EV Digest 2601
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: BMS in general and my plans.
by "Bryan Avery" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Heaters
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Battery Storage Areas
by "Michael Lassiter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: LIN bus link
by "Chris Brune" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) OT: What's an SUV?
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RS232 compatible meter on sale at Radio Shack
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Li-Ion BMS
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: EV1s waiting
by "Alan Shedd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) EVLN(Wheels to Reels, ?Santa Rosa EV drivers get a movie pass?)
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: pick-up truck dimensions?
by "Alan Shedd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: LRR Revisited
by Wilmer Hechanova <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: EV1s waiting
by "fyrehawk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Field terminals for field weakening.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: RS232 compatible meter on sale at Radio Shack
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
18) Re: Conspiracy theorist rant (was: RE: Civic Hybrid Upgrade)
by Joseph Vaughn-Perling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Battery issue - [Fwd: 1996 NiMH Solectria Force for sale?]
by Don Buckshot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: EV1s waiting
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Lithium Metal Polymer battery - Cant Buy It
by Gordon Niessen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: US Electricar Prizm on Ebay
by "Trotman Simpson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff; more!
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
A module on each cell will compare it's voltage (10 bit A/D'ed) to
the mathematical average voltage of a cell and either boost or drain
it depending on the comparison. Average is delivered via VCO as a
frequency, using IR link, so no buses or any signal carrying
interconnects are needed just to do that.
Victor,
It sounds from what you describe, that you are designing this
system intending that all the batteries will be in one location. Is
this correct? If that is the case, I would suggest allowing for some
optional way to connect remotely mounted batteries into the BMS system
(fiber optic perhaps?). Very few EVs have all of the batteries mounted
in one box. Although the smaller size of Li-Ion makes it much easier to
locate all the batteries in one spot, it could still be desirable to
split the pack for weight distribution or other reasons.
Just my two cents...
-Bryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Many have said similar good things about Randy's heater cores. Or...
depending on how hard it is to get inside you dash, might consider the
fluid heaters that Victor has that let you leave the stock heater core
in place.
michael bearden wrote:
> Which heater core are you talking about? The ceramic element that I got
> for WATTABMR from Randy at Canadian Electric Vehicles has had no problems,
> and I my pack is always well above 192volts. It really warms the space,
> too!
> Michael B.
>
> George Tylinski wrote:
>
> > Maybe a hair dryer or space heater element designed to work in Europe.
> >
> > - GT
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Seth Murray [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 7:25 PM
> > > To: EV List
> > > Subject: Heaters
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi All -
> > >
> > > It seems that the standard electric heater core that everyone uses is
> > > only rated up to 120 volts, and I want heat at 192 volts. Is
> > > there any
> > > way I can rewire it for a higher voltage operation (it has a lot of
> > > connections...) or do I need to consider putting two in series or
> > > possibly another heater element? thanks
> > >
> > > Seth
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION
> > >
> > http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/ http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/387.html
--
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S-10
1970s Elec-Trak E20
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim Coate,I am responding to your request on the measurements for the
trucks.I do not have the actual measurements,but I can give you my two cents
on the lengths of full size pickups.I have been told that the extended cab
Chevy is on the same chassis that a suburban is made on and the shortbed is
on a Tahoe chassis.I don't think that the space behind the back wheel's are
different,so the difference comes between the wheel base.I don't know if you
are looking for a full size truck measurement,but I hope this will help.I
have never built nor driven an electric vehicle,but I am interested in
finding out something about them.Can you or someone out there give me a
quick run down on the size vehicle's that you normally use and what type of
power they produce,plus battery capacity? Thanks for your help, Mike
Lassiter
_________________________________________________________________
Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have been casually looking at the LIN bus for a BMS for the last couple of
weeks. One of the reasons that I found it attractive is that it is heavily
supported by Motorola. I do a fair amount of work with Motorola
microcontrollers so I have some of the tools available to me. Another
interesting feature of LIN is that Motorola can provide the network software
already complete. They also have software for low cost microcontrollers
that bit bang the communications. So no need for a SCI or CAN interface.
These micros can get down close to $1.
A drawback is that the bus really only wants to have 16 devices on it. But
I don't see why one couldn't build a gateway(s) to expand the network upto
the maximum number of nodes (which I believe is 60). The 16 node limit is a
hardware limit, not a protocol limit.
