EV Digest 2606
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Civic Hybrid Upgrade
by Adam Kuehn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Thanks for everything!!! (too long, but hopefully not too boring)
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: You Don't Have to Plug It In!
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Evercell has reached cycle 352 tonight
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: pick-up truck dimensions?
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff; more!
by Rick Woodbury <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff; more!
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
8) Re: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff; more!
by "Jim Waite" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff
by Rick Woodbury <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: pick-up truck dimensions?
by "Brian Foote" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff; more!
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) Re: Field terminals for field weakening.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: You Don't Have to Plug It In!
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EV1s waiting - a hobbyest inspired corporation
by "Christian T. Kocmick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote (in response to me):
> But if it does all that, is there no performance penalty? Remember,
we are starting with the assumption that this is supposed to be an
"unlimited" range vehicle. But how do you effectively couple that
> with a need for plugging in at your destination?
I think you make a mistake assuming that gas car has unlimited range.
It's not, a gas station nozzle has to be plugged into it every
300-400 miles to replenish energy storage.
Nah. That's why "unlimited" appeared in quotation marks. I'm fully
aware that the range is not technically unlimited. On the other
hand, one can't really ignore the fact that the energy of a
standard-fuel vehicle can be fully replenished in five minutes flat
nearly anywhere. That's as practically unlimited as is reasonable to
hope for, and will not be available for pure electric vehicles any
time soon.
Lee Hart then wrote (also in response to me):
> Either you make it bullet-proof so that there is no risk to the
batteries, but take a severe performance hit when you reach
maximum safe discharge; or you accept battery damage risk to improve
system performance. I still can't see a reasonable way to meet in
the middle.
I think you are much more fearful of damaging the system than you need
to be. EVs obviously run their batteries down all the time; the good
ones still last many years. ICEs obviously run their engines under
wildly varying conditions, too -- when cold, long periods idling, lots
of stop-and-go; in fact *most* of the time they are being operated far
from their optimal point. They still last hundreds of thousands of
miles.
Combining the EV and ICE is going to be easier on *both* powerplants.
The EV will do what it does best; handle the short-range low-speed
stop-and-go driving. The ICE does what it does best; run at a constant
high-power load for long periods of time.
Hmm, yes. I suppose I've not been seriously considering a large pack
of advanced-chemistry batteries, and have been assuming that allowing
the batteries to sit in a state of advanced discharge would be
damaging. If that were not the case, then the only concern would be
the performance penalty. I guess I could at least envision
overcoming that, although I don't think it is a trivial exercise.
The Prius is a remarkable piece of engineering. I think a plug-in
version capable of 10 miles of 45mph EV-only operation would have to
be even better.
--
-Adam Kuehn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Doug;
Open letter to Doug; Thanks for sharing your EV experiance with us on the
List. Your EV family, how things went or are going. Nice to see that we can
help, that's why were here. And to have some fun on the way.
Would appear that the E bay is a very valuable resourse for EV's, that we
didn't have before. Guyz looking to get into EV's with a running (hopefully)
start. Needs Batteries, Oh well. But cheaper than buying all the stuff to do
it from scratch.
Now, all we hafta do is figure out how to get a affordable EV to the
masses?
Seeya
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: Doug Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 4:21 AM
Subject: Thanks for everything!!! (too long, but hopefully not too boring)
Hi everyone! Just wanted to give an update on the eX-1/9 (Targa-topped
former-Fiat)... Thanks to a lot of help, patient explanations of how things
work, and some BattPro modules from Ed Ang (I'm very lucky to have him
nearby), I've finally gotten it on the road. It's quite fun and will
hopefully provide me with a good learning experience as well. Unfortunately,
it's quite ugly at the moment, with two or three minor surface rust spots,
dull paint, and one rust-through just below the windshield. Fortunately,
though, I'm from Ohio and know a bit about dealing with car-cancer. The
budget should also be able to bear the cost of a decent new paint job in the
near future :^D ).
The car was originally an e-bay purchase and I actually ended up paying
more for the YT batteries than the car itself (electronics included). The
range so far is nothing to write home about (I can't quite make a round-trip
across the bay to work and back), and the acceleration in third gear is not
what I'd call incredible, but I've definitely been bitten by the bug.
I've also been very lucky in that my employer, Tellme Networks, is filled
with forward-thinking individuals (3 other EV fans/owners and a lot of
interest from many others), and so my chances of getting a charging station
installed are quite good. My co-workers tend to tease me a bit about my
range (My Optimas ran out of "zap" on the way home the one time I tried
prematurely to drive it to work), but they are also quite enthusiastic and
encouraging. Some are even aiding my efforts to set up a charging station in
our parking lot.
Actually, the only real problems I've had so far have been from breaking
parts on the base car itself (Fiats sometimes deserve their reputation...),
and the driver trying to push things a bit too far a little too early in the
learning curve. The car still needs a severe cleaning, there are a few
remaining connections to make for some of the last few gauges, and it needs
quite a bit of body work, but when it's done, it's going to be a great
little car. No, I take that back... it will probably just keep evolving and
getting better over the years - I intend to keep it on the road as long as
possible, and continue to improve it as time, budget, and technology allow.
