EV Digest 2616
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: New Product - AC Drive System Hi RPM's
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Energy policy pics
by murdoch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff
by "Tim Clevenger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Inspired Corporation's Product - Part 2
by "Tim Clevenger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff
by "Christian T. Kocmick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Battery Review [in light of recent discussion]
by Nawaz Qureshi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: EVI ICS 200-B charging unit
by "Bruce Tucker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Standard Public Charging Station
by "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Standard Public Charging Station
by "Bruce Tucker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Inspired Corporation's Product - Part 2 (long, but please read!)
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Waterproffing and insulating regulators and such.
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EV speed record, Bogus Silent Thunder Record, SCTA stuff
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Inspired Corporation's Product - Part 2 (long, but please read!)
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Standard Public Charging Station
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Inspired Corporation's Product - Part 2 (long, but please read!)
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: BMS cost (was Re: LIN bus link)
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Inspired Corporation's Product - Part 2 (long, but please read!)
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Standard Public Charging Station
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) EV1 help line
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Begin Message ---
Bob Rice wrote:
> 100k rpm! Geez! What FOR? The gearbox would far outweigh the motor
> to the point of "Why Bother"? And if it came apart, would make nice
> shrapnel! Scary rpm's! Sorry had to ask. Dental drills, maybe?
Yes, dental drills, and other small machine tools are a market. Also,
flywheel energy storage for larger units.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 24 Feb 2003 22:17:02 -0800, you wrote:
>It still asks me for my login and password. How do you suggest I get to the
>web page?
Ah screw it, here they are on my own private web page.
http://www.herecomesmongo.com/pics2/
Just click on the two files that end in .jpg. I'll leave them up for
a couple of weeks I guess.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From : Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To : EV
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject : Re: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff Date :
24 Feb 2003 23:52:47 -0700
You aren't using Sparrows as a success story are you? Corbin isn't
anywhere close to breaking even on those and at the current rate never
will.
I don't think he has even grossed 1/2 of what he spent on R&D yet.
How about a kit car?
http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/columns/2000/November/200011_columns_webster_factoryfive.xml?page=1
I'm not saying that this particular kit is anywhere near practical--just an
idea. The Cobra kit in the article is about $12,000 in single quantity,
including front suspension and steering rack. Rear gear and drivetrain
comes from a 5.0 Mustang. I realize that the lack of a roof makes this
thing impractical from a wind resistance point of view, but at 2,300 pounds
including the Mustang engine and tranny, it could make a light, fast EV.
Sure, kit cars may be crude in the fit and finish category, but when you can
leave Vipers in your smog-free dust, fit and finish can be saved for later
model years. (After all, the first Vipers came with flat dashboards and
plastic windows.)
Tim
_________________________________________________________________
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 2003-02-24 at 17:17, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
I thought gasoline burns far easier than batteries, yet don't
see many fire extinguishers in ICEs. Wonder why.
It's funny. I hear a lot more about ICE fires than EV fires. Not a week
went by that I didn't see a carbeque on the side of the road when I commuted
by car.
How come EV's and hybrids are given these delicate handholdings in the
media, but people are free to ignore the stickers on the gas pumps warning
of the dangers of getting in and out of their cars, filling cans on their
pickup beds and talking on cell phones while fueling? FUD, FUD, FUD.
(Heavy on the fear.)
Tim
_________________________________________________________________
STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you think of what Solectria did with the gliders they got from GM as a
high end kit-car, then the Cobra starts making lots of sense. Just add EV
parts in lieu of ICE and Voila! The EV Cobra Racer. (I know its more
complicated than that. : -) )
Christian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Clevenger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 11:12 AM
Subject: Re: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff
> >From : Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To : EV
> ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject : Re: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff Date
:
> >24 Feb 2003 23:52:47 -0700
> >
> >You aren't using Sparrows as a success story are you? Corbin isn't
> >anywhere close to breaking even on those and at the current rate never
> will.
> >I don't think he has even grossed 1/2 of what he spent on R&D yet.
>
> How about a kit car?
