EV Digest 2607
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) S-10 problems (was pick-up truck dimensions?)
by "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) Waah!!!
by "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff; more!
by "Jim Waite" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Was Re: EV1s waiting/hobbyist insp., now CivicWithACord status
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Field terminals for field weakening.
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: pick-up truck dimensions?
by Chris Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Waah!!!
by "Neil Adams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: ev tax credit question
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Waah!!!
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Inspired Corporation's Product - Part 2 (long, but please read!)
by Sam Harper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: You Don't Have to Plug It In!
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Waah!!!
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Thanks for everything!!! (too long, but hopefully not too boring)
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: New Product - AC Drive System
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: BMS cost (was Re: LIN bus link)
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
18) Evercel themal behavior
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) sign off
by "Chad" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) EVLN(The great Segway debate)-Long
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
It sounds like you believe that something or several things are seriously
wrong
with S-10s. Please tell us what the problem or problems are. If we are
going
to take your comments seriously, we need to know why.
Tom Shay
----- Original Message -----
From: "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 12:39 PM
Subject: Re: pick-up truck dimensions?
> Jim and All,
> Having converted an S10, I agree with Alan and his list of reasons to use
> an S10 (pre '94) instead of a Ranger or Asian truck for a conversion: both
> rear shocks are aft mounted, frame rails are wide, drive shaft is
centered.
> However, you need to realize that the S10 is a piece of sh*%, and in the
> words of people like Bill Dube, if you start with a gas piece of sh$@,
> $6000+ and 100-200 hours later, you'll end up with an electric piece of
> sh!&. I do know that new and used S10 parts are cheap and plentiful, but
> again, you get what you pay for! Instead of using an S10, some people have
> made suspension modifications on one of the other truck brands, and might
> have ended up with a better chassis and body. After all, you'll be living
> with your conversion for a while. Maybe the '94 and newer S10's are
better,
> and someone else can chime in and tell us.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I hope you do sell enough Tango's at $ 40k+ to acquire the $ 25 million
required to reduce the price to $ 18,700, but it may not be in our
lifetime
unless gasoline and diesel prices increase to equal those in Europe.
I am not so sure that people who can afford $ 40k+ SUVs will buy another
(2nd or 3rd) vehicle at a comparable price with such limited abilities.
They certainly can not replace the utility of their SUV with a Tango.
$ 25 million / $ 1000 profit per Tango = 25000 Tangos
How many are you planning to build each of the first how many years ?
Ok, everyone is entitled to their opinion and only time will tell who is
right.
I really hope you are.
On Sat, 22 Feb 2003 15:18:05 -0800 Rick Woodbury <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
> The key is to produce 100,000 a year production so that the price
> can start
> at $10,000 or so. This requires at least a $1 billion investment. An
> auto
> company is unlikely to risk this as every time they even slightly
> stray from
> the status quo, they chance getting severely burned. The Edsel and
> Aztec are
> There are plenty that can afford a $40k+ car.
> With a $25 million investment, then, an $18,700 Tango could be built at
>10,000 per annum production.
> Many more will buy these until the 100,000 per annum
> could be justified with little risk.
________________________________________________________________
Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
Only $9.95 per month!
Visit www.juno.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, I've been driving the Prizm around lightly this winter, and ever since
it got cold, I've only been able to get 12amps tops out of the pack before
the car was out. (52ah pack)
Thought it was because of the cold, so I did a quick test in the shed. Took
a Hawker battery, charged it up, discharged it under C conditions (26ah).
Lasted for 30 mins before dropping below 11 volts.
Which means it should have an effective capacity of 13 amp/hours. Now the
car has two sets of these in series, so it should be able to put out
26amp/hours. And I'm getting only 12.
Sounds like one of the batteries opened up again in the pack. Drat. When I
dropped the pack in the fall I found one battery that read 12.8 but as soon
as any load was placed on it it dropped to zero volts.
Why does this happen if I might ask?
Chris
(yes, yes, I know: I have to replace the whole pack. Waah...)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
---<you asked>---
-Are you purchasing stock in the company or simply giving a gift ??
---<snip>---
I probably screwed up & threw away at least $100 worth of sheet metal, screws, & wire,
etc. when I put Battcar together
in '95. So I guess I'd like to say this is my contribution to Rick's guys in Portland
who're gonna make the first
Ferrari-like
Tango's right.
If I want stock, It'll hopefully be in the form of Rick's Foxtrot since as much as I'd
love own one of the first 10, I
definitively can't afford it. (see pg. 8 of Rick's Market Strategy linked from his
download page
http://www.commutercars.com/ )
Jim Waite
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey, while you're suggesting mid-90's gliders for the
business, I've determined that I will be putting 3x3
yes, 9 batteries in the cavernous spare tire well.
The thing is huge, and it will stay low and between
the axles. I can place one more behind the taillight,
and the charger behind the other taillight, leaving 8
batteries under the hood.
I have a meticulous senior high schooler working on
welding the battery racks.
I have just found a buyer for the block via a local
advertisement.
This is getting cool!
--- "Christian T. Kocmick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Sam,
> A new Honda S2000 retails for around $32,000, so you
> might be able to put
> more money into a sports EV conversion.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sam Harper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 11:17 PM
> Subject: Re: EV1s waiting - a hobbyest inspired
> corporation
>
>
> > I completely agree, but I need to figure out some
> numbers first.
