EV Digest 2617
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Non-profit EVs (was: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff)
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Battery Review [in light of recent discussion]
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: What to look for in a battery charger?
by Lesley Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: What to look for in a bettery charger?
by Lesley Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: EVI ICS 200-B charging unit
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Re: Battery Review [in light of recent discussion]
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Battery torture testing.
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) EV on EBAY
by "Trotman Simpson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Rick Woodbury - cost of certification? (was: RE: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff)
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff
by Adam Kuehn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Standard Public Charging Station
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: New Product - AC Drive System Hi RPM's
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: New Product - AC Drive System
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Charging infrastructure
by Nick Carter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Non-profit EVs (was: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff)
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Battery Review [in light of recent discussion]
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Playing what if....
If I was trying to set up a nonprofit company to produce EVs, how would
I ever reach consensus as to what we should produce? 4-door sedan?
Pickup truck? 1/2 width (Tango) cars? We'd never get past AC vs DC to
even argue about battery choices :-)
If I win the lottery and start a private company, I can play dictator
and pick a path and start building... no need to impress anyone until
the product is together and ready to sell.
In other words, how would I get enough people to believe in *my* vision
for an EV to donate money to the non-profit start-up even though not
*their* exact vision of an EV?
David Roden (Akron OH USA) wrote:
I still say, consider going nonprofit. If you don't have to worry about
^ever^ creating a profit to divide among your investors, you can concentrate
on design instead of stalling the investors for yet another 6 months.
Nonprofits can also qualify for grants and raise money directly from the
public through contributions, and get some significant tax advantages.
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tim Clevenger wrote:
*************
> How about a kit car?
>
http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/columns/2000/November/200011
_columns_webster_factoryfive.xml?page=1
I'm not saying that this particular kit is anywhere near practical--just
an
idea. The Cobra kit in the article is about $12,000 in single quantity,
including front suspension and steering rack. Rear gear and drivetrain
comes from a 5.0 Mustang. I realize that the lack of a roof makes this
thing impractical from a wind resistance point of view, but at 2,300
pounds
including the Mustang engine and tranny, it could make a light, fast EV.
*************
Wow. Over 500 kits sold to customers who are willing to build their own
car. Imagine how many they could sell if they were turn-key.
I've thought about the same approach. I can't see using a Cobra body.
It's been done to death, and I'm not sure electric power fits well with
the hairy-chested, wind in the face, bellowing exhaust image the Cobra
conjures up. Maybe something in the MacLaren/Lola section? I wonder if
Factory Five does a Cobra Daytona coupe?
The key to actual production is still certification. If you sell
complete cars, they aren't kits. They must be certified. How much does
certification cost? That tells you how many you have to sell how soon,
before your money runs out.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, I stand corrected... my writing was confusing for just as Lee said
we need to talk specific numbers. I had particular GC batteries in my
mind and meant it as a relative statement. (and I use insulated tools
around these batteries since I don't want direct proof of the wallop :-)
Although I'm not sure how to quantify things like recyclebility (is that
a word?) or degree of establishedness of the technology.
Nawaz Qureshi wrote:
Hi:
I disagree with "lead acid batteries.....don't like high currents". Were
this the case, they will not be in use by the billion as starting batteries.
Even the deep cycle types can deliver a wallop, albeit at a somewhat
lower rate than the SLI types. The calcium alloy grid batteries (sealed
or flooded) have the highest high rate capability.
Sincerely
Nawaz Qureshi
Jim Coate wrote:
Sam Harper wrote:
Hey guys. As I have heard more horror stories, I'd like to continue
my battery review discussion, but to a more direct "which is good,
which is bad" point. Lets make a list:
- Flooded lead-acid: Heavy but cheap, don't like high currents.
Recycling available everywhere (as this batttery is used in all ICE
cars trucks, etc)
- Sealed lead-acid, AGM construction [Yellow Tops]: Heavy, not cheap,
like high currents, easy to recycle as above.
- [Flooded] NiCad: lighter, better range, like high currents. Easy to
*find* (SAFT), hard to obatin due to high cost (and hurdles to qualify
for warrenty). Recycable, but need to ship back to SAFT.
-NiMH : Hard to find (add suppliers here), more costly, better range
Easy enough to find (SAFT) but very pricey.