>
>
http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/columns/2000/November/200011_col
umns_webster_factoryfive.xml?page=1
>
> I'm not saying that this particular kit is anywhere near practical--just
an
> idea. The Cobra kit in the article is about $12,000 in single quantity,
> including front suspension and steering rack. Rear gear and drivetrain
> comes from a 5.0 Mustang. I realize that the lack of a roof makes this
> thing impractical from a wind resistance point of view, but at 2,300
pounds
> including the Mustang engine and tranny, it could make a light, fast EV.
>
> Sure, kit cars may be crude in the fit and finish category, but when you
can
> leave Vipers in your smog-free dust, fit and finish can be saved for later
> model years. (After all, the first Vipers came with flat dashboards and
> plastic windows.)
>
> Tim
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
> http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi:
I disagree with "lead acid batteries.....don't like high currents". Were
this the case, they will not be in use by the billion as starting batteries.
Even the deep cycle types can deliver a wallop, albeit at a somewhat
lower rate than the SLI types. The calcium alloy grid batteries (sealed
or flooded) have the highest high rate capability.
Sincerely
Nawaz Qureshi
Jim Coate wrote:
Sam Harper wrote:
Hey guys. As I have heard more horror stories, I'd like to continue
my battery review discussion, but to a more direct "which is good,
which is bad" point. Lets make a list:
- Flooded lead-acid: Heavy but cheap, don't like high currents.
Recycling available everywhere (as this batttery is used in all ICE
cars trucks, etc)
- Sealed lead-acid, AGM construction [Yellow Tops]: Heavy, not cheap,
like high currents, easy to recycle as above.
- [Flooded] NiCad: lighter, better range, like high currents. Easy to
*find* (SAFT), hard to obatin due to high cost (and hurdles to qualify
for warrenty). Recycable, but need to ship back to SAFT.
-NiMH : Hard to find (add suppliers here), more costly, better range
Easy enough to find (SAFT) but very pricey.
-Li-Ion : BAD. Dont handle current well, too much voltage drop, fire.
No particular recylcing methods in place... although not "toxic" still
would clog landfills. Largely untested.
- NiZn [Evercell] : Alright, better range than Lead, but not tested
No particular recylcing methods in place... although not "toxic" still
would clog landfills. Apprently have nasty self-discharge habits.
-Zebra : What ever happened
who?
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I like the idea of moving away from AVCON and Inductive charging stations.
(BTW: Does this violate electrical codes?) I'd be interested in hearing
from current RAV4, EV1 and Th!nk drivers to see if they would mind if (or
prefer that) their vehicles had the type of charging arrangement you
suggest.
> But with CARB dropping EVs, the automakers
> fat-n-happy with the president's support (getting
> their campaign fund's worth), and no new public
> AVCONs being installed (least not in my area),
> why would you want an AVCON?
We've had new AVCONs installed in two locations in Thousand Oaks just
recently. And the city is continuing to insist upon charging stations for
major comercial developers (like at the new Home Depot) so not everyone is
giving up on ev's yet. However, it might be even easier to spread the
charger infrastructure if a simpler and less expensive charging station was
specified. What do we tell the cities to install if nothing is available
commercially? Can someone on this list start manufacturing an appropriate
box (or kit) for sale through the EAA, Electro Automotive or EVParts, etc.?
>The biggest failure I have seen on public chargers
>came from vandalism. AVCON male handles pried ...
So you want to change the paradigm from a male station to a female station.
That way vandalism is reduced by having the cord exposed only during the
time when a car is actually charging. If a vandal does damage your cord,
though, you can't charge until it's fixed.
This change is already underway at the Oaks Mall, where a 5-20 receptacle
was installed at the base of the (soon to be repaired) SPI Magnecharger
pedestal.
> Since CARB and automakers do not care anymore, we
> should move toward a simple KISS solution using a
> 14-50 outlet like the mcs-100.
Do we give up on CARB yet? What if CARB decides to stick with their mandate
in such a way that auto manufacturers HAVE to produce EVs? Shouldn't we be
getting CARB to insist upon some charging standard that is required in order
to earn the ZEV credits? What if CARB told the automakers that in order to
earn ZEV credits their cars must be equiped with
1) a charger capable of charging from either 110VAC or 220VAC
2) sufficient cord to reach 8' (10'? 12'? more) laterally from the nose of
the car
3) cord capable of carrying an appropriate current, terminated with a 14-50
style plug and provide an adapter for 5-15 plug (or vice versa?)
