EV Digest 2615
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Energy policy pics
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Inspired Corporation's Product - Part 2 (long, but please read!)
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: What to look for in a bettery charger?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: EVI ICS 200-B charging unit
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: ampabout
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Rudman Mark I what busts loose.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Battery Review [in light of recent discussion]
by "Bryan Avery" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Waterproffing and insulating regulators and such.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) [Fwd: Re: EVI ICS 200-B charging unit]
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Q for Mark Farver
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: LRR Revisited
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: BMS cost (was Re: LIN bus link)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: New Product - AC Drive System
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: What to look for in a battery charger?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: New Product - AC Drive System Hi RPM's
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: New Product - AC Drive System Hi RPM's
by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Battery Review [in light of recent discussion]
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: BMS cost (was Re: LIN bus link)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Waterproffing and insulating regulators and such.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RE: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Energy policy pics
by murdoch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: LRR Revisited
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
It still asks me for my login and password. How do you suggest I get to the
web page?
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "murdoch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 9:03 AM
Subject: Re: Energy policy pics
> all right then:
>
> thumbnails:
> http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/energyproductionpolicy/lst
> individual photos:
>
http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/energyproductionpolicy/vwp?.dir=/&.src=
gr&.dnm=badcvn71.jpg&.view=t&.done=http%3a//photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/en
ergyproductionpolicy/lst%3f%26.dir=/%26.src=gr%26.view=t
>
http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/energyproductionpolicy/vwp?.dir=/&.src=
gr&.dnm=stennfly.jpg&.view=t&.done=http%3a//photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/en
ergyproductionpolicy/lst%3f%26.dir=/%26.src=gr%26.view=t
>
>
> I created the group you see in order to have a place to discuss
> general energy policy issues, particularly when discussions in such
> places as EV-areas swayed from the topic, as can often happen. I am
> not trying to advocate joining or anything like that. I'm pretty sure
> I succeeded in turning off the thing that you have to be a member to
> view the pics.
>
> MM
>
> On Sun, 23 Feb 2003 14:14:41 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >Listers,
> > I have some great military pics that I think nearly everyone on the
> >list will agree with and like wholeheartedly. I don't have a web site to
> >post them on but send me a blank e-mail and I'll paste the pics on them
for
> >you. If anyone likes them enough they can feel free to post them on any
web
> >site they might have. If you want to go that route I'll try to e-mail a
.bmp
> >image but they are kind of big in that form and I'm somewhat limited on
how
> >big the files are that I can send.
> >
> >John David
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 2003-02-24 at 17:17, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Lock Hughes wrote:
> >
> > > > -Lithium-Ion pack, say around 22kw capacity
> >
> > Fire supression system?
> >
> > Lock
>
> I thought gasoline burns far easier than batteries, yet don't
> see many fire extinguishers in ICEs. Wonder why.
>
Really? Huh... I always keep at least one fire extinguisher in my
cars. I guess you must be right though, when I was going to the
insurance auctions about 5% of the cars there were "total burn", nothing
left but burned up, rusty metal.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 2003-02-24 at 17:34, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Chris,
> How many Sparrows have been sold?
> I agree that you don't need to be huge to be profitable, and to
> demonstrate that EVs really work.
You aren't using Sparrows as a success story are you? Corbin isn't
anywhere close to breaking even on those and at the current rate never
will.
I don't think he has even grossed 1/2 of what he spent on R&D yet.
My hat's off to Corbin, he is trying to make a difference (and this
isn't the first time) but he certainly isn't making a profit.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lesley;
You have a few decisions to make about your charging process:
1. Is weight important or are you driving a five ton truck for the support
vehicle? If weight is an important factor then you will need to pay for
something light weight. Heavy things are cheaper and available surplus
because someone bought something lighter to replace their heavy charger.