-Li-Ion : BAD. Dont handle current well, too much voltage drop, fire.
No particular recylcing methods in place... although not "toxic" still
would clog landfills. Largely untested.
- NiZn [Evercell] : Alright, better range than Lead, but not tested
No particular recylcing methods in place... although not "toxic" still
would clog landfills. Apprently have nasty self-discharge habits.
-Zebra : What ever happened
who?
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
--
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
> Walker, Lesley R wrote:
> > This is for a racing event. They only have to survive enough cycles
> > to get through the event with most of their capacity.
>
> Well... a stupid question. Why use rechargeables at all? Lithium primary
> batteries have the highest energy density. Just use 'em and replace 'em.
The rules say you have to use lead-acid. Plus, how much would it cost
to do that? This is a high school team I'm working with.
--
Lesley Walker, Wellington, New Zealand
LRW at clear.net.nz
"Do you like cat?"
"Yes, I quite like cats."
"Leg or breast?"
Neverwhere, by Neil Gaiman
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Joe, much appreciated. I don't have Kinko but I'll look around
for it and if it's either free, demo ware or not too expensive I'll get it.
You're dead right on all three counts, we have all night to charge, we're
on a very tight budget indeed (applying for grants every time we need to
buy something) and we don't want to actually PLAN for someone to be
up all night every night for over a week, although we could probably
roster it if we really had to.
Joe Smalley wrote:
> 1. Is weight important or are you driving a five ton truck for the
> support vehicle?
Support vehicles will have to be rented, I guess one of them will have to
be at least capable of carry the two spare packs, tools, luggage for the
team etc, so maybe a small truck.
> 2. Is someone responsible for battery charging and will they be
> available full time to watch the battery on charge?
Quite possibly, there's one kid on the team who won't be driving (except
maybe on downhill stretches) 'cos he's a bit larger than the others, and it
would be good to have a meaningful job for him.
> 3. Is charge time important?
Only to the extent that the three packs must be ready to use each
morning by the time we have to get to the start line.
> 4. How picky are your batteries?
They'll most likely be AGM. The rules say they have to be sealed,
presumably for safety reasons.
> If 1) you have all night to charge the batteries, 2) you are on a tight
> budget, and 3) nobody is willing to stay up all night with the
> batteries, You could put together a charger for each pack using some
> variacs with some voltage cutoff circuits to limit the end voltage. The
> variacs are commonly available and the voltage cutoff circuit is simple
> to build. I have a schematic of one on the Manzanita Micro website at
> http://www.manzanitamicro.com/chreg3.kdf. It takes the Kinko's file prep
> tool to display the file. With the variacs, you can control the charge
> current and stay within the available current. The voltage cutoff
> circuit will allow you to let them run all night and have fully charged
> batteries in the morning.
>
> If you want the schematic in a more common format, I can convert it
> later this week.
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lesley Walker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 4:00 AM
> Subject: What to look for in a bettery charger?
>
>
> > Okay, I know that Rich's PCFxx chargers are the ideal :-) and any day
> > now I will be asking EV Parts to get me a quote for shipping one to my
> > side of the planet.
> >
> > I also have heard from Steve Downing about Switchtec chargers.
> >
> > Aside from that, I need to look for some local options for battery
> > chargers for the Sunrace vehicle. I already know some things: * Mains
> > input is 240v 10A or maybe 15A if we're lucky. * We will need to put a
> > total of 6-8 kWh into the three packs at the maximum rate we can get
> > out of the mains (up to 3.6 kVA) * Nominal output volts ranging from
> > 24v (existing test pack) to 60v
> (likely
> > maximum pack size for this car).
> > * We want the charging to be self-managing as far as reasonably
> > possible
> >
> > So my question is, what am I looking for in terms of control features?
> > adjustable current limit, and auto shut-off at a preset voltage I
> > guess. Do we need any other features to help with equalising and
> > stuff?
> >
> > Batteries will most likely be AGM if that matters.
> >
> > --
> > Lesley Walker, Wellington, New Zealand
> > LRW at clear.net.nz
> > "Do you like cat?"
> > "Yes, I quite like cats."
> > "Leg or breast?"
> > Neverwhere, by Neil Gaiman
> >
>
--
Lesley Walker, Wellington, New Zealand
LRW at clear.net.nz
"Do you like cat?"
