woodbury's Tango. Rick could probably have cars on the market within
> months of certification.
>
> This may read like the hopeful musings of an enviro-socio-idealist. Not
> true. This is from an engineering manager with a pretty firm grasp of
> what can and cannot be done. We are so near to making this happen, yet
> so far. We could literally change the face of personal transportation.
> How do we get there?
>
> Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You were probably "sniped" - some folks use sniping software or servers
to place carefully time last second bids. For future reference, keep in
mind that eBay has you enter your *maximum* bid. So if you enter $5000
as a bid, it would show up as $3200 to make you the winning bidder at
that moment and if someone later bid $4000 you'd still be winning at
$4100. Of course if someone else then ups it to $5100 at the last second
you have no comeback, but... it helps you stick to your budget and not
get caught up in a bidding war you can't afford.
But slightly more on-topic... it is kinda a compliment to EVs that
someone is interested enough to go to this effort that is more commonly
used for "collectibles".
We know you want something with a back seat (so no pickup trucks), but
what type of range and performance are you looking for? Maybe there is
something else out there that would be good for you.
Trotman Simpson wrote:
> Well , I lost the bid on the car , it went for $3,300 but I could'nt click
> fast enough.
> I had it at $3,200 but was out bid in the last 20 sec.
> I will keep looking.
> Not many 5 passenger EV's out there.
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S-10
1970s Elec-Trak E20
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