> > I cant see people paying the below price for this:
> > A completely rebuilt Honda Civic del Sol (or
> insert any other semi-cool
> > early/mid 90s sports car available used for $3k,
> and rebuildable (new
> > seats, new interior panels, paint job, CVT
> transmission, etc.) for a
> > total of another $4k, or SAFE kit car, making your
> donor no more than
> > $7k), with awesome AC drive system (100kw, mmm,
> around $6k, inverter,
> > drive, contactors, etc.), 252volt 100ah volt
> thunder-sky li-ion pack
> > ($7800, begging for the 1000count price, while
> only buying 300, but
> > promising to buy more in the future), various
> welding and modifications
> > (AC, power brakes/stearing, $1k), useable
> charger/BMS (maybe inductive?
> > budget of $4k), all those other little things
> needed (e-meter or cooler
> > replacement, LRR tires, brakes, a badge, who
> knows, budget of $1k). I
> > know some of these numbers I pulled out of a hat,
> but I cant see anyone
> > paying $26,500 for an electric sports car, and
> we'd need to sell 50.
> > Can someone find a way to either get a better
> donor, or something that
> > would make the car sellable at that price? I feel
> that the AC drive
> > system and Li-Ion batteries are on the necessity
> list, as a vehicle
> > worth any money needs to have a decent range with
> some wiggle room, but
> > still perform. Please help me build on this.
> >
> > -Sam
> > On Thursday, February 20, 2003, at 06:42 PM,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > > Ok, so lets get together and write a business
> plan to get funding and
> > > start this dream now.
> > >
> > > On Thu, 20 Feb 2003 16:29:48 -500
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> > >> Count me in. :) I have a little funding
> available to me, but nothing
> > >> near 15 million. I'd love to do this, buit
> lack some time (being a
> > >> student), and the experience (although
> interested and
> > >> semi-competant). I wish this stuff was a
> little cheaper, then I'd
> > >> be all over it.
> > >>
> > >> -Sam
> > >>> Bob Rice wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> Some of this inginuity were applied to EV
> > >>>> technology, as well as energy saving stuff
> too. So we
> > >>>> wouldn't need so much oil. Just the talent on
> this List,
> > >>>> ganged up anf funded, could get EV's out
> there in big no.s
> > >>>
> > >>> Hi Bob,
> > >>>
> > >>> I couldn't agree more. All the talent we need
> is right here on
> > >> this
> > >>> list right now. Unfortunately, we all need
> our day jobs to
> > >> support us.
> > >>>
> > >>> Is there anyone on the list who knows someone
> with more net worth
> > >> than
> > >>> they will ever need, and a big heart? It's a
> serious question.
> > >> Twenty
> > >>> to thirty employees, 15000 to 20000 sq. ft.,
> maybe fifteen million
> > >>> dollars (a big chunk of that for marketing).
> Shoot for 200
> > >> vehicles the
> > >>> first year, ramping up to 1000/year in five
> years. DO NOT TRY TO
> > >> BE THE
> > >>> NEXT GM OR FORD. Start small. Get a
> fully-functional EV
> > >> available to
> > >>> the public. Market it like the new thing it
> truly is. They will
> > >> buy.
> > >>> Then you grow.
> > >>>
> > >>> I have zero doubt that a company made from the
> talent of this list
> > >> could
> > >>> open the eyes of the public to a whole new way
> to drive. The only
> > >>> unknown in my mind is the certification
> process. How long, how
> > >> much?
> > >>> For that matter, the quickest way to put
> production EVs on the
> > >> road is
> > >>> simply to fund the certification and
> production tooling of Rick
> > >>> Woodbury's Tango. Rick could probably have
> cars on the market
> > >> within
> > >>> months of certification.
> > >>>
> > >>> This may read like the hopeful musings of an
> > >> enviro-socio-idealist. Not
> > >>> true. This is from an engineering manager
> with a pretty firm
> > >> grasp of
> > >>> what can and cannot be done. We are so near
> to making this
> > >> happen, yet
> > >>> so far. We could literally change the face of
> personal
> > >> transportation.
> > >>> How do we get there?
> > >>>
> > >>> Chris
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
________________________________________________________________
> > > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
> > > Only $9.95 per month!
> > > Visit www.juno.com
> > >
> >
> >
>
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I checked the motors in my basement and they all had numbers greater than
B141 (yours was a 5BC48JB141). I had a JB896 taken from a 94 EZ-GO,
so I suspect your's is a very old series wound. I would think the
series field
winding is not much different though, I'll have to check the specs and
see what
kind of FW resistor can be used.
Rod
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
I have a GE 5BC48JB141. 2HP. 36V. A52 3300 RPM
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 9:08 AM
Subject: Re: Field terminals for field weakening.
"give me a kick in the pants."
Actually by weakening the field you will have less available
torque but the motor will run at a higher speed (load depending).
When you weaken the field the motor will most likely run in
a more inefficient portion of the torque speed curve.
If you weaken the field too much you will draw excessive motor current and
will be very ineffiecient and can possibly damage the commutator from
excessive
sparking (which will get worse with higher voltage, especially when using
higher
voltage than the motor nameplate).
A series motor is really a comprimise to run well over a range of speeds
for a given
vehicle. Field weakening will probably improve performance as long as you
don't over
weaken. I would recommend getting some Ni-Chrome FW resistors from a
forklift repair shop.
I would not FW more than 30%.
A shunt motor definately has advantages (in my opinion) over the series
motor
since it is much easier to weeken the field and you can easily regen.
I have 3 golf cart motors and one NEV motor in the basement, all of them
are GE. 3 of them have clear markings for S1, S2(F1 and F2 on the shunt
motors)
, A1 & A2. One of the series motors had the nomenclature for the
terminals
stamped on the endbell casting and it was difficult to read.
Does your motor have a nameplate? If so, what is the GE part number?
