EV Digest 2614
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: BMS cost (was Re: LIN bus link)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Chinese EV Not As Pictured
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Portland Area Dynamometer...
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Inspired Corporation's Product - Part 2 (long, but please read!)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Brush advance on Honda
by "Walker, Lesley R" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Evercell has reached cycle 352 tonight
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Inspired Corporation's Product - Part 2 (long, but please
read!)
by Lonnie Borntreger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: New Product - AC Drive System
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: What to look for in a battery charger?
by "Walker, Lesley R" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff
by "Crabb, David" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) signoff ev
by "Chad" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: New Product - AC Drive System
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Battery Review [in light of recent discussion]
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EV speed record, Bogus Silent Thunder Record, SCTA stuff
by Henry Deaton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) Re: Inspired Corporation's Product - Part 2 (long, but pleaseread!)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
18) Re: BMS cost (was Re: LIN bus link)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Battery torture testing.
by "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: SVR 14 batteries 4 sale SP17 Marathorn Nicads 4 sale
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
21) RE: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
22) Re: Battery Review [in light of recent discussion]
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Huh? (was: Lithium fire control...._
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Battery torture testing.
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Otmar wrote:
>
> > > > Data buss could also be a cheap light fiber, as in Otmar's proposed
> > > > system.
> > >
> > > You need to price out a "cheap" light fiber. Fiber optic systems are
> > > generally far more expensive than wire and connectors.
> > >
> > > .Otmar says they are getting REALLY cheap like $2 a end. I have to see to
> > > believe, but I hear and listen.
>
> No need to speculate, here are the details from Digikey.
>
> Phototransistor, FB121-ND $3.65 ea $2.37/100 IF-D92
> Emitter: FB118-ND $3.48 ea $2.25/100 IF-E91A
> I believe the fiber costs about $0.40/ foot in 100 ft rolls. Not from DK.
>
> They are certainly much more expensive than wire and connectors.
> I believe this is too expensive to put on one module on every
> battery, though it would be possible.
A proven HF transformer on a small toroid core, while not as sexy as
fiber, does isolation nicely. You only need 5-6 turns on the
primary and secondary, such a transformer is cheaper than IR optocouple,
and has a benefit of being bidirectional. Done right, practically
nothing to fail. Just something to consider.
Victor.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It has recently been brought to my attention that there is a web site
purporting to carry a news story about a high performance EV under
development in China. The site in question is:
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200112/17/eng20011217_86842.shtml
As you may recognize, the photo at the top of the story, although badly
distorted, is the electric Aztec built by Electro Automotive. This photo
was stolen from our web site and used without permission. Electro
Automotive and this car have absolutely no connection with any Chinese EV
project.
I have written to the web site via their contact form and requested that
they remove the photo, but they have not done so, nor have they
responded. Since this site seems to be getting picked up and referenced by
other web sites (including one in the UK), my only recourse is to try to
spread the information that this photo is being used without permission,
and that there is no connection whatsoever between the our company and car
and the Chinese project. If you come across any other links to this site,
please inform me so that I can try to correct the information.
Thank you.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Mark, I will consider this! Will talk to John if
he wants to participate.
Victor
Mark Farver wrote:
>
> A while back when I posted my dynomometer plots for the
> Metricmind/Seimens AC drive Ranger a number of Portland EVers asked
> where they could find the same equipment. I didn't have any suggestions
> then, but these folks are highly regarded on an import racing list I
> lurk on:
>
> http://www.matrixengineering.cc/dyno/rates.php
>
> I love to see the plots for the Zombie, or Victor's CRX... maybe OEVA
> would like to do a group night...
>
> Mark Farver
>
> --
> "The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of
> zeal, well-meaning but without understanding."
> -- Justice Louis O. Brandeis, Olmstead vs. United States
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lock Hughes wrote:
>
> > > -Lithium-Ion pack, say around 22kw capacity
>
> Fire supression system?
>
> Lock
I thought gasoline burns far easier than batteries, yet don't
see many fire extinguishers in ICEs. Wonder why.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
garry asked:
> Why wont you be able to drive it ?
Because it's designed to be driven by a skinny teenager, which
I am most certainly not. I wouldn't be able to get my fat
backside into the racing seat, even before they added the
rail that supports the steering wheel.
Did I point you at the pictures? I intended to.
If I forgot, the URL is
http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/lrw/solarcar.html
I have more recent pictures, just haven't thinned them down
for posting yet. I'll probably do that next month.
--
Lesley Walker
LRW_at_clear.net.nz or [EMAIL PROTECTED]
"[Hybrid electric vehicles] are self-sustaining,
as long as you keep putting gas in the tank."
