EV Digest 2620
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Solectria for sale ... or not?
by Adam Kuehn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: BMS cost (was Re: LIN bus link)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) FW: FYI
by "Humphrey, Timothy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Solectria for sale ... or not?
by Adam Kuehn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: BMS cost (was Re: LIN bus link)
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Standard Public Charging Station
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Li Ion Batteries
by "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Gliders (part 3)
by Sam Harper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff
by "Tim Clevenger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Charging Station
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) (Please Vote Now) RE: Standard Public Charging Station
by "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Charging Station
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: BMS cost (was Re: LIN bus link)
by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Public Charging
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) DC/DC
by Seth Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Public Charging (in Phoenix)
by Mason Convey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: BMS cost (was Re: LIN bus link)
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: BMS cost (was Re: LIN bus link)
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Public Charging
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Kits to Consider (part 4?)
by Sam Harper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: New Product - AC Drive System
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: BMS cost (was Re: LIN bus link)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
23) RE: Money philosophy (was Re: BMS cost)
by "George Tylinski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: EV PC
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Charging Station, stuff.
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: What to look for in a battery charger?
by Lesley Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) OT: Lots of spam recently?
by Richard Bebbington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Chinese EV Not As Pictured,comments
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: OT: Lots of spam recently?
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Don-
I might be interested, but I'll have to check a few things out first.
Is the car at all drivable in its current condition? What would your
"as is" asking price be? (I'd have to pay about $500 to have it
shipped to NC in addition.) What was the car's practical range when
the batteries were new, and how many total miles did you get out of
them before the first one failed? How many total miles are on the
car?
Would it be OK to speak with Solectria about the current state of the
car and what they might want to do to get it back on the road?
(Since the car is there now, I assume they have someone there who
could talk to me intelligently about it.)
Thanks,
-Adam Kuehn
Durham, NC
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Time has come for me to "fish or cut bait"...
I have this great 1996 Solectria Force with NiMH batteries. My wife and
I have driven it for a couple of years and it is a great car.
A couple of the batteries have died and Solectria cannot help me get
this car running again unless I buy $15,000 worth of new Ovonics
batteries or pay them the same amount to convert it to PbA or ?.
The car is still at Solectria and waiting for me to bring it home. I
can't afford to put another $15k into it.
I am at the point of deciding to sell it as is or doing the battery
conversion myself (with the help of Mike Chancey and Jim Donovan) here
in Kansas City.
Here is the question: Is anyone interested in buying this car as is? The
AC drive alone would be worth a lot.
The car can be seen on the EV photo album at
www.austinev.org/evalbum/300.html or at Solectria, near Boston.
It still looks like the pictures show it there. The A/C works well as
does the heat, preheat system, e-meter and everything else. There is a
brand new Stereo CD player and speakers.
The car actually only weighs 2250 lb., and I have only drive it up to 65
MPH. This is a really nice EV, I'm just not sure I am up to doing the
conversion to PbA or NiCad as Tom Hudson has done.
I have always really wanted a EV pickup like Paul G. "Neon" has built.
I hope this is not too far off the purpose of this list.
I have followed the list and learned alot in the past 2 years. I will
still be driving an EV if I sell this one.
Don Buckshot
Kansas City, MO
816-582-6891 mobile, anytime
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart writes:
So, I was simply speculating on just how inexpensively a BMS could be
made. It seems to me that one could get 90% of the benefit for about 10%
of the cost. All it has to do is a) limit maximum battery voltage, and
b) tell the charger to turn itself down or off when the first battery
hits its limiting voltage.
I would love to have a simple BMS such as the above or even simpler. I would
go for one that just limited the maximum battery voltage. Nothing but just
stop my 8 volt battery from going above say 10 volts or something I could
change by trimming a pot, flipping a switch or buying new diodes. I could
add a switch to turn each one off to equalize if need be so each BMS module
is an island upon itself.