Now is the time to do this, because if CARB does come through and makes the
auto manufacturers produce more EVs, the last thing we want is to have more
SPI requiring RAV4-EVs or EV1s or AVCON requiring Th!nks. (By the way, what
do the Norwegian Th!nks use for their charging stations?).
Bruce Tucker
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
> - Chassis designed to allow rapid replacement of virtually any part.
> (motor, batteries, controller, etc. as easy to swap as a hard drive,
> memory, video card).
>
> - Cheap, throwaway design. Nothing built to last. Only
> intended to work
> a few years and then get replaced.
As usual, intriguing and provocative thoughts from Lee. I'll take minor
issue with one of the above. The way I see it, the first one means you
don't have to do the second.
Most long-time car guys know you can easily get way over 200k miles out
of a car with proper care. Some may not know that big rig trucks can go
a million miles before being retired. And those vehicles live a much
harder life than passenger cars. They can do it because they're
designed for it - by using the first concept above. The truck that
ultimately gets retired is not quite what it was when first put into
service. They last so long because they are easily serviced and parts
are swapped out as necessary.
A good example is dash instruments. They can be all the same instrument
that gets plugged into a dash location that tells it what its function
is. Fixing a failed instrument takes maybe five minutes. What would it
take to fix a broken fuel gauge on your daily driver? This concept can
keep a car on the road seemingly forever. Which is why you'll never see
it in the consumer market. Not enough profit. You can get away with
this in the consumer market because people worry about reliability when
they approach 100k miles. Commercial operators are smart enough to know
they're buying miles - life cycle costs are most important.
A 100k mile life is an unfounded worry with an EV. So why adopt the
second item above? Build it to last forever. Even if it becomes
obsolete, it's not an environmental burden like an old ICE would be.
I'm speaking a bit outside my knowledge here, so correct me if
necessary. As electrical components evolve, they tend to become
smaller. Upgrades should generally have no problem fitting where the
old components were. The reason you don't see any 20 year old PC
chassis is because of changes in basic architecture. In a car, that
might be handled by nothing more complicated than a wire harness change.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We were just discussing about this last Saturday in EBEAA meeting. But, we
did not come to a consensus. I am summarizing what I got from the meeting.
1) NEMA 14-50 is the most preferred setup. But, no one in the meeting knew
if it met the electrical codes to put it in public and expose it to weather.
2) AVCON is the approved standard. But, you can't get 110V from it.
(Let's not forget that all NEVs are using 110V charging.)
3) 110V is needed in any setup because most conversion only uses 110V
charging. A GFI protected NEMA 5-20 meets the code and it doesn't add much
cost to the setup.
So, we really only have 2 combinations to choose:
A) AVCON and NEMA 5-20.
B) NEMA 14-50 (if it could be made to meet the codes) and NEMA 5-20.
Questions to answer:
Q1) Could NEMA 14-50 be made to meet the codes?
Q2) Could businesses still qualify for public charging incentive if they do
not use AVCON?
Q3) Is there a way to set up a poll for people to vote on this?
Anyone care to provide answers or more suggestion/questions?
Ed Ang
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Questions to answer:
> Q1) Could NEMA 14-50 be made to meet the codes?
If it doesn't, then why aren't the police raiding RV parks across the
country?
> Q2) Could businesses still qualify for public charging incentive if they
do
> not use AVCON?
Are RV parks claiming public charging incentives now? If they aren't, maybe
they should: they could be a nice lobbying force for the standardization of
the EV charging infrastructure in a way that would help them and the EV
community. Unless of course they are required to provide electricity for
free...
Bruce Tucker
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 24 Feb 2003 at 13:05, Chris Tromley wrote:
> You don't want to convert an
> existing car. The people on this list are familiar primarily with
> conversions, and have accepted their limitations. The public will not,
> at least not in great numbers.
What about a gasser originally designed to be an EV? There surely aren't
many, but two I know of are the MMC Smart and the Mercedes A-class.