Motorola sells a physical interface chip (MC33399) for LIN. Supposedly in
the $0.50 (US) range. I think optical isolation would be fairly easy. Use
two low-speed optos, probably about 0.30 or so each. One opto for RX, one
for TX. My info from Motorola says they can run 9600 baud with the micros
that have internal RC oscillator. The 8 pin MC68HC908QT4 has a 4ch 8 bit
ADC. Probably could have battery monitoring slaves for a cost of $5-10.
Chris Brune
----- Original Message -----
From: "Otmar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 7:05 PM
Subject: Re: LIN bus link
> >Victor wrote:
> >
> > > Otmar wrote:
> > > ...
> > > > I'm curious about the LIN protocol, can you describe it?
> > > >
> > > > -Otmar-
> > > > http://www.CafeElectric.com
> > > > Mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
> > > http://www.lin-subbus.de/
> > >
> > > Victor
> >
> >The LIN bus was developed for very simple control jobs like window
switches
> >and other simple control application in an auto. Obviously the overhead
for
> >CAN made it economically not feasible for inexpensive non-critical
> >applications so they developed another standard! The only problem with
> >using it for battery management is it is only designed to address 32
nodes
> >as I recall. You could work around this by fudging the standard but
there
> >you are again not using a standard. The physical portion of the standard
is
> >clever because all of the slaves don't have to have an accurate timebase
> >because they can calculate the communication timing from the null bits at
> >the beginning of master transmissions.
> >This is designed to be very cheap to implement. You can get a pretty
good
> >idea of how it works by looking at app. notes from Microchip and others
that
> >are now supporting it.
> >
> >Mike Pengelly
>
> Thanks Mike and Victor,
>
> I've just had a look at the specification. It specifies a ISO 9141
> style hardware interface (modified for EMI) and also that no more
> that 16 nodes should be used.
>
> It does a lot of things that I had planned, such as slave
> synchronization to keep the slaves low cost, Unfortunately it runs up
> against the same problem of all the other multidrop wire busses,
> there is no easy way to run them on cheap slow low power fiber. I
> will be looking at it in more detail to see if it addresses issues I
> may have missed.
>
> -Otmar-
>
> http://www.CafeElectric.com/ New Zilla controllers, now available.
> http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Tom,
I think the SUV you might have seen is a "Crossover" vehicle. These are a
cross between an SUV and features you would find in a minivan or station
wagon.
Crossovers are the next biggest thing to hit the streets from the
automakers. The best example is the new Nissan Murano.
And the crossovers are where we will see some hybrid versions.
There will still be a market for big SUVs but I think sales will slow in
favor of the crossovers.
Chip Gribben
On 2/19/03 10:12 PM, "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> From: "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 17:16:34 -0800
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: OT: What's an SUV?
>
> It's getting harder to know what's an SUV and what's not. Many newer ones
> don't have boxy shapes, ouside mounted spare tires and other features that
> shout "This is an SUV!". SUVs look a lot more like minivans than they
> used to.
> Yesterday a vehicle pulled in beside our car in a parking lot and my wife
> asked "Is that an SUV?" I couldn't tell while sitting in my car. After we
> got out and I had a closer look, I decided it was a minivan because it
> had a sliding side door which I'm reasonably certain is not a feature on
> any SUV.
> So what? Who cares if it's hard to identify an SUV? For most people
> it doesn't matter. But for those people who revile SUVs, make insulting
> comments and obscene gestures to SUV drivers, complain in newspaper
> letters to the editor and on Internet discussion groups and to coworkers,
> it would be nice to know what SUVs are. A neighbor has a new vehicle
> approximately the size and shape of an SUV. Maybe I better get a closer
> look to be sure it's not a minivan before I make any snide remarks about
> his SUV when next I speak with him.
>
> Tom Shay
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I did not know if you saw the Radio Shack model 22-812 DMM is on sale for
$59.99.
http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CT
LG%5F008%5F002%5F001%5F000&product%5Fid=22%2D812
I got one for Christmas and have been using the PC data logging software
recently.