2. Is someone responsible for battery charging and will they be available
full time to watch the battery on charge? Dumb chargers require smart and
alert operators. A smarter charger requires less intervention of the
operator. If you have someone who can be trusted to always be there
controlling the charger, you can use a much dumber controller since the
operator supplies the brains.
3. Is charge time important? If charge time is important, then you need an
efficient and powerful charger. If you are operating from a current limited
AC source and charge time is important, then power factor becomes important.
4. How picky are your batteries? Flooded lead acid use excess water if
overcharged. Lithium batteries have been reported to have burned when
overcharged. If the battery is forgiving, you can make more mistakes before
the pack is damaged.
Example:
If charge time is important and weight is not important, then a dump charger
might be appropriate. Drag racers use this method to get back to the staging
lanes quickly.
If 1) you have all night to charge the batteries, 2) you are on a tight
budget, and 3) nobody is willing to stay up all night with the batteries,
You could put together a charger for each pack using some variacs with some
voltage cutoff circuits to limit the end voltage. The variacs are commonly
available and the voltage cutoff circuit is simple to build. I have a
schematic of one on the Manzanita Micro website at
http://www.manzanitamicro.com/chreg3.kdf. It takes the Kinko's file prep
tool to display the file. With the variacs, you can control the charge
current and stay within the available current. The voltage cutoff circuit
will allow you to let them run all night and have fully charged batteries in
the morning.
If you want the schematic in a more common format, I can convert it later
this week.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lesley Walker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 4:00 AM
Subject: What to look for in a bettery charger?
> Okay, I know that Rich's PCFxx chargers are the ideal :-) and any day
> now I will be asking EV Parts to get me a quote for shipping one to my
> side of the planet.
>
> I also have heard from Steve Downing about Switchtec chargers.
>
> Aside from that, I need to look for some local options for battery
> chargers for the Sunrace vehicle. I already know some things:
> * Mains input is 240v 10A or maybe 15A if we're lucky.
> * We will need to put a total of 6-8 kWh into the three packs at the
> maximum rate we can get out of the mains (up to 3.6 kVA)
> * Nominal output volts ranging from 24v (existing test pack) to 60v
(likely
> maximum pack size for this car).
> * We want the charging to be self-managing as far as reasonably
> possible
>
> So my question is, what am I looking for in terms of control features?
> adjustable current limit, and auto shut-off at a preset voltage I guess.
> Do we need any other features to help with equalising and stuff?
>
> Batteries will most likely be AGM if that matters.
>
> --
> Lesley Walker, Wellington, New Zealand
> LRW at clear.net.nz
> "Do you like cat?"
> "Yes, I quite like cats."
> "Leg or breast?"
> Neverwhere, by Neil Gaiman
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It seems this self promotion was sent out to other
email addresses besides Will's. The beginning bid
is $1200. The buy it now is set for $1500. There
is a 800# encase his unit needs repairs.
A new AVCON powerpak is about $1000
(but I hear they are raising their prices)
http://geocities.com/evcharging/images/avconpowerpak.jpg
An evi DS-50 is $1800 if you buy it from SMUD. More
if you buy it outside of SMUD's realm (through Georgia
Power)
http://www.geocities.com/evcharging/images/ds-50.jpg
I do not recommend the evi ics-200. It has too much
circuity 'not' to give power. It complains, and has
a hissy fit with any charger that is not power factor
corrected. Only the charger that the now unavailable
production EVs used, or a PFC charger from
manzanitamicro.com will work on an ics-200.
The AVCON powerpak and DS-50 do not have this
circuitry to complain and not give power. Both work
well with PFC or non-PFC chargers. I have tested
them with a zivan NG5, PFC-20, and PFC-50. An
AVCON powerpak and DS-50 operate like on a breaker.
If you really want an AVCON, I recommend the AVCON
powerpak. Or if you want to spend more and wait for
delivery, the DS-50. Both will work fine with 220 VAC
chargers. The powerpak is larger but flatter. The
DS-50 is more of a box.