--- James R. Healey, USA Today
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
Sheer is out of country until March 1 or so.
As I recall the Ac Accord is at Dave Clouds for some mechanical issues.
But Dave is shy to run it since 3 of the Evercells self discharged to
empty.
Dave is NOT going to be the one who fry the Evercells.
I am house sitting for Sheer, the Honda is here at his place all locked up
in the garage. It has not been driven or charged for 6 or 7 weeks.
I know that he removed the batteries that went flat and drove the car a bit.
We shall see what condition the remaining batteries are in when he gets
back. :-0
Roy LeMeur Seattle WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informational Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 2003-02-24 at 18:17, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Lock Hughes wrote:
> >
> > > > -Lithium-Ion pack, say around 22kw capacity
> >
> > Fire supression system?
> >
> > Lock
>
> I thought gasoline burns far easier than batteries, yet don't
> see many fire extinguishers in ICEs. Wonder why.
Because one is a known quantity that has been around people every day
for decades, and the other is a new technology. People that have no
problems living next door to refineries (even with open flames), would
not want to live within 100 miles of a nuclear facility.
Also, remember that gasoline was introduced at a time that people were
openly handling kerosine and other flammables, and were shoveling coal
diretly into burners, and etc. So it was no more dangerous than what
they had. Everyone since has just lived with it every day.
Lonnie
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
> Well, let me restate. There is SUPPOSED TO BE little or no changing flux
> in the magnets or back iron. Remember that the magnets and back iron are
> not laminated; they are just solid lumps of metal. If there is an AC
> flux, they look like a shorted turn, and get hot.
Could the rotor be made with ferrite (non-conductive) magnets?
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry, I left out some information and wasn't clear about some of it.
I think I need a little text file with all the information for pasting
in. A sort of mini-FAQ I suppose. :-)
Lee Hart advised:
> > Well, one recommendation for the charging regime was
> "charge as fast as
> > you can, then equalise all night".
>
> That's not a sensible algorithm for good battery life.
This is for a racing event. They only have to survive enough cycles
to get through the event with most of their capacity. That's about
10 cycles if we start with fresh batts at the start of the event
(at least two of the three packs will be fresh). If they're still
good after the event that's fine, but they may well get recycled
anyhow as it probably won't be worth shipping them home.
For testing leading up to the event, we'll probably have a week
between runs for charging so we can be nice to the batts.
> > We'll most likely be charging three 2kWh packs in parallel so maybe
> > it's not so fast for the individual batteries.
>
> No; that's pretty fast. 240vac x 15a = 3450 watts. Even with all three
> 24v packs in series, you're charging at as much as 47 amps.
The three packs that we'll use for the race will be either 48v or 60v
depending on what we can get that fits the rules.
The 24v pack is just what we're using for now because Exide gave us the
2nd-hand batts of the right weight. (Actually probably 22v because we
seem to have a bad cell)
It's still about the same amount of energy going into each pack though,
because the limit is the weight of lead.
Plus, we're far more likely to only have 10A outlets most of the time.
--
Lesley Walker
LRW_at_clear.net.nz
[EMAIL PROTECTED] until 17 March '03
"[Hybrid electric vehicles] are self-sustaining,
as long as you keep putting gas in the tank."
--- James R. Healey, USA Today
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> -----Original Message-----
> From: harsha godavari [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 5:02 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff
>
>
>There are two ways of looking at the project (1) Like a community
>service or working for your favourite politician, you do it volunterily
>and free of charge. After all you are working for a cause EVing the
>world.
>
>Or (2) like an entrepruener, band a small group,design and sell the
>design to developers. You can finance your self or look for funding from
>hundreds of organisations in the US (you can even approach the Gates
>Foundation - worst scenario..he can only trun you down)
this certainly would be a way for Bill to expand his empire..
for his investment..flop in a nice LCD touch screen.. running WinCE of
course...
for everyones radio.
You can have a nice bus to wire in added Foglamps, etc.. at a later date,
and
the program can know what to do with them when you buy the WinCE foglamp
module
$$for a upgrade price$$ .. and you can turn them on from the same screen.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
signoff ev
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>
> Any motor designer should know this, and design the motor (and drive
> electronics) so the flux in the magnet is DC.
>
> I have also seen cases where naive motor designers assumed perfect
> waveforms in the windings, and then naive controller designers assumed
> they could apply square waves. Motor works great; controller works
> great; but together, they burn up!