Turning down the charger is nice but then you have to have a charger that
will communicate with your BMS, or if you just shut if off you need to have
all the BMS modules able to communicate that. This might mean the BMS needed
to handle more current and you would waste electricity if you were far out
of balance but having twice the diodes or heatsink per module would seem
cheaper/easier to install.
If there was a simple design that was only a few dollars in parts to do this
I would build the piece in proper enclosures and install it right now.
Mark Hastings
'83 S-10 EV Blazer
www.geocities.com/evblazer
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just received this link from a co-worker, somebody on this list will find it
useful.
> http://www.electricmotorwarehouse.com/useful_formulas.htm
>
>
Stay Charged!
Hump
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry, that was supposed to be a private response. I hate the munged
headers on this list, but I hate even more that some lists I
subscribe to do it this way, and some use private reply. I'd
probably remember if everyone did it the same way.
Again, my apologies,
--
-Adam Kuehn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Lee Hart writes:
> > So, I was simply speculating on just how inexpensively a BMS could be
> > made. It seems to me that one could get 90% of the benefit for about 10%
> > of the cost. All it has to do is a) limit maximum battery voltage, and
> > b) tell the charger to turn itself down or off when the first battery
> > hits its limiting voltage.
>
> I would love to have a simple BMS such as the above or even simpler. I would
> go for one that just limited the maximum battery voltage. Nothing but just
> stop my 8 volt battery from going above say 10 volts or something I could
> change by trimming a pot, flipping a switch or buying new diodes. I could
> add a switch to turn each one off to equalize if need be so each BMS module
> is an island upon itself.
> Turning down the charger is nice but then you have to have a charger that
> will communicate with your BMS, or if you just shut if off you need to have
> all the BMS modules able to communicate that. This might mean the BMS needed
> to handle more current and you would waste electricity if you were far out
> of balance but having twice the diodes or heatsink per module would seem
> cheaper/easier to install.
> If there was a simple design that was only a few dollars in parts to do this
> I would build the piece in proper enclosures and install it right now.
>
> Mark Hastings
> '83 S-10 EV Blazer
> www.geocities.com/evblazer
That is the EXACT concept behind the Rudman Regulator MK1., Then feature
creap got me into the Mk2, and needing data for adjusting the charge
profile is now getting me into the MK3 digital regulator.
OF the thoussands of Regulators that I have made, I am not sure I made a
profit... Doing a $10 Reg is out of the picture, there is not enough
demand, or market. At $30 there is slim hope at $40, it looks good. at
$50, and a digi Reg, I hope I can cover the hardware costs, Software
development is just going to cost me my time, or more Royalties to the
developer.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Edward Ang wrote:
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Behalf Of Jon Knepher
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 10:27 PM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: Standard Public Charging Station
> >
> >
> > > ----- Message from [EMAIL PROTECTED] ---------
> > > Then how do they manage 240V on the public camp grounds / RV parks??
> > > Without compliance they wouldn't be allowed. Just find what the code
> > > was, may be it will apply to 14-50 as well.
> >
> > The code is NFPA NEC Article 625. I have the book at work that I
> > can quote
> > from on Monday if anyone is interested.
>
> Jon,
>
> Yes, please quote from it. This is exactly what we are looking for.
> Thanks.
>
> Ed Ang
Also lets all keep in mind that the NEC 626 is NOT universally accepted
by all states and inspectors. It was rushed through, and has some flakey
wording.
As I recall this was brought in as GM Et. Al slammed us with it's
magnacharger.
If you view the wording with the concept in mind to exclude all non OEM
Evs from public charging centers...it makes more sense.
Fight for the Right to party!
Fight for the right to use a 14-50.
It's what we are going to use one way or another.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It sounds more like another tactic to reduce competition from foreign
countries. Did someone say that the USA is being run by big corporations?
Ed Ang
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Dave Davidson
> Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 7:17 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Li Ion Batteries
>
>
> Got this as part of an advertisement for a battery conference.
> Looks like a
> different tactic is being taken to kill the Li-ions.