Things I've learned so far:
1.) Don't try to find your car's limits by testing them. Gradually increase
the distance of your LOCAL trips to find how far you can go, and take note
of your battery pack's voltage drop under load at various states of
discharge. (I have no e-meter yet, so measuring energy used between charges
is still a bit beyond me).
2.) Just because the car CAN go fast doesn't mean it SHOULD. I drove about
20 miles to work at 70mph most of the way, and pushed it up to 80mph twice
to see what it could do. THIS WAS WRONG. I may have to get used to the idea
of getting passed by gas-burners, but I need to remember that I'm not in a
race. I'm in an electric vehicle - therefore I win regardless of who gets
there first.
3.) LRR tires rule - but only if they are well-enough inflated to truly be
Low Rolling Resistance. This was likely another range killer when my
batteries ran out. I was just in too much of a hurry to get it on the road.
4.) Extra-bright Halogen bulbs suck... amps. I retrofitted my car without
thinking of economizing on current draw. Mistake.
5.) Giving co-workers aggressive, tire-squealing test drives around the
parking lot is fun and can show off what the car can do, but it wastes a lot
of charge, a little bit of tire life, and is not really demonstrating the
real reason I have my car. It isn't a racer (any more, at least), and was
purchased to be a fairly efficient and ecologically-minded daily driver.
6.) Wind resistance is a killer. When I drove to work, I had the Targa top
off and the windows down. The X-1/9 is not excessively aerodynamic (but not
that bad, I suppose), but the Targa arrangement just makes it worse.
7.) Have plenty of charging options available at all times. and know where
you can cop a charge if you need one. the more adaptors you have, the
better. And a charger with settable current draw (circuit-breaker-friendly)
and the ability to take either 110V or 220V would be nice too. (Right now,
I'm not sure my Zivan can do the latter - I think 220 is about it for me!)
8.) If you can't increase your battery capacity or find another way to
increase your range per charge, at-work charging sure is a nice thing to
have.
I made every one of these mistakes on my first commute-length trip - "Just
to see what the car was capable of." - stupid me. I ended up pulled to the
side of the road beside Lockheed-Martin at eleven at night. I was frisked by
a few armed security goons when I was walking by their gate while searching
for a possible place nearby to get a recharge. I guess they though I was a
"terrorist" - they even demanded to see my drivers' license (guess they know
that terrorists don't have drivers' licenses - only piloting licenses!).
The folks at nearby Juniper Networks were helpful and even had 2 charging
stations... but they appeared to only have 110V power, and I didn't have an
adaptor to fit the socket anyway. So I had to fork over $100 or so to U-haul
for towing equipment to haul myself back home in shame.
Lessons learned. Tuition paid in full (I hope).
Things I refuse to learn:
1.)"Plain is better.": I need a Stereo, dammit! Sure it wastes energy, but
hey - I finally have a vehicle that I can HEAR the stereo in (my ICE 914
tends to be a bit rumbly and then there's also the wind noise)! There are
certain concessions here that I refuse to make. However, a decent-sized
accessory battery with a photovoltaic charger is on the drawing board too,
so a reasonable stereo could be installed with minimal impact on range.
2.) "The least amount of wind resistance possible will yield the best
possible range.": I agree with everyone on the list that good aerodynamics
are key to making a vehicle go farther. However, I refuse to leave the top
on the car. I will make the concession of removing the rear window and
replacing it with an easily removable or an hinged one - or possibly even
creating a roadster by chopping the rollbar, but California has about the
longest unbroken convertible season I know of outside of Arizona/New Mexico
and I intend to enjoy it! Besides, removing that pesky source of backdraft
will mean that I will no longer get out of the car looking like a male Liza
Minelli! There are also plenty of other wind resistance optimizations other
than putting the top back on. I'll try some of the alternatives first.
Next thing I hope to learn:
How to integrate a computer monitoring system into the car for purposes of
displaying, recording, and comparing real-time & historical stats, such as
voltage on each battery, energy consumption for trip and total consumed
between each charge, amps from each battery 10-pack pre-controller & post
controller. Historical records should be available for performance
comparisons, and thermal data measurement capabilities would also be nice,
as would charging stats (total watts input to batteries per charge, charging
time, and variances between batteries etc.) It would also be a really nice
thing to have a system that could make an estimate of % charge remaining and
approximate range left. Actual computer-controlled charging is probably not
in the near-term future, but wouldn't it be nice? In short, I want to be
able to set up a compact computer with LCD screen that would satisfy any
statistic-crazed college math major. I already have the computer hardware
sourced - the box itself is just 6"x6"x1.75" and pretty efficient because
there's no power supply - just 5Vdc input plus a little 12V for a hard disk
& CD!!! (hmm... it has audio onboard... maybe I can dual-purpose the CDROM
for stereo use! - and oh, for Ricochet service...) But anyway, I still need
to learn a lot more about available software and the data-acquisition setup.
Anyway, I mainly just wanted to share my EV experience so far, and to thank
everyone on the list for publishing their helpful advice and information.
