EV Digest 2619
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Science News Toyota advertisement.
by "Bruce Tucker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EV1 help line
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: EVI ICS 200-B charging unit
by Jon Knepher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) EVI MCS-100 Charging Station
by James Wolfe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Waterproffing and insulating regulators and such.
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: EVI ICS 200-B charging unit
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Magnecharge Gone?
by Sam Harper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: What to look for in a battery charger?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Chinese EV Not As Pictured,comments
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Magnecharge Gone?
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Standard Public Charging Station
by Jon Knepher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Chinese EV Not As Pictured,comments
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) >BMS cost<
by "EV'r up LATE" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Electric Scooters Customized
by "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Gliders (part 3)
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Standard Public Charging Station
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: What to look for in a battery charger?
by Lesley Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Charging Station
by "James Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Charging Station
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
21) Heads-up Dash Display
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Standard Public Charging Station
by "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Inspired Corporation's Product - Part 2 (long, but please read!)
by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Li Ion Batteries
by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Standard Public Charging Station
by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Solectria for sale ... or not?
by Don Buckshot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Charging Station, stuff.
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I've also seen it in Sunset and American Scientist. Notice the fine print.
Bruce Tucker
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 7:28 PM
Subject: Science News Toyota advertisement.
> There was a back page ad in Science News Showing the Rav4, Ecom and the
> Prius. 50 car test program was being touted. Seems they want to be the
> green car company. Sorry 50 cars won't do it. Lawrence Rhodes........
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 25 Feb 2003 at 13:48, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> Just submit your proposal and they will respond.
Anybody have any guesses as to what the response will be?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> ----- Message from [EMAIL PROTECTED] ---------
> A new AVCON powerpak is about $1000
> (but I hear they are raising their prices)
> http://geocities.com/evcharging/images/avconpowerpak.jpg
I got mine a several months ago for $350, with a 25 foot cable.
> I do not recommend the evi ics-200. It has too much
> circuity 'not' to give power. It complains, and has
> a hissy fit with any charger that is not power factor
> corrected. Only the charger that the now unavailable
> production EVs used, or a PFC charger from
> manzanitamicro.com will work on an ics-200.
IMHO, It is a good thing to know if your power factor is far enough off to trip
it! I know my home inverter would not like it if my car's power factor
correction went wrong. I'd rather have the charge head 'tell me' than have the
house go dark from the inverter shutting down... But, I don't want to pay that
much for one...
> The AVCON powerpak and DS-50 do not have this
> circuitry to complain and not give power. Both work
> well with PFC or non-PFC chargers. I have tested
> them with a zivan NG5, PFC-20, and PFC-50. An
> AVCON powerpak and DS-50 operate like on a breaker.
The advantages of the EVII DS-50 over powerpak may be worth it for some: Charge
disable/delay pin (ground to disable/delay). Delayed power fail recovery --
don't burn up your inverter with quick repeated overloads. GFCI trip restart --
for that occasional erroneous GFCI trip from your ham radio too close to the
charge head.
> But with CARB dropping EVs, the automakers
> fat-n-happy with the president's support (getting
> their campaign fund's worth), and no new public
> AVCONs being installed (least not in my area),
> why would you want an AVCON?
If an employer wants to meet NEC 625, they 'have' to use the Avcon; or rather
can't use a standard 14-50. Has anyone actually seen this enforced? My
employer put in a twistlock CS6364/5 instead of a 14-50 citing a different
section of the code (something about a hazardous/wet location); they said 625
would only be a problem if they caught me plugging in, wink...
> The biggest failure I have seen on public chargers
> came from vandalism. AVCON male handles pried
> out, side guides broken off, and the handle cord
> yanked out of its case. I have seen inductive
> paddles that have had their cords yanked, and the
> paddle burnt by cigarette lighters to the point
> where the plastic has melted and the paddle won't
> insert.
The Avcon deals with being dropped better than the inductive paddles. I drop
my avcon box and connector all the time; I've been told if I drop the SPI on my
TAL it will crack right open, and just the paddle part is more $ than the whole
avcon.
I also find the Avcon connector by far the easiest to use; especially over a 14-
50 or CS6364/5. It connects without much resistance and stays put. It's
pretty entertaining to watch me insert/remove a tight new CS6364/5 in the
pouring rain in dress shoes on smooth concrete... :)
Just my opinions...
