EV Digest 2610
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Energy policy pics
by "johnflor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: BMS cost (was Re: LIN bus link)
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Waah!!!
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: You Don't Have to Plug It In!
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: BC-20 at 144
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: old golfcart transaxle lubricant.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: question about turning a RAV4 EV into a grid-chargeable hybrid
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Laher cart
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: [RAV4-EV] question about turning a RAV4 EV into a
grid-chargeable hybrid
by William Korthof <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: BMS cost (was Re: LIN bus link)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: New Product - AC Drive System
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: BMS cost (was Re: LIN bus link)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: [RAV4-EV] question about turning a RAV4 EV into a grid-chargeable hybrid
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
14) Re: [RAV4-EV] question about turning a RAV4 EV into a grid-chargeable hybrid
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Inspired Corporation's Product - Part 2 (long, but please read!)
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: question about turning a RAV4 EV into a grid-chargeable hybrid
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: [RAV4-EV] question about turning a RAV4 EV into a
grid-chargeable hybrid
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: question about turning a RAV4 EV into a grid-chargeable hybrid
by "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: [RAV4-EV] question about turning a RAV4 EV into a grid-chargeable hybrid
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
20) Re: pick-up truck dimensions?
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Portland Area Dynamometer...
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "murdoch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 9:37 PM
Subject: Re: Energy policy pics
> I also would like a copy, if possible. I would post them and then
> could provide the links to folks so you wouldn't have to pass them
> around individually.
>
>
> On Sun, 23 Feb 2003 14:14:41 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >Listers,
> > I have some great military pics that I think nearly everyone on the
> >list will agree with and like wholeheartedly. I don't have a web site to
> >post them on but send me a blank e-mail and I'll paste the pics on them
for
> >you. If anyone likes them enough they can feel free to post them on any
web
> >site they might have. If you want to go that route I'll try to e-mail a
.bmp
> >image but they are kind of big in that form and I'm somewhat limited on
how
> >big the files are that I can send.
> >
> >John David
> >
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> > Data buss could also be a cheap light fiber, as in Otmar's proposed
> > system.
>
> You need to price out a "cheap" light fiber. Fiber optic systems are
> generally far more expensive than wire and connectors.
>
> .Otmar says they are getting REALLY cheap like $2 a end. I have to see to
> believe, but I hear and listen.
No need to speculate, here are the details from Digikey.
Phototransistor, FB121-ND $3.65 ea $2.37/100 IF-D92
Emitter: FB118-ND $3.48 ea $2.25/100 IF-E91A
I believe the fiber costs about $0.40/ foot in 100 ft rolls. Not from DK.
They are certainly much more expensive than wire and connectors.
I believe this is too expensive to put on one module on every
battery, though it would be possible.
I have a personal goal in this design having to do with safety.
First a little background for those who may not know this, and so you
all understand how I'm using these terms.
In EV's we have two wiring systems:
1) High voltage wiring, which I consider any wire that is referenced
to the isolated high voltage system, even if it is carrying a low
voltage signal.
2) Low voltage wiring, which is any wire that references to the vehicle ground.
In production EVs you will see that all the high voltage wiring has a
orange cover. This is because it presents a risk of shock. If there
is a isolation fault anywhere in the high voltage system then
touching any of the orange wires could produce a shock.
For instance, if we were using the production standard then the wires
to the E-Meter would all have to be in a orange sleeve.
My goal in designing this EvBus is to minimize overlap of the two
systems. I would like to eliminate all high voltage wiring that is
not required for carrying power. In the case of the battery
monitors/regulators I would like all the high voltage wiring to
remain inside the battery boxes and the low voltage wiring to stay
outside the battery boxes. I chose fiber to carry the information
from the high voltage area inside the battery box to the low voltage
area outside the box because it is inherently isolated. If this goal
can be accomplished without excessive cost then I believe it's worth
doing.
To that end I've been working on the isolated bus for the BMS. One of
the questions for me is how many batteries to monitor per isolated
module. Too few and the system price goes up, too many and the
flexibility goes down.
For instance, most conversions have two or three battery boxes. If a
box has four batteries and the BMS module has eight inputs then it is
more complicated than it needs to be. But if the module has four
inputs, and you have five batteries in a box then you end up needing
two units. Also, in my design you lose resolution as you put more
batteries on a module.
My prototypes monitor 8 batteries per isolated section.