>
> Dave Davidson
> Laurel, Maryland
> 1993 Dodge TEVan
>
> ------------------------
>
> On January 1, 2003, new testing requirements for all lithium and
> lithium ion
> cells and batteries went into effect pursuant to the International Civil
> Aviation Organization's (ICAO) Technical Instructions and
> International Air
> Transport Association's (IATA) Dangerous Goods Regulations. According to
> George Kerchner, manager of The CapAnalysis Group and a presenter at
> Advancements in Battery Charging, Conditioning, Monitoring & Testing,
> "lithium and lithium ion cells and batteries designed and
> manufactured after
> January 1, 2003 must be tested pursuant to the UN Manual of Tests and
> Criteria prior to being offered for air transport and shipped
> internationally."
>
> "There are eight lithium cell and battery tests under the UN
> Manual of Tests
> and Criteria that are often referred to as 'T1 through T8,' said
> Kerchner.
> "Although the tests are similar in many respects to those
> contained in such
> battery standards as UL1642, UL2054, and IEC 61960, some major
> differences
> do exist. As a result of the significant number of cells and
> batteries that
> must be tested, the testing requires a minimum of three to four weeks to
> complete at a cost of up to $15,000."
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I like it, and came across it and the MK III, but it just doesnt look
safe. What happens if you roll? What happens if you get rear ended?
-Sam Harper
On Wednesday, February 26, 2003, at 12:13 PM, Humphrey, Timothy wrote:
I know it's a matter of personal taste, but my dream ev kit would be
something like this;
http://www.superformance.com/s1.asp
it's not the most aerodynamic, but I'm not going for max range either.
Stay Charged!
Hump
-----Original Message-----
From: Sam Harper [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 9:58 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Gliders (part 3)
As I continue my train of thought, I've begun to agree that Li-Ions
will not do for a first commercial EV. I have begun talking with the
guys over at Marathon in reference to their NiCads, and I'll
give SAFT
a call tomorrow (though I know I'll hear "expensive" and
"quantity). I
still believe that an AC drive system will perform better, but this
goes back to the personal opinion. I've been looking around at
kit-cars and can't find one that appeases me, although I like
the idea
of doing a batch of EV shelby cobra 427s :) Now on to the topic at
hand, gliders. What are the chances that a modern day car
manufacturer
will sell rolling gliders? I can understand why little old Geo sold
units to Solectria, but since the consolidation, I cant see a
Honda or
a GM releasing cars when they know they're going to be sold
as EVs and
directly compete. I can really only see buying a batch of used
vehicles (fleet? wholesale with a dealers license?) and selling off
the ICE components. An interesting idea might be to buy
something like
an Acura RSX Type-S (Wholesale used around between $14k-$16k)
and sell
the Type-S engines to the import tuner crowd. They go for about $6k
right now (I have a Civic, I wanted to do a swap for the
longest time).
This way you can get a sporty rolling-chassis for just
under $10k that
would be ready for conversion. As for new, what can we do? Until
established I can't see going off and pulling a Tango or a Sparrow,
because the R&D cost is so phenomenal. Comments? Recommendations?
-Sam Harper
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--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: �
Converting ICEs.� It's basically impossible to buy gliders from the
automakers these days so that means converting used cars.� It's hard
enough to sell a $30,000 EV let alone a used one.� That guy up in canada
that is converting the renaults, anybody know how many he has sold?
Hmm.. Maybe somebody needs to talk to Mr. Bricklin...
http://www.forbes.com/business/companies/2002/04/23/0423yugo.html
Just don't call the car, or your company, Yugo.
Tim
_________________________________________________________________
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[ref
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/EVList/message/36550
]
James,
It would be good to know what EV are you driving,
what power does it use, and if there are other places
you would charge at, what power would those have.
You mentioned a pole, but I assume you mean more
than pushing a pole in the ground and pouring a
cement pad. The charging head is what I believe
you are trying to decide on.
What type of charging head you choose depends on what
your needs are and what other EV charging you will use.
If you are a conversion with a 220VAC and 120VAC charging
ability, perhaps a square D box with both a 14-50 and
a 5-20 would suit you.