Especially, though, I wanted to publicly thank Ed Ang for all of the help
and encouragement he has provided (as well as the BattPro modules he
practically gave me!). Without you all, I would still be stuck in the ICE
age! ...and I wouldn't get that warm, fuzzy (and smug) feeling that I now
have every time I pass the gas station, see the $2+ per gallon
"Transportation Tax / Smog Donation / Rich Oil-Producer Aid Fund
Contribution" - and pass right by.
Thanks Again!
-Doug Martin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 3:32 PM
Subject: Re: You Don't Have to Plug It In!
> Thomas Shay wrote:
> > I was a bit surprised by the howls of protests from this discussion
> > group when the Insight and Prius were introduced with no way to
> > charge them and when the makers touted that as a feature.
> Lee Hart wrote:
> We have a Prius. We live in Sartell MN, which is a small town. The
> grocery store, bank, my son's school, and where I work are all less than
> a mile away, and the speed limits to get there are 30 mph max. The
> farthest that the car normally gets driven is to my wife's job, which is
> about 5 miles away. The highest speed limit on that route is 40 mph.
> Lee, isnt that just right for yur Leopard, I met last summer, drove in it
to lunch, had plenty of get up an' go! Maybe not enough HEAT for a MN
winter?
> The Prius has enough speed and battery power to cover all of these trips
> on electric only. Since electric-only range is about 6-10 miles, my
> wife's commute is the only one that would require that she plug in at
> work or use the gasoline engine.
>
> So, it would be a big feature to us if we could run it as a pure EV, and
> charge at home in our garage. Instead of one trip to the gas station a
> month, it might be zero!
> Good Idea, whatifya could get another Preus pack, and wire it in parallel
with the one that CAME with the car. Put it in the trunk. Would it mess up
the onbored computer?
> > I had an EV for 6 years and always considered charging and upkeep
> > of batteries a flaming nuisance.
> Like beer, or Victrola records, it's an acquired taste<g>! Other than
adding water, now an' again, WHAT maintenance? Other than checking if the
terminals are tight? How much or little, depends on the charger, if yur
boiling the water out of the cells? I've sorta gotten used to dialing up
about the right charge rate, on the variac, by comparing the amps/ voltage
while it is charging. Could get fancy and use a timed circuit, to shut it
off, say ,after 8 hours. But, like riding a bicycle, you can adapt to it.
Rabbit NEVER sees a gas station. My newest sticker is above the male plug
where the gas filler WAS." Boycott OPEC, Use Electric Fuel". Of course the
old standbys still ride with me " Question Internal Combustion" and "Hey
Sadamn, Kiss my Gass I own an Electric Car. I need a " Runs on 120 volts"
too. J. Wayland, have ya any left??lectric Fuel
> Were these flooded batteries? Did you use a manual charger? How much
> time did it take, and what did you do per day?
> Musta overcharged the battery, so he hadta water it a lot?
> > It's possible to have a hybrid that needs both battery charging and
> > trips to a gas station. No thanks, I don't need that.
>
I like that you could plug it in at yur EV charging Station.
> The right way to look at it is that a hybrid needs to EITHER be plugged
> in to charge, OR a trip to a gas station. The more you use one, the less
> you use the other.
> -Sounds good to me, Lee.
Chargin' Along
Bob-@
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 1:15 PM
Subject: Re: Evercell has reached cycle 352 tonight
> Seth wrote:
> >
> > I realize this wasn't a healthy battery to begin with, but the trend
> > doesn't lend itself to believe that NiZn will have a much greater life
> > than lead-acid.
> >
> > Seth
> >
> > Joe Smalley wrote:
> > >
>
> Until you realize that these are %100 DOD cycles, and Optimas are only
> rated at 270 cycles to %80 DOD.
> It certainly looks like we will get close to 500 cycles at %50 reduction
> in capacity. This is pretty close to what they advertised.
> Very little BS.
> Most folks with AGMs had failures at 100-150 cycles. Those with real
> chargers got 250+ Those with voltage controled Chargers and Regs are
> still getting more.
> Still 1/2 the weight
> 2x the cycle life
> No thermal degradation down to 0 F.
>
> These are what sells this battery. If we could get the price down from
> 400 bucks to 250 to 300, this chemistry would burry Lead acid.
> It might anyways if they ever get here in volume.
>
Hi All;
We did have a test pilot, with Jon Sheer Pullin, with a Accord? Rich,
howz he doin? I'm afraid that he doesn't use the car to get any meaningful
tests? Sure like to see Lead batteries burried! For sure! Didn't Sheer get
over 100 miles, on a charge, at hiway speeds? Question, is: Can he still, a
few years later. Real quiet here, on the Accords life process.
> --
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
> www.manzanitamicro.com
> 1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim and All,
Having converted an S10, I agree with Alan and his list of reasons to use
an S10 (pre '94) instead of a Ranger or Asian truck for a conversion: both
rear shocks are aft mounted, frame rails are wide, drive shaft is centered.