...
But with CARB dropping EVs, the automakers
fat-n-happy with the president's support (getting
their campaign fund's worth), and no new public
AVCONs being installed (least not in my area),
why would you want an AVCON?
The biggest failure I have seen on public chargers
came from vandalism. AVCON male handles pried
out, side guides broken off, and the handle cord
yanked out of its case. I have seen inductive
paddles that have had their cords yanked, and the
paddle burnt by cigarette lighters to the point
where the plastic has melted and the paddle won't
insert.
Where are you going to use this AVCON? At home?
A 14-50 is much less costly and easier to install
http://geocities.com/evcharging/images/14-50evcharging.jpg
Perhaps the EV community needs to bring back the
evi mcs-100 EV charging head
http://geocities.com/evcharging/images/mcs100wall.jpg
The mcs-100 was a small wall or post mountable
box that had a 14-50 outlet. The 220VAC power (two
hots and a ground) would not be available unless a
signal between the unused neutral and ground was
sensed to engage the power relay.
A very simple resistor and diode circuit was all
that was needed to turn on the power at the 14-50
outlet. The unit also has a 5-20 duplex outlet for
120 VAC charging
http://geocities.com/evcharging/images/5-15p.jpg
14-50's have been used with multiple insertions in
all weather conditions by RV parks. They work well.
http://geocities.com/evcharging/images/14-50p.jpg
But the automakers did not want a low cost solution
that would let EVs begin and grow. Automakers are
liability concerned, so they went with the expensive
ics-200 AVCON and the even more expensive inductive
(star trek) units.
Since the mcs-100 works, and works well, the EV
community should consider bringing it back. It is
cheap, it is the common 14-50 outlet that RV parks
use, yet has simple (kiss) circuity to keep vandals
from getting power.
evi does not sell the mcs-100 any longer. The box is
not that hard to make. The hp Santa Rosa (now
Agilent) did not buy an evi ics-100. They saw what
it was doing and their facilities department made
their own (for their own use).
At some point the public AVCON units will need repair.
Those repairs may become hard to come by or more
expensive than the host wants to pay.
Even sooner, there will be no EVs on the road to use
the majority of public inductive charging heads.
Since CARB and automakers do not care anymore, we
should move toward a simple KISS solution using a
14-50 outlet like the mcs-100.
If we have a low cost, nil maintenance conductive
EV charging head, then replacement of AVCON or
inductive units with a 14-50 unit could be a
cheaper solution.
Watts your opinion?
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Today after being turned down for another job, I
gave up and headed South on Hwy 101 to Cupertino.
But at only 15 miles of my 50 mile pack, my emeter
started blinking that my pack had dropped to 120
volts.
That is not good when you have a 132VDC pack.
My first thought is, OK, perhaps the pack was not
charged. Nope. I fully charged it.
Was it my sizzling-hot battery cables? Nope. I
already changed out the hot-n-toasty ones. the rest
are cool to the touch (normal).
Hmmm ... So, I safely sub-speeded my way to a private
charging spot which I have permission to use.
I didn't plug in right away. I had been recently
noticing a shorter, and shorter range. Now it was
at a point where I had to figure this out.
I turned my electric heater on, not that I was cold,
but I wanted to put a 20 amp load across my pack while
I measured each battery's voltage.
Most were 6 volts or above. One in front and four in
the rear were between 3 to 5 volts.
My water is fine. I water regularly, and had just
watered the pack a week ago. I only used 1 gallon of
distilled water for 22 US145s (that's good for such big
batteries).
Hmmm ... I think I have found some defective batteries.
I connected the ics-200 charging head to my AVCON
adaptor (available on the eaaev.org merchandise page)
and ran the 208VAC power through a 10-3 extension
cable to my PFC-50.
With a pack voltage of 109, I was pushing 50 amps DC
into my pack, while drawing 30 amps AC. The pack voltage
slowly raised to 140 and then nursed off the charger
for an hour and half.