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
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--- Begin Message ---
On 24 Feb 2003 at 13:05, Chris Tromley wrote:
> I was thinking in terms of having a company make these, selling kits to
> individuals or franchisees who would be the actual "manufacturer" of the car.
Sounds exactly like the Bradley GT electric of 25 years ago. Anybody know
how many were sold?
> How many Forces were sold at retail to individuals?
A mere handful, but then Solectria never advertised them to individuals.
They were really intended for institutions, governments, and utilities.
Most individuals who own them now purchased them from some such entity when
the vehicle was replaced (often with an EV1 or RAV4/EV) or retired.
> I think the only way to make this viable is for someone to make real
> money from it.
I disagree. That's been tried many times and hasn't worked yet. (OK, in
some cases someone ^did^ make more-or-less real money -- by bleeding the
company and running it into the ground.)
The problem is that it's difficult to produce a short-term return on
investment when (1) the cost to get into production is astronomical; (2)
your product doesn't create its own new market (as, for example, MP3 players
did); and (3) the consumer doesn't perceive any problems with the existing
product.
The reason that electric bikes and scooters have been so successful in the
marketplace is that (1) they're relatively cheap to design and produce
(compared to a car); (2) they created a new market segment (people who want
to bike but don't want to get into shape); and (3) solved a problem with an
existing product (biking to work got office workers sweaty).
They also didn't try to compete directly with bikes, and entered the market
at a price so low that (in many cases) the target consumer could buy one out
of current income and didn't need to take out a loan or withdraw savings --
making them almost an impulse-purchase item.
I still say, consider going nonprofit. If you don't have to worry about
^ever^ creating a profit to divide among your investors, you can concentrate
on design instead of stalling the investors for yet another 6 months.
Nonprofits can also qualify for grants and raise money directly from the
public through contributions, and get some significant tax advantages.
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>
> I've had more trouble just brushing contacts on the thirty regulators I use
> to keep my pack balanced. It has destroyed a lot of regs. I was wondering
> if it might be a good idea to use some of that paint on insulation on the
> component leads of my regulators. It would be some work and you would have
> to keep it off anything that got really hot but I was thinking it would
> water proof and insulate the connections for better dependabilty. Anyone
> done this on bare boards? Just a thought. Lawrence Rhodes.....
Yea clean them with hot soapy water Blow dry them with compressed air,
air dry with about 150 Deg air flow. Let cool and conformal coat them.
You are the King Reg Killer. That you still have MK1s says you have had
them for years!!
Let me guess, you run them in a Ev bike on the street without any
protection??? All weather, every day.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Henry, I think that bump on yer old noggin might have set in some
dyslexia ;-) I have a 1997 SCTA rule book open in front of me. In the
electric section Class I is for vehicles 3500 lbs and heavier. Class II
reads for vehicles between 1500 to 3499lbs. and Class III for vehicles 1499
lbs. and lighter. A side note. When we used to road race "Silent Thunder" it
weighed in at over 4000 lbs. It had five strings of 26 amp/hr Hawkers
running 216 volts nominal. I guess what upsets me about the SCTA is it's
effect on history. I really believe history should not be made up to suit
ones political interests. I am a firm believer in factual history. I hate it
when I'm personally misquoted in the press and I'm sure others are as well.
Believing in truth is really not that horrible of a thing even if it isn't
in vogue.
Roderick
Roderick Wilde, President, EV Parts Inc.
Your Online EV Superstore
www.evparts.com
1-888-EV Parts (387-2787)
Phone: 360-385-7966 Fax: 360-385-7922
PO Box 221, 107 Louisa Street
Port Townsend, WA 98368
----- Original Message -----
From: "Henry Deaton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 5:10 PM
Subject: Re: EV speed record, Bogus Silent Thunder Record, SCTA stuff
> Hi Rodrick,
>
> Why are you so upset with the SCTA?
>
> For what its worth, in Silent Thunder's case I'd be more inclined to think
> that someone misunderstood the SCTA's rules for electrics and decided that
> it must be referring to battery weight instead of total vehicle weight. Of
> course, you're also supposed to have a weight slip from a registered
> vehicle scale to prove the EV qualifies for its class. I'd be interested
in
> seeing Silent Thunder's weight slip and SCTA log book.