Rod
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
S1 & A1 are the positive and negative connections on the A89. S2 & A2
are
connected. A 1204 is used. For a little turbo action I would use a
relay
so that when I am at full throttle it would activate the contactor and
shunt
S1 & S2. I guess it would give me a kick in the pants.
For the Golf cart it has a GE motor with two connections on one side of
the
butt end(Negative and Reverse) and one on the other side(Positive from
the
contactor controller). On the other end on the same side as the two
connections is another connection(Forward). There do not seem to be
any markings on the terminals of the GE motor. I see no other
terminals.
What are the field connections. Thanks for the help Lee. Lawrence
Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 4:41 PM
Subject: Re: Field terminals for field weakening.
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
I must show my ignorance as to where the field terminals are on ADC
and GE motors.
The field terminals are marked S1 and S2, and located along the side of
the motor. The armature terminals are marked A1 and A2, and both
located
at the end with the brushes.
If I do this trick with a 12 gauge wire could I use a golfcart
contactor like the one I am using now?
First, don't try this with a PWM controller! The voltage across the
field is not DC; it also has a peak-peak AC voltage nearly full pack
voltage! Since there is negligible inductance in that piece of 12-gauge
wire, the peak currents in it would be tremendous!
So, the only way you can use field weakening with a PWM controller is
if
you only allow the weakening resistor to be switched in when the
controller is FULL ON.
But, you are right that a lower voltage contactor can be used to switch
the field weakening resistor in/out. As long as the controller isn't
switching, there is very little voltage across the field.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 03:19 PM 2/22/2003 -0800, Brian Foote wrote:
In case anyone's interested, here's a picture I took a while back of my '90
Toyota standard cab/standard bed pickup with the bed taken off:
http://www30.brinkster.com/icrushyo/Twain13.gif
The bed mounts on two of the holes at the back of the rails and at the front
on the little pillars coming up from the rails. It looks like there's a
fair amount of room between the rails where the gas tank and muffler are
now. I don't have measurements handy but I could probably be conviced to go
take some if anyone's interested. I haven't looked under the bed of the
longbed version of this truck but from the outside it looks like the only
differences are behind the wheels.
The Toyota Tacoma (95 and up, I believe) is a redesign and may or may not
have the same configuration.
I've just bought a 99 Toyota Tacoma to do a conversion and it looks very
similar to this. The rails are fairly wide apart, with the shocks split -
the driver's side in front of the axle and the passenger's side
behind. I'm designing the battery placement now. I'm considering putting
optimas on their side in a tray under the cab between the rails, with
additional batteries under the bed between the rails. If I go with YT
D750s and a 312v or 336v pack with AC, I can eliminate any batteries behind
the rear axle, which appeals because of the balance and stability issues
that folks have mentioned.
If I go with something bigger (either DC with batteries paired, or just
more AH with AC), I'll have some behind the axle, so I'm trying to decide
on range vs. stability. FWIW,
Chris
Many areas have self-service junkyards such as Pick-n-pull where you can
just wander around all day looking at various cars/trucks, pulling parts
off them, measuring, etc.
http://www.picknpull.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 8:49 AM
Subject: Waah!!!
SNIP
| Which means it should have an effective capacity of 13 amp/hours. Now
the
| car has two sets of these in series, so it should be able to put out
| 26amp/hours. And I'm getting only 12.
Errr! Not so. In series gives same Ah (but double Wh).
And, BTW amp/hour is a rate of acceleration of charge, I think you mean Ah
(Amp-Hours).
Neil
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--- Begin Message ---
You'd have to spend $32,000 converting it to get the full $4,000 credit
(10%)
Adam mentioned that you'd have a hard time doing this, sp[ecifically
proving that it was never used as a nonelectric.
I disagree, if you buy the car new and NEVER register it as anything
other than electric. Then it was clearly never used as a nonelectric.
The key here is the word "used", it doesn't say it has to initially be
built as an electric.
On Sat, 2003-02-22 at 10:15, Paul G wrote:
> Ben Graves wrote:
> >Has anyone out there successfully claimed the federal tax credit for an ice
> >to ev conversion. I have read IRS Publication 535 and Form 8834, but
> >neither seem to cover the tax credit for a conversion which is not being
> >used for business. From what I have read, I can claim a credit of 10% of
> >the cost of the ev (does this include the purchase price of the running ICE
> >donor?) to a maximum credit of $4,000. Any information would be
> >appreciated.
>
> Its not for a conversion, its for a new EV.
>
> IRS Pub 535, page 50,
> "A vehicle is a qualified electric vehicle if it meets all the
> following requirements.
> 1) It is a motor vehicle (defined earlier) powered primarily by an
> electric motor drawing current from rechargeable batteries, fuel
> cells, or other portable sources of electrical current.
> 2) You were the first person to use it.
> 3) You acquired it for your own use and not for resale.
> 4) It has never been used as a nonelectric vehicle.
> 5) It is not nonqualifying property, defined earlier."
>
> Of particular note are numbers 2 and 4. I was wondering - if a new
> vehicle was purchased, not registered at the time of purchase but
> towed home, then converted, then registered, would the $4000 electric
> vehicle credit apply? See, if it did apply I could see using a brand
> new Kia Reo as a $4000 glider (approx. $8000 new cost minus the
> credit).
>
> Neon
>
--
EVDL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> SNIP
> | Which means it should have an effective capacity of 13 amp/hours. Now
> the
> | car has two sets of these in series, so it should be able to put out
> | 26amp/hours. And I'm getting only 12.
>
> Errr! Not so. In series gives same Ah (but double Wh).
>
> And, BTW amp/hour is a rate of acceleration of charge, I think you mean Ah
> (Amp-Hours).