However, you need to realize that the S10 is a piece of sh*%, and in the
words of people like Bill Dube, if you start with a gas piece of sh$@,
$6000+ and 100-200 hours later, you'll end up with an electric piece of
sh!&. I do know that new and used S10 parts are cheap and plentiful, but
again, you get what you pay for! Instead of using an S10, some people have
made suspension modifications on one of the other truck brands, and might
have ended up with a better chassis and body. After all, you'll be living
with your conversion for a while. Maybe the '94 and newer S10's are better,
and someone else can chime in and tell us.
Hope this helps,
Dave (B.B.) Hawkins
Executive VP of the Denver Electric Vehicle Council
(With an emphasis on youth education)
http://www.devc.org/
Lyons, CO
1979 Mazda RX-7 EV (192V of YT's, for the 16 year-old son!)
1989 Chevy S10 Ext. Cab (144V of floodies, for Ma and Pa only!)
>From: "Alan Shedd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 22:11:20 -0500
>
>Hi Jim:
>
>I have helped schools with S-10 and Ranger conversions. I think the S-10 is
>a little easier to convert if you are planning to put the batteries between
>the frame rails. (I think this is the most secure and best looking method.)
>The frame rails have a wider spacing on the S-10 than the Ranger. On the
>Ranger, the leaf springs are to the outside of the frame rails and the rails
>are about 37" outside to outside (on an '83) On the S-10, the leaf springs
>are underneath the frame rails. Also the rear suspension on the Ranger uses
>staggered shocks - the one on the right is angled forward while the one on
>the left is angled to the rear from the axle. Further, the differential
>housing is not centered between the rear wheels so the drive shaft runs at
>an angle from the back of the transmission to the differential. We were
>able to mount 5 T-145s in the engine compartment, three T-145s turned
>long-dimension fore and aft in a box on the left of the driveshaft in front
>of the axle, two on the right side and five more in a box behind the axle.
>This was a long-bed truck and there was more room behind the axle to install
>more batteries but the school limited the voltage to 96 (ed. program rules).
>This arrangement provided good front-rear and side-to-side weight
>distribution.
<much snipage>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob Rice Wrote:
> Get the Tango OUT THERE, showing what a great Station car it could
> be. Forget the Sparrow! Tango makes it look silly, and works! What are we
> waiting for? Rick, how ya doin" ? Close? Betya we Listers Could raise up
> some money, right from the heart, and bank account, to get SOMETHING good
> and running, in production.
After an article on the Tango in the Seattle Times we received a call from a
passenger train car manufacturer that wants to assemble Tango so bad that
they offered to put up the $500k for parts to build the first 10 cars as a
project. The catch is that they need 10 orders with deposits. I insisted
that if we took deposits that they would have to be in a neutral escrow and
fully refundable if delivery date or quality were not met. They agreed to
that. The only other problem is that we need to finish the present prototype
to Ferrari standards before we accept orders. The purchaser should know
exactly what they are going to get as well as when they'll get it before we
take an order. A major automotive/aerospace engineering firm in Portland has
agreed to do the final fit and finish as well as complete the engineering
for manufacture at their cost--$60k. They will commit to this figure even if
they spend more time than anticipated. We still need to find $60k though.
I met with Dr. Lloyd, Director of CARB last week as well as top officials at
CalTrans and the CHP. Things look very promising for legislative incentives
for the Tango. We have a lot of new material on our downloads page that
support these changes--two studies on the GM lean machine by the
Transportation Department at UC Berkeley and two more studies by Booze,
Allen and Hamilton that strongly support the UNV (Ultra-Narrow Vehicle)
concept.
See: http://www.commutercars.com/downloads
Dr. Lloyd did not think it unreasonable for the State of CA to purchase a
high volume of Tangos to lease out to individuals in urban areas in order to
reduce highway and parking congestion, remove fossil fuel dependence, and
meet the ZEV goals for the state if the state didn't have such financial
problems. We would happily license the patent to the state for next to
nothing just to get the ball rolling. They could go out to bid for
manufacturing the Tangos just as they would for a light rail project. Tangos
could then be leased out for about $100 per month. If CA can't afford to do
it, is there another state that's as forward thinking that has the funds to
invest in a revolutionary project like this? The $9k ZEV incentive that CA
was paying would just about pay for a high-volume produced Tango--and they
wouldn't have to just give it away. $100 a month would be a reasonable
return on the investment. The $2B initial investment is the only problem.
That's all for now.
Best wishes,
Rick
Rick Woodbury Phone: (509) 624-0762
President, Commuter Cars Corporation Toll-free: (800) 468-0944
Doubling the capacity of freeways Fax: (509) 624-1466
Quadrupling the capacity of parking Cellular: (509) 979-1815
Zero to 60 in under 4 seconds
715 E. Sprague Ave., Suite 114 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Spokane, WA 99202 Web: http://www.commutercars.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is that $ 2B mean that the Tango needs $ 2 Billion to get into mass
production (for certification, crash testing, and assembly plant) ?
What volume can be produced for that sizeable investment ?
Where can any state, especially CA, get that much money when it has a
budget deficit of $ 35 Billion ?