> --
> Lee A. Hart
Last case is the winner. 300 rpm Windmill turbines meets BLDC encoder
commutated Trapazoid wave forms at 10X designed power, and about 10X
rpm.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sam Harper wrote:
>
> Hey guys. As I have heard more horror stories, I'd like to continue my
> battery review discussion, but to a more direct "which is good, which
> is bad" point. Lets make a list:
> -Lead : Useable, but not real good range
> -Yellow Tops : Yet again, useable, with a little better range, and lots
> of experience
> -NiCad : Hard to find (add suppliers here), more costly, better range
> -NiMH : Hard to find (add suppliers here), more costly, better range
> -Li-Ion : BAD. Dont handle current well, too much voltage drop, fire.
> -Evercell : Alright, better range than Lead, but not tested
> -Zebra : What ever happened?
>
> -Sam
I'm bit going to defend LiIons, but this above is biased opinion
based on other opinions with no data attached.
How 'bout that:
Lead Acid: BAD: heavy, toxic, leaks, melted posts, needs watering,
most expensive per mile, requires watering, don't like deep discharges,
causes most back injuries, <insert your own here>
Yellow top: bit better (don't need watering but you pay for it),
rest is the same
NiCd: better: same as above but lighter and last forever, cheapest
per mile over life, recycling concern
NiMh - I'll take your pick
LiIon - Best Wh/weight, Cheap over life, tried on the vehicles OK.
Can be dangerous if abused or raced with but you must be an idiot
to do that.
Zebra: don't worry about it, you can't get it anyway.
As you can see, this above is also opinion and just as valid as
yours, because there is no data.
LiIons *can* be bad, so cab be PbA id abused beyond their ratings.
If you *know* you aren't suppose to use them at high currents,
why say they are bad since don't perform if you do?
You don't think that they are bad booting your laptop, do you?
Why? Because you use them according to that they're designed for.
I cruise at 35 mph on my 18 amps of current, no sags,
batteries are stone cold. Hard numbers and plots are on my site.
They sag more than I like if I floor it, but I don't drive like
that, so why is it an issue for me? If you drive like that,
well, welcome stick to PbA, but this doesn't mean LiIons are BAD.
Let's not draw conclusions before we prove something.
Some are willing to try, others are always waiting for someone
else. Some are whining they are not Bill Gates, others bite
a bullet and move ahead as far as they can afford.
Some are racing, others I know never drive on freeway because they
afraid.
Fine with me, and should be fine with you. Everybody is
different. So, where's your data? Collection of opinions
isn't the data.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Rodrick,
Why are you so upset with the SCTA?
For what its worth, in Silent Thunder's case I'd be more inclined to think
that someone misunderstood the SCTA's rules for electrics and decided that
it must be referring to battery weight instead of total vehicle weight. Of
course, you're also supposed to have a weight slip from a registered
vehicle scale to prove the EV qualifies for its class. I'd be interested in
seeing Silent Thunder's weight slip and SCTA log book.
BTW, before 1998 the SCTA EV classes were E I = total weight under 1499
lbs, E II = 1500 to 3499 lbs, and E III = 3500 lbs and over. So, no matter
what anyone may have said Silent Thunder was never legal for the E1 class.
Also, the SCTA has been around a long time and there are good reasons they
don't jump up and create new classes anytime somebody suggests it. I think
that building vehicles to run in a possible future class is a good way to
pay your dues and get respect in an organization, and thereby pave the way
for a new class.
In my case, I'm not that concerned if they never have a class for my
motorcycle. I'm mainly building my bike so I can enjoy that 3 to 5 miles of
flat-out full-on throttle chasing a narrow black line down the salt. What
could be better than that? Of course I have also been lobbying for new
electric motorcycle classes, too. Right now electric motorcycles are only
legal in the SCTA's motorcycle streamliner class, and building a
streamliner motorcycle is a much bigger investment in time and money than I
can make at the moment.
Henry Deaton
SF, CA
At 12:52 PM 2/18/2003 -0800, you wrote:
Actually what happened with the SCTA is that they changed horses in the
middle of the stream. The class 1/E record that "Silent Thunder" holds was
for its correct weight by their class system when it set the record. Then
they decided to go with the F.I.A. system of weight classes. A side note,
the worlds quickest electric motorcycle according to the F.I A. turned 15
something seconds in the quarter mile. Give me another break! Ed Rannberg
was turning 12s back in the early 80s. Last year a good friend of Ed's sat
in on the SCTA board meetings to try to get street classes for Bonneville
land speed racing to no avail. The SCTA says that if we build three electric
vehicles in the same non existent class and bring them to Bonneville that
they will consider making a class for them. Let's see now. Invest $35000.00
per vehicle for three vehicles, then transport them across country to
Bonneville, Then it rains and they cancel the event, turn around, go home
and come back again next year just in case you may get to run. Oh, and then
if you are lucky they will make a class the following year so that you can
come back again and try to set a land speed record if the weather holds and
you get to run that is. The SCTA has a totally different mind set than the
NHRA. The NHRA looks at electrics as more customers since they are a
business. In defense of the SCTA, they look at electrics as just more work
for them as they are an all volunteer organization. They do not get paid
more for more work. But I wish they would at least straighten out their
record keeping on their existing electric records. They are a big joke and a
disgrace to electric racing. They make the hard earned records meaningless.