I believe he meant to say 'two sets of these in parallel'
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--- Begin Message ---
Ok fellow conspirators, I did the math. This is what I came up with:
To own a $20,000 two-seater sports car (Miata, whatever, or whatever
other four seater wannabe luxury sedan), for four years, you will have
to pay this every month:
-$20,000 over 48 months without financing is $417 per month
-80 miles per day @ 24 mpg is 3.3 gallons per day, times 30 days in a
month is about 100 gallons, times $1.60 a gallon, is $160 a month in gas
-An oil change a month - $25
-Guestimated $3500 per four years in preventative maintenance (all
those tune-ups, fluid flushes, etc.) - $72 per month
This brings on an I.C.E cost of $673 per month.
Unaccountable pros/cons for I.C.E.:
Pros - Gas is everywhere
Cons - Polluting, supplies foreign nations with capital, expensive
To own a $27,500 electric del Sol (or whatever four seater import
wonder you want), for four years, you will have to pay this every month:
-$27,500 over 48 months without financing is $573 per month
-80 miles per day using 15kwh to do it (not scientific number, but you
know where I'm getting at), times 30 days is 450kwh per month, at 7
cents per kwh, you will pay about $32 to fill up your tank for a month
-I'll go as far as to say that sometime in that 4 years you will need
to replace your pack, costing $6,000 (hopefully prices will have
dropped a tad, from their current estimated $7,800) - $125 per month
displaced cost
This brings an electric cost of $730 per month. Although a little
more, lets take into account some government money. I think you get
10% of the purchase price back, so lets subtract $2750 from our initial
cost, making the vehicle only $24,750 ($515 in raw car cost), or a
grand total of $673 (the same as the ICE!). Here in Georgia I'll get
another $2500 back. That makes the car only cost $22,250 ($464 in raw
car cost), or a grand total of $620 per month ($53 less than the ICE!).
Unaccountable pros/cons for electric:
Pros - HOV lanes with only one person, zero direct emissions, EV grins
on a daily basis, the joy of a nice car
Cons - Lack of charging infrastructure, shorter range (hopefully not by
much, but how much do I need)
Obviously the electric is cheaper to me, or equal to everyone else.
But what would I have in my electric to make a two-seater worth that
much? Well this is what I think a Distortion Networks conversion would
have to have:
-The AC drive system I've spoken about, 100kw, with regen, and reverse,
and diagnostics, and all those nice things
-A completely replaced interior (new plastics, new seats, Wet Okole
neoprene seat covers for that cool feeling, a nice stereo (I'm thinking
Eclipse and JL Audio)
-New paint job
-Lithium-Ion pack, say around 22kw capacity
-A nice fat PFC charger - think you can make me one for Lithiums?
Maybe i'll have to settle for less
-All the comforts of an ICE
-My trunk (wow, the quarter-ton lithium pack could afford me such a
thing)
-An automatic or CVT transmission (I like the CVT better, cuz we can
program it to stay within certain RPM ranges to be most efficient)
I'm sure I could come up with more
I could probably get enough funding to build ten of these units (around
the above price, maybe, just maybe). My question to you: Do you think
there are enough people to buy ten of these units?
-Sam Harper
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--- Begin Message ---
LOL. Women. My neighbor wants an NEV to drive the babies 1/2 mile to
preschool. His wife feels the Four runner is safer. Very little traffic.
What is she thinking? Lawrence Rhodes......Why can't you just hook up two
wires from the bad boy to the prius pack. No finish charge. Just enough to
keep the ICE off. Lawrence Rhodes......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 5:19 PM
Subject: Re: You Don't Have to Plug It In!
> Lee Hart wrote:
> >> We have a Prius... The grocery store, bank, my son's school, and
> >> where I work are all less than a mile away, and the speed limits
> >> to get there are 30 mph max. The farthest that the car normally
> >> gets driven is to my wife's job, which is about 5 miles away. The >>
highest speed limit on that route is 40 mph.
>
> Bob Rice wrote:
> > Lee, isnt that just right for yur Leopard?
>
> Yes, my LeCar EV does it all just fine. But, my wife won't drive it. For
> some reason, she prefers a 2001 Prius to a 1980 Renault. I can't figure
> out why :-)
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
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--- Begin Message ---
I've seen this also , one bad bat and you think the hole park is shot. take
it out and things run MUCH better, and I have asked myself the same
question , why? Even if the voltage on the "stinker" drops to 0 v under
load you would think it still should run about the same as taking the bat
out all together. This is not the case as when you get rid of the one bad
bat and then the car runs so well. If you had Lee's Batteries balancer it
might hold up that one "stinker" or even keep it from happening in the first
place. The other problem is that when your charging the voltage goes up
fast on the bad bat and so the charger thinks the rest of the bats are more
charged then they are. one string is getting more that the other. If you
could turn down the charger then you could just pull 2 of the worst bats
,one form each string. or if you can't do that maybe replace the 2 with one
YT at an equal distance in the string or at the beginning. just some ideas
Steve Clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 4:49 PM
Subject: Waah!!!
> Well, I've been driving the Prizm around lightly this winter, and ever
since
> it got cold, I've only been able to get 12amps tops out of the pack before
> the car was out. (52ah pack)
>
> Thought it was because of the cold, so I did a quick test in the shed.
Took
> a Hawker battery, charged it up, discharged it under C conditions (26ah).
> Lasted for 30 mins before dropping below 11 volts.
>
> Which means it should have an effective capacity of 13 amp/hours. Now the
> car has two sets of these in series, so it should be able to put out
> 26amp/hours. And I'm getting only 12.
>
> Sounds like one of the batteries opened up again in the pack. Drat. When I
> dropped the pack in the fall I found one battery that read 12.8 but as
soon
> as any load was placed on it it dropped to zero volts.