"Yes, I quite like cats."
"Leg or breast?"
Neverwhere, by Neil Gaiman
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bruce,
I don't know where you get some of your information, but I just called Avcon
Corp/Meltric (http://www.evavcon.com/) a few minutes ago and talked with
Jodi (800-433-7642). Current pricing for their PowerPak, with anywhere from
12' to 21' cable, is $380 plus freight. Significantly less than $1000.
They will also fax quotes and specs on request.
-Ed Thorpe
-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce EVangel Parmenter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 11:27 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: EVI ICS 200-B charging unit
It seems this self promotion was sent out to other
email addresses besides Will's. The beginning bid
is $1200. The buy it now is set for $1500. There
is a 800# encase his unit needs repairs.
A new AVCON powerpak is about $1000
(but I hear they are raising their prices)
http://geocities.com/evcharging/images/avconpowerpak.jpg
An evi DS-50 is $1800 if you buy it from SMUD. More
if you buy it outside of SMUD's realm (through Georgia
Power)
http://www.geocities.com/evcharging/images/ds-50.jpg
...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 24 Feb 2003 at 16:13, Sam Harper wrote:
> -Lead : Useable, but not real good range
> -Yellow Tops : Yet again, useable, with a little better range, and lots of
> experience
There are some problems here. For one thing, YTs ^are^ lead batteries.
Perhaps you mean "flooded lead acid" for the first entry and "AGM" for the
second one.
The range issue is not so clear cut; it depends on the vehicle and driving
style. For a given weight, a flooded battery will typically give you ^more^
range at modest driving speeds and acceleration than an AGM will. An AGM
will do better where current demands are very high.
> -NiCad : Hard to find (add suppliers here), more costly, better
> range
"Better range" -- true if qualified: Nicads have higher specific energy (55
wh/kg versus 35 wh/kg), so you could more correctly say they provide more
range for a given mass of batteries.
They and all alkaline chemistry batteries have more advantages than you
list.
- They tolerate cold weather much better than lead
- They can be left in any state of charge indefinitely
- Their voltage stays flatter during discharge than lead batteries'.
- Cycle life (of nicads anyway) is appreciably longer than that of lead
batteries of any type.
-NiMH : Hard to find (add suppliers here), more costly, better range
See my comments above for nicads. NiMH have most of their advantages and
with high-quality manufacturing may be able to approach their cycle life.
Right now they don't, but time will tell.
> -Li-Ion : BAD. Dont handle current well, too much voltage drop, fire.
What a strange thing to say. BAD? There is certainly more work to be done
before they're ready for use in consumer EVs (or even hobbyist EVs). But
please, let's not dismiss this promising battery chemistry.
You might also mention Lithium Polymer, which also aren't quite ready for EV
use but also show promise.
> -Evercell : Alright, better range than Lead, but not tested
What do you mean, "all right"? Do you include these grudgingly? For
goodness sake, why?
To be clear, Evercell is not a chemistry, it's one company attempting to
commercialize NiZn in EV-suited sizes. Nickel-Zinc probably has
considerable potential. Evercell fails to make them usable and reliable for
us, perhaps someone else will.
-Zebra : What ever happened?
I take it you mean Sodium Nickel Chloride chemistry. I believe Victor has
recently posted some information about that.
Here's part of a post from 1997 which describes the then-current state of
things in batteries. While some chemistries have changed, costs differ, and
some chemistries such as NiZn aren't included, it contains some valid and
useful information on basic issues. (What's sad is how little things have
really changed since then.)
= + = + = + = + = + = + = + = + = + = + = + = + = + = + = + = +
Lead-Acid
The lead-sulfuric acid system has almost reached its limit in terms of
performance. Nevertheless, it is an attractive and proven system. The cost
is attractive, about $150 per Kw-hr. Power density, in advanced, sealed
batteries, already equals the advanced USABC goal. Energy density, however,
falls far short, but for many applications, it may supply entirely adequate
range. Cycle life is about 500 cycles, which is shorter than for most other
systems.