I put 50 ahs into my pack raising the pack voltage to
153.5 VDC. So these weak batteries have reduced their
capacity from 100 down to 50? That's not good.
I unplugged and got my errand done. On my way home, the
unusual rain down pour had me worry enough to stop at
Otmar's in Palo Alto and mooch another 10 ahs.
2 miles from home, my emeter wacked out again, and I was
not down to 120VDC again.
I will call my battery supplier tomorrow, and see when
I can get replacements for my weak batteries.
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was looking over what was left of my Mark I supply and it seems the IRF
248,I (Diode symbol?) R9248(9), 9G 2W or 9E 6L on the positive side and the
22uF Cap on the neg. side are the two most likely parts to blow out on this
reg. I have managed to repair a couple of regs by replacing these parts. I
even watched them blow up. Anyone had a simular experience with these Rev C
regs. I was noticing that I had to push some of the resistors to get them
to register. Might that have been some laquer on the wires or do flakey
resistors act like this? It might be a while before Rich can repair my regs
or send me new ones. Anybody got some mark ones in the bay area they want
to trade or sell? Lawrence Rhodes.........I am babysitting the pack now.
Not fun...............
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 5:10 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Battery Review [in light of recent discussion]
I cruise at 35 mph on my 18 amps of current, no sags,
batteries are stone cold. Hard numbers and plots are on my site.
They sag more than I like if I floor it, but I don't drive like
that, so why is it an issue for me? If you drive like that,
well, welcome stick to PbA, but this doesn't mean LiIons are BAD.
Victor,
Do you have any data from the li-ion batteries you are testing
on your site? Just wondering about this sagging you are referring to.
How much of an issue would this really be for a 320-340V pack of
Li-Ions?
Also, did you get my email from last week regarding obtaining a copy of
the motor drawing and specs? Can you give me the measurements for the
bolt hole in the end of the shaft?
Regards,
Bryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've had more trouble just brushing contacts on the thirty regulators I use
to keep my pack balanced. It has destroyed a lot of regs. I was wondering
if it might be a good idea to use some of that paint on insulation on the
component leads of my regulators. It would be some work and you would have
to keep it off anything that got really hot but I was thinking it would
water proof and insulate the connections for better dependabilty. Anyone
done this on bare boards? Just a thought. Lawrence Rhodes.....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The MCS-100 looks nice to me. Any charging infrastructure would be nice
here on the east coast, but especially one that has an ordinary plug as
the price of admission.
Its a little hard to tell from the picture, but is there a third outlet
in the middle and some sort of on/off at the top? Ideally it would have
a reset available right on the box, rather than tripping a breaker in a
basement somewhere which will never get reset. I'd hate to be plan on
getting power somewhere only to arrive and find it was off and no one
around to fix it.
Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Perhaps the EV community needs to bring back the
> evi mcs-100 EV charging head
> http://geocities.com/evcharging/images/mcs100wall.jpg
>
> The mcs-100 was a small wall or post mountable
> box that had a 14-50 outlet. The 220VAC power (two
> hots and a ground) would not be available unless a
> signal between the unused neutral and ground was
> sensed to engage the power relay.
>
> A very simple resistor and diode circuit was all
> that was needed to turn on the power at the 14-50
> outlet. The unit also has a 5-20 duplex outlet for
> 120 VAC charging
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You've probably said this before, but... what type/quantity of batteries
are you using and what type of range are you getting with your truck?
[I tried writing off-list but kept bouncing]
Mark Farver wrote:
> Metricmind/Seimens AC drive Ranger
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 12:39 PM
Subject: Re: LRR Revisited
> On 24 Feb 2003 at 8:24, Mark Hanson wrote:
>
> > the tire pressure is what makes it LRR and how much
> > pressure it can tolerate. -
>
> That's a significant part of it, but rubber compounding and belt design
> (sidewall flex) are also important. A true LRR tire will always beat a
> conventional tire at the same inflation pressure for this reason.