Jon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In the greater Phoenix area there are probably 20-30 Public Charging
Stations. Most have a combination of Hughes and Avcon, or, Avcon and
EVI-100. Some are setup as 2 Kiosk's with all three types. A few are
only EVI-100 and many that are at business are only Hughes.
The EVI-100 certainly meets the electrical codes. That shouldn't be an
issue.
The EVI-100 in the picture has 120V-20A and 230V-40A. The dark round
circle between the GFCI breaker is the 120V-20 single receptacle. The
GFCI protects both the 230V and the 120V. The circuit breaker for the
120v receptacle is underneath the box. The selector switch at the top
left is to select 120V-OFF-230V. The 230V breaker of course is nowhere
in sight, but level 2 charging is 230V-40A. You would need SOME control
over your charger. The enclosure is weatherproof and must also meet
code.
And as an added point: It may be a simple matter to fool the Avcon or
EVI into believing you have a neutral, but you cannot have a ground
fault. You can charge in a driving rain... as long as you don't overtax
the circuit, (50A), or have a ground fault more than about 50ma.
IMHO the EVI-100 is inexpensive, not proprietry, universal and if
installed and used correctly, as safe as any other. Plus it would be
difficult to vandalize it to the point that it would be unusable.
Jim
93 Dodge TEVan (with a ground fault)
Jim Coate wrote:
The MCS-100 looks nice to me. Any charging infrastructure would be nice
here on the east coast, but especially one that has an ordinary plug as
the price of admission.
Its a little hard to tell from the picture, but is there a third outlet
in the middle and some sort of on/off at the top? Ideally it would have
a reset available right on the box, rather than tripping a breaker in a
basement somewhere which will never get reset. I'd hate to be plan on
getting power somewhere only to arrive and find it was off and no one
around to fix it.
Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Perhaps the EV community needs to bring back the
> evi mcs-100 EV charging head
> http://geocities.com/evcharging/images/mcs100wall.jpg
>
> The mcs-100 was a small wall or post mountable
> box that had a 14-50 outlet. The 220VAC power (two
> hots and a ground) would not be available unless a
> signal between the unused neutral and ground was
> sensed to engage the power relay.
>
> A very simple resistor and diode circuit was all
> that was needed to turn on the power at the 14-50
> outlet. The unit also has a 5-20 duplex outlet for
> 120 VAC charging
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would not consider 16 gauge wire flopping around in a battery compartment
a "good habit." You are lucky that only the regs got fried and not the
technician.
You should handle only one wire at a time and no ends should ever flop
around. Hold one end of the wire you are installing (on the insulated part)
while connecting the first end of the wire to the intended terminal. Then
hook up the other end of that wire. By doing this, there is never more than
one live wire end, and that end is under your control and not flopping
around in the battery compartment.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 1:34 PM
Subject: Re: Waterproffing and insulating regulators and such.
> I actully blow them mostly by brushing the contacts
> against another battery or such. If I have to service them move them
around
> or take them off to replace a battey I get into trouble with the 16 gauge
> wire flopping around and hitting something.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was running from memory of what was said at a sjeaa
meeting. I checked the avcon powerpak url I had,
but that site is disfunctional.
Your POST and an email chat with Nick, has corrected
my POST to a lower, much more affordable price for the
AVCON powerpak.
This only strengthens why buy an evi ics-200 (new or used)?
The powerpak that Otmar installed in front of his home,
exposed to the weather, dogs, kids, and other traffic,
has stood up well and works jsut fine (so well so, it is
a local EV favorite watering hole).
I pray someone in the EV community is preparing to offer
a low cost box similar to the mcs-100. It has the 6kw
14-50 outlet and the 1kw 5-20 outlets any EV could want
(well except me, I always wnat more power).
Thanks Ed for the updated avcon link. I will replace my
funky one with yours.
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
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--- Begin Message ---
I think this is a neat idea. If you get the kit car maker in on the
deal, they could weld in the battery racks. It wouldn't be hard as
they are welding the frame anyway.
--- "Christian T. Kocmick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If you think of what Solectria did with the gliders they got from
> GM as a
> high end kit-car, then the Cobra starts making lots of sense. Just
> add EV
> parts in lieu of ICE and Voila! The EV Cobra Racer. (I know its
> more
> complicated than that. : -) )
> Christian
=====
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Where oh where has www.magnecharge.com gone?