Nickel-Cadmium
Ni-Cd batteries provide better range than lead-acid, and cycle life is
better if batteries are well managed. The system has been largely supplanted
by Nickel-metal-hydride. Cadmium is a poison and battery disposal is a
problem. Cost is about $350 per Kw-hr. However, nickel cadmium is still an
attractive alternative to lead-acid when life cycles are considered. Various
sources credit nickel cadmium with a life of 800 to 2000 cycles, compared to
about 500 for lead-acid.
Zinc-Bromine
This system, promoted by a small company in Massachusetts, Powercell
Corporation, is known as the "Wave(tm)" or "Zinc-Flow(tm)" system. It
utilizes a liquid cathode (catholyte) and a liquid anode (anolyte), stored
in small tanks adjacent to the reaction cells. Although the published energy
and power densities are not impressive, Powercell claims double the range
and triple the payload capacity of lead-acid batteries.
Sodium-Nickel Chloride (Zebra)
Zebra, a subsidiary of Daimler-Benz, has developed a highly sophisticated
power system, consisting of battery power pack, insulation and
encapsulation, and battery and thermal management all in one package. It's
therefore a bit unfair to compare energy and power per kilogram with other
systems, since we're comparing batteries against a complete system. So the
Zebra's position on our chart should probably be a bit higher, although we
don't know exactly how to make the comparison.
An interview with Dr. Arnold van Zyl of Zebra alleviated our concerns about
safety. Although the the Zebra battery operates at elevated temperatures,
270-350 C., and contains liquid sodium, it should not be compared with the
sodium-sulfur battery, which has dangerous and corrosive reaction products.
The Zebra battery has been subjected to violent and penetrative crash tests,
with no release of liquid sodium. The reaction products (aluminum and common
salt) are not corrosive, and there is no pressure buildup during mixing of
the reactants. Zebra makes a virtue of the need for a cooling system for the
battery, since the heat can be used in winter to heat vehicle interiors.
Zebra's capacity is now 500 batteries per year, with major markets being
Daimler-Benz in Germany and Ford in the U.S. In volume production, a
complete system might sell for about $9,000, with major applications being
electric automobiles and minibuses.
Zinc-Air
Both Electric Fuel Corporation and Kummerow AG are developing Zinc-air
batteries. The zinc-air battery is not a rechargeable battery in the
conventional sense. It is "mechanically recharged" by physically replacing
the zinc anode after the previously installed anode has been converted to
zinc oxide. The zinc-air battery also has some of the attributes of a fuel
cell, since the cathodic material is oxygen obtained from ambient air, and
so is continually supplied from an external source, like the reactants in a
fuel cell are. Spent anodes are reprocessed in a central facility. The
recovered zinc is then cast into new anodes and shipped to the equivalent of
"filling stations" which replace spent anodes.
The zinc-air battery has the highest energy density of all the batteries
shown in our graph. But it also has the lowest power density. At EVS-14, EFC
personnel said this was not a problem; a Deutsche Post mail van was able to
climb steep hills and keep up with city traffic with no problems. But at an
earlier interview this year with Hans Kummerow at Alameda Naval Air Station
in California (during the record breaking distance run of 1043 miles on a
single charge), Dr. Kummerow said yes, the power is limited by the diffusion
rate of oxygen through the "air cathode", and zinc-air batteries might have
to augmented by higher powered batteries or perhaps ultracapacitors.
The zinc-air battery seems to have its greatest potential for use in fleets,
or in less developed countries where there is not an extensive electric
power grid, or in Asian cities to replace the small "tuk-tuks", which emit
lots of pollution from 2-cycle engines.
Nickel-Metal Hydride
AT EVS-14, it was surprising how many companies were producing or developing
NiMH batteries. Energy Conversion Devices, Inc. (ECD) of Troy, Michigan
holds the basic patents. Besides ECD's subsidiary, Ovonic Battery Company in
the U.S., European companies included VARTA and SAFT. Asian companies at EVS-
14 included Yuasa (Japan), The Gold Peak Group (Singapore, Hong Kong,
Beijing), and GS (Japan). And Ultra-Force Battery Company of Burbank,
California is working with DAUG, a research consortium of Daimler-Benz and
Volkswagen to produce NiMH batteries.
The NiMH battery is more than the successor to nickel-cadmium; it combines
high energy density and good power density with good cycle life, making it
the current favorite for electric vehicles. Cycle life may increase to up to
2000 cycles in the near future. The current disadvantage is high cost, over
$1500 per Kw-hr, but this is sure to decrease substantially as production
and competition increase.