This means that there is one fiber in, one out and 9 high voltage
wire connections to the batteries per module. (plus temperature
sensors)
The modules get power from the batteries that they monitor. My target
operating current draw is no more than 2mA. A lower draw sleep mode
would also be possible.
I think my future modules may only monitor 5 batteries per unit.
After balancing the cost and resolution I think it's a better balance.
Obviously there are many good ways to handle the BMS system, I just
thought I'd explain why I've chosen to pursue this one.
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ New Zilla controllers, now available.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 05:49 PM 2/22/03, you wrote:
Well, I've been driving the Prizm around lightly this winter, and ever since
it got cold, I've only been able to get 12amps tops out of the pack before
the car was out. (52ah pack)
Thought it was because of the cold, so I did a quick test in the shed. Took
a Hawker battery, charged it up, discharged it under C conditions (26ah).
Lasted for 30 mins before dropping below 11 volts.
In a way, it may be caused by the cold indirectly. Cold batteries
require a significantly higher voltage to fully charge. If you haven't set
your charger voltage a tad higher, (or if it is not temperature
compensated) then you are not charging your batteries correctly.
Check the A-hr capacity of other batteries, or of the whole pack
using a dummy load like a section of baseboard electric heat. If capacity
of the whole pack is low, you need "force" in the "missing" A-hrs by doing
a one or more conditioning charges.
Here is the conditioning charge recipe:
1) Charge the batteries up to 15 volts and wait until the current drops to
1 amp or less.
2) Put a constant current 4 amp charge for an hour.
3) Discharge the batteries to 10.5 - 11.0 volts and repeat 1 or perhaps 2
more times until the capacity returns.
This will kill them or cure them. This is because one of two
things has happened. Either the batteries are simply worn out, or the
negative plate has become sulfated because you are not doing the proper
finishing charge. If they are simply worn out, the conditioning charge will
not help and may actually finish off the battery completely. If, on the
other hand, they are sulfated, the conditioning charger will remove a good
portion of the sulfation and the capacity will increase significantly.
The conditioning charge is much more aggressive than the typical
finishing charge of 2 amps for an hour. You would only do a conditioning
charge like this once or perhaps twice in the lifetime of a battery because
of the water it uses. It uses up some water but it removes sulfation.
If you think about it, the only way to get the missing A-hrs out
is to put the missing A-hrs back in. You are missing 30 A-hrs. If each of
the two or three conditioning charges helps, do a few 2 amp finish charges
until the capacity levels out. You have 30 A-hrs to make up, so it won't
happen all at once.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seems to me you could put in a relay to reset just the system and not things
like the radio and other saved data whatever that might be. Seems like the
Prius as a pure electric would go a good 25 miles if you took out the engine
and gastank and put batteries there. Lawrence Rhodes........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: You Don't Have to Plug It In!
> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> > Why can't you just hook up two wires from the bad boy to the Prius
> > pack. No finish charge. Just enough to keep the ICE off.
>
> So far, it looks like the Prius controls its battery state of charge
> based on amphours in/out. If I insert extra amphours with an external
> charger, the system flags it as an error (pack voltage too high for its
> assumed state of charge). So I have to find some way to trick it.
>
> Toyota has an external charger. Their shop proceedure is to charge the
> HV battery, then disconnect the 12v battery to reset all the error
> codes. Unfortunately, this throws away a lot of useful data just to
> clear a few bytes somewhere.
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The manual is at
http://www.100megsfree.com/davidbr13/evtechpapers/bc-20.pdf
The programming resistor is described on page 10 of the pdf (marked page 7
on the sheet).
The LB-20 wiring diagram is Figure 7-1 on page 26 of the pdf (marked page 23
on the sheet).
This should be what you need to get it working.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 8:03 AM
Subject: BC-20 at 144
> Howdy:
>
> I need help again. I have acquired a K&W BC-20 and I need to learn just
how
> and what I need to do in order to get it to charge my 144v pack of
Trojans?
> ( T-125s )
> I have a boost transformer that I am currently using with a basic 'Bad
Boy';
> this seems to work just fine as the line voltage runs out at the point the
> pack is full, around 186v.
> This would continue to serve except we are planning to invest another 1300
> dollars in a new set of batteries and I would feel better about their
> survival if we used a better charging method.
> If someone could enlighten me about the resistor needed for the charger
and
> a drawing showing where the wires go with regard to the boost transformer
> and anything else I need to know but don't know to ask I sure would
> appreciate it. Gas prices are still going up and that makes the E-truck a
> viable option once again.