A solution would be to start a new record keeping organization. Use their
rule books and their track and have your own classes. Similar to what we do
with NEDRA. They do have a good safety record and the rule book spells out
the safety regulations well. Any volunteers out there to start a new
organization?
Roderick
Roderick Wilde, President, EV Parts Inc.
Your Online EV Superstore
www.evparts.com
1-888-EV Parts (387-2787)
Phone: 360-385-7966 Fax: 360-385-7922
PO Box 221, 107 Louisa Street
Port Townsend, WA 98368
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Dymaxion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 11:44 AM
Subject: Re: EV speed record
> I heard they classed him like that so he would not have to compete
> with the 200+ mph streamliners. I guess they figured the electric
> land speed racer crowd is small enough no one would care?
>
> There is every class imaginable for gassers (around 100 classes), but
> only 3 for electric, only differentiated by weight.
>
> It would be nice if they at least had a street legal class, or
> allowed an "Electric" class for every existing class, or a voltage
> based classes or something. Maybe a letter asking for new classing to
> them would do it?
>
> I have more than academic interest, I live only 2 hours from the Salt
> Flats and am hoping to run my conversion-in-progress there some day.
>
> There is a 130 mph and 150 mph class for street legal cars -- not
> sure if that would count for an official record, but could get you an
> official time slip for bragging rights.
>
> --- Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I feel sorry for the ETCA if they are going to follow the lead of
> > the
> > SCTA. As far as I'm conscerned they have absolutely no credibility
> > and their electric vehicle records are worthless. Get them to send
> > you a copy of who holds what EV records. Find out what class they
> > have for "Silent Thunder", a car I campained first on the one mile
> > oval at Phoenix International Raceway and then at Firebird
> > International Raceway in road racing.Both tracks are located in the
> >
> > Phoenix Arizona area. We sold the car to Michael Murphy who had me
> > set it up and deliver it to Bonneville Salt Flats to set a land
> > speed
> > record. As I remember the car weighed in around 3200 lbs. with 336
> > volts of Optimas, a first generation Zilla and a single 9 inch
> > Advanced DC motor. On the first run we firballed the motor and
> > coasted through the traps 106 MPH. Bob Schneveis installed four 8
> > inch Advanced DC motors for Michael and I was on the pit crew the
> > following year when it ran 133 MPH as I remember. This was a
> > lisenced
> > street legal car. At the end of a run the brushes weren't even
> > warm.
> > I know because I stuck my finger on them before we towed the car
> > back
> > after the run. The main problem with the car going so slow was that
> >
> > it ran out of gearing before it even got to the beginning of the
> > timing line . There is still more in that car! When you look up the
> >
> > SCTA record on this heavy weight they will tell you it holds the
> > Class 1 record. Give me a break! Why don't you tell me that Dennis
> > Berube's car runs in the NEDRA 96 volt high school sedan division.
> >
> > Another NEDRA Outlaw
> > Roderick
> >
> > Roderick Wilde, President, EV Parts Inc.
> > Your Online EV Superstore
> > www.evparts.com
> > 1-888-EV Parts (387-2787)
> > Phone: 425-672-7977 Fax: 425-672-7907
> > 18908 Highway 99, Suite B
> > Lynnwood, WA 98036-5218
> >
> >
> > >The ECTA uses the Southern California Timing Association (SCTA)
> > >rules with a few minor changes. EV's are put into one of three
> > >streamliner classes, based on total vehicle weight:
> > >
> > >Class 1, under 1099 lbs (less than 500 kg)
> > >Class 2, 1100 to 2200 lbs (500 to 1000 kg)
> > >Class 3, over 2200 lbs (over 1000 kg)
> > >
> > >They also have some fairly stringent safety rules that I don't
> > think
> > >your average NEDRA-machine would meet. For example, your car will
> > >need at a minimum a roll bar or roll cage, a fire extinguishing
> > >system, and a competition seat-belt. The driver will need an
> > >SFI-rated suit, plus SFI-rated boots, and gloves. The specific
> > >requirements are based on the anticipated vehicle speed or the
> > speed
> > >of the class record.