On Sat, 22 Feb 2003 13:10:47 -0800 Rick Woodbury <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
> Bob Rice Wrote:
>
> > Get the Tango OUT THERE, showing what a great Station car it could
> > be. Forget the Sparrow! Tango makes it look silly, and works! What
> are we
> > waiting for? Rick, how ya doin" ? Close? Betya we Listers Could
> raise up
> > some money, right from the heart, and bank account, to get
> SOMETHING good
> > and running, in production.
>
> After an article on the Tango in the Seattle Times we received a
> call from a
> passenger train car manufacturer that wants to assemble Tango so bad
> that
> they offered to put up the $500k for parts to build the first 10
> cars as a
> project. The catch is that they need 10 orders with deposits. I
> insisted
> that if we took deposits that they would have to be in a neutral
> escrow and
> fully refundable if delivery date or quality were not met. They
> agreed to
> that. The only other problem is that we need to finish the present
> prototype
> to Ferrari standards before we accept orders. The purchaser should
> know
> exactly what they are going to get as well as when they'll get it
> before we
> take an order. A major automotive/aerospace engineering firm in
> Portland has
> agreed to do the final fit and finish as well as complete the
> engineering
> for manufacture at their cost--$60k. They will commit to this figure
> even if
> they spend more time than anticipated. We still need to find $60k
> though.
>
> I met with Dr. Lloyd, Director of CARB last week as well as top
> officials at
> CalTrans and the CHP. Things look very promising for legislative
> incentives
> for the Tango. We have a lot of new material on our downloads page
> that
> support these changes--two studies on the GM lean machine by the
> Transportation Department at UC Berkeley and two more studies by
> Booze,
> Allen and Hamilton that strongly support the UNV (Ultra-Narrow
> Vehicle)
> concept.
>
> See: http://www.commutercars.com/downloads
>
> Dr. Lloyd did not think it unreasonable for the State of CA to
> purchase a
> high volume of Tangos to lease out to individuals in urban areas in
> order to
> reduce highway and parking congestion, remove fossil fuel
> dependence, and
> meet the ZEV goals for the state if the state didn't have such
> financial
> problems. We would happily license the patent to the state for next
> to
> nothing just to get the ball rolling. They could go out to bid for
> manufacturing the Tangos just as they would for a light rail
> project. Tangos
> could then be leased out for about $100 per month. If CA can't
> afford to do
> it, is there another state that's as forward thinking that has the
> funds to
> invest in a revolutionary project like this? The $9k ZEV incentive
> that CA
> was paying would just about pay for a high-volume produced
> Tango--and they
> wouldn't have to just give it away. $100 a month would be a
> reasonable
> return on the investment. The $2B initial investment is the only
> problem.
>
> That's all for now.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Rick
>
> Rick Woodbury Phone: (509)
> 624-0762
> President, Commuter Cars Corporation Toll-free: (800)
> 468-0944
> Doubling the capacity of freeways Fax: (509)
> 624-1466
> Quadrupling the capacity of parking Cellular: (509)
> 979-1815
> Zero to 60 in under 4 seconds
> 715 E. Sprague Ave., Suite 114 Email:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Spokane, WA 99202 Web:
> http://www.commutercars.com
>
>
________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Rick, Chris, & All,
#1.)
---<a few days ago, Chris wrote>---
-Twenty to thirty employees, 15000 to 20000 sq. ft., maybe fifteen million
-dollars (a big chunk of that for marketing). Shoot for 200 vehicles the
-first year,...
...How do we get there?
---<snip>---
My reply to you & the EVDL (which it turns out I did not send) began with
>>>>M-O-N-E-Y<<<<
I then went on to discuss some refined dollar & vehicle figures to yours as well as
*other* considerations.
Frankly, I've been agonizing over this for the past couple of days....
----<today Rick wrote>---
After an article on the Tango in the Seattle Times we received a call...
...We still need to find $60K though.
---<snip>---
Rick: THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!!
My agony is over (or at least part of it anyway: Rick, do know how long some of those
articles/studies take to download
& read!:-)
So now you have ALL of the story LISTers.
Back to your first question Chris, "How do we get there?" you ask?
Let's see, there's how many EV Listers are there? 1,200? 1,500?
If half of the EVDL sent $100 to CommuterCars, would this not get the ball rolling?
Who else has their checkbook out? Let's face it folks, THIS is war, OUR war!
You know I continuously drove my EV for 6 long years (the first 3 without heat I might
add).
I patiently answering questions for those VERY few who even bothered to show interest.
Did I make a dent? Maybe (I am proud to say there were a couple of other EV's spawned
from my example,
just as my EV experience followed on the heels of those before me).
But frankly it simply didn't produce the results I had hoped for.
Rick, if I and this LIST can do anything constructive to FINALLY get a production EV
on the road, I'd say we've heard
THE call to arms.
How about it LISTers?
My checks in the mail to you Rick, I hope the other 599+ arrive in the next week also.
#2.)
The next/critical CARB meeting in Sacramento is just over 4 weeks away, and I'm
strongly considering flying
down to show/voice my support. Could one of the active players (Greg Hanssen, Bruce,
Rick, whoever?) refresh me as to
the links, discussions, meetings and so on which are being planned in preparation for
this meeting? My apologies to the
LIST if this has already been recently covered. I guess I'm just starting to get a bit
more edgy about this whole damn
situation (worldwide, EV, & otherwise).