The AVCON Ed mentioned is not necessarily the standard
because automakers are not making EVs any longer, you are
not in California where having access to free public EV
charging (which uses an AVCON).
There may be a need for the EV community to rid ourselves
of any left over automaker induced EV charging laws that
no longer apply (why specify an inductive TAL4 if there
are no EVs to use them).
Your trailer mentions Charlotte Country which is in
NC. I do not know of any public EV charging in NC
(if someone does, please POST where it is and of what
type).
But the South does have public EV charging in states
that have a Southern Company Utility. Georgia for one.
For local EV contacts:
-your nearest EAA Chapter is COASTAL CAROLINAS EAA
Contact: Jayne Howard 910-457-4383 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4805 E. Southport Supply Rd., Hwy 211, Southport, NC 28461
-there is also the Southern EV group
http://evclubsouth.org
James, please POST the details of your charging needs,
budget constraints, etc.
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have created a simple poll for this purpose. Please vote now. Thank you.
http://www.movingcam.com/ChargingStationPolls.html
Ed Ang
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The square D box with both a 14-50 and a 5-20 I
mentioned can be seen from my evcharging page as
a pdf from square d
http://www.geocities.com/evcharging/level1evcharging.html
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you used the circuit that Lee Hart put in an earlier message and added a
phototransistor you could disable all the regulators in a battery box just
by turning on a light in the box or opening the cover.
Or if the phototransistor was in series with the base of the darlington the
regulator would only work when the light was on.
A small relay could be wired across the power resistor to provide a signal
back to the charger. When ever a relay activates a circuit or motor (for a
motor controlled veriac charger) could drive the charger output down. If
after a minute or two without a relay being active the charger could
increase its output.
I have not tried it but I think it would work.
Lee's circuit, modified.
battery+ ___________________________________
| |
green _|_ > power resistor
LED _\_/_ > (1.5 ohms for
| > ~2 amps max)
| |
| ____| collector
> |/ |
potentiometer >/______________________| |
200 ohms >\ | base | |/ NPN darlington
> |C |\__| power transistor
| \ |/ | (I used MJE1100)
| \>| |\
| >| | emitter
| |\ |
| |E |
| | |
battery- _____|__________|__________________|
Andre' B. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
If something cannot be defined, it does not exist.
Isaac Newton
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 10:12 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: BMS cost (was Re: LIN bus link)
Lee Hart writes:
> So, I was simply speculating on just how inexpensively a BMS could be
> made. It seems to me that one could get 90% of the benefit for about 10%
> of the cost. All it has to do is a) limit maximum battery voltage, and
> b) tell the charger to turn itself down or off when the first battery
> hits its limiting voltage.
I would love to have a simple BMS such as the above or even simpler. I would
go for one that just limited the maximum battery voltage. Nothing but just
stop my 8 volt battery from going above say 10 volts or something I could
change by trimming a pot, flipping a switch or buying new diodes. I could
add a switch to turn each one off to equalize if need be so each BMS module
is an island upon itself.
Turning down the charger is nice but then you have to have a charger that
will communicate with your BMS, or if you just shut if off you need to have
all the BMS modules able to communicate that. This might mean the BMS needed
to handle more current and you would waste electricity if you were far out
of balance but having twice the diodes or heatsink per module would seem
cheaper/easier to install.
If there was a simple design that was only a few dollars in parts to do this
I would build the piece in proper enclosures and install it right now.
Mark Hastings
'83 S-10 EV Blazer
www.geocities.com/evblazer
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Most of the charging stations in the Phoenix area were installed by Arizona
Public Service and Salt River Project. SRP is the 6th largest Electric
Utility in the US. Maybe I'm being naive, but I must "assume" that they are
in compliance as SRP and APS were and are directly involved in formulating
the NFPA - NEC.. which includes article 625.
If they were unsafe in any way, they would never have been installed. The
lawyers would have prevented that, and they have a lot of lawyers.