> > >
> > >If you want to run with the ECTA, I'd recommend getting a copy of
> > >the rule book right away and also contacting someone on the ECTA
> > >technical committee to discuss your plans.
> > >
> > >So, while the speed for the record seems "low", I don't think you
> > >could just show up with a NEDRA/NHRA EV drag racing vehicle and be
> >
> > >able to compete. But, if you do make your machine ECTA-legal, I
> > bet
> > >you'd have a lot of fun running there. Just think, it's a 1.2 mile
> >
> > >long dragstrip!
> > >
> > >Henry Deaton
> > >(still working on my electric LSR motorcycle)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >At 10:03 PM 2/16/2003 -0800, you wrote:
> > >>It's looks like they make new class's as they need them, so it
> > should be
> > >>easy for some of those Power of DC racers, most EV transmissions
> > never see
> > >>fourth gear.
> > >>
> > >>www.lasvegasev.com
> > >>Richard Furniss
> > >>Las Vegas, NV
> > >>1986 Mazda EX-7 192v
> > >>1981 Lectra Centauri 108v
> > >>3 Wheel Trail Master 12v
> > >>Board Member, www.lveva.org
> > >>Las Vegas Electric Vehicle Association
> > >>
> > >>----- Original Message -----
> > >>From: "Seth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >>Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 6:09 PM
> > >>Subject: EV speed record
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> http://www.ecta-lsr.com/recordscars1.htm
> > >>>
> > >>> The East Coast timing association has an electric class, and
> > the 1 mile
> > >>> record is ~115 mph. I think there are a few people on the list
> > who could
> > >>> raise that a bit. I have heard is it an overgrown dragstrip
> > for a
> > >>> course, nothing like the salt flats, but it might be
> > relatively easy
> > >>> pickings for an EV drag car. I don't have the rule book, and
> > it isn't
> > >> > online (that I saw) though.
> > >>>
> > >>> Seth
> > >>> --
> > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >>>
> > >>>
> >
> >
> > --
> >
>
>
> =====
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
> http://shopping.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Why doesn't somebody try to do just that ?
On Mon, 24 Feb 2003 13:06:03 -0500 "Chris Tromley"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> billglic wrote:
>
> > Ok, so how many kick in the pants cars has AC Propulsion sold
> > ?????????
>
> Bill,
>
> It's my understanding that ACP has no desire to market the tZero.
> They've never tried. They don't care about selling cars, they want
> to
> sell drive systems to the OEMs. You can't blame them. They just
> want
> to focus on their area of expertise.
>
> The tZero is nothing but a demo platform for their drive system, one
> that's intended to grab attention. It was built with an existing
> kit
> car body on a purpose-built (and way too complex) tube chassis.
> I've
> stated before that performance buyers will put up with less in the
> way
> of creature comforts, but I consider functional doors and a roof to
> be
> rather basic.
>
> I seem to remember reading of a tZero being sold to an individual
> (who
> charges it with a huge PV array). That was likely a special deal,
> and
> maybe not entirely legal.
>
> Bottom line, if you marketed a fully certified sports car with the
> performance of the tZero, that was designed for profitable
> production
> instead of being a one-off, at around $50k, you couldn't build them
> fast
> enough.
> Chris
________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lonnie Borntreger wrote:
>
> On Mon, 2003-02-24 at 18:17, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> > Lock Hughes wrote:
> > >
> > > > > -Lithium-Ion pack, say around 22kw capacity
> > >
> > > Fire supression system?
> > >
> > > Lock
> >
> > I thought gasoline burns far easier than batteries, yet don't
> > see many fire extinguishers in ICEs. Wonder why.
>
> Because one is a known quantity that has been around people every day
> for decades, and the other is a new technology. People that have no
> problems living next door to refineries (even with open flames), would
> not want to live within 100 miles of a nuclear facility.
>
> Also, remember that gasoline was introduced at a time that people were
> openly handling kerosine and other flammables, and were shoveling coal
> diretly into burners, and etc. So it was no more dangerous than what
> they had. Everyone since has just lived with it every day.
>
> Lonnie
Precisely. So it's not that the batteries are dangerous,
it's that people *afraid* that they are because don't know any better.
The fact that they afraid and to justify the fear choose to
think that something is dangerous (and post their fears here), doesn't
make it so.
As Rich said,
Where's the data?
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris,
How many Sparrows have been sold?
I agree that you don't need to be huge to be profitable, and to
demonstrate that EVs really work.