-Sam Harper
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--- Begin Message ---
In my tests, the starting battery loses 3% capacity per cycle but starts out
with 12% more capacity.
The fourth cycle is the tradeoff point. After that, the deep cycle battery
has more capacity although the impedance of the cranking battery is still
better for a while. I would have to look back on the report to see how long
it took to degrade to the deep cycle impedance value.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 4:17 PM
Subject: Re: What to look for in a battery charger?
> Lesley Walker wrote:
> > The rules say you have to use lead-acid. Plus, how much would it cost
> > to do that? This is a high school team I'm working with.
>
> Aha! Then use starting batteries. They have a very short cycle life, but
> will give you more amphours per pound. For example, Optima Red Tops, or
> whatever you can get there as a "premium" starting battery.
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 7:56 PM
Subject: Re: Chinese EV Not As Pictured
> I have an issue of Chinese electric vehicle magazine (I let John
> Wayland have it) which features photos taken at OMSI lot in Portland
> during EV awareness day and placed on private web sites by owners of
> the pictures. Overall lot is visible, close up photo of John's Heavy
> Metal garden tractor and other people I personally know. So this stuff
> gets in print and published, not only appears on the web site.
>
Hi EVerybody, Chinese Friends, Too!
I would say it's a sincere offer of flattery, that they would show
interest! More than on our shores. BTW is the magazine in Chinese? Yeah?
Silly question, but doesn't hurt to ask.Along the same vein, used to
subscribe to " Japanese Railway Engineering" which, lucky for me WAS in
english. Lottsa great techy articles on building the Bullet Train.
Canya subscribe? Maybe were being read in China? Nice thought. Maybe THEY
would fill a need here, build EV's for us. Nobody ELSE will. We all laughed
at the Toyota Toyopet, 40 years ago, VW Beatle, and Yugo. China is trying to
clean up their air, and they don't hafta put up with the US oposition,
because it could hurt somebody in the pocketbook. Our new batteries are
,looks like,will be be Chinese. Won't take them long to put attractive
wheels around them.There you are. US carbuilders will try to keep them out,
as they did the Citicar, See"Lost Cord" book.China has money to carry
through,especialy if they cancell their Space program, and if they DID bring
an attractive useful car here, I would be in their cheering section. Hey
Guyz? Need a CT dealer? Sort of thing. But like the Riva, they can't make
enough of them.Why can't ya get a Riva here? The're too busy filling their
own market to sell here, for now. Becides, the new car, will surely have a
quaint, cool name<g>Thunder Sky? Naa , taken,, Thunderbolt? Something
uniquely Chinese.Red Flag is out, taken.Same for Iron Rooster, their RR.
> If they remove it quickly, you no longer have bases to complain.
> Then they snag someone else's picture.
>
Cuz they don't have any of their own, yet!
> With hard copy issues it's impossible to recall and one may have
> better case.
>
> But, this is China, I doubt you can enforce anything. Copyrights
> are laughed at, much less respected. Remember $10 best Microsoft
> and Adobe software from China?
> Yup.What do they have that WE would want to steal?Yet. Be a differant
story if we made money on stealing their technology. The howl would be heard
through out the UN.
Not only do we give away the store, we pay them to take it away! THAT'S
with EVerybody, not meaning to diss folks in China.
> Rick wrote:
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 4:22 PM
> > Subject: Chinese EV Not As Pictured
> >
> > > It has recently been brought to my attention that there is a web site
> > > purporting to carry a news story about a high performance EV under
> > > development in China. The site in question is:
> > >
> > > http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200112/17/eng20011217_86842.shtml
> > >
> > > As you may recognize, the photo at the top of the story, although
badly
> > > distorted, is the electric Aztec built by Electro Automotive. This
photo
> > > was stolen from our web site and used without permission. Electro
> > > Automotive and this car have absolutely no connection with any Chinese
EV
> > > project.
> > >
> > > I have written to the web site via their contact form and requested
that
> > > they remove the photo, but they have not done so, nor have they
> > > responded.
Don't feel bad, they havent responded to any of my E mails, and
mine are usually in a positive vein. ANY Chinese outfit.