Best regards,
Jim Waite
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> That's all well and maybe good, but what does the business plan tell you
> about a market for selling a hundred thousand plus EVs and not just a few
> hundred sports cars ?
The key to selling 100,000+ EVs per year is to give a benefit to the
consumer that is more tangible than feeling good about their contribution to
the planet. We think the Tango accomplishes this. Please see:
http://www.commutercars.com/downloads
then go to "Complete Studies" and read "Lean Machines: Preliminary
Investigations" and "Road Infrastructure Requirements for Small Vehicles"
both from Dr. William Garrison, Institute of Transportation Studies, UC
Berkeley. They are referencing the Lean Machine, a Proof-of-Concept car of
approximately the same dimensions as the Tango designed by GM. The Tango, by
being 7" shorter than the Lean Machine can park perpendicular to the curb
like a motorcycle to add even more benefit to the consumer than the Lean
Machine. The fact that the Tango is electric allows it to be higher and more
visible because of the ballast of the batteries. It also allows it to be
safer in a crash than probably any other production car. The ballast is
sufficient to allow a NHTSA 5 star static rollover stability rating (the
Blazer only has a 1 star rating) and yet support a full NASCAR spec roll
cage. The Tango also drives like a normal car and doesn't have to be leaned
in order to corner thus allowing a normal level of driver skill. Because the
average commuter only travels 22 miles, the fact that it's electric doesn't
detract much for this niche in the market. This niche may be over 50 million
Americans alone as over 92 million Americans drive to work in a car by
themselves every day. That's 78% of all workers which includes even those
that work at home. I was offended when one of the NHTSA officials in
Washington DC said we had a niche vehicle. I said that it could be over 50
million cars in the US alone. The official agreed and said "I didn't say it
was a small niche." I'm not offended by the term any more. It will rarely be
a first car in a family any more than an EV will be. By specializing in the
combined benefits of EV and UNV (Ultra-Narrow Vehicle) the synergy could
fill the 2nd car niche very well.
Using the average of 3 methodologies to calculate the Lean Machine's market
penetration in California, the Booze, Allen and Hamilton study projects the
High annual sales to be 106,762 per year in CA alone. The low is 30,946
annual production. Saturation is figured at 1,281,148 for the high, and
371,348 for the low. The Lean Machine is gasoline powered, is about 3' wide,
9' long and 4' high. The height in combination with its other dimensions
would seem to create a visibility problem especially amongst so many SUVs.
The key is to produce 100,000 a year production so that the price can start
at $10,000 or so. This requires at least a $1 billion investment. An auto
company is unlikely to risk this as every time they even slightly stray from
the status quo, they chance getting severely burned. The Edsel and Aztec are
some examples. A government or an initiative is another way to accomplish
this initial volume. The benefits could be thought to outweigh the risks
since they don't necessarily have to make a profit on the project. They
certainly don't when they build commuter rail.
The good news is that we don't have to start building cars for the average
commuter. There are plenty that can afford a $40k+ car. We start there. As
the cars become more popular and people see the parking benefits, for
example, then with more volume the price comes down. With a $25 million
investment, then, an $18,700 Tango could be built at 10,000 per annum
production. Many more will buy these until the 100,000 per annum could be
justified with little risk. PCs and CDs didn't start out cheap at 100,000
units per year. Why should we expect the Commuter Car to?
Rick Woodbury Phone: (509) 624-0762
President, Commuter Cars Corporation Toll-free: (800) 468-0944
Doubling the capacity of freeways Fax: (509) 624-1466
Quadrupling the capacity of parking Cellular: (509) 979-1815
Zero to 60 in under 4 seconds
715 E. Sprague Ave., Suite 114 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Spokane, WA 99202 Web: http://www.commutercars.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In case anyone's interested, here's a picture I took a while back of my '90
Toyota standard cab/standard bed pickup with the bed taken off:
http://www30.brinkster.com/icrushyo/Twain13.gif
The bed mounts on two of the holes at the back of the rails and at the front
on the little pillars coming up from the rails. It looks like there's a
fair amount of room between the rails where the gas tank and muffler are
now. I don't have measurements handy but I could probably be conviced to go
take some if anyone's interested. I haven't looked under the bed of the
longbed version of this truck but from the outside it looks like the only
differences are behind the wheels.
The Toyota Tacoma (95 and up, I believe) is a redesign and may or may not
have the same configuration.
Many areas have self-service junkyards such as Pick-n-pull where you can
just wander around all day looking at various cars/trucks, pulling parts
off them, measuring, etc.
http://www.picknpull.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Are you purchasing stock in the company or simply giving a gift ??
On Sat, 22 Feb 2003 14:53:39 -0800 "Jim Waite" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
> Hi Rick, Chris, & All,
>
> #1.)
> ---<a few days ago, Chris wrote>---
> -Twenty to thirty employees, 15000 to 20000 sq. ft., maybe fifteen
> million
> -dollars (a big chunk of that for marketing). Shoot for 200 vehicles
> the
> -first year,...
