EV Digest 2609
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) old golfcart transaxle lubricant.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Current Eliminator News3-23-03
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) Re: You Don't Have to Plug It In!
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: New Product - AC Drive System
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: BMS cost (was Re: LIN bus link)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Waah!!!
by "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Energy policy pics
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: You Don't Have to Plug It In!
by "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Waah!!!
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: EVLN(Suzuki Hybrid B version comes in at 1.39m yen) conversions
by "steve" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Tango Volume of Production Versus Cost per Unit
by Rick Woodbury <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Inspired Corporation's Product - Part 2 (long, but please read!)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: You Don't Have to Plug It In!
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) OT: Funding (was Re: Tango Volume of Production Versus Cost per Unit)
by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Brush advance on Honda
by Seth Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: old golfcart transaxle lubricant.
by Seth Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: BMS cost (was Re: LIN bus link)
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Energy policy pics
by murdoch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) question about turning a RAV4 EV into a grid-chargeable hybrid
by murdoch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: LRR Revisited (lots of URLs)
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: New Product - AC Drive System
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: BMS cost (was Re: LIN bus link)
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: New Product - AC Drive System
by Sam Harper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I wonder if there is a safe low viscosity lubricant I can use in a 40 year
old golfcart transaxle. 1960's vintage Laher three wheel cart. It is a
beefy transaxle for such a small vehicle.........Lawrence
Rhodes.......Wonder what it is????? Do transaxles have markings and
such........
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
5 more passes today,all confirming 4 bad batteries.Current Eliminator still
ran 10.30s.This week,the series motor in CE gained 14F over ambient.The runs
were spread over a 4 hours due to track problems.Batteries gained less than
18F all day.After a good charge all nite I tested each batt.There are 2 very
bad ones and 2 that are fair.The supplier said last week that they will be
sent this monday.Looking foward to leaning on a good set in 2 weeks.I need 3
days in the woods with my horses.
nedra OUTLAW Dennis Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> Why can't you just hook up two wires from the bad boy to the Prius
> pack. No finish charge. Just enough to keep the ICE off.
So far, it looks like the Prius controls its battery state of charge
based on amphours in/out. If I insert extra amphours with an external
charger, the system flags it as an error (pack voltage too high for its
assumed state of charge). So I have to find some way to trick it.
Toyota has an external charger. Their shop proceedure is to charge the
HV battery, then disconnect the 12v battery to reset all the error
codes. Unfortunately, this throws away a lot of useful data just to
clear a few bytes somewhere.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
>> Guess I'm a skeptic this morning.
> Yea, my BS detector clipped on this also. Nice numbers, but the
> motor cooling is a bit questionable. The controller weight is
> really light also...
They struck me as theoretical numbers, from someone who has yet to
actually build a controller.
> I will bet that the limit for an AC system will always be cooling
> the rotor.
No; if it has a PM rotor, there is negligible heat generation in the
rotor.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>> Then you only have one expensive central controller. It needs
>> enough outputs to select any one of the relays, and then then
>> does all its voltage measurements (and charge or discharge
>> currents) thru the single pair of high-current wires.
Rich Rudman wrote:
> Giving you a spider Webed battery pack. Also not a option in my book.
Rich, *all* of the options turn into a spider web. You have to sit down
and draw it all up, and count the number of connections and feet of wire
before you can pass judgement.
Here's what I proposed. There are N identical battery modules like this:
_______________
A+ _________|__/\/\______/__|____B+
to central | fuse . |
monitoring | . | to battery
system | fuse . |
A- _________|__/\/\______/__|____B-
| . |
| _______ . |
D+__________|_| |___ |
serial data | |1 of N | _| |
to select N | |decoder| _| |
D- _________|_|circuit|___| |
| |_______| |
|_______________|
Two wires go to each battery (B+ and B-). Then, a 4-wire cable "daisy
chains" to all the modules. D+ and D- are serial data to operate one of
N DPST relays in the modules. A+ and A- are the voltage of the selected
battery, to be measured by the central system. If the fuses and relays
in the modules are large enough, you can also load or charge the
selected battery via the A+ and A- lines.
The total number of connections in the battery box is N x 6. However,
the ones to the batteries are short (if the module is right at the
battery), and the rest of the connections are bussed.
> Data buss could also be a cheap light fiber, as in Otmar's proposed
> system.
