EV Digest 2634
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Battery Shipping
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Standard Public Charging Station
by "Mike Pengelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) (US) EV bumper sticker proposal
by "Grannes, Dean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Portable GFCI protection?
by "Cliff Rassweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Electromagnetic Drive?
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Optimas at Auto Zone
by "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: free piston engines
by Andrew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Air car
by John Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Power loss in series Hybrid setup
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: LiIons order time
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Battery Shipping
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Air car
by "Kevin Coughlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Luntz memo exposes Bush's new green strategy
by murdoch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Found an EV to buy! Hold me back, somebody...
by Lesley Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Found an EV to buy! Hold me back, somebody...
by Lesley Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: LiIons order time
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Luntz memo exposes Bush's new green strategy
by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Battery Shipping
by Gordon Niessen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: (US) EV bumper sticker proposal
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Battery Shipping
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
21) Re: Electromagnetic Drive?
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Electromagnetic Drive?
by "Walker, Lesley R" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Electromagnetic Drive?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) WE'RE NOT GONNA ROCK DOWN TO ELECTRIC AVENUE
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On 5 Mar 2003 at 10:46, Gordon Niessen wrote:
> Anyone had any experience shipping Sealed Lead-acid Batteries?
I've had them shipped via UPS. If they're clearly marked "sealed" and
"spill-proof," there should be no problem. Your "box-it" operation is
probably just ignorant of the regulations, and thus afraid of them. Try
taking them directly to a UPS terminal.
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bruce and Kevin,
The outlet box I'm using at work is probably similar to the unit Joe is
using. These are called temporary service or RV boxes. The one I am using
is a Siemens but all of the makers of electrical boxes make them. Mine has
a 14-50 and a duplex 5-20 with breakers just above the outlets. The unit
comes complete with the outlets and breakers, but the 50 amp breaker is not
GFCI. I replaced the standard 50 amp breaker with a GFCI breaker so all of
the outlet would be protected. The box cost about $125 I think and the 50
GFCI breaker was another $75. I bought mine a one of the big home supply
stores.
Below is a link to Siemens' catalog on these units. The one I have is just
the small unit designed to mount to a wall.
http://www.sea.siemens.com/resident/docs/RPSA-S0002-0102.pdf
That 50 amp outlet sure comes in handy with the new PFC50.
Mike Pengelly
Phoenix, AZ
'90 Mustang EV
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Coughlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 9:11 AM
Subject: Re: Standard Public Charging Station
> I'll second the request (for a better look at/inside the box). I need a
> welding outlet at the end of my driveway - really and truly - and might as
> well also ensure it will be useful once I get my next EV project going (or
> if somebody going through Snohomish needs some juice).
>
> Kevin - Snohomish, WA
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bruce EVangel Parmenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 6:49 AM
> Subject: Re: Standard Public Charging Station
>
>
> > Joe,
> >
> > Please let the List know what the total cost of the
> > box you built and how hard it was to put together.
> >
> > If you can get a picture of the box inside and out
> > I would like to add it to my evcharging page.
> >
> > Some people would be timid about
> > -finding a box
> > -installing and
> > -wiring the two outlets and breakers.
> >
> > For those that have done it, they find it is
> > no sweat. But if we document where you found it,
> > how it went together, and how it looks, the
> > timid would be empowered to be more bold.
> >
> >
> >
> > =====
> > ' ____
> > ~/__|o\__
> > '@----- @'---(=
> > . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> > . EV List Editor & RE newswires
> > . (originator of the above ASCII art)
> > =====
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
> > http://taxes.yahoo.com/
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Folks,
With all the discussion about Middle East oil, from the much-publicized
anti-SUV ads, to the factually flawed email circulating suggesting that
buying gas from certain companies will reduce our Middle East oil
dependence, to the peace activists' slogan "no blood for oil", there is
much awareness right now in the US about where our transportation energy
is coming from.
I propose to make up a bumper sticker with the message "Powered by 100%
American Electrons". I came up with an initial design last night. It
can be viewed at:
http://www.geocities.com/ironstephanie/americanelectrons.gif
I am by no means a graphic designer. I don't even know whether I got
the aspect ratio right (it's 3"x8"). If someone wants to propose a
better message or a better design, I'd be happy to use it.