> ...How do we get there?
> ---<snip>---
>
> My reply to you & the EVDL (which it turns out I did not send) began
> with
> >>>>M-O-N-E-Y<<<<
> I then went on to discuss some refined dollar & vehicle figures to
> yours as well as *other* considerations.
> Frankly, I've been agonizing over this for the past couple of
> days....
>
> ----<today Rick wrote>---
> After an article on the Tango in the Seattle Times we received a
> call...
> ...We still need to find $60K though.
> ---<snip>---
>
> Rick: THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!!
> My agony is over (or at least part of it anyway: Rick, do know how
> long some of those articles/studies take to download
> & read!:-)
>
> So now you have ALL of the story LISTers.
>
> Back to your first question Chris, "How do we get there?" you ask?
> Let's see, there's how many EV Listers are there? 1,200? 1,500?
> If half of the EVDL sent $100 to CommuterCars, would this not get
> the ball rolling?
> Who else has their checkbook out? Let's face it folks, THIS is war,
> OUR war!
>
> You know I continuously drove my EV for 6 long years (the first 3
> without heat I might add).
> I patiently answering questions for those VERY few who even bothered
> to show interest.
> Did I make a dent? Maybe (I am proud to say there were a couple of
> other EV's spawned from my example,
> just as my EV experience followed on the heels of those before me).
> But frankly it simply didn't produce the results I had hoped for.
>
> Rick, if I and this LIST can do anything constructive to FINALLY get
> a production EV on the road, I'd say we've heard
> THE call to arms.
>
> How about it LISTers?
> My checks in the mail to you Rick, I hope the other 599+ arrive in
> the next week also.
>
> #2.)
> The next/critical CARB meeting in Sacramento is just over 4 weeks
> away, and I'm strongly considering flying
> down to show/voice my support. Could one of the active players (Greg
> Hanssen, Bruce, Rick, whoever?) refresh me as to
> the links, discussions, meetings and so on which are being planned
> in preparation for this meeting? My apologies to the
> LIST if this has already been recently covered. I guess I'm just
> starting to get a bit more edgy about this whole damn
> situation (worldwide, EV, & otherwise).
>
> Best regards,
> Jim Waite
>
>
________________________________________________________________
Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
Only $9.95 per month!
Visit www.juno.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a GE 5BC48JB141. 2HP. 36V. A52 3300 RPM
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 9:08 AM
Subject: Re: Field terminals for field weakening.
> "give me a kick in the pants."
> Actually by weakening the field you will have less available
> torque but the motor will run at a higher speed (load depending).
> When you weaken the field the motor will most likely run in
> a more inefficient portion of the torque speed curve.
> If you weaken the field too much you will draw excessive motor current and
> will be very ineffiecient and can possibly damage the commutator from
excessive
> sparking (which will get worse with higher voltage, especially when using
higher
> voltage than the motor nameplate).
> A series motor is really a comprimise to run well over a range of speeds
for a given
> vehicle. Field weakening will probably improve performance as long as you
don't over
> weaken. I would recommend getting some Ni-Chrome FW resistors from a
forklift repair shop.
> I would not FW more than 30%.
> A shunt motor definately has advantages (in my opinion) over the series
motor
> since it is much easier to weeken the field and you can easily regen.
>
> I have 3 golf cart motors and one NEV motor in the basement, all of them
> are GE. 3 of them have clear markings for S1, S2(F1 and F2 on the shunt
motors)
> , A1 & A2. One of the series motors had the nomenclature for the
terminals
> stamped on the endbell casting and it was difficult to read.
> Does your motor have a nameplate? If so, what is the GE part number?
> Rod
>
>
>
> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >>S1 & A1 are the positive and negative connections on the A89. S2 & A2
are
> >>connected. A 1204 is used. For a little turbo action I would use a
relay
> >>so that when I am at full throttle it would activate the contactor and
> >>
> >>
> >shunt
> >
> >
> >>S1 & S2. I guess it would give me a kick in the pants.
> >>For the Golf cart it has a GE motor with two connections on one side of
> >>
> >>
> >the
> >
> >
> >>butt end(Negative and Reverse) and one on the other side(Positive from
the
> >>contactor controller). On the other end on the same side as the two
> >>connections is another connection(Forward). There do not seem to be
> >>any markings on the terminals of the GE motor. I see no other
terminals.
> >>What are the field connections. Thanks for the help Lee. Lawrence
> >>Rhodes.....
> >>----- Original Message -----
> >>From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 4:41 PM
> >>Subject: Re: Field terminals for field weakening.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>I must show my ignorance as to where the field terminals are on ADC
> >>>>and GE motors.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>The field terminals are marked S1 and S2, and located along the side of
> >>>the motor. The armature terminals are marked A1 and A2, and both
located
> >>>at the end with the brushes.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>If I do this trick with a 12 gauge wire could I use a golfcart
> >>>>contactor like the one I am using now?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>First, don't try this with a PWM controller! The voltage across the
> >>>field is not DC; it also has a peak-peak AC voltage nearly full pack
> >>>voltage! Since there is negligible inductance in that piece of 12-gauge
> >>>wire, the peak currents in it would be tremendous!