>
> Why does this happen if I might ask?
>
> Chris
>
> (yes, yes, I know: I have to replace the whole pack. Waah...)
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Boring thats when there's nothing to read ! I love to hear about projects
and first rides ect. . This is the type of stuff that when somebody who is
trying to make up there mind to do a conversion reads it they stop the fence
sitting and go to work. I did a lot of the same things you did on my first
ride in my first Ev , This was before i knew about the list or for that
matter knew anything about batteries. the unbroken in bats fell dead after 5
miles and 5 miles from home and i inched my way back . Didn't know I had
to brake them in . Well you'r out there now waving the EV flag and if your
world is anything like mine lots of people will be interested in what your
doing and how it works.Your " things I've learned so far" was also very good
. I have a friend who has put together a EV web site and if its OK with you
i'd like to copy "things I've learned so far" to it as there is a lot of
good info for newbee's . It sounds like Ed Ang is doing what all of us EV
drivers should be doing , helping others get with the program . at a boy Ed
.. we'll know we're making progress when the big car comps start making cars
that can't be converted to electric. ( j )....
Steve Clunn
www.grassrootsev.con
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 1:21 AM
Subject: Thanks for everything!!! (too long, but hopefully not too boring)
Hi everyone! Just wanted to give an update on the eX-1/9 (Targa-topped
former-Fiat)... Thanks to a lot of help, patient explanations of how things
work, and some BattPro modules from Ed Ang (I'm very lucky to have him
nearby), I've finally gotten it on the road. It's quite fun and will
hopefully provide me with a good learning experience as well. Unfortunately,
it's quite ugly at the moment, with two or three minor surface rust spots,
dull paint, and one rust-through just below the windshield. Fortunately,
though, I'm from Ohio and know a bit about dealing with car-cancer. The
budget should also be able to bear the cost of a decent new paint job in the
near future :^D ).
The car was originally an e-bay purchase and I actually ended up paying
more for the YT batteries than the car itself (electronics included). The
range so far is nothing to write home about (I can't quite make a round-trip
across the bay to work and back), and the acceleration in third gear is not
what I'd call incredible, but I've definitely been bitten by the bug.
I've also been very lucky in that my employer, Tellme Networks, is filled
with forward-thinking individuals (3 other EV fans/owners and a lot of
interest from many others), and so my chances of getting a charging station
installed are quite good. My co-workers tend to tease me a bit about my
range (My Optimas ran out of "zap" on the way home the one time I tried
prematurely to drive it to work), but they are also quite enthusiastic and
encouraging. Some are even aiding my efforts to set up a charging station in
our parking lot.
Actually, the only real problems I've had so far have been from breaking
parts on the base car itself (Fiats sometimes deserve their reputation...),
and the driver trying to push things a bit too far a little too early in the
learning curve. The car still needs a severe cleaning, there are a few
remaining connections to make for some of the last few gauges, and it needs
quite a bit of body work, but when it's done, it's going to be a great
little car. No, I take that back... it will probably just keep evolving and
getting better over the years - I intend to keep it on the road as long as
possible, and continue to improve it as time, budget, and technology allow.
Things I've learned so far:
1.) Don't try to find your car's limits by testing them. Gradually increase
the distance of your LOCAL trips to find how far you can go, and take note
of your battery pack's voltage drop under load at various states of
discharge. (I have no e-meter yet, so measuring energy used between charges
is still a bit beyond me).
2.) Just because the car CAN go fast doesn't mean it SHOULD. I drove about
20 miles to work at 70mph most of the way, and pushed it up to 80mph twice
to see what it could do. THIS WAS WRONG. I may have to get used to the idea
of getting passed by gas-burners, but I need to remember that I'm not in a
race. I'm in an electric vehicle - therefore I win regardless of who gets
there first.
3.) LRR tires rule - but only if they are well-enough inflated to truly be
Low Rolling Resistance. This was likely another range killer when my
batteries ran out. I was just in too much of a hurry to get it on the road.
4.) Extra-bright Halogen bulbs suck... amps. I retrofitted my car without
thinking of economizing on current draw. Mistake.
5.) Giving co-workers aggressive, tire-squealing test drives around the
parking lot is fun and can show off what the car can do, but it wastes a lot
of charge, a little bit of tire life, and is not really demonstrating the
real reason I have my car. It isn't a racer (any more, at least), and was
purchased to be a fairly efficient and ecologically-minded daily driver.
6.) Wind resistance is a killer. When I drove to work, I had the Targa top
off and the windows down. The X-1/9 is not excessively aerodynamic (but not
that bad, I suppose), but the Targa arrangement just makes it worse.
7.) Have plenty of charging options available at all times. and know where
you can cop a charge if you need one. the more adaptors you have, the
better. And a charger with settable current draw (circuit-breaker-friendly)
and the ability to take either 110V or 220V would be nice too. (Right now,
I'm not sure my Zivan can do the latter - I think 220 is about it for me!)
8.) If you can't increase your battery capacity or find another way to
increase your range per charge, at-work charging sure is a nice thing to
have.
I made every one of these mistakes on my first commute-length trip - "Just
to see what the car was capable of." - stupid me. I ended up pulled to the
side of the road beside Lockheed-Martin at eleven at night. I was frisked by
a few armed security goons when I was walking by their gate while searching
for a possible place nearby to get a recharge. I guess they though I was a
"terrorist" - they even demanded to see my drivers' license (guess they know
that terrorists don't have drivers' licenses - only piloting licenses!).
The folks at nearby Juniper Networks were helpful and even had 2 charging
stations... but they appeared to only have 110V power, and I didn't have an
adaptor to fit the socket anyway. So I had to fork over $100 or so to U-haul
for towing equipment to haul myself back home in shame.