Manufacture of NiMH batteries is metallurgically complex, which leads to
high cost until processes are optimized and scaled up. In addition the
positive electrode is not pure nickel; it contains a substantial amount of
cobalt, which is expensive. the negative electrode consists of hydrides of
chromium, titanium, and zirconium in a nickel matrix. These raw materials
are not exceptionally expensive, but the processing is complex, involving
powder metallurgy techniques to bond hydride powders to a nickel wire mesh.
So the future looks good for NiMH; costs are currently high, but they can
only come down.
Lithium-ion
VARTA, one of Europe's largest and oldest battery companies, makes both
lithium-ion and NiMH batteries. VARTA considers Li-ion to be the most
promising rechargeable battery technology of the future, quoting the high
energy density, both gravimetric and volumetric.
The system has several variants. In all cases, the anode is carbon and the
electrolyte is LiPF6 in an organic carbonate solution. But the cathode can
be LiCoO2, LiNiO2, or LiMnO2 or an alloy containg various amount of cobalt,
nickel or manganese. Cobalt, as mentioned before, is expensive, although
Nissan/Sony say it can be recycled.
The Nissan Altra EV was taken on a ride 'n drive by some fellow EVS-14
attendees who happen to be of the tire-squealing persuasion. They were quite
impressed by the Altra's acceleration. And the Altra EV is a big car, a big
comfortable station wagon! The Sony-developed batteries in this car used
LiCoO2 cathodes, which is not the least expensive material for cathodes. So
this was clearly a demonstration vehicle, meant to give impressive
performance. In the future, we'll probably see manganese substituted for
cobalt, as manufacturers learn how to make the substitution without
sacrificing too much performance.
The Li-ion system appears to be flexible and adaptable to design variations,
depending upon mission. On our diagram we show very high power Li-ion
batteries meant for hybrid EVs, and lower power batteries meant to give
greater range to pure EVs.
There is room for a lot more develpment activity here, and we can expect to
see the Li-ion performance envelope shifted further upwards and to the
right.
Lithium-Polymer Battery (LPB)
The LPB is the only battery on our diagram which exceeds the advanced USABC
goal, with regard to energy and power densities.
The LPB has been under development for nearly twenty years, with accelerated
development during the last four years by 3M and Hydro-Quebec.
To a materials engineer, the most fascinating battery described at EVS-14
was the lithium-polymer battery. The LPB and the Zebra are the only
batteries which use metallic alkali metals as anode materials. During
operation of the Zebra, the sodium in the battery is in the liquid state,
but in the LPB, the lithium, which has a higher melting point, is in the
solid state.
For both these batteries, safety could be a concern, since sodium and
lithium are very reactive elements, and can spontaneously catch fire and
burn in air. In the case of the Zebra battery, it appears that there is no
safety problem. There also appears to be no safety problem with the LPB. The
LPB is totally solid state; there are no liquid phases in the battery. The
lithium is part of a very thin sandwich consisting of five layers, namely,
an insulator, the lithium fuel (anode), the polymer electrolyte, the cathode
(vanadium oxide composite), and a metallic collector. And all five of these
materials are rolled into a sandwich only 100 microns thick! So it takes
many of these composite layers stacked to form a battery. It's like making
filo dough pastry, only the layers are even thinner. Questioned about the
reactivity of metallic lithium during fabrication, 3M and Hydro-Quebec
engineers responded that processing takes place in a controlled environment
of very low humidity air. This is sufficient to prevent rapid oxidation of
the lithium. To fabricate the lithium foil, it is first extruded to 250
microns thickness, then rolled to 20 microns thickness. That is very thin
foil, indeed!
Like the Zebra battery, the LPB is encapsulated in an insulated container
incorporating a cooling system. The entire system consists of battery,
encapsulation, thermal management system and electronic control system.
3M and Hydro-Quebec claim that the LPB will be the first battery to "come
close" to meeting the commercialization criteria for cost and performance
set by the USABC.