I would like to get a bunch of bumper stickers made up and sell them
essentially at cost to whoever wants one. I'll cross-post to the other
EV lists eventually, but thought I'd start here at the EVDL.
If anyone has done this before or knows of places that makes bumper
stickers, that info would be appreciated (contact me off-list). If
someone wants to help (or wants to spearhead the effort), also contact
me off-list.
I think the time is right for this message to get out. Imagine showing
up at the CARB meeting in a few weeks with these bumper stickers on all
the EVs. Or attending a peace rally. Or just driving down a highway
full of SUVs. It should make people think twice before dismissing pure
electrics.
Ideally, these would be designed and produced within about two weeks. I
don't know whether that's feasible, but I'd like to get the design
locked in by the end of the week. Alternate designs can be emailed to
me directly, or posted somewhere on the Internet with a link sent either
to me or to the EVDL. I will try to post any designs that get sent to
me directly up on the Internet and send out a link. Ideally, we would
then vote on the best design, but there might not be time for that. No
guarantees there.
The goal will be to get them into people's mailboxes in time for the
CARB meeting 3/27. Therefore, any alternate designs must be received by
11:59pm (PST) Sunday, March 9 (the sooner, the better). Early next week
I hope to send off the design to be printed. I don't know how much each
will cost, but imagine it will be a few dollars. Any requests or
"intents-to-order" are appreciated, but please make sure it is off-list.
Any help in this effort would be appreciated.
Note to our friends in Canada, Australia, UK, NZ, and elsewhere: If you
like the idea, perhaps you could design your own based on the same
concept but with appropriate country colors and name.
Dean Grannes
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I'm looking for a portable GFCI protection for a PFC50 charger. Does anyone
know of a place to buy an extension cable with a 220 volt 50 amp GFCI
protection built in?
Would I need a different GFCI for a 220 volt 20 amp rated circuit?
I have seen lots of nice cables with GFCI built in for 115volt 15 amp and 20
amp circuits. Can I use a 20 amp (115 volt) one on a 15 amp (115 volt)
circuit and still be safe?
Thanks
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Thanx for your comments, some of them are very valuable because I didn't
> have anything to compare my results to before.
>
> "Huh? Oh I see, calibrated guesstimation. You didn't actually measure
> the power then heh?"
>
> I like this sort of comment, it shows just how much people take in when they
> read. im not here to promote free energy or over unity, im here cause its
> time for me to step up from my toys to a full sized EV.
> What you seem to have missed here is that I stated the facts, in that, the
> running parameters of the motor were, 12 watts unloaded and 25 watts fully
> loaded, and then went on to point out that at 25 watt draw the transistor
> got hot, so I divided the load, so that the 2 transistors only got warm at
> 25 watts under load.
First of all I applaud your work, keep it up.
That said I think you will make better progress if you put some effort
into learning some of the basic theory behind electronics.
Using two transistors is a good idea.
However the heat generated does not necessarily correlate directly (1:1)
with the power through the device. It depends on the device.
Some basic theory here. Ohms law states that Voltage equals Current
times resistance.
Further power equals voltage times current.
By convention voltage is represented by the letter E, current by the
letter I, resistance by the letter R, and power by the letter P.
So:
E = I * R
P = I * E
through substitution we see that:
P = I * (I * R)
Or Power equals Current squared times Resistance.
So if the device has a fixed voltage drop then the heat generated DOES
have a direct one-to-one relationship to the power. However if you use
a device where the resistance is fairly constant (like a MOSFET) then
the heat generated goes up as the square of the current. 1/2 the
current equals 1/4 of the heat.
The there is ambient air temperature, convection (movement of the air),
surface area, humidity, etc. All of these can affect the temperature of
the device, did you take these into account? Did you measure them? Did
you measure the actual temperature?
Do you see my point?
>
> Now I know this is just a guestamate but I also know that you can ask any 5
> year old the difference between hot, cold and warm and they will be able to
> differentiate between them, so when it was cold it was a pretty good sign
> that the motor was not drawing 25 watts which caused heat.