Of course I'm looking for a method that will work, not seeking things that
won't. If it's legal in Phoenix it should be legal everywhere else. (Except
when it comes to NEC 250-81C)
Jim
'93 Dodge TEVan (w/ ground fault)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All -
I am looking for (or will be in the next few months) a DCP DC/DC
converter. Does anyone have one for sale, used or new? Thanks
Seth
--
QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION
http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/387.html
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--- Begin Message ---
For what it's worth, an overwhelming majority of the public charging
stations in Phoenix were installed (and designed) by Electric
Transportation Engineering Corporation (eTec), www.etecevs.com. APS
and SRP were simply the funding backbone for the stations, hence the
reason why you see their logos plastered all over the stations. I'm
sure APS and SRP left it to eTec to make the calls. Afterall, if a
licensed contractor was to install something unsafe, APS or SRP would
have an easy place to point the finger.
-~-~- mason s. convey -~-~-
website. http://www.1opossum.com
email. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
AOL Messenger. mtnbikeAZ
Yahoo! Messenger. mtnbike_az
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>
> Lee Hart wrote:
> >> remember this was proposed as an el-cheapo balancing system. Not
> >> the best, but one that could be cheap enough so people would
> >> actually buy and install it.
>
> Rich Rudman wrote:
> > Yes, it is exactly what I am trying to build. The entry level that
> > gets the job done. Problem is it's a moving target! And it's still
> > not really clear what is really needed. I THINK, I have understood.
> > But new wrinkles show up every day. As alway, I will try.
>
> I thought you were moving away from the simple Mk1 type regulators, to a
> much more feature-laden but expensive Mk3 type.
>
> To me, there are only two features needed.
>
> 1. Limit max battery voltage (with a resistor).
> 2. Indicate when the regulator is limiting, so the charger can be
> turned down or shut off.
>
> All it really takes to do this is a light bulb and a zener. If the
> battery box is enclosed, a phototransistor tells you when the first one
> starts to conduct.
>
> Everything else is fluff (nice to have, but not necessary :-)
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
Mk1 are not being made nor have been for about 3 years.
Mk2 are being made and shipped, they have some safety features that keep
the Flames in control.
MK3 are rusting on Sheer's desk. We will see how fast they get going
once Sheer is back in the loop.
You have a flaw in your logic. There is no need to tell the charger to
back off as long as the Regs are keeping the battery voltage under
control. They are just doing "thier thing" at this point. Once they
can't keep up and go into thermal cool down, THEN you need to pause the
charger. A better control loop is to have the charger linerally cut back
to keep the hotest Reg just under it's peak temp and dissapating it's
max wattage. On a well ballenced pack of Yts this is just a few minutes
long.
Once you say you need to tell the charger somthing, you've gone from a
stand alone Reg to a system. If you pay for the interface, then you need
to get as much use out of it as possible. The RegBuss has 3 channels.
Hot Reg, LOW Batt, and from the charger, disable reg/kick it up 1.5
volts, for equalization.
Mk3s will use 2 more lines for RXD and TXD data flow. And then the Sky's
the limit. I hope to also support a Analog Reg as well as the Digi reg
on the same bus. So you won't have to have all Digi regs. You should be
able to mix and match. For say, a Digi reg in each battery box, for
local Temps.
I say you need Battery temp and voltage, and which battery you are
measuring. The dissapation, will take care of itself.THE rest is fluff
Feature creap will then drag you into measuring everything, and sending
it down that expensive data buss you have.
Evercells NEED temp data badly in summer conditions. I expect that there
will be dozzens of new Evercell systems once they get here in volume.
This is going to happen and very soon.
We will have Digi Regs by June 03 one way or another.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>
> Lee Hart wrote:
> >> Everything else is fluff (nice to have, but not necessary :-)
>
> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> > Then, everyone would drive city cars :-)
> >
> > When was last time you saw a person who does only
> > what's necessary, not what he/she wants?
>
> If we are talking about a BMS (Battery Management System), then the fact
> is that 90% of EVs have none at all. For whatever reason, their owners
> have decided that all of the available options are too expensive.