> Thanks to all
> Tom
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes 90 weight is the no brainer but I want a little more range and was
wondering what synthetic gear oil might be used to replace 90 weight. I
have used synthethic in othere vehicles before. Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 10:58 AM
Subject: Re: old golfcart transaxle lubricant.
> I have an electric 60's E-Z-GO cart and I think I put 90 weight in it a
> few years ago, seems to be working just fine... :-)
>
> Seth
>
>
> On Sunday, February 23, 2003, at 11:39 AM, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>
> > I wonder if there is a safe low viscosity lubricant I can use in a 40
> > year
> > old golfcart transaxle. 1960's vintage Laher three wheel cart. It is
> > a
> > beefy transaxle for such a small vehicle.........Lawrence
> > Rhodes.......Wonder what it is????? Do transaxles have markings and
> > such........
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION
>
> http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/387.html
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A biodiesel generator on a trailer could be used without much trouble. It
would leave the vehicle almost stock. Lawrence Rhodes...
----- Original Message -----
From: "murdoch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 12:04 PM
Subject: question about turning a RAV4 EV into a grid-chargeable hybrid
> Since the RAV4 EV can be owned and not just leased, (unlike the EV1,
> Honda EV+, Think EV at present, etc.), and since it seems to be a
> pretty good EV in many respects, I am wondering if anyone has given
> any thought to using a RAV4 EV in a project to equip it with some
> hybrid aspect.
>
> Specifically, instead of trying to get too complicated, I was
> wondering about loading a small diesel generator into the back of the
> vehicle itself and using it to charge the batteries, while the vehicle
> is in motion and being powered by the batteries. This might give the
> vehicle some extended range without sacrificing too much performance
> due to weight problems. Since it's already a four-seat small SUV,
> perhaps there would be room for this.
>
> Yes, I know, many EV fans would consider this the ruination of a
> perfectly good EV, but grid-chargeable hybrids are something I at
> least want to see researched, and they may turn out to have their good
> qualities, such as (if well-done) superior mileage and range, both.
> If the generator were powered by just a few gallons of 100% biodiesel,
> and if the mileage were awesome, I think such a car could be
> incredible.
>
> Of course, I do not mean to imply disrespect for the costs or
> challenges or pitfalls of such a project, just putting the idea out
> there to mull over. One key I think would be finding a suitable
> generator in terms of weight and power. Another would be determining
> whether a battery management system and other electronics could manage
> the problem of charging and discharging both at the same time. Even
> if this is generally possible in some other vehicles, since the RAV4
> might not have been designed for it, and since the batteries are of
> considerable value, I'd wonder about that.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Laher really scoots at 40v. Everything works fine. A testiment to a
simple electric vehicle. I'm glad I kept it stock. Now I need to figure a
way of getting new tires, servicing the front and rear bearings and get a
left mirror. All the electrics work. Turnsignals Lights etc. Need to
install a voltmeter & ammeter. A speedometer from a bicycle aught to work.
Lawrence Rhodes......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The after-market series-hybrid modification is pretty far
from viable at this time, if ever.
All you need to do is look into commercially available
gen-set combinations. To get one that reliably puts out
a solid 10 kW would weigh you down many hundreds
of pounds and tons of space. To get an idea of such a
beast, figure that it's considerably louder and larger than
the (outdoor) compressor of a large central A/C unit.
(So that's kind of a no-go for the cargo area!).
Many people have worked on this problem, and there
aren't many encouraging results. AC Propulsion trailers
are one of the best, but they are costly and weigh over
400 lbs, despite using a light weight motorcycle engine
and custom AC generator. And they're rather loud.
The UC Davis hybrids utilize conventional [small] car
engines, which are actually heavier and larger, but not
as loud. Other than that, RV generators are loud,
smelly, and are to puny to support even 5kW load for
long enough to make sense. Your typical Home Depot
special would probably fall apart within a few hours at
5-10 kW, and you'd need the biggest model to just to
get that.
At 12:04 PM 2/23/03 -0800, murdoch wrote:
Since the RAV4 EV can be owned and not just leased, (unlike the EV1,
Honda EV+, Think EV at present, etc.), and since it seems to be a
pretty good EV in many respects, I am wondering if anyone has given
any thought to using a RAV4 EV in a project to equip it with some
hybrid aspect.