You need to price out a "cheap" light fiber. Fiber optic systems are
generally far more expensive than wire and connectors.
> Don't forget the KISS principle.
Exactly right! It is all too easy to design a beautiful do-it-all
complicated module, and not realize how expensive it is going to get
when you have dozens of them.
> Data, Data, Data everywhere,
> More than I can parse!
> Somewhere out there is a Byte
> that can save my Arse!!
> The BMS's mantra.
Ain't it the truth!
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mmm... I might do that again, however dropping the Prizm's pack is a pain in
the tail. I did figure out how to keep from stressing the bolts, but it's
still a job.
I'm thinking about just going with a new pack. I've learned a lot, and there
is this deal for a pack of 50 for 2k. That's really not that bad...
The secret on the bolts is this: You *NEVER* lift the pack by the bolts. Not
even to snug it up. What you do is you jack up the pack under the car, line
it up, then use a series of smaller little jacks under each bolt hole to
snug the pack firmly against the car before torquing down the bolt. That way
you never lift the pack by the threads, and they stay nice and happy.
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 11:21 AM
Subject: Re: Waah!!!
> This happens to some of my batteries also. (Delphi 8v) I'm not replacing
> the pack. I got a supply of used batteries and am eeking along untill
> something better comes along. I'd find the offending battery and replace
it
> with a used one. Lawrence Rhodes.....
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 4:49 PM
> Subject: Waah!!!
>
>
> > Well, I've been driving the Prizm around lightly this winter, and ever
> since
> > it got cold, I've only been able to get 12amps tops out of the pack
before
> > the car was out. (52ah pack)
> >
> > Thought it was because of the cold, so I did a quick test in the shed.
> Took
> > a Hawker battery, charged it up, discharged it under C conditions
(26ah).
> > Lasted for 30 mins before dropping below 11 volts.
> >
> > Which means it should have an effective capacity of 13 amp/hours. Now
the
> > car has two sets of these in series, so it should be able to put out
> > 26amp/hours. And I'm getting only 12.
> >
> > Sounds like one of the batteries opened up again in the pack. Drat. When
I
> > dropped the pack in the fall I found one battery that read 12.8 but as
> soon
> > as any load was placed on it it dropped to zero volts.
> >
> > Why does this happen if I might ask?
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > (yes, yes, I know: I have to replace the whole pack. Waah...)
> >
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John,
I would also like a few of them sent my way.
http://download.com.com/3120-20-0.html?qt=iview&tg=dl-2001
This is a picture viewer that is free and will allow you to save the files
as JPEG which are much smaller than .bmp
The picture viewer is only 864kb to download.
Rod
Shelton, John D. AW2 wrote:
Listers,
I have some great military pics that I think nearly everyone on the
list will agree with and like wholeheartedly. I don't have a web site to
post them on but send me a blank e-mail and I'll paste the pics on them for
you. If anyone likes them enough they can feel free to post them on any web
site they might have. If you want to go that route I'll try to e-mail a .bmp
image but they are kind of big in that form and I'm somewhat limited on how
big the files are that I can send.
John David
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Simple. Find the shunt or measuring frob, then put your charger just ahead
of that.
This is the same way the Dolphin determines SOC on the batteries; the
MagneCharger simply taps in ahead of the shunt and wakes up the computer.
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 1:35 PM
Subject: Re: You Don't Have to Plug It In!
> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> > Why can't you just hook up two wires from the bad boy to the Prius
> > pack. No finish charge. Just enough to keep the ICE off.
>
> So far, it looks like the Prius controls its battery state of charge
> based on amphours in/out. If I insert extra amphours with an external
> charger, the system flags it as an error (pack voltage too high for its
> assumed state of charge). So I have to find some way to trick it.
>
> Toyota has an external charger. Their shop proceedure is to charge the
> HV battery, then disconnect the 12v battery to reset all the error
> codes. Unfortunately, this throws away a lot of useful data just to
> clear a few bytes somewhere.
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 23 Feb 2003 at 13:04, Neil Adams wrote:
> | Which means it should have an effective capacity of 13 amp/hours. Now
> the | car has two sets of these in series, so it should be able to put out
> | 26amp/hours. And I'm getting only 12.
>
> Errr! Not so. In series gives same Ah (but double Wh).