The software is free for download at http://support.radioshack.com/soft.htm
under part number 220-0812.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Fowler suggested I posted some info about my BMS, which is at the
prototype stage, so, here here's a synopsis: (thanks Mark)
[snip]
> > Anyway, yes, regulators. My design is a simple unit which connects
> > to 4 li-ion cells - each cell is monitored and regulated
> > individually. There is a 3-wire connection between all the modules,
> > and the "terminator" module has outputs to cut back the charger and
> > controller based on the voltage and temperature limits for the cells.
> > As well, that module has an RS232 output to show all the cell
> > voltages and temperatures, which can be used for logging, and there
> > are a couple of LEDs for alarm condition indication. You can also
> > change the regulation setpoints for each cell via the RS232 inerface.
> >
> > Target price will be about the same as a "rudman reg", except you're
> > getting 4 regulators in one, and a free monitoring system..
> >
[if I make modules available]
> In what form will the final product be?
> (fully assembled and tested? a bag of bits? a board and a parts list?)
It'll be a populated surface mount board, tested, but with a bit of user-effort
involved in making the connections, temp sensor gluing, shunt resistor mounting
etc. Also, the "throttle" outputs have to be interfaced to your charger and
controller - this will require a bit of ingenuity depending on the type.
Regards,
Evan.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry, I forgot that the photos wouldn't go through. Some of the photos
have been posted on the EV Club of the South website. See
http://www.evclubsouth.org/pics/evgraveyard/evgraveyard.html
-Alan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Shedd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 9:53 PM
Subject: EV1s waiting
> Attached are two photos of some of the EV1's that have been reclaimed from
> leases and are waiting in Atlanta for the truck to carry them to their
final
> parking spot. I know much has been said on the list about the waste of
> resources, how many of us would love to give one of these a good home, and
> how unfortunate the auto industry's stance is on battery-electric
vehicles.
> Many people in Atlanta used these cars as their daily transportation. I
> know they will miss them. I will miss seeing one occasionally go by on
the
> road. There's not much else to say. What the auto industry cannot or
> will not accomplish is left for us to do. Keep your EVs running and keep
> working toward your goals.
>
> -Alan
>
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
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>
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--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(Wheels to Reels, ?Santa Rosa EV drivers get a movie pass?)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV informational
purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.bayarea.com/mld/cctimes/5215670.htm
Posted on Wed, Feb. 19, 2003
Bike regularly in Santa Rosa, get a movie ticket
Associated Press
Santa Rosa - -- Ride a bike, get a movie ticket.
The city of Santa Rosa is using the silver screen as a lure to
persuade residents to leave their cars at home and pedal to work or
play.
The Wheels to Reels bicycle program has 65 people signed up so far.
Here's how it works.
Riders mark the days they've ridden to work on a card they mail to
the
office of Joan Moulthrop, Santa Rosa's transit coordinator. Ride a
minimum of eight days a month and get one movie ticket a month.
The program will also pay off for people who ride skateboards or
Rollerblades or use other non-polluting forms of transportation.
Moulthrop says she borrowed the idea from a now-defunct program in
Long Beach. Other Northern California cities -- such as Davis and
Berkeley -- are keeping an eye on Santa Rosa's progress.
(San Francisco Chronicle)
[Joan Moulthrop, TSM Coordinator, City of Santa Rosa
707.543.3336 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://ci.santa-rosa.ca.us/tp/bac/april2002notes.pdf
]
===
http://www.bikestation.org/cw_memberspecials_1.htm
City Wheels Member News Archive
CITY WHEELS MEMBERS'
NEWS VOL. I, July 24, 2002
Act now to take advantage of the latest offerings for City Wheels at
the Bikestation members:
Wheels-to-Reels
Haven't tried out the electric Ford Think yet? You have one more
reason to do it in August: Every week of the month, we'll be awarding
two free AMC movie passes to gold level members who use a Ford Think
electric car for a minimum of two hours. Members will be picked at
random every Monday and their names will be posted at the Bikestation
by 5 p.m.
[...]
-
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Tom and Seth about your comments regarding the S-10 weight
distribution and the dangers of placing too many batteries in the back. I
agree that the S-10 layout was sub-optimal. I was not involved in the
design of the battery boxes or battery placement. That truck was converted
as part of a very rushed 5-day teacher training workshop and I think the
boxes were built to minimize hassle. Although that truck has performed
adequately in autocross competitions, that is due in part to the suspension
changes and large rear tires that were also added - just as in Tom's case.