Specifically, instead of trying to get too complicated, I was
wondering about loading a small diesel generator into the back of the
vehicle itself and using it to charge the batteries, while the vehicle
is in motion and being powered by the batteries. This might give the
vehicle some extended range without sacrificing too much performance
due to weight problems. Since it's already a four-seat small SUV,
perhaps there would be room for this.
Yes, I know, many EV fans would consider this the ruination of a
perfectly good EV, but grid-chargeable hybrids are something I at
least want to see researched, and they may turn out to have their good
qualities, such as (if well-done) superior mileage and range, both.
If the generator were powered by just a few gallons of 100% biodiesel,
and if the mileage were awesome, I think such a car could be
incredible.
Of course, I do not mean to imply disrespect for the costs or
challenges or pitfalls of such a project, just putting the idea out
there to mull over. One key I think would be finding a suitable
generator in terms of weight and power. Another would be determining
whether a battery management system and other electronics could manage
the problem of charging and discharging both at the same time. Even
if this is generally possible in some other vehicles, since the RAV4
might not have been designed for it, and since the batteries are of
considerable value, I'd wonder about that.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim Coate wrote:
> Where does the 1 of N decoder get its power from (to run the decoder
> and to pull in the relay)?
I'd probably power the relay coil and decoder from the D+ and D- lines.
There are many schemes that will work. The simplest (if N is a small
number) is to simply put a different value capacitor in series with each
relay coil. To pull in a relay, you have to apply AC to D+ and D- of the
right frequency. For example, I have some DPST 5v reed relays with a
123mH coil:
N C frequency
--- ------- ---------
1 0.1uF 1.4 KHz
2 0.05uF 2.0 KHz
3 0.022uF 3.1 KHz
4 0.01uF 4.5 KHz
There are more elaborate schemes as well. For example, the voltage on D+
and D- is switched on/off to send serial digital data to select a relay,
then held at a DC voltage as long as that relay is to remain pulled in.
There are many remote control chips to do this.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>> if it has a PM rotor, there is negligible heat generation in the
>> rotor.
Rich Rudman replied:
> NOT so, there is LOTS of eddy current losses in the back iron on the
> rotor.
Maybe you wrote too fast, Rich. I said the _rotor_ losses were
negligible in a AC PM (synchronous) motor. The stator windings and iron
certainly do get hot.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
>> Otmar says [fiber optics] are getting REALLY cheap like $2 an end.
>> I have to see to believe, but I hear and listen.
...and what does a physical wire and connector run? Like $0.10 per end.
The way I can see "fiber" being cheaper than wire is if there is no
fiber per se. Just an LED and a phototransistor positioned so they are
in sight of each other.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I wonder is a 10 kw fuel cell with reformer and enough fuel (gasoline,
kerosine, methane, or propane) for say 500 miles would fit on a small (4
ft x 8 ft) trailer and how much it would cost ?? Atleast it would be
quiet and non polluting.
Maybe this combo could be rented by EVers for those extra long trips.
On Sun, 23 Feb 2003 14:48:38 -0800 William Korthof
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> The after-market series-hybrid modification is pretty far
> from viable at this time, if ever.
>
> All you need to do is look into commercially available
> gen-set combinations. To get one that reliably puts out
> a solid 10 kW would weigh you down many hundreds
> of pounds and tons of space. To get an idea of such a
> beast, figure that it's considerably louder and larger than
> the (outdoor) compressor of a large central A/C unit.
> (So that's kind of a no-go for the cargo area!).
>
> Many people have worked on this problem, and there
> aren't many encouraging results. AC Propulsion trailers
> are one of the best, but they are costly and weigh over
> 400 lbs, despite using a light weight motorcycle engine
> and custom AC generator. And they're rather loud.
> The UC Davis hybrids utilize conventional [small] car
> engines, which are actually heavier and larger, but not
> as loud. Other than that, RV generators are loud,
> smelly, and are to puny to support even 5kW load for
> long enough to make sense. Your typical Home Depot
> special would probably fall apart within a few hours at
> 5-10 kW, and you'd need the biggest model to just to
> get that.
>
> At 12:04 PM 2/23/03 -0800, murdoch wrote:
> >Since the RAV4 EV can be owned and not just leased, (unlike the
> EV1,
> >Honda EV+, Think EV at present, etc.), and since it seems to be a
> >pretty good EV in many respects, I am wondering if anyone has given
> >any thought to using a RAV4 EV in a project to equip it with some
> >hybrid aspect.