>
> And, BTW amp/hour is a rate of acceleration of charge, I think you mean Ah
> (Amp-Hours).
Amperes measure instantaneous current, so I can't see how amp/hour (amperes
per hour) would be a meaningful unit of measurement. I think that delta-A / hour
(change in current per hour) would measure the rate at which a charge was
tapering.
So, yes, I think we're talking amp-hours (AH) here.
As for the series/parallel story -- to be perfectly clear, the USE Prizms had two
series strings of 25 batteries each; those two strings were connected in parallel.
So, although Christopher wrote "two sets of these in series," I'm sure he meant
"two sets in parallel." He's definitely correct that with the two in parallel, his
total
capacity should ^theoretically^ be 26 AH (if the two were sharing equally).
To get to the point: A battery that drops to zero under load has a high internal
resistance. High internal resistance ==> discharged; most likely that battery has
one or more cells that are dead or reversed.
It's hard to prevent this in a long series string of cells without any kind of battery-
level management (cell level management would be better still). It's difficult to see
such a problem on the voltmeter because any one cell's difference between fully
charged and discharged is a tiny percentage of the string's voltage, so it gets lost
in the noise.
With each cycle the imbalance gets worse and worse. The cell's capacity
declines further because of the chronic undercharging. Eventually the cell is dead
or reversed.
In this situation with two parallel strings, the one (or more) cells' high internal
resistance means that its string is probably delivering practically no drive current
and accepting practically no charge (though it's quite possible that the good string
is merrily discharging itself into the bad one, trying to charge it at whatever rate
it
can attain given the high resistance). This would also help to obscure the lower
voltage.
Christopher, you're probably effectively running on only one string; no wonder you
only get 12 amp-hours.
David Roden
Akron OH USA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For this article it helps to know current conversions.
For the Japanese yen to the US dollar 1.39 million yen is US $11,712.20.
The basic car, the Gasoline A model, is by far the cheapest, is 490,000 yen,
($4128.75) and boasts fuel efficiency of 26 km per liter.
The 26km per liter is about 25km per quart or about 95 km per US gallon,
or about 58 mpg.
Steve Love [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce EVangel Parmenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 4:55 AM
Subject: EVLN(Suzuki Hybrid B version comes in at 1.39m yen)
> EVLN(Suzuki Hybrid B version comes in at 1.39m yen)
> [The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV informational
> purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.] --- {EVangel}
> http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?nb20030220a3.htm
> Suzuki looking to get the jump on rivals with 490,000 yen car
> Getting the jump on deflation, Suzuki Motor Corp. has taken the wraps
> off a 490,000 yen car.
> On Jan. 22, Suzuki, an affiliate of General Motors Corp. of the
> United States, introduced four versions of the Twin, a 2.6-meter,
two-seater
> minicar.
> The Gasoline A model is by far the cheapest, at 490,000 yen, and
> boasts fuel efficiency of 26 km per liter.
> Despite its modest price, the 660cc Gasoline A is equipped with a
> driver-side air bag and antilock braking system, although it is
> otherwise bare bones, lacking such amenities as automatic
> transmission and air conditioning.
> The Gasoline A version costs 60,000 yen less than what has been the
> cheapest minicar, Suzuki's Alto.
> But a Honda Motor Co. official brushed aside the impact of the Twin,
> saying, "Price is only one of various attractive elements" of a product.
> Suzuki has managed to hold down the cost of the Gasoline A model by
> equipping it only with a manual transmission and doing away with power
> steering and air conditioning. The more-upscale Gasoline B version
> sells for 840,000 yen.
> The top-of-the-line Hybrid B version comes in at 1.39 million yen. It
> is powered by a hybrid propulsion system that provides it with fuel
> efficiency of 34 km per liter.
> The price compares with the 2.18 million yen for Toyota Motor Corp.'s
> Prius hybrid sedan, which gets 31 km per liter. Both the Twin Hybrid B
> and the Prius come with automatic transmission.
> A hybrid car is powered by both a gasoline engine and electric motor,
> which increases its fuel efficiency by transmitting kinetic power to
> wheels when it starts moving or accelerates.
> A hybrid converts kinetic power into electricity, storing it in a
> battery when the brakes are applied.
> In 1979, Suzuki debuted the first of its series of Alto-brand minicars.