>
> So, I was simply speculating on just how inexpensively a BMS could be
> made. It seems to me that one could get 90% of the benefit for about 10%
> of the cost. All it has to do is a) limit maximum battery voltage, and
> b) tell the charger to turn itself down or off when the first battery
> hits its limiting voltage.
>
> Such a BMS wouldn't appeal to you or me; we're engineers, and inclined
> to go perhaps a bit overboard on technology. But, it might to large
> numbers of other EVers who have nothing at all right now.
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
Lee and Victor;
What it boils down to, is a Quality charger and a BMS are entry tickets
for Evercells and Lithium technologies. NiCds also need some help.
You wanna stay with Flooded Lead acid? Water is cheap.
All other battery chemistries will benifit from monitoring and some form
of equalization mechanism.
Wann build lead Sleds?? then don't bother with the advacned gear. Want
range and power, and low maitnece ? Well gotta pay for that.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
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All the EV laws that we have were brewed out of
automaker liability fears. Automakers have no fears
about RVs using 14-50's or 5-20's. Automakers think
EV drivers are more stupid than RV drivers.
The inductive was the ultimate in non metal to metal
contact. A star-trek approach in technology (and cost)
to keep uneducated barefoot grandma from a third world
country from standing in the rain and putting her tongue
on the live wires (I actually heard that said from a
Magnecharge rep at an EVAA EVS conference).
Honda buddy'd up with Ford's decision to go cheaper
(but not by much) with the AVCON.
All automakers poo-poo'd evi's mcs-100, even though evi
CEO (at the time) Micky Oros made a good case that the
KISS (Keep It Simple Solution) mcs-100 design was safe
and low cost (just what a budding EV market would need).
The automakers went their one way to make EVs cost too
much.
The evi mcs-100 would not energize power to the 14-50
unless there was a signal between the unused neutral
and ground. The 5-20 was live, but if you are as
paranoid as an automaker, even that won't do (even
the SF area's BAAQMD rep said to me, 'well what if a
homeless person sticks their finger in the 120VAC
outlet?!?').
The AVCONs we already have are fine for the existing
production EVs. Since no production EVs will be sold,
making the EV drivers to continue to 'jump through
hoops' to satisfy automakers, is moot (unnecessary).
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
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After much searching, here are the kits I believe would be usable in a
production vehicle:
The Gregori GPR (made of unobtanium, but very attractive):
http://www.premierkitcars.com/
modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=11
The Larini by Sculptural Engineering:
http://www.premierkitcars.com/
modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=15
The Vitesse CRX rebody: http://www.vitessesportscar.com/
The very nice, but very expensive Mullen M-11:
http://www.mullenmotorco.com/
The pleasing Ginette G27: http://www.ginettacars.com/
Opinions?
-Sam Harper
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At 01:10 PM 2/21/2003 -0500, Sam Harper wrote:
Hey guys. I'm talking with a manufacturer now, because I want to resell
their AC drive systems. I'm not really doing this to sell product, but I
want to learn more about products, and I think this is a way to do
so. Would people be interested in a drive system with these specs:
Until a price is given, there is no way to tell if anyone is interested.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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Rich Rudman writes:
<snip>
That is the EXACT concept behind the Rudman Regulator MK1., Then feature
creap got me into the Mk2, and needing data for adjusting the charge
profile is now getting me into the MK3 digital regulator.
OF the thoussands of Regulators that I have made, I am not sure I made a
profit... Doing a $10 Reg is out of the picture, there is not enough
demand, or market. At $30 there is slim hope at $40, it looks good. at
$50, and a digi Reg, I hope I can cover the hardware costs, Software
development is just going to cost me my time, or more Royalties to the
developer.
<snip>
Well since a 10$ reg is out of the picture for production because of
production/profit/other reasons is there a simple "shareware" design that
could be used? Is it as simple as using a few diodes and wireing/enclosing
them safely on each battery as some have mentioned?
It would almost be a teaser to get people to get a BMS. Maybe seeing how
much the MK1 like reg could do to help their EV would get a few more people
to step up and get the MK3 super reg.