Since this site seems to be getting picked up and referenced
> > by
> > > other web sites (including one in the UK), my only recourse is to try
to
> > > spread the information that this photo is being used without
permission,
> > > and that there is no connection whatsoever between the our company and
car
> > > and the Chinese project. If you come across any other links to this
site,
> > > please inform me so that I can try to correct the information.
> > >
> > > Thank you.
> > > Shari Prange
> >
> > Not only are you being infringed on, the bottom of the Web site home
page
> > has other "borrowed" images that would lead one to conclude that GM, The
EV
> > Hisotry On-line Museum and Didik Enterprises were also involved with
this
> > project. I smell something brewing. Not sure if it's a fat copyright
case,
> > liable, or potential scam game to try to bilk investment monies.
Maybe just show of EV's out there. I don't think investers would
exactly beat a path to their door, if they had unobtanium rolling stock.
Didn't work here with the Sparrow, ether.
Late nite thoughts
Bob
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--- Begin Message ---
The site is gone.
The product is defunct.
But internet sites are slow to remove dead links
http://search.yahoo.com/bin/search?p=www.magnecharge.com
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=magnecharge
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> ----- Message from [EMAIL PROTECTED] ---------
> Then how do they manage 240V on the public camp grounds / RV parks??
> Without compliance they wouldn't be allowed. Just find what the code
> was, may be it will apply to 14-50 as well.
The code is NFPA NEC Article 625. I have the book at work that I can quote
from on Monday if anyone is interested. As I recall, it must be a unique
connector that can only be used for EV charging - this is what rules out 14-50
being used - as I recall 'a polarized connector not interchangeable with
another
electrical system'. It is unclear to me whether the 14-50 with pilot handshake
on the otherwise neutral and a plastic extrusion preventing a standard 14-50
from connecting qualifies - someone with practical experience should
answer that; the plug would also need covered pins, since all parts made live
must be protected. The cable can be no longer than 25 feet unless it has a
self
retracting cord management. There must be GFCI protection. I think there must
also be an interlock/pilot to engage; something like 'automatic energize and
deenergize'. I think also specified is a method of preventing the vehicle from
starting if the connector is still attached even if unpowered - hence the
magnet in both the avcon and spi's.
The RV parks are fine since they are not EV charging; they do not fall under
NEC 625.
Now, is a receptacle placed for another legal purpose, then used by an EV as an
end device legal? I mean the 14-50 at the RV park is legal. Does the plug
itself become illegal when we plug into it, or are we illegal for having an EV
with a 14-50 hanging off of it? Hmmm.
Jon
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--- Begin Message ---
Some of my colleagues just got back from Okinawa. They said they had these
cool little cars with 8 inch wheels on them just like a golf car but much
nicer. They reported that the entire island had a maximum speed limit of
about 35 MPH and those things were everywhere. They never go close enough to
see it they were electric.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 9:56 PM
Subject: Re: Chinese EV Not As Pictured,comments
> Hi EVerybody, Chinese Friends, Too!
> I would say it's a sincere offer of flattery, that they would show
> interest! More than on our shores. BTW is the magazine in Chinese? Yeah?
> Silly question, but doesn't hurt to ask.Along the same vein, used to
> subscribe to " Japanese Railway Engineering" which, lucky for me WAS in
> english. Lottsa great techy articles on building the Bullet Train.
>
> Canya subscribe? Maybe were being read in China? Nice thought. Maybe
THEY
> would fill a need here, build EV's for us. Nobody ELSE will. We all
laughed
> at the Toyota Toyopet, 40 years ago, VW Beatle, and Yugo. China is trying
to
> clean up their air, and they don't hafta put up with the US oposition,
> because it could hurt somebody in the pocketbook. Our new batteries are
> ,looks like,will be be Chinese. Won't take them long to put attractive
> wheels around them.There you are. US carbuilders will try to keep them
out,
> as they did the Citicar, See"Lost Cord" book.China has money to carry
> through,especialy if they cancell their Space program, and if they DID
bring
> an attractive useful car here, I would be in their cheering section. Hey
> Guyz? Need a CT dealer? Sort of thing. But like the Riva, they can't make
> enough of them.Why can't ya get a Riva here? The're too busy filling their
> own market to sell here, for now. Becides, the new car, will surely have a
> quaint, cool name<g>Thunder Sky? Naa , taken,, Thunderbolt? Something
> uniquely Chinese.Red Flag is out, taken.Same for Iron Rooster, their RR.