> The first Alto sold for 470,000 yen and was popular with women.
> The Twin's Gasoline A, which has rolled into showrooms more than 20
> years later, costs only 20,000 yen more than the first Alto.
> Technological innovations of the past two decades give the Twin much
> higher quality and a chassis structure of far greater rigidity, which
> better protects passengers.
> A Suzuki official in charge of research and development said: "During
> the bubble economy years, standard equipment on minicars began to
> assume posh and superfluous features.
> "In devising this model, we thought we should return to the starting
> point of minicars -- that they are a practical and easy-to-use means
> of transportation."
> Also this month, Suzuki unveiled its Choinori 50cc scooter, which
> sells for 59,800 yen, a record low for any Suzuki scooter.
> "Merchandise made in Japan will not perish," Suzuki Chairman Osamu
> Suzuki said, adding his company is determined to follow any business
> strategy necessary to navigate the storm of deflation.
> The Japan Times: Feb. 20, 2003 (C) All rights reserved
> =====
> ____
> ~/__|o\__
> '@----- @'---(=
> . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> . EV List Editor & RE newswires
> . (originator of the above ASCII art)
> =========================
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Is that $ 2B mean that the Tango needs $ 2 Billion to get into mass
> production (for certification, crash testing, and assembly plant) ?
> What volume can be produced for that sizeable investment ?
Based on projections given to us by one of Lotus's past chief executives, to
get the price down to $10,000 per Tango would require a production volume of
about 100,000 units per year. Typically an automotive company spends over $1
billion to set up such production. Without doing an in-depth study let's
guess that we could produce 150,000 Tangos for $2 billion dollars as a
single project. Let's assume that a community has the goal of reducing
traffic congestion. According to the Booze, Allen and Hamilton and UC
Berkeley studies, lane capacity increases from 2,000 cars per hour to 4,450
cars per hour by using a commuter car of Tango dimensions. Many rail
projects cost many times more than the $2 billion projected for this and
would have far less ability to reduce congestion. According to the Bureau of
Transportation Statistics, principal means of transportation to work in the
US is as follows:
118,000,000 100.0% total workers
92,362,000 78.2% drive by themselves in a car
5,779,000 4.9% use public transportation
3,627,000 3.1% walk only
3,288,000 2.8% work at home
749,000 .6% use bicycle or motorcycle
These are just the highlights. The complete report is downloadable at:
http://www.commutercars.com/downloads/reports/meansOfTransportation.pdf
> Where can any state, especially CA, get that much money when it has a
> budget deficit of $ 35 Billion ?
I don't know. How do states buy commuter rail that costs 3 time as much or
more? Maybe if the voters in an area believed that the traffic congestion
could be eliminated by such an expenditure, they'd vote to increase gasoline
tax to pay for it. If I lived in LA and believed that by paying an extra
$.50 a gallon for gasoline, I could drive freely without congestion, I'd
certainly do it. In 1991 13 billion gallons of gasoline were sold in CA (the
most recent figures I have at hand). $.15 a gallon would fund $2 billion.
$.50 would fund $6.5 billion which would build about 600,000 Tangos. That
would be 10% of the multi-car households in CA. If the cars were offered to
the denizens of the most congested zip codes, a 30% density of commuter cars
might be achieved. If this happened, a 3 or 4 lane highway could sacrifice a
lane to be split in two for UNVs (Ultra-Narrow Vehicles). The UNV lanes
would only be at about 40% capacity, while the others would be either the
same or somewhat less congested. With the traffic flowing in commuter lanes
at freeway speeds and the others still at least somewhat congested, there
would be further incentive to go skinny. The tax would not be wasted as the
$100 per month paid to lease these cars would return an investment to the
state that financed it. Of course all of the auto companies would have to
compete or lose a lot of business. This might create as big a change as the
Model-T did. If the model worked for CA or a city, it would probably be
copied all over the world. London, Mexico City, Paris, every major city in
the world could use a 4-fold increase in parking capacity and a 2-fold
increase in road and freeway capacity.
A smaller project could be accomplished with $200 million. That would build
about 10,000 cars. They would retail at $18,700 or lease at under $200 per
month. A business building 10,000 units per year could be started for as
little as $25 million.