Lee Hart writes:
> So, I was simply speculating on just how inexpensively a BMS could be
> made. It seems to me that one could get 90% of the benefit for about 10%
> of the cost. All it has to do is a) limit maximum battery voltage, and
> b) tell the charger to turn itself down or off when the first battery
> hits its limiting voltage.
I would love to have a simple BMS such as the above or even simpler. I would
go for one that just limited the maximum battery voltage. Nothing but just
stop my 8 volt battery from going above say 10 volts or something I could
change by trimming a pot, flipping a switch or buying new diodes. I could
add a switch to turn each one off to equalize if need be so each BMS module
is an island upon itself.
Turning down the charger is nice but then you have to have a charger that
will communicate with your BMS, or if you just shut if off you need to have
all the BMS modules able to communicate that. This might mean the BMS needed
to handle more current and you would waste electricity if you were far out
of balance but having twice the diodes or heatsink per module would seem
cheaper/easier to install.
If there was a simple design that was only a few dollars in parts to do this
I would build the piece in proper enclosures and install it right now.
Mark Hastings
'83 S-10 EV Blazer
www.geocities.com/evblazer
That is the EXACT concept behind the Rudman Regulator MK1., Then feature
creap got me into the Mk2, and needing data for adjusting the charge
profile is now getting me into the MK3 digital regulator.
OF the thoussands of Regulators that I have made, I am not sure I made a
profit... Doing a $10 Reg is out of the picture, there is not enough
demand, or market. At $30 there is slim hope at $40, it looks good. at
$50, and a digi Reg, I hope I can cover the hardware costs, Software
development is just going to cost me my time, or more Royalties to the
developer.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
Mark Hastings
'83 S-10 EV Blazer
www.geocities.com/evblazer
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Another thing people often do not consider is the value of their time.
How many times over the life of your vehicle would you like to check
individual battery voltages under load, or prior to recharging? How long
would it take you to remove all the covers, go around the pack with a
meter, replace the covers, and hope you don't short anything in the
process, each time (even then you're not testing under load)?
Also, the marginal cost of increased range is hard to estimate, but it's
there. If you can increase your range 10% by utilizing equalization,
what is that worth to you? How much would it cost to increase range that
amount by some other method (regen, radical weight redux, assuming your
driving technique is already appropriate)?
Many Evs are works in progress, where temporary instrumentation (like
temperatures) is desirable to assess performance. Once the design
reliably does what you want, it can be removed, but until that time
having it in place detects problems a lot sooner. For batteries and
their connections, which change over time, advance warnings (low
voltage, high temp) are very likely to save down time, and/or allow you
to plan repairs and expenses at your convenience.
I guess I'm advocating for the ability to display individual battery
voltages (though not necessarily effortless continuous real-time
display) as a basic feature of any BMS.
- GT
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 3:28 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Money philosophy (was Re: BMS cost)
>
>
> I keep forgetting that my money philosophy probably little
> different than for most. I don't make things more expensive
> than they have to be, but designing for myself don't put
> money on top of priority list or set fixed budget.
>
> I define what do I want (reasonably) with *all* desirable features,
> and *then* look if I can afford it, just like the most people.
> The difference I think comes later: if I cannot afford it, I don't
> start throwing features out until it's affordable; while it still
> may get me from A to B, it's no longer something I wanted in a first
> place, so why bother?. I look for alternatives to accomplish
> the same thing.
>
> I know that many define fixed budget first before even knowing
> exactly what for in particular, and *then* try different
> things if they fit in this budget. And, once it fits, very
> last thing is
> decision if this is something they really may like or
> wouldn't mind. Makes little sense to me, but this is just me.
>
> Victor
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Lonnie Borntreger wrote:
>
> Here is the cool part. ...
> Then you wouldn't be driving "the same car for whole life".
> You could have a truck, minivan, car, or whatever you're in the mood for
> on any given day.
>
> Lonnie
And pay insurance for as many cars as many body shells you
have, because they are legally different cars. Not so cool.
Victor
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Hi Bob,
First off...this is meant just for you, please do npt shar eit with the EVDL.