Lessons learned. Tuition paid in full (I hope).
Things I refuse to learn:
1.)"Plain is better.": I need a Stereo, dammit! Sure it wastes energy, but
hey - I finally have a vehicle that I can HEAR the stereo in (my ICE 914
tends to be a bit rumbly and then there's also the wind noise)! There are
certain concessions here that I refuse to make. However, a decent-sized
accessory battery with a photovoltaic charger is on the drawing board too,
so a reasonable stereo could be installed with minimal impact on range.
2.) "The least amount of wind resistance possible will yield the best
possible range.": I agree with everyone on the list that good aerodynamics
are key to making a vehicle go farther. However, I refuse to leave the top
on the car. I will make the concession of removing the rear window and
replacing it with an easily removable or an hinged one - or possibly even
creating a roadster by chopping the rollbar, but California has about the
longest unbroken convertible season I know of outside of Arizona/New Mexico
and I intend to enjoy it! Besides, removing that pesky source of backdraft
will mean that I will no longer get out of the car looking like a male Liza
Minelli! There are also plenty of other wind resistance optimizations other
than putting the top back on. I'll try some of the alternatives first.
Next thing I hope to learn:
How to integrate a computer monitoring system into the car for purposes of
displaying, recording, and comparing real-time & historical stats, such as
voltage on each battery, energy consumption for trip and total consumed
between each charge, amps from each battery 10-pack pre-controller & post
controller. Historical records should be available for performance
comparisons, and thermal data measurement capabilities would also be nice,
as would charging stats (total watts input to batteries per charge, charging
time, and variances between batteries etc.) It would also be a really nice
thing to have a system that could make an estimate of % charge remaining and
approximate range left. Actual computer-controlled charging is probably not
in the near-term future, but wouldn't it be nice? In short, I want to be
able to set up a compact computer with LCD screen that would satisfy any
statistic-crazed college math major. I already have the computer hardware
sourced - the box itself is just 6"x6"x1.75" and pretty efficient because
there's no power supply - just 5Vdc input plus a little 12V for a hard disk
& CD!!! (hmm... it has audio onboard... maybe I can dual-purpose the CDROM
for stereo use! - and oh, for Ricochet service...) But anyway, I still need
to learn a lot more about available software and the data-acquisition setup.
Anyway, I mainly just wanted to share my EV experience so far, and to thank
everyone on the list for publishing their helpful advice and information.
Especially, though, I wanted to publicly thank Ed Ang for all of the help
and encouragement he has provided (as well as the BattPro modules he
practically gave me!). Without you all, I would still be stuck in the ICE
age! ...and I wouldn't get that warm, fuzzy (and smug) feeling that I now
have every time I pass the gas station, see the $2+ per gallon
"Transportation Tax / Smog Donation / Rich Oil-Producer Aid Fund
Contribution" - and pass right by.
Thanks Again!
-Doug Martin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim Coate wrote:
>
> Interesting, but... like the other AC drives around, it really needs to
> be run at high voltages (336+ V) to be able to reach the 100 KW
> potential given the current limits, which in turn retricts battery
> choice and so on. If it could make 100 KW at 192 - 240 V range I'd be
> more excited.
>
> Assuming a high voltage system so have 100 KW going in, would need 100%
> efficiency to make the claimed 135 HP. The given 0.975 x 0.92 = 89.7%
> system efficiency would mean a peak of 120 HP.
>
> And I know water cooling helps a lot but a 3" long motor and a 10 pound
> controller seem really small for those power levels.
>
> Guess I'm a skeptic this morning.
>
Yea my BS detector clipped on this also.
nice numbers but the motor cooling is a bit questionable. The controller
weight is really light also, but I know I could cool it with water,
That's easy.
I will bet that the limit if a AC system will always be cooling the
Rotor.
10 lbs is close to the weight of the caps and modules and heatsink. What
about the controller PCB, and power supplies???
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>
>
> Then you only have one expensive central controller. It needs enough
> outputs to select any one of the relays, and then then does all its
> voltage measurements (and charge or discharge currents) thru the single
> pair of high-current wires.
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
Giving you a spider Webed battery pack. Also not a option in my book.
Minimum brains, Dasiy chained data buss. RS-232 level AScci Data flow,
Poled from master.
Data buss could also be a cheap light fiber, as in Otmar's proposed
system.
The price becomes what ever it takes to make a reliable system.
Don't forget the KISS principle.
In a lot of cases a data buss is not needed. Just a properley programed
Regulator, and a adjustable charger.
Data, Data, Data everywhere, More than I can parse! Some where out there
is a Byte that can save my Arse!!
The BMS's mantra.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dan,
I know Kirk but I thought he had told me that the molds were gone. I'll ask him next
time I talk with him. He does have bunch of parts. The 6.7" motors on the Tradin' Post
came from him.
Steve
In a message dated 2/20/2003 8:48:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
>
>
> Steve,
>
> Doesn't Kirk Hoeffler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> still have the Tropica
> molds? I think he still has a lot of the other parts
> http://www.goldcoastinteriors.com/CarParts .
>
> Dan
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 10:54 AM
> Subject: RE: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff
>
>
> I was wondering about something like this last week when I finished reading
> The Lost Cord. Who owns the rights to the Tropica design? I know where most
> (all?) of the drawings are but I don't know about the rights. Sadly, the
> molds are gone.
> Nobody wanted to store them.