The real question is: at what price will Joe Average buy an EV ?
and how many need to be produced in a given year to achieve that price ?
Menlo Park III,
Bill
On Mon, 24 Feb 2003 13:06:12 -0500 "Chris Tromley"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> billglic wrote:
>
> > That's all well and maybe good, but what does the business
> > plan tell you about a market for selling a hundred thousand
> > plus EVs and not just a few hundred sports cars ?
>
> Bill,
>
> One thing that I've never been able to figure out is why people
> think a
> car company *must* sell huge numbers of cars. It's like you need
> $billions in capital just to get started, or it won't work.
>
> Certainly we want to sell as many EVs as possible, but let's be
> real.
> No one will put up the kind of money necessary to immediately make a
> dent in today's ICE auto market. EVs are "unproven". The risks are
> too
> great. Won't happen.
>
> But there's nothing to keep a small company from putting an EV out
> there. Look at the tremendous progress Rick Woodbury has made.
> Certification is all that keeps him from being the first modern EV
> producer that actually *wants* to produce EVs and can do a decent
> job of
> it. If he can do it, others will follow. Hopefully someone else
> will
> make the attempt whether he makes it or not, having learned from his
> experience in the barriers to certification.
>
> Once you make the certification investment you will certainly need
> some
> volume to get it back. Not hundreds of thousands, just enough to
> keep
> you profitable. Which is fine, actually. Getting the general
> public to
> fully accept that EVs are OK, never mind a good idea, will take
> years.
> Given the sheer enormity of the automotive market, there will be
> plenty
> of early adopters to keep you afloat and let you grow as the market
> becomes more accepting.
>
> How many Sparrows have been sold? How many *could* they have sold?
> If
> the Corbin management had simply listened to reason, they'd be in
> great
> shape right now. You don't need to be huge to be profitable, and to
> demonstrate that EVs really work. Once you do that, more companies
> will
> follow.
>Chris
________________________________________________________________
Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
> The purpose of the switchable loads is not to balance during driving; it
> is to balance during charging, when AC power in being supplied. As each
> battery reaches full, you turn on its respective load resistor to bypass
> further charging current. Each battery has its own load resistor, so any
> number of them can be on at once. This is what the present Rudman
> regulators do.
Yes, I know how it functions and also not suggesting to balance
while charging. But to burn energy from 89 bypass resistors for
several hours waiting for one cell to come in balance seem a waste,
whether comes from the mains or not. Boosting one (or few) cells
*while* charging adds some complexity, but one just makes a decision.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, in the spirit of Bill's excellent post (You ain't got nothing to lose
Chris) I decided to try running the batteries down gently, then letting them
charge up.
Last night took tthe Prizm for a spin. 300 is the pack voltage, 250 is the
cut-off low voltage. On a fresh charge, the batteries can pull 150amps
before current is peaked by the controller (250 volts). After 9 amp-hours of
draw, the batteries could only provide 60 amp-hours max at 250 volts.
I then parked the car and left the heater on for 1.5 hours, drawing at a
rate of 7-8 amp-hours. At the end of this, the pack voltage was 280 under a
load of 8 amps. Then I put the car on full charge, and left it alone.
This evening I hopped in. Starting voltage was 321 (good), and dropped to
250 under a 160 amp load. I then drove the car around and around. 9
amp-hours and it was still going well (120 amp draw max). 12, 13...
Finally parked it at 15 amp-hours used with a ending current draw of 70 amps
max. The car is again sitting outside with the heater on; I'll check on it
in an hour.
It would appear that discharging the batteries down is allowing them to
"fill up" a bit deeper. I'll report back on tomorrow's results; 15 amp-hours
is more than I have gotten in months. Moral seems to be that the Prizm's
charger is not too hot for doing finishing charges; or that the Hawkers need
to be cycled. I really need to install the MagneCharger.
And if the pack fails during this, I will let it go and get a new one.
Chris
> In a way, it may be caused by the cold indirectly. Cold batteries
> require a significantly higher voltage to fully charge. If you haven't set
> your charger voltage a tad higher, (or if it is not temperature
> compensated) then you are not charging your batteries correctly.
>
> Check the A-hr capacity of other batteries, or of the whole pack
> using a dummy load like a section of baseboard electric heat. If capacity
> of the whole pack is low, you need "force" in the "missing" A-hrs by doing
> a one or more conditioning charges.
>
> Here is the conditioning charge recipe:
>
> 1) Charge the batteries up to 15 volts and wait until the current drops to
> 1 amp or less.
>
> 2) Put a constant current 4 amp charge for an hour.
>
> 3) Discharge the batteries to 10.5 - 11.0 volts and repeat 1 or perhaps 2
> more times until the capacity returns.