Bob Rice wrote:
>
> At the risk of being over simplistic, howbout a pressure treated 4by 4
> dug into the ground enough to be sturdy, the cables run up to it under
> ground, a wooden " Shelter" like a bird feeder to keep the rain off the
> plugs? I'm using a tree, already in place, for this service. Hidden in my
> little box shelter is a , of COURSE, 120 volt plug, and a 50 amp range plug..The
> whole
> outfit is wired with #6 underground cable to a 60 ampbreaker, in the garage....
Gawd, I loved this! Common sense...geesh, what a noval idea!
> Botton line. Why dous it have to be so complicated to feel EV's All most
> of us need is that ubquitous outside outlet that is in place most
> EVerywhere. Coke machine at the gas station, concvenience store and the
> like. Sometimes outside lighting poles have outlets! Sniff around! On the
> Wals at Wal Mart, even.With their bottom line, didn't feel guilty about
> letting them charge me outside as well as inside.
I loved all this, too!!! You are a great asset to the otherwaise lamo EVDL these days.
Out of pure coincidance, the folowing was a private email interaction between my friend
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Joe Smalley wrote:
> In my tests, the starting battery loses 3% capacity per cycle but starts
> out with 12% more capacity.
That would be for the same weight of lead, I presume?
> The fourth cycle is the tradeoff point. After that, the deep cycle
> battery has more capacity although the impedance of the cranking battery
> is still better for a while. I would have to look back on the report to
> see how long it took to degrade to the deep cycle impedance value.
Hmm, capacity or impedance... distance or speed... and I don't know
which is more important in this context. It would depend on how strong
the time penalty is for not finishing a stage, I'll have to find that out.
--
Lesley Walker, Wellington, New Zealand
LRW at clear.net.nz
(or [EMAIL PROTECTED] until 17 March 03)
"Do you like cat?"
"Yes, I quite like cats."
"Leg or breast?"
Neverwhere, by Neil Gaiman
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This is a bit OT, so I'll keep it short...
I've seen a big increase in spam recently,
loads to with "COPY ANY DVD.... blah blah"
and "IBM Thinkpad sale .... blah blah"
Has the EVDL been harvested? I've noticed a
few posts recently where everyone on the list
was CC'd directly by some people's messed up
email software, thereby giving every subscriber's
email address out....
Ok, that's my OT rant for today...
Richard Bebbington
Electric Mini pickup
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Bob Rice wrote:
>
> Hi EVerybody, Chinese Friends, Too!
> I would say it's a sincere offer of flattery, that they would show
> interest! More than on our shores. BTW is the magazine in Chinese? Yeah?
Yes, in Chinese.
> Silly question, but doesn't hurt to ask.Along the same vein, used to
> subscribe to " Japanese Railway Engineering" which, lucky for me WAS in
> english. Lottsa great techy articles on building the Bullet Train.
>
> Canya subscribe?
Have no idea, you probably can. I got few issues as a promotion
along with flyers and specs. I don't subscribe.
Regarding the fact they don't have their own pictures, not the case.
The state of EV activity according to the magazine is no less than
in the US. Bunch of pictures of EVs, t-zero at all angles including
under hood; foreign and domestic EVs and all that. It would be no need
to snag the photo. I guess attraction was large well visible letters
bragging that this is electric.
Victor
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Of course it's been harvested. Happens pretty regularly ever since they
put the archive up on Yahoo.
On Wed, 2003-02-26 at 13:41, Richard Bebbington wrote:
> This is a bit OT, so I'll keep it short...
>
> I've seen a big increase in spam recently,
> loads to with "COPY ANY DVD.... blah blah"
> and "IBM Thinkpad sale .... blah blah"
>
> Has the EVDL been harvested? I've noticed a
> few posts recently where everyone on the list
> was CC'd directly by some people's messed up
> email software, thereby giving every subscriber's
> email address out....
>
> Ok, that's my OT rant for today...
>
> Richard Bebbington
> Electric Mini pickup
>
--
EVDL
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