Really? At which point does something switch from being cold to warm?
>From warm to hot? Specifically which temperature?
This is the whole reason the over unity crowd is not taken seriously by
the scientific community. You MUST take accurate measurements using
accurate measuring equipment. The measurements need to be repeatable
and concrete.
Warm is not a measurement. It's not accurate. It doesn't have the same
meaning to me as it does to you.
People who live in California think it's cold when the temperature drops
below 60 F, people in Washington think it's warm when the temperature
climbs above 50 F
>
> Yes I may be off on my statement that you cant move 130 kgs at 4 kph for 12
> watts, but then if it didn't get warm it wasn't loaded so the speed could
> have been increased until a load was applied to the motor.
>
> By the way I got into this thread because the very meters I was using to
> make my measurements were in question in it and I was just trying to show
> that even those of us without expensive equipment can make measurements that
> are not off the mark due to the cheap meters.
>
Well if that's you point, you haven't proved it yet.
> "Good for you, let's get that bike up to a respectable speed shall we?"
>
> Nope I was thinking more along the lines of big enough to run my van :)
>
Ok that works too. It's more economical to start small, but that's an
economic decision not scientific one.
Either way the simple way to prove your device is whether or not it will
propel the same vehicle (same weight, size, shape, etc) at the same
speed for a longer distance using the same batteries taken down to the
same level of discharge.
Ideally you would build the van with a convention motor and test it then
use your motor and test it. However, most folks will accept as proof if
you motor moves the van SUBSTANTIALLY further than a similarly equiped
van using a conventional motor.
For example 20 ea 6V golf cart batteries weigh approx 1200-1300 lbs
(~560 kgs) and can propel a minivan approx 40-50 miles per charge at
highway speeds.
If your van using a similar weight in lead-acid batteries can go say 200
miles per charge at highway speeds, then I personally will accept that
as conclusive proof.
If it only goes 55 miles then that is kind of meaningless since numerous
other factors can be having an effect.
> "State-of-the-art motors/controllers just don't have much room left for
> improvement. They are only a few percent away from perfect."
>
> Hmm, did I mention it didn't get hot somewhere, isn't heat waste ?
> Do you have a state of the art controller or motor that doesn't heat up when
> it is driving a vehicle, even at 4 kph ?
>
Absolutely. Tons of them. Solar racing motor/controller combinations
are typically 96%+ efficient (combined efficiency). Many of these
vehicles only need ~250 watts to go 20 mph (32kph). 4% of this is about
10 watts spread out over the entire motor and controller heat sink.
Simple air convection is more than adequate to disperse this small
amount of heat. In fact most of these motors are so efficient that they
don't have internal fans for cooling.
My truck requires approx 15,000 watts to move at 55 mph ( 90kph), after
an 8 mile drive the motor is slightly warm and the controller 'feels'
the same as it did at the start of the trip. My motor is approx 85-90%
efficient and the controller is 95%. It's an old IGBT controller,
modern MOSFET controllers are much better, perhaps 98%.
> This motor has had 6 months of development go into it since June last year
> it currently draws less and runs 800 rpm faster than it did during the
> documented test on the bike which means I could probably attain the 4 kph
> with only a couple of watts, if placed back on the bike in its current
> setup, but that's another story.
>
Guesses prove nothing, measure it.
P.S. Judging the motors efficiency by measuring the heat in the
controller is practically useless. Yes you can tell that the motor is
better now then it was then if the exact same controller generates less
heat under the exact same conditions, but what exactly IS the motors
efficiency? Did it go from 20% efficient to 30%? Well that's an
improvement but you certainly won't shock the scientific community.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Be aware that there are two different blue tops. There's a deep-cycle
version
like the yellow top and a starting version like the red top. I think the
deep-
cycle version has a light gray case like the yellow top, but I'm not
certain.
Tom Shay
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 7:22 AM
Subject: Optimas at Auto Zone
> I went to my local Auto Zone to pick up some mechanics gloves and saw
> Optima YTs and RTs on the shelf. Just out of curiosity I asked how
> much. $159 for YTs, $120 for RTs, not great prices. Then he said $109
> for Blue Tops. He gave me these prices off the top of his head, so I
> had him check - yep, $109 for BTs. They don't stock them, but they'll
> order them.