> >
> >Specifically, instead of trying to get too complicated, I was
> >wondering about loading a small diesel generator into the back of
> the
> >vehicle itself and using it to charge the batteries, while the
> vehicle
> >is in motion and being powered by the batteries. This might give
> the
> >vehicle some extended range without sacrificing too much
> performance
> >due to weight problems. Since it's already a four-seat small SUV,
> >perhaps there would be room for this.
> >
> >Yes, I know, many EV fans would consider this the ruination of a
> >perfectly good EV, but grid-chargeable hybrids are something I at
> >least want to see researched, and they may turn out to have their
> good
> >qualities, such as (if well-done) superior mileage and range, both.
> >If the generator were powered by just a few gallons of 100%
> biodiesel,
> >and if the mileage were awesome, I think such a car could be
> >incredible.
> >
> >Of course, I do not mean to imply disrespect for the costs or
> >challenges or pitfalls of such a project, just putting the idea out
> >there to mull over. One key I think would be finding a suitable
> >generator in terms of weight and power. Another would be
> determining
> >whether a battery management system and other electronics could
> manage
> >the problem of charging and discharging both at the same time.
> Even
> >if this is generally possible in some other vehicles, since the
> RAV4
> >might not have been designed for it, and since the batteries are of
> >considerable value, I'd wonder about that.
>
>
________________________________________________________________
Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
Only $9.95 per month!
Visit www.juno.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Got big bucks? How about a Capstone Turbine with a PFC-50?
Minimal weight, quiet, efficient, mount inside the vehicle.
Capstone Turbines:
http://www.microturbine.com/
PFC-50:
http://www.manzanitamicro.com/chargers2.htm
At 12:04 PM 2/23/03 -0800, murdoch wrote:
Since the RAV4 EV can be owned and not just leased, (unlike the EV1,
Honda EV+, Think EV at present, etc.), and since it seems to be a
pretty good EV in many respects, I am wondering if anyone has given
any thought to using a RAV4 EV in a project to equip it with some
hybrid aspect.
Specifically, instead of trying to get too complicated, I was
wondering about loading a small diesel generator into the back of the
vehicle itself and using it to charge the batteries, while the vehicle
is in motion and being powered by the batteries. This might give the
vehicle some extended range without sacrificing too much performance
due to weight problems. Since it's already a four-seat small SUV,
perhaps there would be room for this.
Yes, I know, many EV fans would consider this the ruination of a
perfectly good EV, but grid-chargeable hybrids are something I at
least want to see researched, and they may turn out to have their good
qualities, such as (if well-done) superior mileage and range, both.
If the generator were powered by just a few gallons of 100% biodiesel,
and if the mileage were awesome, I think such a car could be
incredible.
Of course, I do not mean to imply disrespect for the costs or
challenges or pitfalls of such a project, just putting the idea out
there to mull over. One key I think would be finding a suitable
generator in terms of weight and power. Another would be determining
whether a battery management system and other electronics could manage
the problem of charging and discharging both at the same time. Even
if this is generally possible in some other vehicles, since the RAV4
might not have been designed for it, and since the batteries are of
considerable value, I'd wonder about that.
Roy LeMeur Seattle WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informational Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Better, but... Most folks follow the scheduled oil changes which is once
every 3,000 to 6,000 miles (depending on the car). That's one oil
change every three to six months typically (there is no benefit to
changing your oil every 1,000 miles, it just wastes resources).
-snip-
> This brings on an I.C.E cost of $673 per month.
> Unaccountable pros/cons for I.C.E.:
> Pros - Gas is everywhere
> Cons - Polluting, supplies foreign nations with capital, expensive
>
> To own a $27,500 electric del Sol (or whatever four seater import
> wonder you want), for four years, you will have to pay this every month:
> -$27,500 over 48 months without financing is $573 per month
> -40 miles per day using 20kwh to do it (not scientific number, but you
> know where I'm getting at), times 30 days is 600kwh per month, at 10
> (mine is still less, and consider a meter dedicated to the EV) cents
> per kwh, you will pay about $60 to fill up your tank for a month
> -I'll go as far as to say that sometime in that 4 years you will need
> to replace your pack, costing $6,000 (hopefully prices will have
> dropped a tad, from their current estimated $7,800, I'm talking about
> lithium-ion, in which a pack of 6 units is around 500 lbs. in the
> quantity and use these packs find, their price should drop over the
> next four years, no?) - $125 per month displaced cost
>
> This brings an electric cost of $758 per month. Although a little
> more, lets take into account some government money. I think you get
PS. federal money is going away quick, GW wants it gone in a couple
years.