>
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Hi All,
I'm a little curious, what would someone be willing to pay for a basic unit
that would balance for example, a 10 string pack. It could be used to
balance on the way up (charge) and down (discharge) and could be used for
standby too. It would divert current from any batteries that are fully
charged to the batteries still trying to get to full charge. Since it is
isolated, the current diverted to the slower charging batteries is in
parallel to that which is supplied by the charger. It should shorten the end
of charge time, since the charge current is not being dissipated.
It would provide about 150mV/A (hoping to reduce this in the near future)
between any batteries in the string, and be isolated from each battery.
As far as I know, it's operation is benign to charge algorithms, doesn't
mind equalization if needed, and it requires no maintenance and should work
with pulse chargers with a few additional components.
Battery monitoring would be optional. This is just a bare bones unit to keep
the pack in line...
Options would be selecting when to balance the string (remote on/off), and
extra isolated unregulated outputs for accessories.
It is better suited for batteries in a common enclosure (although not
necessary, only for battery temperature's sake).
Consider a $/battery figure to keep things on a even playing field.
Your comments are appreciated.
Bryan moving from San Jose
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http://ledlights.home.att.net/how.htm
This site belongs to a fellow who has modified his Rascal Scooters
with sound equipment, lights, lots of LEDs and other electronic/electrical
doodads. There are lots of pictures. You might find this site interesting
even if you aren't into scooters for the disabled.
Tom Shay
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 2003-02-25 at 19:57, Sam Harper wrote:
> As I continue my train of thought, I've begun to agree that Li-Ions
> will not do for a first commercial EV. I have begun talking with the
> guys over at Marathon in reference to their NiCads, and I'll give SAFT
> a call tomorrow (though I know I'll hear "expensive" and "quantity). I
> still believe that an AC drive system will perform better, but this
> goes back to the personal opinion. I've been looking around at
> kit-cars and can't find one that appeases me, although I like the idea
> of doing a batch of EV shelby cobra 427s :) Now on to the topic at
> hand, gliders. What are the chances that a modern day car manufacturer
> will sell rolling gliders?
Chances? None, nada, zip.
It's a liability thing. Modern cars are required to have certain safety
features like airbags. The sensors for air bags are 'tuned' if you will
to the vehicle design, structure, weight distribution. Once you convert
the vehicle designed to an ICE engine to electric these sensors might or
might not function properly. A parking lot fender bender might set of
the airbags or a head-on collision might not.
The consumer won't be able to get much from a fledgling EV company but
could get millions from the company that produced the glider. Weight
this potential law suit against the piddling profits from selling the
gliders and guess which way they are going to go.
Consider this example. A while back a kid was riding his new bicycle at
night with no lights and got hit by a car. Now the manual that came
with the bike stated that if you are going to ride at night you need to
add lights to the bicycle.
The jury decided that they didn't state this "strongly enough" and
awarded the kids family 4 million dollars.
> I can understand why little old Geo sold
> units to Solectria, but since the consolidation, I cant see a Honda or
> a GM releasing cars when they know they're going to be sold as EVs and
> directly compete.
You're not competing if you're buying their cars in the first place.
Besides a company that sells hundreds of thousands (million?) of cars a
year ain't gonna care about a company that sells a couple hundred.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 2003-02-25 at 23:27, Jon Knepher wrote:
> > ----- Message from [EMAIL PROTECTED] ---------
> > Then how do they manage 240V on the public camp grounds / RV parks??
> > Without compliance they wouldn't be allowed. Just find what the code
> > was, may be it will apply to 14-50 as well.
>
> The code is NFPA NEC Article 625. I have the book at work that I can quote
> from on Monday if anyone is interested. As I recall, it must be a unique
> connector that can only be used for EV charging - this is what rules out 14-50
> being used - as I recall 'a polarized connector not interchangeable with
> another
This Article only applies between a fixed installation charger and the
EV. Portable chargers don't fall under NEC's domain and are not
regulated by this Article. As I recall it even specifically states that
they are not covered.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
> Lesley Walker wrote:
> > The rules say you have to use lead-acid. Plus, how much would it cost
> > to do that? This is a high school team I'm working with.