Rick Woodbury Phone: (509) 624-0762
President, Commuter Cars Corporation Toll-free: (800) 468-0944
Doubling the capacity of freeways Fax: (509) 624-1466
Quadrupling the capacity of parking Cellular: (509) 979-1815
Zero to 60 in under 4 seconds
715 E. Sprague Ave., Suite 114 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Spokane, WA 99202 Web: http://www.commutercars.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sam Harper wrote:
> To own a $20,000 [ICE] two-seater sports car...
> you will have to pay... $673 per month.
> Pros - Gas is everywhere
> Cons - Polluting, supplies foreign nations with capital, expensive
>
> To own a $27,500 [EV two-seat sports car]...
> you will have to pay... $758 per month.
> Pros - some government money
> - HOV lanes with only one person
> - zero direct emissions
> - EV grins
> Cons - Lack of charging infrastructure
> - shorter range
We can argue about the exact numbers, but you have the gist of it right.
Driving an EV will cost more, but provides some side benefits that are
hard to put a pricetag on.
People who buy strictly on price are not your customers. In the short
term, EVs cost more to buy. They can save you money in the long term,
but most people simply don't think ahead. So, I think we have to GIVE UP
on ever getting the average person to buy an EV -- at least for the next
decade or so.
So, it would be better to focus on that list of Pros and Cons. What
features can an EV offer that are basically not available in ICEs? If
there are enough of them, and if you find the "magic feature" that will
change a person's mind, then you've made a sale!
Here are some other EV Pros and Cons I can think of, in addition to the
ones you listed:
Pros:
- drive something TRULY different (not the same car 100,000 other
people have)
- don't need to go to gas stations (refuel at home or work)
- fuel is very cheap (fill 'er up for $1; laugh at $2/gal gas)
- won't "run out of gas", stranding you someplace unpleasant (can
keep driving an EV at slower and slower speeds to get to an outlet)
- stop sending money to support brutal dictatorships
- get true muscle-car performance and economy at the same time
- instant heat / air conditioning (can even work while car is parked)
- have a car that you really can work on yourself
- never any starting problems in cold weather
- no gasoline, oil or antifreeze leaks in your garage or driveway
- no risk of fire or explosions from gasoline in accidents
- no tune-ups
- no oil or antifreeze changes
- no belts, air cleaners, exhaust system, or other costly repairs
- brakes last much longer (with regenerative braking)
Cons:
- have to replace the batteries every few years
- need a 2nd car for long trips
- harder to find repair shops
> Well this is what I think a Distortion Networks conversion would have
> to have: [snip]
> -A completely replaced interior (new plastics, new seats, Wet Okole
> neoprene seat covers for that cool feeling, a nice stereo (I'm thinking
> Eclipse and JL Audio) (give $2,000in labor)
> -New paint job (give $3,000 to an outside company)
These are all things that are the same as any ICE. The only reason to
replace all this stuff is if the particular buyer *wants* it done, and
will pay *extra* for it. If he wants (say) new upholstery or a better
stereo, let him take it to one of the aftermarket suppliers himself.
> -Lithium-Ion pack, say around 22kw capacity (give $8,000)
Nice if you can get it; but this is probably Unobtainium.
I hate to say it, but for a small start-up company, you pretty much have
to use a very conservative battery that has a proven track record and
good availability. The risks of using a high-tech battery are just too
high. That means lead-acid or nicad.
> -A nice fat PFC charger - think you can make me one for Lithiums?
The average customer doesn't even know what PFC is, and almost certainly
won't pay anything extra for it.
> -An automatic or CVT transmission ($500)
This is a design issue, not one for the sales brochure. You set the
desired performance, then pick the drive train to achieve it. It may or
may not need a transmission.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Christopher Zach wrote:
> Simple. Find the shunt or measuring frob, then put your charger just
> ahead of that.
>
> This is the same way the Dolphin determines SOC on the batteries;
> the MagneCharger simply taps in ahead of the shunt and wakes up the
> computer.
Except that the Prius computers assume there is no possible source of
charging except from the motor-generators. If they aren't supplying
current, then there should be zero charging current. If it does see
current, it sets off the alarms (thinking there is a ground fault, for
example).
When UC Davis modified a Prius to use a bigger pack of Ovonic batteries,
they ultimately gave up on trying to fool the computers, and just had to
ignore the alarms.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My inital thought would be to use a bond package. The state or city issues
bonds to finance the project, with the lease payments going to pay off the
bonds.