But by how much, a fraction of a percent or real measurable MPC increase?
>
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
> switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
> thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden (Akron OH USA) wrote:
> I may be wrong -- I'm no MBA! -- But I think the way to get EVs
> into the market is through a nonprofit corporation. Nonprofits
> receive significant tax advantages
Nonprofits don't pay taxes because they don't make money. The tax
benefits go to those who contribute (donate money to) to the nonprofit.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> A proven HF transformer on a small toroid core, while not as sexy
> as fiber, does isolation nicely. You only need 5-6 turns on the
> primary and secondary, such a transformer is cheaper than IR
> optocoupler, and has a benefit of being bidirectional. Done right,
> practically nothing to fail. Just something to consider.
Magnetic coupling works fine. But when the cost of the driver circuit
for it is included, opto usually wins on cost. Magnetics work best when
the signal to be coupled is already AC, or where power needs to be
transferred, or for other special case applications.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>
> Lee Hart wrote:
>
> > Well, let me restate. There is SUPPOSED TO BE little or no changing flux
> > in the magnets or back iron. Remember that the magnets and back iron are
> > not laminated; they are just solid lumps of metal. If there is an AC
> > flux, they look like a shorted turn, and get hot.
>
> Could the rotor be made with ferrite (non-conductive) magnets?
Sure -- but they usually want the highest possible flux density, to get
the highest possible torque. The fashionable way to do this is neodymium
magnets, which are conductive.
For reference, the other way to do it is use ferrite magnets, and run
the rpm much higher to get the horsepower per pound back up. Ferrite,
and even ironless rotor motors have been built past 100,000 rpm.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Walker, Lesley R wrote:
> This is for a racing event. They only have to survive enough cycles
> to get through the event with most of their capacity.
Well... a stupid question. Why use rechargeables at all? Lithium primary
batteries have the highest energy density. Just use 'em and replace 'em.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 10:15 AM
Subject: Re: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff
> David Roden (Akron OH USA) wrote:
> > I may be wrong -- I'm no MBA! -- But I think the way to get EVs
> > into the market is through a nonprofit corporation. Nonprofits
> > receive significant tax advantages
>
> Nonprofits don't pay taxes because they don't make money. The tax
> benefits go to those who contribute (donate money to) to the nonprofit.
> --
Sounds like a plan! The Electric Vehicle Foundation, an outfit to
manufacture electric vehicles. Non profit, like all those outfits that went
before it, BUT, as a tax writeoff to those who " Invest" in it.Sorta like
donating to the PBS radio, or other charities, they could run " Fund drives"
Begathons, as you may.You could be a " Member in the Foundation, and donate
a bit, to help them get a new model on the road. Maybe get a break on a new
model, like cups an' T shirts from PBS, 'Cept the new car would be REALLY
useful.
Downside, It wouldn't happen in this political climate. The existing
auto builders would scream, that they were being discriminated at by tax
free competition, but enough Greenies could argue that the Foundation was
really a Public service,above the ugly profit motive, and hence a Good
Thing. Hell! Isn't cleaning up the air and cutting back on oil use a good
thing? Good argument, like the EPA isn't a blue chip outfit, ether. Or the
DMV or post office, or Amtrak, for that matter.The Interstate Highway
System, far as I know, isn't paying any dividends to shareholders. But all
of the latter DO provide a useful service to the nation. Dispite arguments
of passengers in a stranded train, no food, heat or lites, or sitting in
traffic for hours, because of a multicar pileup, visable from earth
satalites.
Right now, listening to PBS, the guy on the Radio used Segway, as an
synonom for a useless gimick, on Rap in the Classroom, program, yu may have
heard it?? But it sorta is scary how a variation of an EV has been turned
into a part of the language. Sigh.I havent REALLY been listening, but Segway
perked up my ears.Gunna switch it to WMNR our other classical station for
some nice classical music.That's better!