I have seen other S-10 conversions that fitted more batteries up front and
were able to locate most of rear batteries in two large boxes on each side
of the drive shaft inside the rails and in front of the axle.
One of the best layouts I've seen in an S-10 conversion I think was a
Solectria conversion. It used two smaller AC motors and gearbox fitted to
the rear differential. Without the driveshaft in the way, the entire space
between the rails could accommodate batteries. As I recall, the motors were
behind the axle but their weight was small relative to the mass of
batteries. I do not recall how many batteries were fitted in the former
engine compartment but without a motor there, there should be plenty of
space for more batteries to achieve better weight distribution. The biggest
problem I see is that the motor gearbox was custom built and the weight of
the motors is now added to the sprung weight of the rear end.
-Alan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 9:54 PM
Subject: Re: pick-up truck dimensions?
> Be careful about putting battery behind the rear axles. There's risk
> of oversteer and loss of control when the center of gravity is too
> far back. Every expert will tell you that heavy loads in a pickup
> should be placed as far forward as possible. Eight T-145s in a box
> behind the rear axle is really asking for trouble.
> If the center of gravity is too far back and the truck tends to oversteer,
> wider
> wheels and tires, more air in the rear tires and stiffer rear springs can
> cure
> the oversteer and restore safe handling at least to the extent that a
> heavily
> loaded pickup can be safe.
>
> My Ranger had 17 T-105s in the pickup box with none behind the axle
> centerline and three under the hood. It needed two leaves added to each
> rear spring to restore the rear ride height. Front/rear weights were 1640
> and 2240lbs with no driver or passenger. It did oversteer until I put
> wider wheels and tires on the rear.
>
> Tom Shay
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alan Shedd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "EVL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 7:11 PM
> Subject: Re: pick-up truck dimensions?
>
>
>
> >
> > I have helped schools with S-10 and Ranger conversions. I think the
S-10
> is
> > a little easier to convert if you are planning to put the batteries
> between
> > the frame rails. (I think this is the most secure and best looking
> method.)
> > The frame rails have a wider spacing on the S-10 than the Ranger. On
the
> > Ranger, the leaf springs are to the outside of the frame rails and the
> rails
> > are about 37" outside to outside (on an '83) On the S-10, the leaf
> springs
> > are underneath the frame rails. Also the rear suspension on the Ranger
> uses
> > staggered shocks - the one on the right is angled forward while the one
on
> > the left is angled to the rear from the axle. Further, the differential
> > housing is not centered between the rear wheels so the drive shaft runs
at
> > an angle from the back of the transmission to the differential. We were
> > able to mount 5 T-145s in the engine compartment, three T-145s turned
> > long-dimension fore and aft in a box on the left of the driveshaft in
> front
> > of the axle, two on the right side and five more in a box behind the
axle.
> > This was a long-bed truck and there was more room behind the axle to
> install
> > more batteries but the school limited the voltage to 96 (ed. program
> rules).
> > This arrangement provided good front-rear and side-to-side weight
> > distribution.
> >
> > On an S-10 conversion, we located 2 T-145s up front. Three each in boxes
> on
> > each side of the drive shaft (inside the rails) in front of the axle and
> > eight in a box behind the axle. I have several photos, dimensions, and
> can
> > put you in touch with people at each school who can run out and measure
> > things you have questions about.
>
--- End Message ---
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Those pictures brought sad tears to my eyes.
What a waste. (How American can you get?)
Patrick W.
Ashamed to be an American
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I must show my ignorance as to where the field terminals are on ADC and GE
motors. Any diagrams out there on the web? A URL ? If I do this trick with
a 12 gauge wire could I use a golfcart contactor like the one I am using
now? Maybe the 24v one from the Lectra. Wonder if they work at 36v?
Lawrence Rhodes......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: fyrehawk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 11:19 AM
Subject: Re: EV1s waiting
> Those pictures brought sad tears to my eyes.
>
> What a waste. (How American can you get?)
>
> Patrick W.