I've seen this done with toll roads, etc. as well as non-vehicle projects.
Dave
From: Rick Woodbury <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: EV List List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Tango Volume of Production Versus Cost per Unit
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 10:17:08 -0800
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Is that $ 2B mean that the Tango needs $ 2 Billion to get into mass
> production (for certification, crash testing, and assembly plant) ?
> What volume can be produced for that sizeable investment ?
Based on projections given to us by one of Lotus's past chief executives,
to
get the price down to $10,000 per Tango would require a production volume
of
about 100,000 units per year. Typically an automotive company spends over
$1
billion to set up such production. Without doing an in-depth study let's
guess that we could produce 150,000 Tangos for $2 billion dollars as a
single project. Let's assume that a community has the goal of reducing
traffic congestion. According to the Booze, Allen and Hamilton and UC
Berkeley studies, lane capacity increases from 2,000 cars per hour to 4,450
cars per hour by using a commuter car of Tango dimensions. Many rail
projects cost many times more than the $2 billion projected for this and
would have far less ability to reduce congestion. According to the Bureau
of
Transportation Statistics, principal means of transportation to work in the
US is as follows:
118,000,000 100.0% total workers
92,362,000 78.2% drive by themselves in a car
5,779,000 4.9% use public transportation
3,627,000 3.1% walk only
3,288,000 2.8% work at home
749,000 .6% use bicycle or motorcycle
These are just the highlights. The complete report is downloadable at:
http://www.commutercars.com/downloads/reports/meansOfTransportation.pdf
> Where can any state, especially CA, get that much money when it has a
> budget deficit of $ 35 Billion ?
I don't know. How do states buy commuter rail that costs 3 time as much or
more? Maybe if the voters in an area believed that the traffic congestion
could be eliminated by such an expenditure, they'd vote to increase
gasoline
tax to pay for it. If I lived in LA and believed that by paying an extra
$.50 a gallon for gasoline, I could drive freely without congestion, I'd
certainly do it. In 1991 13 billion gallons of gasoline were sold in CA
(the
most recent figures I have at hand). $.15 a gallon would fund $2 billion.
$.50 would fund $6.5 billion which would build about 600,000 Tangos. That
would be 10% of the multi-car households in CA. If the cars were offered to
the denizens of the most congested zip codes, a 30% density of commuter
cars
might be achieved. If this happened, a 3 or 4 lane highway could sacrifice
a
lane to be split in two for UNVs (Ultra-Narrow Vehicles). The UNV lanes
would only be at about 40% capacity, while the others would be either the
same or somewhat less congested. With the traffic flowing in commuter lanes
at freeway speeds and the others still at least somewhat congested, there
would be further incentive to go skinny. The tax would not be wasted as the
$100 per month paid to lease these cars would return an investment to the
state that financed it. Of course all of the auto companies would have to
compete or lose a lot of business. This might create as big a change as the
Model-T did. If the model worked for CA or a city, it would probably be
copied all over the world. London, Mexico City, Paris, every major city in
the world could use a 4-fold increase in parking capacity and a 2-fold
increase in road and freeway capacity.
A smaller project could be accomplished with $200 million. That would build
about 10,000 cars. They would retail at $18,700 or lease at under $200 per
month. A business building 10,000 units per year could be started for as
little as $25 million.
Rick Woodbury Phone: (509) 624-0762
President, Commuter Cars Corporation Toll-free: (800) 468-0944
Doubling the capacity of freeways Fax: (509) 624-1466
Quadrupling the capacity of parking Cellular: (509) 979-1815
Zero to 60 in under 4 seconds
715 E. Sprague Ave., Suite 114 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Spokane, WA 99202 Web: http://www.commutercars.com
_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Problem: I have no clue which way the motor turns!
I believe in normal (non-honda) conversions, the motor will turn CCW as
viewed from the transmission end of the motor. Hope this helps
Seth
Now, I know:
a) Honda driveshafts rotate counter of every other
vehicle.
b) I advance the brushes in the opposite direction of
--
QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION
http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/387.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have an electric 60's E-Z-GO cart and I think I put 90 weight in it a
few years ago, seems to be working just fine... :-)
Seth
On Sunday, February 23, 2003, at 11:39 AM, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
I wonder if there is a safe low viscosity lubricant I can use in a 40
year
old golfcart transaxle. 1960's vintage Laher three wheel cart. It is
a
beefy transaxle for such a small vehicle.........Lawrence
Rhodes.......Wonder what it is????? Do transaxles have markings and
such........