Guess we, the EV community could be a catalist to pull something off.
Don't know HOW, fighting a in-place system. Other ideas?? Good thread here?
Whatdoya think?
Another nonprofit outfit
Bob
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
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--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 10:44 AM
Subject: Re: New Product - AC Drive System
> Snip!>
> For reference, the other way to do it is use ferrite magnets, and run
> the rpm much higher to get the horsepower per pound back up. Ferrite,
> and even ironless rotor motors have been built past 100,000 rpm.
> -- Hi Lee an' All;
Had to break in here! 100k rpm! Geez! What FOR? The gearbox would far
outweigh the motor to the point of " ;Why Bother" And if it came apart,
would make nice schrapnal! Scary rpm's!!
Sorry had to ask. Dental drills, maybe?
Bob@ 2kRPM's or so.
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> You aren't using Sparrows as a success story are you? Corbin
> isn't anywhere close to breaking even on those and at the
> current rate never will. I don't think he has even grossed
> 1/2 of what he spent on R&D yet.
>
> My hat's off to Corbin, he is trying to make a difference
> (and this isn't the first time) but he certainly isn't making
> a profit.
Hi Pete,
I only mentioned the Sparrow because Corbin has succeeded in putting
hundreds on the road. If they're not a financial success, well that's
their fault.
My point is that if they hadn't been so bull-headed about how the car
was designed, they'd be fat & happy right now. The Sparrow could have
been built with proven parts and laid out so it wouldn't roll at will.
It would have been just as much an attention-getter, just as functional
and safer. For no more money. Probably less - they would have avoided
chewing up man-years of engineering time finding and fixing controllers.
I have no doubt the cost of developing the Sparrow II was forced upon
them at least in part due to the high frequency of rollovers in the
original.
I do give Corbin a lot of credit for trying something new and marketing
an EV for sale to the public. That's a huge risk that takes enormous
effort to pull off. I just wish for what could have been - a
responsible, profitable company making quality EVs that people want to
buy.
Chris
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We have a variable speed 3PH AC grinding spindle (for ID grinding) that runs
from a slow speed of 30,000 RPM to a max of 120,000 RPM. I do not know what
kind of motor it is but it is pressurized with filtered and dried air, and
cooled with chilled water.
I think dental drills are more like 300,000 or 400,000 RPM air turbines
running on air bearings.
Andre' B. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
If something cannot be defined, it does not exist.
Isaac Newton
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Bob Rice
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 8:59 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: New Product - AC Drive System Hi RPM's
<< snip >>
Had to break in here! 100k rpm! Geez! What FOR? The gearbox would far
outweigh the motor to the point of " ;Why Bother" And if it came apart,
would make nice schrapnal! Scary rpm's!!
Sorry had to ask. Dental drills, maybe?
Bob@ 2kRPM's or so.
--- End Message ---
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Crabb, David wrote:
> this certainly would be a way for Bill to expand his empire..
> for his investment... flop in a nice LCD touch screen... running
> WinCE of course... for everyones radio.
(I'm going to hate myself for suggesting this...)
There have been endless jokes about what cars would be like if they were
built like PCs. *PLEASE* don't post any more!!!
Nevertheless, the PC has become a commodity item, and I dare say a
majority of the people reading this are using one. In part, it's because
of the cheap easy availability of parts and software, and a sufficiently
open architecture so things can be changed.
Car shows are full of totally impractical cars that simply illustrate
some idea taken to its logical extreme. The "ultimate" SUV, or
"ultimate" sports car, etc.
So... let's think about what you would get if you "morphed" a desktop PC
into a car. (Of course it would be an EV -- who ever heard of a
gasoline-powered computer?) Here are some guesses:
- Parts choices made on the basis of worldwide availability.