>
> Aha! Then use starting batteries. They have a very short cycle life, but
> will give you more amphours per pound. For example, Optima Red Tops, or
> whatever you can get there as a "premium" starting battery.
Thanks. I remember Justin pointed me at the idea of using SLAs, and I
had it in the back of my mind, but I hadn't got around to looking at the
numbers. I will now do so. :-)
Many thanks for your comments and suggestions.
PS: I also like your "PC EV" idea, very interesting concept.
--
Lesley Walker, Wellington, New Zealand
LRW at clear.net.nz
"Do you like cat?"
"Yes, I quite like cats."
"Leg or breast?"
Neverwhere, by Neil Gaiman
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--- Begin Message ---
Question,
I'm in the process of convincing my grounds crew to install a charging
station for my (soon to be my) EV. Does anyone know where I could purchase
(at a reasonable price) a "genuine" charging station pole? It needs to be
220 non inductive (a 110 outlet as well would be nice)
James
James F. Jarrett
Information Systems Associate
Charlotte Country Day School
(704)943-4562
Sure it's user-friendly...if you know what you're doing.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For California it's the Avcon, with the least expensive interface being the
Avcon PowerPak ($380). Can be mounted to the wall or on a post.
More information at www.avconev.com or email [EMAIL PROTECTED] or call
877-423-8725 / 800-433-7642.
If you get one, you will need to install an Avcon inlet in your EV (~$160),
but it provides a safe, clean connection.
BR,
Ed Thorpe
-----Original Message-----
From: James Jarrett [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 5:27 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Charging Station
Question,
I'm in the process of convincing my grounds crew to install a charging
station for my (soon to be my) EV. Does anyone know where I could purchase
(at a reasonable price) a "genuine" charging station pole? It needs to be
220 non inductive (a 110 outlet as well would be nice)
James
James F. Jarrett
Information Systems Associate
Charlotte Country Day School
(704)943-4562
Sure it's user-friendly...if you know what you're doing.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's what I have, a single display 2linesX80 characters where the
windshield and dash meet (actually a vacuum tube flourescent display by
Noritake) (Digi-Key) which displays state of charge, kWh-used, amps, volts,
batt temp, motor temp, controller temp. It switches over to charge mode
during charge and displays all charging parameters, charge time, temp, batt
volts, line amps, line volts. A second display on the passenger side using
another Motorola uP is the battery scanner which displays all batteries and
blinks if one drops <1V below another signifying a bad cell or connection
and havn't had a breakdown in the last 110k miles. This has saved a lot of
tennis shoes. Note: last vehicle I used an serial IEEE display but it was
$300 instead of the $100 Noritake but was easier to program.
The existing guages in the Geo Tracker are faked out so they still wiggle
and look like they're doing something, gas guage tied to pwm uP, H-C temp
guage tied to motor temp offset to work with ADC range. (I hate guages that
are limp on the peg).
Lee wrote:
snip.>
> My idea is to carry this one step further. There *IS* no gas guage!
> Instead, you have a single VGA monitor that is used to display your fuel
> gauge, speedometer, radio dial settings -- in fact, it displays
> EVERYTHING!
>
> The "gas guage" only exists as a software program that takes information
> like battery type, number, voltage, current in/out, etc. and computes a
> state of charge, which is displayed on the screen.
>
> > A 100k mile life is an unfounded worry with an EV. So why adopt the
> > second item above? Build it to last forever. Even if it becomes
> > obsolete, it's not an environmental burden like an old ICE would be.
>
> Two reasons. First, because designing it to last means the parts are
> more expensive. It's cheaper to have inexpensive throwaway modules that
> can be used up, and then recycled.
>
> Second, because the technology is changing so fast. In a few years,
> something better will come along, and you wouldn't WANT to replace the
> original. If the hard drive failed in my PC, would I *want* to replace
> it with the same small size? No; I'd replace it with a bigger one (which
> costs less than the OEM part anyway).
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> If you swap out all the parts except the body, you don't
> really have the *same* car anymore.
>
> Good concept but if the a steering wheel last 3,000,000,000
> miles and you attach piece by piece another car *to* it, you
> don't say you have the same car.
>
> Of course, this extreme is just to illustrate my point.
>
> In industry if unibody is the same, legally it's the same
> car. Make unibody with composite fiber (like boat) and you
> can claim that your car lasts many millions of miles (after
> swapping entire chassy/drive train many times over, but this
> is "minor" detail :-) ).