>
> BTW, before 1998 the SCTA EV classes were E I = total weight under 1499
> lbs, E II = 1500 to 3499 lbs, and E III = 3500 lbs and over. So, no matter
> what anyone may have said Silent Thunder was never legal for the E1 class.
>
> Also, the SCTA has been around a long time and there are good reasons they
> don't jump up and create new classes anytime somebody suggests it. I think
> that building vehicles to run in a possible future class is a good way to
> pay your dues and get respect in an organization, and thereby pave the way
> for a new class.
>
> In my case, I'm not that concerned if they never have a class for my
> motorcycle. I'm mainly building my bike so I can enjoy that 3 to 5 miles
of
> flat-out full-on throttle chasing a narrow black line down the salt. What
> could be better than that? Of course I have also been lobbying for new
> electric motorcycle classes, too. Right now electric motorcycles are only
> legal in the SCTA's motorcycle streamliner class, and building a
> streamliner motorcycle is a much bigger investment in time and money than
I
> can make at the moment.
>
> Henry Deaton
> SF, CA
>
>
>
> At 12:52 PM 2/18/2003 -0800, you wrote:
> >Actually what happened with the SCTA is that they changed horses in the
> >middle of the stream. The class 1/E record that "Silent Thunder" holds
was
> >for its correct weight by their class system when it set the record. Then
> >they decided to go with the F.I.A. system of weight classes. A side note,
> >the worlds quickest electric motorcycle according to the F.I A. turned 15
> >something seconds in the quarter mile. Give me another break! Ed Rannberg
> >was turning 12s back in the early 80s. Last year a good friend of Ed's
sat
> >in on the SCTA board meetings to try to get street classes for Bonneville
> >land speed racing to no avail. The SCTA says that if we build three
electric
> >vehicles in the same non existent class and bring them to Bonneville that
> >they will consider making a class for them. Let's see now. Invest
$35000.00
> >per vehicle for three vehicles, then transport them across country to
> >Bonneville, Then it rains and they cancel the event, turn around, go home
> >and come back again next year just in case you may get to run. Oh, and
then
> >if you are lucky they will make a class the following year so that you
can
> >come back again and try to set a land speed record if the weather holds
and
> >you get to run that is. The SCTA has a totally different mind set than
the
> >NHRA. The NHRA looks at electrics as more customers since they are a
> >business. In defense of the SCTA, they look at electrics as just more
work
> >for them as they are an all volunteer organization. They do not get paid
> >more for more work. But I wish they would at least straighten out their
> >record keeping on their existing electric records. They are a big joke
and a
> >disgrace to electric racing. They make the hard earned records
meaningless.
> >A solution would be to start a new record keeping organization. Use their
> >rule books and their track and have your own classes. Similar to what we
do
> >with NEDRA. They do have a good safety record and the rule book spells
out
> >the safety regulations well. Any volunteers out there to start a new
> >organization?
> >
> >Roderick
> >
> >Roderick Wilde, President, EV Parts Inc.
> > Your Online EV Superstore
> > www.evparts.com
> > 1-888-EV Parts (387-2787)
> >Phone: 360-385-7966 Fax: 360-385-7922
> > PO Box 221, 107 Louisa Street
> > Port Townsend, WA 98368
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "David Dymaxion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 11:44 AM
> >Subject: Re: EV speed record
> >
> >
> > > I heard they classed him like that so he would not have to compete
> > > with the 200+ mph streamliners. I guess they figured the electric
> > > land speed racer crowd is small enough no one would care?
> > >
> > > There is every class imaginable for gassers (around 100 classes), but
> > > only 3 for electric, only differentiated by weight.
> > >
> > > It would be nice if they at least had a street legal class, or
> > > allowed an "Electric" class for every existing class, or a voltage
> > > based classes or something. Maybe a letter asking for new classing to
> > > them would do it?
> > >
> > > I have more than academic interest, I live only 2 hours from the Salt
> > > Flats and am hoping to run my conversion-in-progress there some day.