(What's the cheapest, most common tire in the world? Use that.)
- Chassis designed to allow rapid replacement of virtually any part.
(motor, batteries, controller, etc. as easy to swap as a hard drive,
memory, video card).
- Cheap, throwaway design. Nothing built to last. Only intended to work
a few years and then get replaced.
- While you can "just drive it", hacking by a knowledgeable user is
needed to get any significant performance out of it. (Comes configured
as an NEV in "grandma" mode, but can be hot-rodded).
- Bus oriented: can add batteries, bigger controller, etc. as easily as
expanding memory or hard drives in a PC.
- Negligible concern with appearance; just a few non-structural beige
trim panels form the outside skin.
- Rely HEAVILY on existing off-the-shelf PC technology: If there's
a way to do it with a PC, do it! Dashboard is a computer monitor.
PC essentially controls everything (controller, charger, heater,
radio, lights, etc.). Handlebars for steering, with keyboard
mounted to it.
What I'm envisioning is something not very car-like at all -- more like
a motorcycle, or the Swiss Twike, maybe.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sam Harper wrote:
>> As I have heard more horror stories, I'd like to continue my
>> battery review discussion, but to a more direct "which is good,
>> which is bad" point. Lets make a list:
>> -Lead : Useable, but not real good range
>> -Yellow Tops : Yet again, useable, with a little better range,
>> and lots of experience
>> -NiCad : Hard to find (add suppliers here), more costly, better range
>> -NiMH : Hard to find (add suppliers here), more costly, better range
>> -Li-Ion : BAD. Dont handle current well, too much voltage drop, fire.
>> -Evercell : Alright, better range than Lead, but not tested
>> -Zebra : What ever happened?
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> this above is biased opinion based on other opinions with no data
> attached.
I agree with Victor. Such a list is completely subjective. The only
practical way to provide such data is in the form of objective facts.
Instead of saying "heavy", give the KWH/weight ratio.
Instead of "too much voltage drop", give the KW/weight ratio.
Instead of "cheap" or expensive", give the $/KWH.
This is the only way to compile data that means anything to anyone but
yourself.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> The purpose of the switchable loads is not to balance during driving;
>> it is to balance during charging, when AC power in being supplied.
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Yes, I know how it functions and also not suggesting to balance
> while charging. But to burn energy from 89 bypass resistors for
> several hours waiting for one cell to come in balance seem a waste,
> whether comes from the mains or not. Boosting one (or few) cells
> *while* charging adds some complexity, but one just makes a decision.
Yes, it is a waste. But it's the same waste you get when balancing by
deliberate overcharging. But with bypass resistors, at least the
batteries are spared the heating and gassing, so you extend battery
life.
Also, remember this was proposed as an el-cheapo balancing system. Not
the best, but one that could be cheap enough so people would actually
buy and install it.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> I've had more trouble just brushing contacts on the thirty regulators
> I use to keep my pack balanced. It has destroyed a lot of regs.
> I was wondering if it might be a good idea to use some of that paint
> on insulation on the component leads of my regulators.
First, I must say that anyone who puts a naked circuit board on or near
a battery is asking for trouble. They must be packaged and insulated to
withstand the environment!
The first Rudman regulators I used were installed in a closed plastic
box. The internal load resistor was removed, and I installed a tail lamp
socket. A tail lamp was plugged into that socket, external to the
plastic box.
This worked quite well, except when a regulator latched fully on for
long periods of time. The cheap plastic box would deform right next to
the hot lamp.
If you want to keep the resistor, then I would put the board in a metal
box. I would heatsink the resistor to the metal box, but use an
insulating washer and hardware so the box was not "live" to the battery
terminals.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
billglic wrote:
> Why doesn't somebody try to do just that ?
> On Mon, 24 Feb 2003 13:06:03 -0500 "Chris Tromley"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > Bottom line, if you marketed a fully certified sports car with the
> > performance of the tZero, that was designed for profitable
> production
> > instead of being a one-off, at around $50k, you couldn't build them
> > fast
> > enough.