>
> Another issue - who'd want to drive the same car for whole
> life? Working truck is different, you often don't even get to
> choose. It must work, not to please you or be a status/image.
I don't think anyone cares if they retire the same car they started out
with. They've had the benefit of reliable, easy-to-maintain
transportation for a very long time. That's what counts.
You're right, many (most?) people wouldn't want to keep a car that long.
That's OK. When they decide to move up, the value of the old ride would
be much higher than today's typical ICE vehicle. The person who buys it
would be confident it will provide many years of the same reliable
service. That's why VW Beetles always had such stunningly high resale
value - even if the previous owner was amazingly stupid and neglectful,
it could still be fixed easily and cheaply.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Jon Knepher
> Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 10:27 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Standard Public Charging Station
>
>
> > ----- Message from [EMAIL PROTECTED] ---------
> > Then how do they manage 240V on the public camp grounds / RV parks??
> > Without compliance they wouldn't be allowed. Just find what the code
> > was, may be it will apply to 14-50 as well.
>
> The code is NFPA NEC Article 625. I have the book at work that I
> can quote
> from on Monday if anyone is interested.
Jon,
Yes, please quote from it. This is exactly what we are looking for.
Thanks.
Ed Ang
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--- Begin Message ---
I believe the Nissan Altra was equipped with Li-Ions. Does anyone know of
their experience with them?
Dave Davidson
Laurel, MD
1993 Dodge TEVan
From: Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: EV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Inspired Corporation's Product - Part 2 (long, but please
read!)
Date: 25 Feb 2003 15:52:17 -0700
<sigh> never mind Victor.
Just out of curiosity, exactly which cars ARE "equipped with LiIons"?
On Tue, 2003-02-25 at 15:19, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Sure. If you will go to the burnt car dumpster, you can honestly
> report that 100% of cars you saw were burned in fire. So?
>
> I'm not saying having a fire extinguisher in a car is a bad idea.
>
> You don't look for unrelated ICE car fire statistics, you should look
> for how many *more* (percentage) cars equipped with LiIons burn up
> than regular cars. I bet it's less (because of no gasoline), but
> neither you or I or perhaps anyone have statistics on that.
>
> Victor
>
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, 2003-02-24 at 17:17, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> > > Lock Hughes wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > > -Lithium-Ion pack, say around 22kw capacity
> > > >
> > > > Fire supression system?
> > > >
> > > > Lock
> > >
> > > I thought gasoline burns far easier than batteries, yet don't
> > > see many fire extinguishers in ICEs. Wonder why.
> > >
> >
> > Really? Huh... I always keep at least one fire extinguisher in my
> > cars. I guess you must be right though, when I was going to the
> > insurance auctions about 5% of the cars there were "total burn",
nothing
> > left but burned up, rusty metal.
>
--
EVDL
_________________________________________________________________
Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Got this as part of an advertisement for a battery conference. Looks like a
different tactic is being taken to kill the Li-ions.
Dave Davidson
Laurel, Maryland
1993 Dodge TEVan
------------------------
On January 1, 2003, new testing requirements for all lithium and lithium ion
cells and batteries went into effect pursuant to the International Civil
Aviation Organization's (ICAO) Technical Instructions and International Air
Transport Association's (IATA) Dangerous Goods Regulations. According to
George Kerchner, manager of The CapAnalysis Group and a presenter at
Advancements in Battery Charging, Conditioning, Monitoring & Testing,
"lithium and lithium ion cells and batteries designed and manufactured after
January 1, 2003 must be tested pursuant to the UN Manual of Tests and
Criteria prior to being offered for air transport and shipped
internationally."
"There are eight lithium cell and battery tests under the UN Manual of Tests
and Criteria that are often referred to as 'T1 through T8,' said Kerchner.
"Although the tests are similar in many respects to those contained in such
battery standards as UL1642, UL2054, and IEC 61960, some major differences
do exist. As a result of the significant number of cells and batteries that
must be tested, the testing requires a minimum of three to four weeks to
complete at a cost of up to $15,000."
_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
on 2/25/03 11:39 AM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List at
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Q1) Could NEMA 14-50 be made to meet the codes?