>
> Steve
>
>
>
> In a message dated 2/20/2003 1:11:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Chris
> Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> >Bob Rice wrote:
> >
> >> Some of this inginuity were applied to EV
> >> technology, as well as energy saving stuff too. So we
> >> wouldn't need so much oil. Just the talent on this List,
> >> ganged up anf funded, could get EV's out there in big no.s
> >
> >Hi Bob,
> >
> >I couldn't agree more. All the talent we need is right here on this
> >list right now. Unfortunately, we all need our day jobs to support us.
> >
> >Is there anyone on the list who knows someone with more net worth than
> >they will ever need, and a big heart? It's a serious question. Twenty
> >to thirty employees, 15000 to 20000 sq. ft., maybe fifteen million
> >dollars (a big chunk of that for marketing). Shoot for 200 vehicles the
> >first year, ramping up to 1000/year in five years. DO NOT TRY TO BE THE
> >NEXT GM OR FORD. Start small. Get a fully-functional EV available to
> >the public. Market it like the new thing it truly is. They will buy.
> >Then you grow.
> >
> >I have zero doubt that a company made from the talent of this list could
> >open the eyes of the public to a whole new way to drive. The only
> >unknown in my mind is the certification process. How long, how much?
> >For that matter, the quickest way to put production EVs on the road is
> >simply to fund the certification and production tooling of Rick
> >Woodbury's Tango. Rick could probably have cars on the market within
> >months of certification.
> >
> >This may read like the hopeful musings of an enviro-socio-idealist. Not
> >true. This is from an engineering manager with a pretty firm grasp of
> >what can and cannot be done. We are so near to making this happen, yet
> >so far. We could literally change the face of personal
> transportation.
> >How do we get there?
> >
> >Chris
> >
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I got the temperature probe working on the evercel tester tonight.
The evercel warms up during discharge and during overcharge and cools off
during charge. The temperature swing was from 75F to 90F in a 39F ambient.
A plot of the temperature (and the state of charge of the battery) plotted
over time is posted at
http://www.manzanitamicro.com/evercel%20thermal%20behavior.gif
I wonder how this test would be different if it was Summer in the NorthWest?
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
sign off
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(The great Segway debate)-Long
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV informational
purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.katu.com/news/story.asp?ID=54785
February 18, 2003
Legislators debate how to regulate Segway scooters
EUGENE - Make way for Segway. The much-hyped self-balancing electric
scooter, still a relative rarity on the West Coast, is now headed
Oregon's way. The manufacturer will start delivering the $5,000
devices next month to those who take the company's training class.
And Oregon is joining the national debate about how to regulate the
gyroscope-balanced vehicle, brainchild of New Hampshire inventor Dean
Kamen.
A bill introduced Monday in the Oregon Senate seeks to define the
Segway in the state transportation code and permit it on sidewalks,
bike paths and the sides of streets posted 25 mph or less. Thanks to
aggressive lobbying by Segway, 33 states have passed similar laws.
Segway says its two-wheeled marvel, at 83 pounds and two feet wide,
can cruise comfortably along bike paths or stroll casually down city
sidewalks. It's safer among pedestrians than in the street with cars,
trucks and buses, said Matt Dailida, director of government affairs
for Segway LLC of Manchester, N.H.
"These were designed from Day One to be able to operate in a
pedestrian environment," Dailida said. "There are no sharp corners,
no
substantial material is protruding from it. Just the technology alone
really lends itself to the sidewalk."
But the thought of an electric vehicle that can go as fast as 12.5
mph
on the sidewalk is a tad troubling for Diane Bishop, bicycle and
alternative modes coordinator for the city of Eugene.
"I'm very concerned about adding one more fast-moving object on the
sidewalk," Bishop said. "We get so many comments from pedestrians
that
say we shouldn't allow bikes on sidewalks."
Still, Segway fans say the machines easily keep pace with
window-shopping pedestrians and pose no threat.
"You can ride the same speed as anyone walks, even a half-mile an
hour," said Portland developer Homer Williams, who has two Segways
and
no car. "They're very easy to use on the sidewalks. The problem is
everyone wants to stop you and ride it."
Many states allow cities to further restrict where the devices may
travel. So far, San Francisco is the largest city to ban the Segway
from sidewalks.
A Portland-based pedestrian advocacy group is opposing the sidewalk
provision in the bill from Sen. Kate Brown, D-Portland.
"We think the technology is pretty sexy," said Dan Polette, who is on
the board of the Willamette Pedestrian Coalition. "We don't think
necessarily the sidewalk is where they should be. ... Particularly
the more vulnerable segment of those users elderly folks and children
would certainly be of concern."
The volunteer-run group will ask lawmakers to let cities choose to
permit the Segway on sidewalks only outside core pedestrian areas and
at speeds not to exceed 5 mph, Polette said.
Copyright 2003 by The Associated Press.
===
http://www.registerguard.com/news/2003/02/18/d1.cr.segway.0218.html
February 18, 2003
Segway's debut rolls near amid concerns over safety
By Scott Maben The Register-Guard
Is there room, amid the walkers and runners and bicyclists and
skaters, for the Segway?
It's not a pressing question in Lane County, where the self-balancing
electric scooters have yet to appear. They've barely hit the West
Coast a year and a half after Dean Kamen unveiled his much-hyped
invention.
That may change soon. The manufacturer will start delivering the
$5,000 devices next month to those who take the company's training
class.
A few early birds in Portland and Seattle are using them, and by
spring the occasional Segway Human Transporter could be spotted on a
bike path near the Willamette River, scooting through downtown Eugene
or zipping out to a suburban mall.
But as the gyroscope-balanced vehicle slowly becomes more common
nationwide, states and cities are debating where exactly it belongs.
A bill introduced Monday in the Oregon Senate seeks to define the
Segway in the state transportation code and permit it on sidewalks,
bike paths and the sides of streets posted 25 mph or less. Thanks to
aggressive lobbying by Segway, 33 states have passed similar laws.