> Ashamed to be an American
>
Ho Patrick, an' All;
Yes! Tears! LOOK at ALL of them! Red Silver and other nice shiny colors,
like new! Condemmed to death, for working too well. Too American as you say!
To trash them because they work. You bet they could all be found loving
homes.
Would General Murders EVer change it's mind? Is the tooling and dye
stuff trashed, too. Could they EVer resume production? If we had another
controlled gas shortage, anyhow, SOME way to demand re-production.I still
find this whole production EV thing unbelievable, with the US poised for
war, and the OPEC people, I'm sure., poised at the taps to shut the USA
down. There should, if I were Prez,Don't worry I'm NOT running, can't afford
it, a crash program to cut oil consumption 50 percent, I 'st year, and 10
percent for the next two. Yes! Tall order, like putting guyz on the Moon in
the Kennedy years. But doable, with the Yankee inginuety that had carried
USA along in the Last Major War. I mean liberating Europe from Heil Hitler!
It was touch an" go then, for awile. Had lotsa inlaws that served, and folks
that just remember the dark, early war years.Yeah! That dates me a bit, I
guess,Wild and wooly stories from the source.
Fasst forwarding to today. The old Can Do spirit is getting overlooked,
'cept to build bigger and better weapons. Major selling point in movies
seems to be destroying things, bigger and louder special effects that are
shockingly realistic.Some of this inginuity were applied to EV technology,
as well as energy saving stuff too. So we wouldn't need so much oil. Just
the talent on this List, ganged up anf funded, could get EV's out there in
big no.s
Sorry, end of OT Rant, but hadta say something! Back to Li on batteries
and perfectly balanced batteries. Off in my EV to run errands!
Seeya
Bob
PS Didya see the sharp EV car in movie " Minority Report" best part of
the whole silly movie!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joe Smalley wrote:
>
> I did not know if you saw the Radio Shack model 22-812 DMM is on sale for
> $59.99.
>
> http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CT
> LG%5F008%5F002%5F001%5F000&product%5Fid=22%2D812
>
> I got one for Christmas and have been using the PC data logging software
> recently.
>
> The software is free for download at http://support.radioshack.com/soft.htm
> under part number 220-0812.
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I intend to get the meter, and a extra dove Bar temp sensor, with the
next incoming check.
Yea I am getting better with the camera, but I can't step back any
farther from the bench...Small shop.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob Rice wrote:
> Some of this inginuity were applied to EV
> technology, as well as energy saving stuff too. So we
> wouldn't need so much oil. Just the talent on this List,
> ganged up anf funded, could get EV's out there in big no.s
Hi Bob,
I couldn't agree more. All the talent we need is right here on this
list right now. Unfortunately, we all need our day jobs to support us.
Is there anyone on the list who knows someone with more net worth than
they will ever need, and a big heart? It's a serious question. Twenty
to thirty employees, 15000 to 20000 sq. ft., maybe fifteen million
dollars (a big chunk of that for marketing). Shoot for 200 vehicles the
first year, ramping up to 1000/year in five years. DO NOT TRY TO BE THE
NEXT GM OR FORD. Start small. Get a fully-functional EV available to
the public. Market it like the new thing it truly is. They will buy.
Then you grow.
I have zero doubt that a company made from the talent of this list could
open the eyes of the public to a whole new way to drive. The only
unknown in my mind is the certification process. How long, how much?
For that matter, the quickest way to put production EVs on the road is
simply to fund the certification and production tooling of Rick
Woodbury's Tango. Rick could probably have cars on the market within
months of certification.
This may read like the hopeful musings of an enviro-socio-idealist. Not
true. This is from an engineering manager with a pretty firm grasp of
what can and cannot be done. We are so near to making this happen, yet
so far. We could literally change the face of personal transportation.
How do we get there?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was wondering about something like this last week when I finished reading The Lost
Cord. Who owns the rights to the Tropica design? I know where most (all?) of the
drawings are but I don't know about the rights. Sadly, the molds are gone.
Nobody wanted to store them.
Steve
In a message dated 2/20/2003 1:11:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Chris Tromley"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>Bob Rice wrote:
>
>> Some of this inginuity were applied to EV
>> technology, as well as energy saving stuff too. So we
>> wouldn't need so much oil. Just the talent on this List,
>> ganged up anf funded, could get EV's out there in big no.s
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>I couldn't agree more. �All the talent we need is right here on this
>list right now. �Unfortunately, we all need our day jobs to support us.