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
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--- Begin Message ---
> I disagree that the investment to go into production must be
> astronomical. Corbin made it. Factory Five has sold over 500 kits,
> allowing builders to put a Cobra replica on the road for under $30k. It
> gets back to the assumption that a manufacturer of a car must sell in
> large numbers. I don't think that's true. If someone can build EVs in
> low volumes and make a profit others will follow. Lots of little car
> companies is just as good, maybe better, than a few large ones.
The problem in the US is the safety requirements. This pretty much
insures that the only auto manufacturers will be ones with lots of R&D
money.
There are only a few viable ways around these laws, build motorcycles
(like the Sparrow), built kits (self-assembled autos bypass many of the
safety requirments like air-bags etc.), NEVs, and converting ICE
vehicles that already meet the requirements.
Each of these solutions have it's own problems. Motorcycles don't
qualify for most of the Tax breaks, most states require a special
license, and some people simply want a car with four wheels that can
carry more than one passenger.
Kit cars only appeal to people who have a lot of mechanical ability and
free time. Apparently that isn't all that many (I've seen perhaps a
dozen kit cars on the road in my lifetime), but that might be enough for
a small company...maybe.
NEVs are NEVs, enough said.
Converting ICEs. It's basically impossible to buy gliders from the
automakers these days so that means converting used cars. It's hard
enough to sell a $30,000 EV let alone a used one. That guy up in canada
that is converting the renaults, anybody know how many he has sold?
>
> The idea of doing this as a non-profit is interesting. I don't know
> what's involved, finance-wise. I can't think of any non-profit producer
> of consumer products. Any examples?
>
> Chris
>
--
EVDL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 24 Feb 2003 at 20:57, Christopher Zach wrote:
> 15 amp-hours
> is more than I have gotten in months.
It's possible that you're down to 50% capacity. However, I suspect that, as
I posted before (did it make the list?), you are running on only one 16 amp-
hour string. Most likely the other has an open or high resistance battery.
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
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Found This:
1993 Kewet El-Jet ....45 mph 2 seater
This one is too small for me but someone may like it.
cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2405165126&category=6
472
also found someone else who has one
www.austinev.org/evalbum/212.html
I'm still watching for my first EV.
Anyone know of a good fit for a family of 5 (3 small kids), short trips <30
miles
The Prism Electricar was the best fit yet but I did not win it.
This Car, A 1983 BMW, may be for sale but I have not heard back from owner.
www.austinev.org/evalbum/238.html
Trotman in VA
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Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> The problem in the US is the safety requirements. This
> pretty much insures that the only auto manufacturers will be
> ones with lots of R&D money.
Bingo. So the companies that fought so long and hard against safety
certification will use it as a weapon against competition from
start-ups.
The critical question here is cost. Rick Woodbury is probably the only
person on the list who can comment intelligently on this. Rick, what
would it cost to have an outside firm take your design through
certification? Is doing it yourself even worth considering, that is,
could a newcomer ever make it through the process if he had to learn the
ropes as he went?
> There are only a few viable ways around these laws, build
> motorcycles (like the Sparrow), built kits (self-assembled
> autos bypass many of the safety requirments like air-bags
> etc.), NEVs, and converting ICE vehicles that already meet
> the requirements.
>
> Each of these solutions have it's own problems. Motorcycles
> don't qualify for most of the Tax breaks, most states require
> a special license, and some people simply want a car with
> four wheels that can carry more than one passenger.
>
> Kit cars only appeal to people who have a lot of mechanical
> ability and free time. Apparently that isn't all that many
> (I've seen perhaps a dozen kit cars on the road in my
> lifetime), but that might be enough for a small company...maybe.
>
> NEVs are NEVs, enough said.
>
> Converting ICEs. It's basically impossible to buy gliders
> from the automakers these days so that means converting used
> cars. It's hard enough to sell a $30,000 EV let alone a used
> one. That guy up in canada that is converting the renaults,
> anybody know how many he has sold?
You're right, each has its own limitations. But each can be profitable
within those limitations. I could even see a single company selling
motorcycles, kit cars and NEVs. You need to grow big enough to be able
to afford certification. Then you're in the big leagues.
Chris
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Chris Tromley wrote:
The idea of doing this as a non-profit is interesting. I don't know
what's involved, finance-wise. I can't think of any non-profit producer
of consumer products. Any examples?