As there are presently about 50 14-50s located at every KOA Campground (and
all other RV parks nationwide, I would assume they already meet code
requirements.
And, gulp, they're actually mounted OUTSIDE (exposed to the elements and
everything!).
I have never read or heard a thing about any problems associated with the
14-50 standard at RV parks. If Ma and Pa Kettle can avoid that electrocution
hazard (gasp) as they plug in their Winnebago, I'm confident EV'ers should
be able to muddle our way through.
J. Marvin Campbell
Culver City, CA
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--- Begin Message ---
Time has come for me to "fish or cut bait"...
I have this great 1996 Solectria Force with NiMH batteries. My wife and
I have driven it for a couple of years and it is a great car.
A couple of the batteries have died and Solectria cannot help me get
this car running again unless I buy $15,000 worth of new Ovonics
batteries or pay them the same amount to convert it to PbA or ?.
The car is still at Solectria and waiting for me to bring it home. I
can't afford to put another $15k into it.
I am at the point of deciding to sell it as is or doing the battery
conversion myself (with the help of Mike Chancey and Jim Donovan) here
in Kansas City.
Here is the question: Is anyone interested in buying this car as is? The
AC drive alone would be worth a lot.
The car can be seen on the EV photo album at
www.austinev.org/evalbum/300.html or at Solectria, near Boston.
It still looks like the pictures show it there. The A/C works well as
does the heat, preheat system, e-meter and everything else. There is a
brand new Stereo CD player and speakers.
The car actually only weighs 2250 lb., and I have only drive it up to 65
MPH. This is a really nice EV, I'm just not sure I am up to doing the
conversion to PbA or NiCad as Tom Hudson has done.
I have always really wanted a EV pickup like Paul G. "Neon" has built.
I hope this is not too far off the purpose of this list.
I have followed the list and learned alot in the past 2 years. I will
still be driving an EV if I sell this one.
Don Buckshot
Kansas City, MO
816-582-6891 mobile, anytime
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: James Jarrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 8:27 AM
Subject: Charging Station
> Question,
>
> I'm in the process of convincing my grounds crew to install a charging
> station for my (soon to be my) EV. Does anyone know where I could
purchase
> (at a reasonable price) a "genuine" charging station pole? It needs to be
> 220 non inductive (a 110 outlet as well would be nice)
>
Hi James;
At the risk of being over simplistic, howbout a pressure treated 4by 4
dug into the ground enough to be sturdy, the cables run up to it under
ground, a wooden " Shelter" like a bird feeder to keep the rain off the
plugs? I'm using a tree, already in place, for this service. Hidden in my
little box shelter is a , of COURSE, 120 volt plug, and a 50 amp range plug,
and becide it, a newer 4 prong range plug, in which us EAA, New England
chapter decided we'd standardise on. I use the 3 piner for my Blue Box, Bad
Boy charger. The whole outfit is wired with #6 underground cable to a 60 amp
breaker, in the garage. No nuicence tripping here! But it duz trip in a
short circus condition.
I can see the electrical purests shaking their heads here, but it works
for me, the center pin on my car's plug, is grounded to the car's body, to
cut down on those non isolated jolts, wet ground and stuff like that. As
I',m still using a variac and rectifyer for overnite charging, on 120 volts.
James. Can ya park next to a building where they can run power to a
wall outlet on the wall of the structure? Then ya don't hafta put in a post
or run underground cable. Well, assuning that the mentioned building has
power in it. At work, where I charge they just happened to have mounted an
all weather outlet on the circuit breaker box outsode, for the Mobile
Offices that they are using, Trailers, to everybody else. I didn't ASK for
it, it appeared when the trailers were installed! In all weather I plugitin,
no problem. Has a ground fault resettable outlet plug. It died and I
replaced it with same thing from True Value, Ya know would trip even if you
LOOKED at it!Or plugged in same car that had been feeeding there for years,
and it trips when ya walk away. Happy to donate a new one!
Botton line. Why dous it have to be so complicated to feel EV's All most
of us need is that ubquitous outside outlet that is in place most
EVerywhere. Coke machine at the gas station, concvenience store and the
like. Sometimes outside lighting poles have outlets! Sniff around! On the
Wals at Wal Mart, even.With their bottom line, didn't feel guilty about
letting them charge me outside as well as inside.
Plugging ideas an' thoughts
Bob
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