> 10% of the purchase price back, so lets subtract $2750 from our initial
> cost, making the vehicle only $24,750 ($515 in raw car cost), or a
> grand total of $700. Here in Georgia I'll get another $2500 back.
> That makes the car only cost $22,250 ($464 in raw car cost), or a grand
> total of $649 per month (less than the ICE!).
> Unaccountable pros/cons for electric:
> Pros - HOV lanes with only one person, zero direct emissions, EV grins
> on a daily basis, the joy of a nice car
> Cons - Lack of charging infrastructure, shorter range (hopefully not by
> much, but how much do I need)
>
> Well this is what I think a Distortion Networks conversion would have
> to have:
> -The AC drive system I've spoken about, 100kw, with regen, and reverse,
> and diagnostics, and all those nice things ($6,500 (this is a little
> shy of the price I paid to get a unit from Victor, and this is also the
> price I'm looking at paying to buy them from wholesale)
As I recall Victor's prices are surplus prices. Siemens want's a bit
more if you're buying new stuff from them.
> -A completely replaced interior (new plastics, new seats, Wet Okole
> neoprene seat covers for that cool feeling, a nice stereo (I'm thinking
> Eclipse and JL Audio) (give $2,000in labor)
> -New paint job (give $3,000 to an outside company)
> -Lithium-Ion pack, say around 22kw capacity (give $8,000)
> -A nice fat PFC charger - think you can make me one for Lithiums?
> Maybe i'll have to settle for less (give $4,000)
> -My trunk (wow, the quarter-ton lithium pack could afford me such a
> thing) (priceless)
> -An automatic or CVT transmission ($500) (I like the CVT better, cuz we
> can program it to stay within certain RPM ranges to be most efficient.
> Now why would a manual transmission be more efficient than a CVT? With
> a manual you select between five gears to get the motor within the RPM
> range that is most efficient for the speed and power requirements of
> the situation you are driving. A CVT can handle these variables
> directly and perform the task much more efficiently, with the ease of
> an automatic, and with almost the efficiency of a manual?)
> -A donor at wholesale (I've applied for my used car dealers license)
> ($3,000)
Manual transmission significantly more efficient than CVTs. On the
order of 90% efficient (complete drive train) whereas best CVT I've
heard of is about 80%. AC motors have a HUGE torque band where they are
efficient. In fact all of the OEM EVs use AC drives with a SINGLE speed
transmission (95%+ efficient).
The advantage of CVTs is for ICEs engines which have a very narrow
torque band where they are efficient.
If you are going to custom build EVs go the way the OEMs are and use a
single speed tranny, that's what the EV-1 uses and it's highly
efficient.
> Wow, $27,500 for parts. Now granted I havent taken into account labor,
> and since all I want to do is break-even on these vehicles, profit isnt
> an issue. The point of manufacturing say, ten units, would be to get
> my feet in the water with distributors, manufacturers, and suppliers,
> to prove we can do what we say we can.
I'm guessing that a completely new interior is going to cost more than
$2,000 but let's go with that. I'll also bet that buying the AC drive
direct from Seimens as an OEM would cost you $7,000-$8,000 wholesale,
but I could be wrong so we'll go with $6500.
You forgot battery racks, cables ($1 a foot? wholesale), connectors ($1
a piece wholesale?) . Of course this is only significant if you are
using a lot of batteries (which you typically will do when running 300+
volts).
How many volts are those LIon batteries you were talking about? Only 6
of them doesn't sound like you're even going to top 100 volts which
means you can't use the Siemens system (not unless you plan on selling
slugs)
There is also a few more dollars in instrumentation.
Plus you forgot the BMS, that is going to cost quite a bit too.
I assumed you were going to use new gliders because you're going to have
a hard time finding dealers and customers willing to plop down over
$25,000 for a used car (that's what they'll see it as).
Even if you are willing to work for free the dealer is going to want
several thousand dollars for selling the car (I haven't met an
altruistic car dealer yet). I don't see any REAL way you are going to
get these to the customer for less than $30,000 to $35,000, and that's
assuming you can find 10 customers willing to spend that much money on a
used car.
>
> Wishful thinking? Maybe. An attempt? Yup. I like hearing comments,
> as it helps to revise my thoughts, so please, comment away.