Well, it isn't their primary function and they aren't the direct
manufacturer, but the Girl Scouts come to mind (he said, eyeing the
box of cookies on the next person's desk). Those cookies are
produced for the non-profit entity by a licensed bakery, so there's
probably a small-ish profit being made at that level. But the
non-profit still sells the license and controls the full distribution
cycle. I'd say that model works pretty well, seeing as how it is
their biggest fund raiser.
Granted, cookies are quite a bit different from cars. But if you
want something larger that works pretty well, Habitat for Humanity
has been mentioned on the list as a pretty good non-profit model for
big-ticket items. I'm not sure if their cooperative assembly methods
would work for cars, but their underlying financial model (donations
to start and purchase price financing further construction) could
apply very well to the auto industry.
--
-Adam Kuehn
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Bruce Tucker wrote:
>
> > Questions to answer:
> > Q1) Could NEMA 14-50 be made to meet the codes?
>
> If it doesn't, then why aren't the police raiding RV parks across the
> country?
>
> > Q2) Could businesses still qualify for public charging incentive if they
> do
> > not use AVCON?
>
> Are RV parks claiming public charging incentives now? If they aren't, maybe
> they should: they could be a nice lobbying force for the standardization of
> the EV charging infrastructure in a way that would help them and the EV
> community. Unless of course they are required to provide electricity for
> free...
>
> Bruce Tucker
This is good stuff.
I will make a prediction.
All the public political help will fade and US EVers will make are own
basic infrastructure.
Then when they see all of us driving around in a $5 a gallon world, they
will get the idea. USE what is ALready there!
Trying to enforce anything else will eventually be proved as folly.
Installing a full 14-50 with Neutral solves the 110-120 issue. So lets
use it.
A 110 ev service should be just a GFI breaker protected outlet. With
the feed breaker close by for those over draw events.
Now there is a growing demand for BIG current 36 to 72 volt chargers.
With 110 as the ONLY source. This is 30 to 60 amps of current. I see a
PFC20 as a prime supplier.
If this is the world the NEVs are living in, We better have as much
110VAC as we dare ask for.
A PFC20 with a 14-50 end on it, is a bit bold, but rather easy to
produce.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
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Andre Blanchard wrote:
>
> We have a variable speed 3PH AC grinding spindle (for ID grinding) that runs
> from a slow speed of 30,000 RPM to a max of 120,000 RPM. I do not know what
> kind of motor it is but it is pressurized with filtered and dried air, and
> cooled with chilled water.
>
> I think dental drills are more like 300,000 or 400,000 RPM air turbines
> running on air bearings.
NOT so with my Oral surgon. I had my Wisdom teeth pulled a few years
ago. We had a nice chat about BLDC motors and torque. His new unit was
much torguier and quiter that the early ones.
I said it all boils down to amps in the motor ciruit.
This was a difficult chat as my face went numb in a hurry.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
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--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>
> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> >
> > Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> > > Well, let me restate. There is SUPPOSED TO BE little or no changing flux
> > > in the magnets or back iron. Remember that the magnets and back iron are
> > > not laminated; they are just solid lumps of metal. If there is an AC
> > > flux, they look like a shorted turn, and get hot.
> >
> > Could the rotor be made with ferrite (non-conductive) magnets?
>
> Sure -- but they usually want the highest possible flux density, to get
> the highest possible torque. The fashionable way to do this is neodymium
> magnets, which are conductive.
>
> For reference, the other way to do it is use ferrite magnets, and run
> the rpm much higher to get the horsepower per pound back up. Ferrite,
> and even ironless rotor motors have been built past 100,000 rpm.
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
Or just make sure some air gets impelled out of the case, and that there
might be a upper limit to how hard you can push this kind of motor.
Not to pick on you Lee, but your answer is the Classic one from those
that are trained, BLDC rotors make no heat, then they forget that that
may or may not be true in all cases. As we know... moving metal in a HF
magnetic flux, does make forces and therefore heat. It's just that a
BLDC motor is not expected to become a Induction motor all by itself.
It does. Lams and a few airholes to pump air around the case helps.
Ferrites are not real good for magnetic permeability. Perm is a major
factor in how eff the Neo Magnets can be. You want both. How you get it
is a good design project.
Madman's way would be to have a solid rotor disk with the magnets on
the rim of course, and some lightening holes drilled close to the shaft,
and axial pumped air flow.