>
>Is there anyone on the list who knows someone with more net worth than
>they will ever need, and a big heart? �It's a serious question. �Twenty
>to thirty employees, 15000 to 20000 sq. ft., maybe fifteen million
>dollars (a big chunk of that for marketing). �Shoot for 200 vehicles the
>first year, ramping up to 1000/year in five years. �DO NOT TRY TO BE THE
>NEXT GM OR FORD. �Start small. �Get a fully-functional EV available to
>the public. �Market it like the new thing it truly is. �They will buy.
>Then you grow.
>
>I have zero doubt that a company made from the talent of this list could
>open the eyes of the public to a whole new way to drive. �The only
>unknown in my mind is the certification process. �How long, how much?
>For that matter, the quickest way to put production EVs on the road is
>simply to fund the certification and production tooling of Rick
>Woodbury's Tango. �Rick could probably have cars on the market within
>months of certification.
>
>This may read like the hopeful musings of an enviro-socio-idealist. �Not
>true. �This is from an engineering manager with a pretty firm grasp of
>what can and cannot be done. �We are so near to making this happen, yet
>so far. �We could literally change the face of personal transportation.
>How do we get there?
>
>Chris
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, Feb 14, 2003 at 02:44:11PM -0500, Chris Tromley wrote:
> Damon Henry wrote:
> > Why else would they so consistently beat the "you never have
> > to plug it in" drum.
>
> I think you're right for the most part, the automakers are led around by
> their market research. But who are they asking? How many respondents
> have any experience at all with a car that needs to be plugged in?
All of them. They just don't think of plugging their car into a gasoline
outlet as "plugging in", even though that is precisely what it is.
It is also more interactive than the plugging we do, and more dangerous,
and more toxic, requires more time, is typically in a less controlled
public environment (subject to harassment, panhandling etc).
I'd rather plug in to electricity than petrol anyday.
--
____
__/o|__\~ ~ ~
`@ -----@`---(=
http://www.SoCalEV.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Christine,
Subject 1:
Below are the comments by one of the EV list guys who says (below) that
he was told by AP that the NiMH car was sold to Solectria. Is it
possible that happened without you being aware?
I would trace down the buyer if I could piece together a solid battery
pack of NiMH.
Subject 2:
Again, I must ask (3rd request) what effort is required to re-program my
car to operate with lead acid batteries?
Don Buckshot
816-582-6891 anytime
1996 NiMH Solectria Force - in-op and waiting at Solectria for repair
solution.
amadare wrote:
>
> I have emailed AEP and found out that they sold it back to Solectria.
> You can find it on Solectria's site with a TBD price. Gahanna is a NE Columbus
>suburb.
>
> Bobby R.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Bob Rice
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 11:12 AM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: 1996 NiMH Solectria Force for sale?
> >
> > Hi All;
> >
> > Open letter to Dave Roden, and other Ohioeans. Have ya checked this one out.
>If the car wasn't anygood, maybe the battery pack? Is good. But I can't get there,
>linlk doesn't work, anyhow. Gahanna anywhere
> > Akron??May ya have checked this one out?
> >
> > Seeya
> > Bob
> > >
> > > Speaking of Force's in need of repair... this goes back to October 28, 2002 so I
>don't know if it is still for sale:
> > >
> > > American Electric Power in Ohio has a 1996 with NiMH pack for sale. It
>apprarently has some problems where it "cuts out all at once" and rather than make
>more repairs they want to sell it.
> > >
> > > http://www.solectria.com/downloads/force96.pdf
> > >
> > > Kevin Dinan, 614-883-7622, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Tom Lang, 614-883-7624, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
> > > AMERICAN ELECTRIC POWER
> > > 700 Morrison Road Gahanna, OH 43230
> > >
> > >
> > > _________
> > > Jim Coate
> > > 1992 Chevy S-10
> > > 1970s Elec-Trak E20
> > > http://www.eeevee.com
> > >
> >
=======================================================
Subject:
Re: Battery Issue
Date:
Wed, 19 Feb 2003 16:55:35 -0500
From:
Christine Guzman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
References:
1
Hi Don:
Solectria has not purchased any used vehicles in several years .......do
you know who purchased
the car you are referring to? The purchases are normally made through
my dept. however since we
are no
longer manufacturing the vehicles we have not had a need for more. It
is possible a Solectria
employee may have purchased for them self we do have a lot of advocates
here for the EV's. Let
me know
if you have any further info?