--
QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION
http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/387.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Where does the 1 of N decoder get its power from (to run the decoder and
to pull in the relay)?
Lee Hart wrote:
Here's what I proposed. There are N identical battery modules like this:
_______________
A+ _________|__/\/\______/__|____B+
to central | fuse . |
monitoring | . | to battery
system | fuse . |
A- _________|__/\/\______/__|____B-
| . |
| _______ . |
D+__________|_| |___ |
serial data | |1 of N | _| |
to select N | |decoder| _| |
D- _________|_|circuit|___| |
| |_______| |
|_______________|
Two wires go to each battery (B+ and B-). Then, a 4-wire cable "daisy
chains" to all the modules. D+ and D- are serial data to operate one of
N DPST relays in the modules. A+ and A- are the voltage of the selected
battery, to be measured by the central system. If the fuses and relays
in the modules are large enough, you can also load or charge the
selected battery via the A+ and A- lines.
The total number of connections in the battery box is N x 6. However,
the ones to the batteries are short (if the module is right at the
battery), and the rest of the connections are bussed.
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I also would like a copy, if possible. I would post them and then
could provide the links to folks so you wouldn't have to pass them
around individually.
On Sun, 23 Feb 2003 14:14:41 -0500, you wrote:
>Listers,
> I have some great military pics that I think nearly everyone on the
>list will agree with and like wholeheartedly. I don't have a web site to
>post them on but send me a blank e-mail and I'll paste the pics on them for
>you. If anyone likes them enough they can feel free to post them on any web
>site they might have. If you want to go that route I'll try to e-mail a .bmp
>image but they are kind of big in that form and I'm somewhat limited on how
>big the files are that I can send.
>
>John David
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Since the RAV4 EV can be owned and not just leased, (unlike the EV1,
Honda EV+, Think EV at present, etc.), and since it seems to be a
pretty good EV in many respects, I am wondering if anyone has given
any thought to using a RAV4 EV in a project to equip it with some
hybrid aspect.
Specifically, instead of trying to get too complicated, I was
wondering about loading a small diesel generator into the back of the
vehicle itself and using it to charge the batteries, while the vehicle
is in motion and being powered by the batteries. This might give the
vehicle some extended range without sacrificing too much performance
due to weight problems. Since it's already a four-seat small SUV,
perhaps there would be room for this.
Yes, I know, many EV fans would consider this the ruination of a
perfectly good EV, but grid-chargeable hybrids are something I at
least want to see researched, and they may turn out to have their good
qualities, such as (if well-done) superior mileage and range, both.
If the generator were powered by just a few gallons of 100% biodiesel,
and if the mileage were awesome, I think such a car could be
incredible.
Of course, I do not mean to imply disrespect for the costs or
challenges or pitfalls of such a project, just putting the idea out
there to mull over. One key I think would be finding a suitable
generator in terms of weight and power. Another would be determining
whether a battery management system and other electronics could manage
the problem of charging and discharging both at the same time. Even
if this is generally possible in some other vehicles, since the RAV4
might not have been designed for it, and since the batteries are of
considerable value, I'd wonder about that.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/Spec.jsp?make=Michelin&model=MXV4
www.michelinman.com
http://michelinman.com/assets/pdfs/doc_energymxv4plus.pdf
Someone is selling his take offs from his VW TDI for $300 for 4 195/65R15
They go for about $120 each normally.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/NonCGI/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=004049
Not light truck, but rated to 44 psi and ~ 1350lbs per corner in this
size, and they might fit some light trucks. And be "legal" to 5400lbs.
The web page for this tire mentions silica compounding and LRR
advantages when you mouse over the information icons (make sure you have
javascript and style sheets enabled)
http://michelinman.com/catalog/tires/energymxv4plus.html
I am not a Michelin salesman or anything, I just like them.