>
> This will kill them or cure them. This is because one of two
> things has happened. Either the batteries are simply worn out, or the
> negative plate has become sulfated because you are not doing the proper
> finishing charge. If they are simply worn out, the conditioning charge
will
> not help and may actually finish off the battery completely. If, on the
> other hand, they are sulfated, the conditioning charger will remove a good
> portion of the sulfation and the capacity will increase significantly.
>
> The conditioning charge is much more aggressive than the typical
> finishing charge of 2 amps for an hour. You would only do a conditioning
> charge like this once or perhaps twice in the lifetime of a battery
because
> of the water it uses. It uses up some water but it removes sulfation.
>
> If you think about it, the only way to get the missing A-hrs out
> is to put the missing A-hrs back in. You are missing 30 A-hrs. If each of
> the two or three conditioning charges helps, do a few 2 amp finish charges
> until the capacity levels out. You have 30 A-hrs to make up, so it won't
> happen all at once.
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have lowered the price on the new svr14 batteries they are now $15ea.10
minium. I also have 375 SP17 nicad cells.SP is Marathons desc.for
superpower.They were used to start helicopter turbines.Each cell was ck.an
meet mfg.specs for ah.discharge.Links and cases included.$2000.00 + shipping
Dennis Berube 6023777583
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A little over 300 Sparrows built and sold. The problem is they oversold -
more than were built, so a number of buyers have been waiting 1-2 years for
their EV. Great commuter vehicle!
-Ed Thorpe
~3,000 miles of commuting in 2003, Sparrow
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 2/24/03 4:34 PM
Subject: Re: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff
Chris,
How many Sparrows have been sold?
I agree that you don't need to be huge to be profitable, and to
demonstrate that EVs really work.
The real question is: at what price will Joe Average buy an EV ?
and how many need to be produced in a given year to achieve that price ?
Menlo Park III,
Bill
On Mon, 24 Feb 2003 13:06:12 -0500 "Chris Tromley"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> billglic wrote:
>
> > That's all well and maybe good, but what does the business
> > plan tell you about a market for selling a hundred thousand
> > plus EVs and not just a few hundred sports cars ?
>
> Bill,
>
> One thing that I've never been able to figure out is why people
> think a
> car company *must* sell huge numbers of cars. It's like you need
> $billions in capital just to get started, or it won't work.
>
> Certainly we want to sell as many EVs as possible, but let's be
> real.
> No one will put up the kind of money necessary to immediately make a
> dent in today's ICE auto market. EVs are "unproven". The risks are
> too
> great. Won't happen.
>
> But there's nothing to keep a small company from putting an EV out
> there. Look at the tremendous progress Rick Woodbury has made.
> Certification is all that keeps him from being the first modern EV
> producer that actually *wants* to produce EVs and can do a decent
> job of
> it. If he can do it, others will follow. Hopefully someone else
> will
> make the attempt whether he makes it or not, having learned from his
> experience in the barriers to certification.
>
> Once you make the certification investment you will certainly need
> some
> volume to get it back. Not hundreds of thousands, just enough to
> keep
> you profitable. Which is fine, actually. Getting the general
> public to
> fully accept that EVs are OK, never mind a good idea, will take
> years.
> Given the sheer enormity of the automotive market, there will be
> plenty
> of early adopters to keep you afloat and let you grow as the market
> becomes more accepting.
>
> How many Sparrows have been sold? How many *could* they have sold?
> If
> the Corbin management had simply listened to reason, they'd be in
> great
> shape right now. You don't need to be huge to be profitable, and to
> demonstrate that EVs really work. Once you do that, more companies
> will
> follow.
>Chris
________________________________________________________________
Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
Only $9.95 per month!
Visit www.juno.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sam Harper wrote:
Hey guys. As I have heard more horror stories, I'd like to continue my
battery review discussion, but to a more direct "which is good, which is
bad" point. Lets make a list:
- Flooded lead-acid: Heavy but cheap, don't like high currents.
Recycling available everywhere (as this batttery is used in all ICE cars
trucks, etc)
- Sealed lead-acid, AGM construction [Yellow Tops]: Heavy, not cheap,
like high currents, easy to recycle as above.
- [Flooded] NiCad: lighter, better range, like high currents. Easy to
*find* (SAFT), hard to obatin due to high cost (and hurdles to qualify
for warrenty). Recycable, but need to ship back to SAFT.
-NiMH : Hard to find (add suppliers here), more costly, better range
Easy enough to find (SAFT) but very pricey.