I'm mostly playing devils advocate here so while I'm at it consider
this: My wifes new Nissan comes with a 70,00 mile warranty (it did cost
a couple hundred extra for that but not much) Dodge sells most of their
vehicles with 70,000 mile warranties, VW and some others come with
100,000 mile warranties.
The dealer gives us free 3 month/3,000 mile oil changes and lube for
life (not all that uncommon from what I understand). So our only
maintenance fees are going to be air filter, drive belt, PCV, and wiper
changes every 30,000 miles, radiator fluid changes at 60,000 miles and
something else (I forget what) My guess is WAY less than $1,000 for the
first 120,000 miles.
Also if you pack lasts 2 years (will it? I don't know) at the end of
four years it's going to need to be replaced again while the ICE is
still running fine and likely still under warranty.
My ford escort is coming up on 150,000 miles with about $2,000 worth of
maintenance and that includes oil changes, the only major things I've
had to replace so far were the clutch and timing belt (not expensive but
a pain in the backside for both of those, I did then myself). Granted
if I'd paid someone to replace the clutch and timing belt I'd be at
about $3,000. I also only pay about $12-$15 for oil changes cause I
wait for them to go on sale (happens once or twice a month around
here). If it costs more than that I do it myself since that only costs
about $8.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Specifically, instead of trying to get too complicated, I was
> wondering about loading a small diesel generator into the back of the
> vehicle itself and using it to charge the batteries, while the vehicle
> is in motion and being powered by the batteries. This might give the
> vehicle some extended range without sacrificing too much performance
> due to weight problems. Since it's already a four-seat small SUV,
> perhaps there would be room for this.
This idea comes up from time to time. Here is what I've come up with
lately: A VW diesel motor (from like a rabbit) weights in at about
230lbs and can produce up to 50 hp peak and 20-30hp all day long, a
generator head that can do 10 to 20 kw weighs about 100 lbs or so.
Total is about 350lbs which can easily be supported by a class 3 trailer
hitch. This will give you enough extra (average) power to run
continuously.
A few simple modifications and the engine can run on straight vegetable
oil or used fast food fryer oil. Easier and cheaper than biodesiel and
no byproducts. This has that advantage of being cheap (free?),
plentiful, and very clean burning. Per mile driven, about as clean as
propane. If you run out of waste veggy oil it will still work on diesel
(though not nearly as clean)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, 2003-02-23 at 15:00, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I wonder is a 10 kw fuel cell with reformer and enough fuel (gasoline,
> kerosine, methane, or propane) for say 500 miles would fit on a small (4
> ft x 8 ft) trailer and how much it would cost ?? Atleast it would be
> quiet and non polluting.
When have they started building reformers that are non-polluting?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, it seems that Mr. Sharkey has the logical answer of using a VW front
end as a pusher. Easy to find, build, low low pollution, low noise, etc...
Keep in mind that the RAV4 (as well as the Prizm and most AC/SepEx) systems
have regen control. A pusher removes the need for a charger, fiddling with
the computers, HV into the pack, and other issues you're going to run into
with a motor/generator (for example: Vibration ripping your thing apart).
The problem he seems to have is in the area of overheating and such.
Anyone else built a pusher? Thoughts?
CZ
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 7:56 PM
Subject: Re: question about turning a RAV4 EV into a grid-chargeable hybrid
> > Specifically, instead of trying to get too complicated, I was
> > wondering about loading a small diesel generator into the back of the
> > vehicle itself and using it to charge the batteries, while the vehicle
> > is in motion and being powered by the batteries. This might give the
> > vehicle some extended range without sacrificing too much performance
> > due to weight problems. Since it's already a four-seat small SUV,
> > perhaps there would be room for this.
>
> This idea comes up from time to time. Here is what I've come up with
> lately: A VW diesel motor (from like a rabbit) weights in at about
> 230lbs and can produce up to 50 hp peak and 20-30hp all day long, a
> generator head that can do 10 to 20 kw weighs about 100 lbs or so.
> Total is about 350lbs which can easily be supported by a class 3 trailer
> hitch. This will give you enough extra (average) power to run
> continuously.
> A few simple modifications and the engine can run on straight vegetable
> oil or used fast food fryer oil. Easier and cheaper than biodesiel and
> no byproducts. This has that advantage of being cheap (free?),
> plentiful, and very clean burning. Per mile driven, about as clean as
> propane. If you run out of waste veggy oil it will still work on diesel
> (though not nearly as clean)
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Didn't the NASA or auto manufactures develop a reformer inorder to
utilize the existing infrastructure for gasoline ?