Seth
Jim Coate wrote:
>
> Um, I'm using 205/70R14 Michelin Energy MXV4 'GreenX' tires on my "light
> truck" (S-10 conversion that weighs in at about 4200 pounds). The 95H
> rating was actually one of the highest weight ratings for a 14" tire I
> could find, LRR or not (1521 pounds @ 44psi). And yes, I believe these
> were designed as LRR tires, although the web site is all changed around
> and the new pages don't mention anything about it. Unfortunately my stop
> & go city driving overshadows the LRR gains for most driving I do.
>
> Seth wrote:
> > Based entirely on the mileage I lost when I changed to a different tire,
> > I would say Michelin Energy (green MXV?) is a LRR tire. But it is a
> > passenger car tire, not light truck, if that matters. It also had modest
> > adhesion. It was also very quiet and balanced well.
> >
> > That is a non scientific data point.
> >
> > A note is that for medium duty trucks with wheels down to ~16.5", you
> > can get LRR tires. Check out www.michelintruck.com. Many are for 19.5"
> > and larger wheels, but some are pickup sized. So it appears that they
> > have an interest in LRR tires. THe X One series are a novel approach,
> > irrelevant as they may be to a pickup truck. They were quoting as much
> > as a 30% reduction in rolling resistance for some tires, reulting in 10%
> > better fuel consumption, at the last SAE Truck and Bus show.
> >
> > Seth
> >
> > Wilmer Hechanova wrote:
> >
> >> Part 1.1Type: Plain Text (text/plain)
> >
> >
>
> --
>
> _________
> Jim Coate
> 1992 Chevy S10
> 1970's Elec-Trak
> http://www.eeevee.com
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
NOT so, there is LOTS of eddy current losses in the back iron on the rotor.
Also the motor size is within the concept range of the ones I have played
with. Still there is going to be major thermal issues with 6000 rpm and
100Kw in that package.
I agree on the "paper" motor drive system. The motor always gets a lot
hotter in the real life abuse of a living EV. Since the motor rarely if
ever sees steady state highway driving once it leaves the dyno cell. In
city traffic you are on it or off it or heavy into regen. The speed of your
thermal scavenging is really important.
Lee Hart wrote:
> Rich Rudman wrote:
> >> Guess I'm a skeptic this morning.
>
> > Yea, my BS detector clipped on this also. Nice numbers, but the
> > motor cooling is a bit questionable. The controller weight is
> > really light also...
>
> They struck me as theoretical numbers, from someone who has yet to
> actually build a controller.
>
> > I will bet that the limit for an AC system will always be cooling
> > the rotor.
>
> No; if it has a PM rotor, there is negligible heat generation in the
> rotor.
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
> .
> > Data buss could also be a cheap light fiber, as in Otmar's proposed
> > system.
>
> You need to price out a "cheap" light fiber. Fiber optic systems are
> generally far more expensive than wire and connectors.
>
> .Otmar says they are getting REALLY cheap like $2 a end. I have to see to
> believe, but I hear and listen.
>
>
>
> > Data, Data, Data everywhere,
> > More than I can parse!
> > Somewhere out there is a Byte
> > that can save my Arse!!
> > The BMS's mantra.
>
> Ain't it the truth!
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just to clarify something, I'm not making them, I want to resell them.
Big difference, so please dont take your "from someone who has yet to
actually build a controller" because I haven't claimed to do so.
Please read first.
-Sam Harper
On Sunday, February 23, 2003, at 02:48 PM, Rich Rudman wrote:
NOT so, there is LOTS of eddy current losses in the back iron on the
rotor.
Also the motor size is within the concept range of the ones I have
played
with. Still there is going to be major thermal issues with 6000 rpm and
100Kw in that package.
I agree on the "paper" motor drive system. The motor always gets a lot
hotter in the real life abuse of a living EV. Since the motor rarely
if
ever sees steady state highway driving once it leaves the dyno cell. In
city traffic you are on it or off it or heavy into regen. The speed of
your
thermal scavenging is really important.
Lee Hart wrote:
Rich Rudman wrote:
Guess I'm a skeptic this morning.
Yea, my BS detector clipped on this also. Nice numbers, but the
motor cooling is a bit questionable. The controller weight is
really light also...
They struck me as theoretical numbers, from someone who has yet to
actually build a controller.
I will bet that the limit for an AC system will always be cooling
the rotor.
No; if it has a PM rotor, there is negligible heat generation in the
rotor.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard
Cohen
--- End Message ---