Live with the heat, and deal with it, because the added motor torque is
the "Product" that you are selling to the customer. The eff gains of a
low torque high RPM motor, are not what the customer needs, we need
massive stump pulling torque with as little drive train losses as
possible. I will take the losses in the motor if I can forget them in
the drive train. a 100:1 gear box, is gonna be REAL lossey, heavy and
full of oil.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
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--- Begin Message ---
On 25 Feb 2003 at 14:26, Chris Tromley wrote:
> I can't think of any non-profit producer
> of consumer products. Any examples?
Musical Heritage Society, which sells classical CDs and tapes:
http://www.musicalheritage.com/
There are also some other nonprofit record companies selling partly through
ordinary retail channels, including Cedille Records
http://www.cedillerecords.org/
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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>We were just discussing about this last Saturday in EBEAA meeting. But, we
>did not come to a consensus. I am summarizing what I got from the meeting.
>
>1) NEMA 14-50 is the most preferred setup. But, no one in the meeting knew
>if it met the electrical codes to put it in public and expose it to weather.
>
>2) AVCON is the approved standard. But, you can't get 110V from it.
>(Let's not forget that all NEVs are using 110V charging.)
>
>3) 110V is needed in any setup because most conversion only uses 110V
>charging. A GFI protected NEMA 5-20 meets the code and it doesn't add much
>cost to the setup.
>
>
>So, we really only have 2 combinations to choose:
>A) AVCON and NEMA 5-20.
>
>B) NEMA 14-50 (if it could be made to meet the codes) and NEMA 5-20.
>
>Questions to answer:
>Q1) Could NEMA 14-50 be made to meet the codes?
>
>Q2) Could businesses still qualify for public charging incentive if they do
>not use AVCON?
>
>Q3) Is there a way to set up a poll for people to vote on this?
>
>
>Anyone care to provide answers or more suggestion/questions?
>
>Ed Ang
I went through these questions before I started
pursuing the issue of EV infrastructure in the
North S.F. Bay. My first thought was, well, why not
put 14-50's everywhere? They're cheap, supply the
level of power needed and people can use adaptors.
However, CARB has decided that the Avcon conductive
system is the nominal standard. The Avcon PowerPak
is a UL listed device approved for EV charging
which costs, last time I looked, under $400.
Installations of Avcons are eligible for BAAQMD
grants up to 40% of the total cost. The Avcon
adaptor box is available from EAA (converting
the Avcon to a 14-50).
I think we need to get past this VHS-Beta stage,
otherwise we don't stand a chance against big oil/
big auto. We also can't afford to leave ourselves
open to liability issues. If a business installs
a 14-50 in order to support our cause and then
has problems - we as the EAA don't want liability.
Therefore I think Ed's option A above is really
the only one, i.e. Avcon + 110V 20A GFI outlet
That's what we're installing here.
The other issue is all the RAV4EVs with SPI,
but work is ongoing to retrofit LPIs to meet
their need and in the longer term, if CARB still
has any influence they face the conversion to
conductive at some point in the future or the
use of adaptors.
My 2kWh,
Nick
Dr Nick Carter,
Owner, npc Imaging,
2228 Magowan Dr.,
Santa Rosa, CA 95405
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel/fax: +1 (707) 573 9361
http://www.npcimaging.com
Th!nk City EV driver (over 10K miles on our car) &
President, North Bay Chapter, Electric Auto Association
"Spare the air every day - drive electric!"
***************************************************************
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** Dover miniature scores bundled with Naxos audio CDs **
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--- Begin Message ---
On 25 Feb 2003 at 14:41, Jim Coate wrote:
> If I was trying to set up a nonprofit company to produce EVs, how would I
> ever reach consensus as to what we should produce? 4-door sedan?
I'm not an expert, but I've worked in nonprofit broadcasting for a long
time. Some might argue that it's contrary to the spirit of nonprofits to
run one "your way." But if you want to, it's not difficult; I've seen it
done. You just carefully hand-pick your board.
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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--- Begin Message ---
On 25 Feb 2003 at 15:01, David Roden (Akron OH USA) wrote:
> Evercell fails to make them usable and reliable for us, perhaps
> someone else will.
I meant to say, "IF Evercell fails to make them usable and reliable for us,
perhaps someone else will." Sorry.
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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