Exactly my point. It's possible with current technology and it would
sell. It would put EVs on the map, because non-greenies would be
interested in it. Several people on this list could have a production
prototype available in a year (I include myself in that group). Or
sooner, depending on funding.
There are existing companies who, with the addition of a few key people,
would be able to do this as well. Generally speaking however, those
companies have an ICE mentality.
We're not likely to find someone with the capability *and* the bucks to
pull it off. So it comes down to finding someone with vision and
funding.
Chris
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It hadn't occurred to me that yahoo might not allow viewing by folks
who don't have a yahoo account at all (most of my friends do, as it is
free). I'm a little reluctant to put them on my own personal page, as
they're not 100% something I agree with. I wonder if someone else
could.
On Mon, 24 Feb 2003 22:17:02 -0800, you wrote:
>It still asks me for my login and password. How do you suggest I get to the
>web page?
>
>Joe Smalley
>Rural Kitsap County WA
>Fiesta 48 volts
>NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "murdoch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 9:03 AM
>Subject: Re: Energy policy pics
>
>
>> all right then:
>>
>> thumbnails:
>> http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/energyproductionpolicy/lst
>> individual photos:
>>
>http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/energyproductionpolicy/vwp?.dir=/&.src=
>gr&.dnm=badcvn71.jpg&.view=t&.done=http%3a//photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/en
>ergyproductionpolicy/lst%3f%26.dir=/%26.src=gr%26.view=t
>>
>http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/energyproductionpolicy/vwp?.dir=/&.src=
>gr&.dnm=stennfly.jpg&.view=t&.done=http%3a//photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/en
>ergyproductionpolicy/lst%3f%26.dir=/%26.src=gr%26.view=t
>>
>>
>> I created the group you see in order to have a place to discuss
>> general energy policy issues, particularly when discussions in such
>> places as EV-areas swayed from the topic, as can often happen. I am
>> not trying to advocate joining or anything like that. I'm pretty sure
>> I succeeded in turning off the thing that you have to be a member to
>> view the pics.
>>
>> MM
>>
>> On Sun, 23 Feb 2003 14:14:41 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>> >Listers,
>> > I have some great military pics that I think nearly everyone on the
>> >list will agree with and like wholeheartedly. I don't have a web site to
>> >post them on but send me a blank e-mail and I'll paste the pics on them
>for
>> >you. If anyone likes them enough they can feel free to post them on any
>web
>> >site they might have. If you want to go that route I'll try to e-mail a
>.bmp
>> >image but they are kind of big in that form and I'm somewhat limited on
>how
>> >big the files are that I can send.
>> >
>> >John David
>> >
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> A true LRR tire will always beat a conventional tire at the same
>> inflation pressure for this reason.
Mark Hanson wrote:
> But by how much, a fraction of a percent or real measurable MPC
> increase?
A conventional tire has a rolling resistance of about 0.01. That means
it takes 1% of the load on the tire to roll it down the road (10 lbs of
horizontal force to push a tire with 1000 lbs of vertical load on it).
A low rolling resistance tire can be as low as 0.006. That means 6 lbs
to roll it with 1000 lbs of load -- 40% less energy.
Note that most conventional passenger car tires fall somewhere in
between. Most car manufacturers supply at least moderately low rolling
resistance tires so they can maximize EPA mpg figures. The only tires
with rolling resistances of 0.01 (or worse) are super-cheap tires, or
appearance tires made to look good, or performance tires designed to
maximize traction.
But rolling resistance is not the only factor. Wind resistance and drive
train efficiency are usually larger factors than rolling resistance.
Thus, a 40% reduction in rolling resistance might only net you a 4% gain
in range (or mpg), because tire rolling resistance was only 10% of the
total energy being used to move the car down the road.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