Thanks,
Christine
buckshot wrote:
> Hi Christine,
> Glad to hear from you at last.
>
> I understand that Solectria has bought a NiMH car from American power. That car also
>has the
same battery problem. I bid on it at auction a couple of months ago. Did
Solectria also get the
pickup?
>
> Perhaps Solectria would be interested in using my batteries to make that a useable
>car and I
could do something else to convert mine to PbA.
> What do you think?
>
> How much re-programming is necessary for my car to run on PbA?
> Don
> 816-582-6891 mobile, anytime
>
> ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
> From: Christine Guzman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 14:47:11 -0500
>
> >Hi Don:
> >
> >My purchasing department has come back to me with the final answer on
> >the Panasonic battery option. It appears that the batteries that we
> >were trying to spec are obsolete now. It took us a while to come back
> >to you since we were checking all distributors in the U.S. and in Europe
> >for them. We were trying to locate the following batteries to no avail:
> >
> >Panasonic, Model: EC-EV1260U(12V)
> >
> >At this point the only option that I can offer is the Ovonic swap out
> >quoted. Please let me know if you would like to go forward with the
> >Ovonic option. If you choose not to go with the option please let me
> >know when you arrange pick up of the vehicle.
> >
> >Thank you,
> >Christine
> >
Fax: 781-932-9219
Work: 781-932-9009
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 20 Feb 2003 at 10:19, fyrehawk wrote:
> Those pictures brought sad tears to my eyes.
>
> What a waste. (How American can you get?)
It really is heartbreaking -- and, in my opinon, unconscionable. At least
the unwanted EVs in Europe get sold to people who want them, or so it
appears from here. Sigh.
Citizen of the world
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 20 Feb 2003 at 13:54, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Who owns the rights to the Tropica design?
I have a hazy memory of reading the rights were sold to some overseas
operation (consortium?) in Singapore or China or somewhere. But I might be
thinking of something else. Sorry to be so vague, but maybe this will jog
someone else's memory.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How about if I design a UPS that just happens to have motorized wheels?
At 09:11 PM 2/19/2003, you wrote:
Ok, I just want to also mention that although speculation is fun, we cant
buy em. Ever. I contacted them and they said their sales were directly
to business, and at this time they would only sell to the telecom
market. I have a pre-lim datasheet on their EV model, but I was told it
wont be available till '05.
-Sam
On Wednesday, February 19, 2003, at 10:11 PM, BORTEL wrote:
How about using multiple parallel strings with separate small controllers on
each string?
Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV discussion list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 6:36 PM
Subject: Re: Lithium Metal Polymer battery
The maximum 18 amps output of these Li-poly batteries is not going to
satisfy the drag racing crowd. Perhaps they could be used in some sort
of hybrid application, where the lithium batteries feed power to a small
bank of of hi power Optimas, which can provide the high amps for
acceleration.
Jay
""""""
Here's the web site for a new battery coming out of Canada from Hydro
Quebec and Kerr McGee.
http://www.hydroquebec.com/4d_includes/of_interest/PcAn2002-116.htm
Here is a link to specs. on their first production battery.
http://www.avestor.com/se48s70.ch2
Impressive specs. 3.4KwH storage and 63lbs. (28.5Kg) with a 10 year
non-prorated warranty
""""""""
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well , I lost the bid on the car , it went for $3,300 but I could'nt click
fast enough.
I had it at $3,200 but was out bid in the last 20 sec.
I will keep looking.
Not many 5 passenger EV's out there.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Tromley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 1:11 PM
Subject: RE: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff
> Bob Rice wrote:
>
> > Some of this inginuity were applied to EV
> > technology, as well as energy saving stuff too. So we
> > wouldn't need so much oil. Just the talent on this List,
> > ganged up anf funded, could get EV's out there in big no.s
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> I couldn't agree more. All the talent we need is right here on this
> list right now. Unfortunately, we all need our day jobs to support us.