I don't know the specifics on reformers.
Do you ?
On 23 Feb 2003 18:05:29 -0700 Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
> On Sun, 2003-02-23 at 15:00, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > I wonder is a 10 kw fuel cell with reformer and enough fuel
> (gasoline,
> > kerosine, methane, or propane) for say 500 miles would fit on a
> small (4
> > ft x 8 ft) trailer and how much it would cost ?? Atleast it
> would be
> > quiet and non polluting.
>
> When have they started building reformers that are non-polluting?
>
>
________________________________________________________________
Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
Only $9.95 per month!
Visit www.juno.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
With a little web surfing this morning, I compiled a chart of the basic
length, wheelbase, curb weight, cargo weight etc. for various pickup
trucks - see http://www.coate.org/jim/ev/archives/truck_sizes.html
Besides the good frame layout, the S-10 seems to also do well in just
the basics of high payload for a small truck (although the Toyota does
well for an extended cab).
Also interesting is the trend of all makes to get bigger but loose cargo
capability in recent years.
Alan Shedd wrote:
> Hi Jim:
>
> I have helped schools with S-10 and Ranger conversions. I think the S-10 is
> a little easier to convert if you are planning to put the batteries between
> the frame rails. (I think this is the most secure and best looking method.)
> The frame rails have a wider spacing on the S-10 than the Ranger. On the
> Ranger, the leaf springs are to the outside of the frame rails and the rails
> are about 37" outside to outside (on an '83) On the S-10, the leaf springs
> are underneath the frame rails. Also the rear suspension on the Ranger uses
> staggered shocks - the one on the right is angled forward while the one on
> the left is angled to the rear from the axle. Further, the differential
> housing is not centered between the rear wheels so the drive shaft runs at
> an angle from the back of the transmission to the differential. We were
> able to mount 5 T-145s in the engine compartment, three T-145s turned
> long-dimension fore and aft in a box on the left of the driveshaft in front
> of the axle, two on the right side and five more in a box behind the axle.
> This was a long-bed truck and there was more room behind the axle to install
> more batteries but the school limited the voltage to 96 (ed. program rules).
> This arrangement provided good front-rear and side-to-side weight
> distribution.
>
> On an S-10 conversion, we located 2 T-145s up front. Three each in boxes on
> each side of the drive shaft (inside the rails) in front of the axle and
> eight in a box behind the axle. I have several photos, dimensions, and can
> put you in touch with people at each school who can run out and measure
> things you have questions about.
>
> You can get some dimensional data from service manuals for the trucks but
> there is no substitute for looking at on and measuring it the way you want.
> Let me know how I can help.
>
> -Alan
>
> Alan C. Shedd, P.E.
> Advisor to Georgia's Electric Vehicle Education Program
> (cell) 770-654-0027
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Coate" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "EV List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 4:35 PM
> Subject: pick-up truck dimensions?
>
> >
> > Anyone out there who has been through a pickup truck conversion have
> > dimensions they'd like to share?
> >
> > What I'm looking for are numbers like the spacing between the side
> > rails, location of the drive shaft, location of differentail/rear axle,
> > location of shocks, etc. ie the starting point for designing possible
> > battery boxes.
> >
> > In particular I'm wondering what the difference is between long beds and
> > short beds - is the extra length all between the cab and rear wheels, or
> > is some of it behind the wheels? I have a '92 S-10 short bed, so any
> > other make or model would be useful to hear about.
> >
> > I can go crawl around junk yards, but... why reinvent the wheel when
> > it's cold out there :-)
> >
> > _________
> > Jim Coate
> > 1992 Chevy S-10
> > 1970s Elec-Trak E20
> > http://www.eeevee.com
> >
--
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S-10
1970s Elec-Trak E20
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A while back when I posted my dynomometer plots for the
Metricmind/Seimens AC drive Ranger a number of Portland EVers asked
where they could find the same equipment. I didn't have any suggestions
then, but these folks are highly regarded on an import racing list I
lurk on:
http://www.matrixengineering.cc/dyno/rates.php
I love to see the plots for the Zombie, or Victor's CRX... maybe OEVA
would like to do a group night...
Mark Farver
--
"The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of
zeal, well-meaning but without understanding."
-- Justice Louis O. Brandeis, Olmstead vs. United States
--- End Message ---