Segway says its two-wheeled marvel, at 83 pounds and 2 feet wide, can
cruise comfortably along bike paths or stroll casually down city
sidewalks. It's safer among pedestrians than in the street with cars,
trucks and buses, said Matt Dailida, director of government affairs
for Segway LLC of Manchester, N.H.
"These were designed from Day One to be able to operate in a
pedestrian environment," Dailida said. "There are no sharp corners,
no
substantial material is protruding from it. Just the technology alone
really lends itself to the sidewalk."
The thought of an electric vehicle that can go as fast as 12.5 mph on
the sidewalk is a tad troubling for Diane Bishop, the city of
Eugene's
bicycle and alternative modes coordinator.
"I'm very concerned about adding one more fast-moving object on the
sidewalk," Bishop said. "We get so many comments from pedestrians
that
say we shouldn't allow bikes on sidewalks."
But Segway fans say the machines easily keep pace with
window-shopping
pedestrians and pose no threat.
"You can ride the same speed as anyone walks, even a half-mile an
hour," said Portland developer Homer Williams, who has two Segways
and
no car. "They're very easy to use on the sidewalks. The problem is
everyone wants to stop you and ride it."
Like many cities, Eugene prohibits motorized vehicles on sidewalks.
That includes motor-assisted bicycles and scooters, and police say it
probably would apply to the Segway, too.
But as with the bill in front of Oregon's Senate, many states allow
cities to further restrict where the devices may travel. So far, San
Francisco is the largest city to ban the Segway from sidewalks.
"I guess I'm not the only one who feels like places that are sort of
sacred for walking and bicycling should remain so," said Jan
VanderTuin, a bicycle builder and executive director of the Center
for
Appropriate Transport in Eugene. "But, hey, the world is changing."
Hoping it doesn't change too quickly, a Portland-based pedestrian
advocacy group opposes the sidewalk provision in the bill from Sen.
Kate Brown, D-Portland.
"We think the technology is pretty sexy," said Dan Polette, on the
board of the Willamette Pedestrian Coalition. "We don't think
necessarily the sidewalk is where they should be. ... Particularly
the more vulnerable segment of those users - elderly folks and
children - would certainly be of concern."
The volunteer-run group will ask lawmakers to let cities choose to
permit the Segway on sidewalks only outside core pedestrian areas and
at speeds not to exceed 5 mph, Polette said.
Segway promotes its product as the key to cleaner, quieter,
less-congested cities. One of the Northwest's first Segway owners
believes it could be true.
Phillip Torrone, product development director for a Seattle company,
has logged 300 miles on his Segway commuting to and from work - an
eight-mile round trip - for the past 11 weeks. He cut his daily
commute nearly in half, sold one of his two cars and saves $600 a
month in auto expenses.
"It's really performed flawlessly," Torrone said. "It's hard to
explain unless you've been on one. It's kind of like a magic carpet."
His route takes him on streets, alleys and sidewalks, including steep
grades, rain or shine. Lots of folks have gawked, but no one has
complained, Torrone said.
"They're definitely meant to be around people," he said.
But what about faster-moving traffic? Another concern is that a
bicyclist caught behind the Segway in a bike lane may have to veer
into the street to pass.
"I can see a bottleneck forming if they do get on the bike lanes off
to the side of the road," said Dave Kendall, head mechanic at the
Bike
Barn in Eugene. "I could see some irate cyclists."
Darron Bubach, the store's assistant manager, said all motorized
vehicles belong on the street. "I don't think they'll bother me out
on
the road," he said, "as long as there's not gangs of them out there."
Bishop, the city's bike coordinator, doubts that will be a problem.
"My hope is it won't be a big issue because they're so expensive,"
she
said.
SEGWAY BASICS
� Price: $4,950
� Sales: The company doesn't disclose, but advance sales
made it one of the 200 best-selling items on Amazon.com
� Technology: Powered by nickel metal hydride batteries, balanced by
three gyroscopes and operated by 10 microprocessors, the Segway
requires only 48 watt-hours of energy per mile, making it 700 times
more efficient than an automobile
� Top speed: 12.5 mph
� Mileage: 11 to 17 miles per electrical charge
� Shape and size: Often compared to an old-fashioned reel
lawn mower, it takes up about as much space as a standing person
and
weighs 83 pounds
� Payload: Can carry a 250-pound human plus 75 pounds of
gear
� On the Web: www.segway.com
===
http://www.djc.com/news/ht/11142103.html
February 19, 2003
States debate rules for Segway scooters
EUGENE, Ore. (AP) -- Make way for Segway.
The much-hyped self-balancing electric scooter, still a relative
rarity on the West Coast, is headed our way: the manufacturer will
start delivering the $5,000 devices next month to those who take the
company's training class.
And state legislators are joining the national debate about how to
regulate the gyroscope-balanced vehicle, brainchild of New Hampshire
inventor Dean Kamen.
A bill introduced Monday in the Oregon Senate seeks to define the
Segway in the state transportation code and permit it on sidewalks,
bike paths and the sides of streets posted 25 mph or less. Thanks to
aggressive lobbying by Segway, 33 states have passed similar laws.
Segway says its two-wheeled marvel, at 83 pounds and two feet wide,
can cruise comfortably along bike paths or stroll casually down city
sidewalks. It's safer among pedestrians than in the street with cars,
trucks and buses, said Matt Dailida, director of government affairs
for Segway LLC of Manchester, N.H.
But the thought of an electric vehicle that can go as fast as 12.5
mph
on the sidewalk is a tad troubling for Diane Bishop, bicycle and
alternative modes coordinator for the city of Eugene.
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