> > >
> > > There is a 130 mph and 150 mph class for street legal cars -- not
> > > sure if that would count for an official record, but could get you an
> > > official time slip for bragging rights.
> > >
> > > --- Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > I feel sorry for the ETCA if they are going to follow the lead of
> > > > the
> > > > SCTA. As far as I'm conscerned they have absolutely no credibility
> > > > and their electric vehicle records are worthless. Get them to send
> > > > you a copy of who holds what EV records. Find out what class they
> > > > have for "Silent Thunder", a car I campained first on the one mile
> > > > oval at Phoenix International Raceway and then at Firebird
> > > > International Raceway in road racing.Both tracks are located in the
> > > >
> > > > Phoenix Arizona area. We sold the car to Michael Murphy who had me
> > > > set it up and deliver it to Bonneville Salt Flats to set a land
> > > > speed
> > > > record. As I remember the car weighed in around 3200 lbs. with 336
> > > > volts of Optimas, a first generation Zilla and a single 9 inch
> > > > Advanced DC motor. On the first run we firballed the motor and
> > > > coasted through the traps 106 MPH. Bob Schneveis installed four 8
> > > > inch Advanced DC motors for Michael and I was on the pit crew the
> > > > following year when it ran 133 MPH as I remember. This was a
> > > > lisenced
> > > > street legal car. At the end of a run the brushes weren't even
> > > > warm.
> > > > I know because I stuck my finger on them before we towed the car
> > > > back
> > > > after the run. The main problem with the car going so slow was that
> > > >
> > > > it ran out of gearing before it even got to the beginning of the
> > > > timing line . There is still more in that car! When you look up the
> > > >
> > > > SCTA record on this heavy weight they will tell you it holds the
> > > > Class 1 record. Give me a break! Why don't you tell me that Dennis
> > > > Berube's car runs in the NEDRA 96 volt high school sedan division.
> > > >
> > > > Another NEDRA Outlaw
> > > > Roderick
> > > >
> > > > Roderick Wilde, President, EV Parts Inc.
> > > > Your Online EV Superstore
> > > > www.evparts.com
> > > > 1-888-EV Parts (387-2787)
> > > > Phone: 425-672-7977 Fax: 425-672-7907
> > > > 18908 Highway 99, Suite B
> > > > Lynnwood, WA 98036-5218
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >The ECTA uses the Southern California Timing Association (SCTA)
> > > > >rules with a few minor changes. EV's are put into one of three
> > > > >streamliner classes, based on total vehicle weight:
> > > > >
> > > > >Class 1, under 1099 lbs (less than 500 kg)
> > > > >Class 2, 1100 to 2200 lbs (500 to 1000 kg)
> > > > >Class 3, over 2200 lbs (over 1000 kg)
> > > > >
> > > > >They also have some fairly stringent safety rules that I don't
> > > > think
> > > > >your average NEDRA-machine would meet. For example, your car will
> > > > >need at a minimum a roll bar or roll cage, a fire extinguishing
> > > > >system, and a competition seat-belt. The driver will need an
> > > > >SFI-rated suit, plus SFI-rated boots, and gloves. The specific
> > > > >requirements are based on the anticipated vehicle speed or the
> > > > speed
> > > > >of the class record.
> > > > >
> > > > >If you want to run with the ECTA, I'd recommend getting a copy of
> > > > >the rule book right away and also contacting someone on the ECTA
> > > > >technical committee to discuss your plans.
> > > > >
> > > > >So, while the speed for the record seems "low", I don't think you
> > > > >could just show up with a NEDRA/NHRA EV drag racing vehicle and be
> > > >
> > > > >able to compete. But, if you do make your machine ECTA-legal, I
> > > > bet
> > > > >you'd have a lot of fun running there. Just think, it's a 1.2 mile
> > > >
> > > > >long dragstrip!