> >>>
> >>>So, the only way you can use field weakening with a PWM controller is
if
> >>>you only allow the weakening resistor to be switched in when the
> >>>controller is FULL ON.
> >>>
> >>>But, you are right that a lower voltage contactor can be used to switch
> >>>the field weakening resistor in/out. As long as the controller isn't
> >>>switching, there is very little voltage across the field.
> >>>--
> >>>Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> >>>814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> >>>Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> >>>leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>> We have a Prius... The grocery store, bank, my son's school, and
>> where I work are all less than a mile away, and the speed limits
>> to get there are 30 mph max. The farthest that the car normally
>> gets driven is to my wife's job, which is about 5 miles away. The >> highest speed
>> limit on that route is 40 mph.
Bob Rice wrote:
> Lee, isnt that just right for yur Leopard?
Yes, my LeCar EV does it all just fine. But, my wife won't drive it. For
some reason, she prefers a 2001 Prius to a 1980 Renault. I can't figure
out why :-)
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sam,
A new Honda S2000 retails for around $32,000, so you might be able to put
more money into a sports EV conversion.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Harper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 11:17 PM
Subject: Re: EV1s waiting - a hobbyest inspired corporation
> I completely agree, but I need to figure out some numbers first.
> I cant see people paying the below price for this:
> A completely rebuilt Honda Civic del Sol (or insert any other semi-cool
> early/mid 90s sports car available used for $3k, and rebuildable (new
> seats, new interior panels, paint job, CVT transmission, etc.) for a
> total of another $4k, or SAFE kit car, making your donor no more than
> $7k), with awesome AC drive system (100kw, mmm, around $6k, inverter,
> drive, contactors, etc.), 252volt 100ah volt thunder-sky li-ion pack
> ($7800, begging for the 1000count price, while only buying 300, but
> promising to buy more in the future), various welding and modifications
> (AC, power brakes/stearing, $1k), useable charger/BMS (maybe inductive?
> budget of $4k), all those other little things needed (e-meter or cooler
> replacement, LRR tires, brakes, a badge, who knows, budget of $1k). I
> know some of these numbers I pulled out of a hat, but I cant see anyone
> paying $26,500 for an electric sports car, and we'd need to sell 50.
> Can someone find a way to either get a better donor, or something that
> would make the car sellable at that price? I feel that the AC drive
> system and Li-Ion batteries are on the necessity list, as a vehicle
> worth any money needs to have a decent range with some wiggle room, but
> still perform. Please help me build on this.
>
> -Sam
> On Thursday, February 20, 2003, at 06:42 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Ok, so lets get together and write a business plan to get funding and
> > start this dream now.
> >
> > On Thu, 20 Feb 2003 16:29:48 -500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> >> Count me in. :) I have a little funding available to me, but nothing
> >> near 15 million. I'd love to do this, buit lack some time (being a
> >> student), and the experience (although interested and
> >> semi-competant). I wish this stuff was a little cheaper, then I'd
> >> be all over it.
> >>
> >> -Sam
> >>> Bob Rice wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Some of this inginuity were applied to EV
> >>>> technology, as well as energy saving stuff too. So we
> >>>> wouldn't need so much oil. Just the talent on this List,
> >>>> ganged up anf funded, could get EV's out there in big no.s
> >>>
> >>> Hi Bob,
> >>>
> >>> I couldn't agree more. All the talent we need is right here on
> >> this
> >>> list right now. Unfortunately, we all need our day jobs to
> >> support us.
> >>>
> >>> Is there anyone on the list who knows someone with more net worth
> >> than
> >>> they will ever need, and a big heart? It's a serious question.
> >> Twenty
> >>> to thirty employees, 15000 to 20000 sq. ft., maybe fifteen million
> >>> dollars (a big chunk of that for marketing). Shoot for 200
> >> vehicles the
> >>> first year, ramping up to 1000/year in five years. DO NOT TRY TO
> >> BE THE
> >>> NEXT GM OR FORD. Start small. Get a fully-functional EV
> >> available to
> >>> the public. Market it like the new thing it truly is. They will
> >> buy.
> >>> Then you grow.
> >>>
> >>> I have zero doubt that a company made from the talent of this list
> >> could
> >>> open the eyes of the public to a whole new way to drive. The only
> >>> unknown in my mind is the certification process. How long, how
> >> much?
> >>> For that matter, the quickest way to put production EVs on the
> >> road is
> >>> simply to fund the certification and production tooling of Rick
> >>> Woodbury's Tango. Rick could probably have cars on the market
> >> within
> >>> months of certification.
> >>>
> >>> This may read like the hopeful musings of an
> >> enviro-socio-idealist. Not
> >>> true. This is from an engineering manager with a pretty firm
> >> grasp of
> >>> what can and cannot be done. We are so near to making this
> >> happen, yet
> >>> so far. We could literally change the face of personal
> >> transportation.
> >>> How do we get there?
> >>>
> >>> Chris
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > ________________________________________________________________
> > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
> > Only $9.95 per month!
> > Visit www.juno.com
> >
>
>
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