-Li-Ion : BAD. Dont handle current well, too much voltage drop, fire.
No particular recylcing methods in place... although not "toxic" still
would clog landfills. Largely untested.
- NiZn [Evercell] : Alright, better range than Lead, but not tested
No particular recylcing methods in place... although not "toxic" still
would clog landfills. Apprently have nasty self-discharge habits.
-Zebra : What ever happened
who?
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 12:04 PM 2/24/03, you wrote:
Bill Dube, I think I will watch you install these Lithium batts. on your drag
bike and hear of a great sucess before I will put them on the Current
Eliminator. Dennis Kilowatt Berube
Huh?
I WISH I had Li-Ion cells to put in the bike. That's as close as
it has come.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Two things might be happening: 1) the batteries are warming up and providing
more capacity because of temperature. 2) The batteries are suffering from
"storage latency" where they have been inactive for so long, the chemicals
are "lazy" and not reacting quickly.
I would continue the process you have started until you get no more capacity
then I would put them on a "one amp charge until the voltage stops rising"
equalization. I don't know if you have the resources to do this, but you
might borrow someone else's charger to do it.
The combination of the two seems to wake up sleepy batteries.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 5:57 PM
Subject: Battery torture testing.
> Well, in the spirit of Bill's excellent post (You ain't got nothing to
lose
> Chris) I decided to try running the batteries down gently, then letting
them
> charge up.
>
> Last night took tthe Prizm for a spin. 300 is the pack voltage, 250 is the
> cut-off low voltage. On a fresh charge, the batteries can pull 150amps
> before current is peaked by the controller (250 volts). After 9 amp-hours
of
> draw, the batteries could only provide 60 amp-hours max at 250 volts.
>
> I then parked the car and left the heater on for 1.5 hours, drawing at a
> rate of 7-8 amp-hours. At the end of this, the pack voltage was 280 under
a
> load of 8 amps. Then I put the car on full charge, and left it alone.
>
> This evening I hopped in. Starting voltage was 321 (good), and dropped to
> 250 under a 160 amp load. I then drove the car around and around. 9
> amp-hours and it was still going well (120 amp draw max). 12, 13...
>
> Finally parked it at 15 amp-hours used with a ending current draw of 70
amps
> max. The car is again sitting outside with the heater on; I'll check on it
> in an hour.
>
> It would appear that discharging the batteries down is allowing them to
> "fill up" a bit deeper. I'll report back on tomorrow's results; 15
amp-hours
> is more than I have gotten in months. Moral seems to be that the Prizm's
> charger is not too hot for doing finishing charges; or that the Hawkers
need
> to be cycled. I really need to install the MagneCharger.
>
> And if the pack fails during this, I will let it go and get a new one.
>
> Chris
>
>
> > In a way, it may be caused by the cold indirectly. Cold
batteries
> > require a significantly higher voltage to fully charge. If you haven't
set
> > your charger voltage a tad higher, (or if it is not temperature
> > compensated) then you are not charging your batteries correctly.
> >
> > Check the A-hr capacity of other batteries, or of the whole
pack
> > using a dummy load like a section of baseboard electric heat. If
capacity
> > of the whole pack is low, you need "force" in the "missing" A-hrs by
doing
> > a one or more conditioning charges.
> >
> > Here is the conditioning charge recipe:
> >
> > 1) Charge the batteries up to 15 volts and wait until the current drops
to
> > 1 amp or less.
> >
> > 2) Put a constant current 4 amp charge for an hour.
> >
> > 3) Discharge the batteries to 10.5 - 11.0 volts and repeat 1 or perhaps
2
> > more times until the capacity returns.
> >
> > This will kill them or cure them. This is because one of two
> > things has happened. Either the batteries are simply worn out, or the
> > negative plate has become sulfated because you are not doing the proper
> > finishing charge. If they are simply worn out, the conditioning charge
> will
> > not help and may actually finish off the battery completely. If, on the
> > other hand, they are sulfated, the conditioning charger will remove a
good
> > portion of the sulfation and the capacity will increase significantly.
> >
> > The conditioning charge is much more aggressive than the
typical
> > finishing charge of 2 amps for an hour. You would only do a conditioning
> > charge like this once or perhaps twice in the lifetime of a battery
> because
> > of the water it uses. It uses up some water but it removes sulfation.
> >
> > If you think about it, the only way to get the missing A-hrs
out
> > is to put the missing A-hrs back in. You are missing 30 A-hrs. If each
of
> > the two or three conditioning charges helps, do a few 2 amp finish
charges
> > until the capacity levels out. You have 30 A-hrs to make up, so it won't
> > happen all at once.
> >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