> > > > >
> > > > >Henry Deaton
> > > > >(still working on my electric LSR motorcycle)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >At 10:03 PM 2/16/2003 -0800, you wrote:
> > > > >>It's looks like they make new class's as they need them, so it
> > > > should be
> > > > >>easy for some of those Power of DC racers, most EV transmissions
> > > > never see
> > > > >>fourth gear.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>www.lasvegasev.com
> > > > >>Richard Furniss
> > > > >>Las Vegas, NV
> > > > >>1986 Mazda EX-7 192v
> > > > >>1981 Lectra Centauri 108v
> > > > >>3 Wheel Trail Master 12v
> > > > >>Board Member, www.lveva.org
> > > > >>Las Vegas Electric Vehicle Association
> > > > >>
> > > > >>----- Original Message -----
> > > > >>From: "Seth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > >>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > >>Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 6:09 PM
> > > > >>Subject: EV speed record
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> http://www.ecta-lsr.com/recordscars1.htm
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> The East Coast timing association has an electric class, and
> > > > the 1 mile
> > > > >>> record is ~115 mph. I think there are a few people on the list
> > > > who could
> > > > >>> raise that a bit. I have heard is it an overgrown dragstrip
> > > > for a
> > > > >>> course, nothing like the salt flats, but it might be
> > > > relatively easy
> > > > >>> pickings for an EV drag car. I don't have the rule book, and
> > > > it isn't
> > > > >> > online (that I saw) though.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Seth
> > > > >>> --
> > > > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > =====
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
> > > http://shopping.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 24 Feb 2003 at 13:06, Chris Tromley wrote:
> The Solectria Force was based on a humble Metro, had
> more mundane batteries and sold for $35k maybe 10(?) years ago. Their
> volume was in the hundreds(?), so they were able to spread the
> development costs much thinner than you can.
IIRC, while Metro gliders were available (in the late 1990s) Solectria had
the base price of the Force just under $30k.
In all I think between 300 and 400 Forces were sold. Someone here may have
more accurate numbers.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Q3) Is there a way to set up a poll for people to vote on this?
Try:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/EVList/polls
Just not sure everyone would wish to "introduce" themselves to Yahoo,
if that's what it takes for access to this site
Lock
______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 24 Feb 2003 at 13:06, Chris Tromley wrote:
> DC Forces would have been very nearly as
> nice, and could have sold for maybe $25k. Still pricey, but a much
> easier sell.
Solectria ^did^ make a few DC Forces, using a brushless motor and retaining
the stock transaxle. They were cheaper, though I don't know by how much.
They were dropped after a year or two.
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>
> >> The purpose of the switchable loads is not to balance during driving;
> >> it is to balance during charging, when AC power in being supplied.
>
> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> > Yes, I know how it functions and also not suggesting to balance
> > while charging. But to burn energy from 89 bypass resistors for
> > several hours waiting for one cell to come in balance seem a waste,
> > whether comes from the mains or not. Boosting one (or few) cells
> > *while* charging adds some complexity, but one just makes a decision.
>
> Yes, it is a waste. But it's the same waste you get when balancing by
> deliberate overcharging. But with bypass resistors, at least the
> batteries are spared the heating and gassing, so you extend battery
> life.
>
> Also, remember this was proposed as an el-cheapo balancing system. Not
> the best, but one that could be cheap enough so people would actually
> buy and install it.
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
Yes, it is exactly what I am trying to build. The entry level that gets
the job done. Problem is it's a moving target!!
And it's still not really clear what is really needed. I THINK, I have
understood. But new wrinkles show up every day.
As alway, I will try.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden wrote:
> On 24 Feb 2003 at 13:05, Chris Tromley wrote:
>
> > You don't want to convert an
> > existing car. The people on this list are familiar primarily with
> > conversions, and have accepted their limitations. The public will
> > not, at least not in great numbers.
>
> What about a gasser originally designed to be an EV? There
> surely aren't
> many, but two I know of are the MMC Smart and the Mercedes A-class.
Good point David. I believe the Smart is based on the A-class design.
I can hardly wait for the Panoz-built Smart station cars to hit the
streets. If they ever become available at auction, they would be
terrific around-town EVs.
What makes them so good in this application is that they were designed
as EVs. I can't think of any others that would be available in any
useful numbers.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden wrote:
> On 24 Feb 2003 at 13:05, Chris Tromley wrote:
> > I think the only way to make this viable is for someone to
> make real
> > money from it.