>
> Is there anyone on the list who knows someone with more net worth than
> they will ever need, and a big heart? It's a serious question. Twenty
> to thirty employees, 15000 to 20000 sq. ft., maybe fifteen million
> dollars (a big chunk of that for marketing). Shoot for 200 vehicles the
> first year, ramping up to 1000/year in five years. DO NOT TRY TO BE THE
> NEXT GM OR FORD. Start small. Get a fully-functional EV available to
> the public. Market it like the new thing it truly is. They will buy.
> Then you grow.
>
> I have zero doubt that a company made from the talent of this list could
> open the eyes of the public to a whole new way to drive. The only
> unknown in my mind is the certification process. How long, how much?
> For that matter, the quickest way to put production EVs on the road is
> simply to fund the certification and production tooling of Rick
> Woodbury's Tango. Rick could probably have cars on the market within
> months of certification.
>
> This may read like the hopeful musings of an enviro-socio-idealist. Not
> true. This is from an engineering manager with a pretty firm grasp of
> what can and cannot be done. We are so near to making this happen, yet
> so far. We could literally change the face of personal transportation.
> How do we get there?
>
> Chris
>
> Hi Chris;
Thanks! You said it! So wellI'm not gunna break into the above. Just
second it. All it takes is money. SOMEbody with some bux, entertainer, Biz
guy with PILES of money laying around, and he(she) could get a tax right off
on the whole venture. as ya say, most of us on List hafta keep our day jobs,
although, Damon, Rich ,Otmar, and those guyz in the EV biz, thanks tothe
List, ready customers for their great electrical goodies. Sorta pinned my
hopes on the Good Guyz At Netgain, How much gain they can net with, to Jump
start an EV thing that could produce a turnkey EV, "Honey, remember to plug
it in when ya get back!" Type thing. We have the Hardware, need tp put
together a CAR to put it in. The Tango. Yes, good start, but we need a basic
Preus type little 'lectric 4 door sedan, Or a Parade minivan. ITT? Got yur
ears on? TALK to us, dont let that cute Mini- van die , forgotten, in some
gloomy wherehouse! ITT is(was) a Korean outfit with a nice approach to the
EV thing, a car, van style that could be USED by EVery soccer Mom out there.
Haul the whole Team to the game, then out for Victory Pizza, and drop the
guyz off at their homes, and still have enough juice for hubby and hers to
go out for dinner that nite. I havent forgotten the Think! Of course the
EV-1 is probably dead. Sigh. Buy the rites to it from General Murders! I'm
sure they would like to get rid of the whole thing. Betya they got a nice
tax writeoff? So make more for the bottom line. Sell it to us! Or the EV
fraturnity. Well, we have the talent, to copy it? Jerry Dicus, down in FLA,
howbout the Sunrise project? There is a modest beginning thing there.
I look about, the protype offerings and think, one from here one from
there. Get the Tango OUT THERE, showing what a great Station car it could
be. Forget the Sparrow! Tango makes it look silly, and works! What are we
waiting for? Rick, how ya doin" ? Close? Betya we Listers Could raise up
some money, right from the heart, and bank account, to get SOMETHING good
and running, in production. Bawl is in OUR court. I know I'm preaching to
the Choir here, but SOMEBODY'S got to do it. I sorta feel like the guy in "A
Night to Remember" the guy gathering up deck chairs on the deck of the
Titanic, hoping to string enough of them together to make a raft. Movie
didn't show him being picked up by the Carpathia, so it was for naught? As
our ship of State, the USA lumbers through an iceberg field, NOBODY
steering. Hell! At least Titanic TRIED to dodge the ' berg! With USA it
will be " Didya HEAR something??"" Gees ,there wasn't water in here before,
maybe we should DO something!?"
Seems like there are enough " Start up" type projects in the oven, sort
to speak, needing a bit of bux to get out there.But nothing like Big Biz
needs, like Detroit, to start limited production. Build two a week, out the
shop door to EV-1 refugees! Build one basic model, make it WORK, and go fron
there. You can have it in any color as long as it's Forest Green!
Hope to get a thread goin' here, of What- Can- I -Do to get meaningful
amounts of EV's out there in loving homes.Over to you! My two Watts worth.
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