>
> I disagree. That's been tried many times and hasn't worked
> yet. (OK, in
> some cases someone ^did^ make more-or-less real money -- by
> bleeding the
> company and running it into the ground.)
>
> The problem is that it's difficult to produce a short-term return on
> investment when (1) the cost to get into production is
> astronomical; (2)
> your product doesn't create its own new market (as, for
> example, MP3 players
> did); and (3) the consumer doesn't perceive any problems with
> the existing
> product.
<snip>
> I still say, consider going nonprofit. If you don't have to
> worry about
> ^ever^ creating a profit to divide among your investors, you
> can concentrate
> on design instead of stalling the investors for yet another 6
> months.
> Nonprofits can also qualify for grants and raise money
> directly from the
> public through contributions, and get some significant tax advantages.
I disagree that the investment to go into production must be
astronomical. Corbin made it. Factory Five has sold over 500 kits,
allowing builders to put a Cobra replica on the road for under $30k. It
gets back to the assumption that a manufacturer of a car must sell in
large numbers. I don't think that's true. If someone can build EVs in
low volumes and make a profit others will follow. Lots of little car
companies is just as good, maybe better, than a few large ones.
The idea of doing this as a non-profit is interesting. I don't know
what's involved, finance-wise. I can't think of any non-profit producer
of consumer products. Any examples?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A Square D box could be used that would have a
14-50 and a 5-20 outlet
http://search.yahoo.com/bin/search?p=square+d
But as I POSTed in
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/EVList/message/36458
A box like the mcs-100 needs to be offered. It has both
and it offers protection from 220VAC shock and has a cover
to protect from the elements.
If a company were to build these boxes at a low cost,
they would be the right EV charging solution.
Sheet metal box, small circuit board to turn on the 14-50
if the signal is found on the neutral and ground.
...
Lock,
people can not use the EVList Archive yahoo group poll
unless they are a member of the yahoo EVList Archive group.
That group is for archive purposes only (not for POSTing
directly to it). If many people became members, they may
get confused and POST to the Archive and not to the SJSU
listproc.
There are other Poll methods on the internet, or I could
set up a group just for EV List Polls.
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Still trying to figure out how to rescue or at least get some parts from the GA EV1s,
I happened across the General Motors EV1 website at www.gmev.com It was last updated
in 2001. There is a lot of promotional information on the EV1 and how technologically
advanced it is. There was also a phone number 1-800-25-Electric
I decided to call to ask how I could purchase a car and see what information I could
glean.
The woman I spoke with took my name and address - we'll see what they mail me.
Hopefully no letter bombs. When I told her I saw the website, it looked like a great
car and I wanted to buy one, she said the phone number was to provide support for
those with leased vehicles, that production halted in 2000, and there was no way to
get one. I told her that I had heard that the leases were ending and the cars were
being returned to GM. I asked what would happen to them. She said they were being
donated to schools. I said I worked with schools in Georgia and what would I have to
do to get one. She said that she would have to check. (Long hold, elevator music...)
She came back to the line and said the cars were only leased in California and
Arizona, all of them had been returned and donated to schools. There were none left.
I told her I knew that maybe 2 dozen were just returned in GA and could I get one of
those and save the shipping? (Long hold, elevator music...) She s!
aid she didn't know about those vehicles and said that some Gen 2 cars were going to
NY and MA. I said the GA cars were Gen 1s. I asked how many schools were on her list
that received donated cars. She said 16. Hmmm, I puzzled out loud. GM built a
couple hundred at least, 16 went to schools, there are about 24 Gen 1s in GA and only
a few Gen 2s are going to NY and MA... Where are the missing cars? She didn't know
and could not suggest who to talk with. Her supervisor had told her everything. It's
not her fault, she just answers the phone.
I was reminded of the end of Arlo Guthrie's "Alice's Restaurant" song where he
encouraged people to walk in to a "shrink" sign a bar of his song and walk out. He
was hoping to start a movement. I don't know how many members there are of the EVDL.
I wonder what would happen if everyone called the 800 number and asked similar
questions? Probably nothing.
Enjoy the EVs you have.
-Alan
--- End Message ---