>
> I thought the only difference between a YT and BT was the color and some
> added low-current terminals on the BT. If true, $109 sounds pretty
> cheap for a non-blem Optima. I didn't ask if there was any further
> discount for a quantity buy.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 14:58:05 -0800
>
One strange concept that I think deserved more work was the free piston
generator. It is basically an ICE whose piston has no crank or other
physical connection to anything. The piston bounces back and forth
between two cylinder heads. Power is taken out of it magnetically, to
generate electricity.
I've always thought a free piston engine would be a natural for a hybrid.
You could have several on board and start up as many as you needed.
Should be lighter and more efficient than a separate engine/generator
since you don't have a crankshaft or transmission.
Maybe someday I'll build one.....
--
Andrew King
Ann Arbor Michigan
technology is the answer, what was the question?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've done a quick analysis of the air car that's been in the news
lately. The car is powered by 75 gallons of air compressed to 4500 psi.
According to my calculations, the theoretical energy stored in the air
tanks is 11 Khr, assuming the best possible isothermal (constant temp)
compression and expansion process. The efficiency of the air motor is
certain to be low, less than 50%. Assuming 4 miles per Kwhr and this
efficiency, the car will go 22 miles. Since the expansion process of the
air motor is likely to be in part isentropic, the efficiency of the air
motor may be less than 0.5...more likely about 0.25. Thus the range of
the car may be only a little better than 10 miles. The cycle efficiency
of the air charge /discharge process will be even worse, I would
estimate it as low as 10%.
I conclude that an electric car powered by ordinary old lead acid
batteries will have more range and far greater efficiency than the air
car.
Jay
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> A very basic question from a newbie here ...
>
> Is there any rule of thumb way to estimate the power/torque loss between the
> flywheel of the IC petrol or diesel engine and the power/torque at the driven wheels
> in a series hybrid configuration ?
>
> For example if I have an IC engine producing 200bhp and I use it to generate
> electricity which drives an electric motor to (for arguments sake) a single wheel,
> what will be the power at that wheel (or at the outpuit of the electric motor)?
>
> Or is this too simplistic a scenario for some reason ?
Sure just multiply all the efficiencies of everything between the two.
For example is the generator directly coupled to the engine? If so then
there are no transmission losses between them. If you use a belt drive
then you need to find out the efficiency of the belt drive.
Are you storing the energy before it goes to the drive motor or are you
running the drive motor while the engine is generating?
If you are running the drive motor at the same time as the generator and
using exactly as much power as the generator is generating (highly
unlikely) then you don't have to consider storage losses. However if
any power is going into or out of the batteries then you have to
consider storage losses and that portion of the power.
Assuming for the moment that we don't have any storage batteries (just
to keep things simple) Also for just an estimation you can probably
ignore wiring losses since they tend to be so small in relation to the
other losses.
Now is the generator generating exactly the kind of power that the motor
controller can run on? Or is the generator generating AC that needs to
be converted to DC for the motor controller?
Assuming a directly couple DC generator and a high efficiency
transmission between the drive motor and the wheel.
You need to consider the efficiency of the generator, motor controller,
motor, and drive train between the motor and wheel.
At the upper end of the efficiency spectrum the generator might be 92%
efficient, the motor controller 98%, the motor 92%, the drive train
maybe 95%.
.92 * .98 * .92 * .95 = ~79%
Anyway that means that ~158 hp makes it to the drive wheel using these
numbers. Your case will naturally be different and most likely lower in
reality.
FWIW for just driving down the highway a series hybrid will loose to a
standard ICE vehicle every time., assuming they both use identical ICEs.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> What about the 48V cells? Are these as reliable? It would really cut down
> on the BMS complexity if you didn't have to manage some ~45 cells for a
> 160V system.
There is no such thing. They do have 48V batteries, but these are 10
cells in series, which means you still have to worry about managing 10
cells.
>
>
> At 03:21 AM 3/5/2003, you wrote:
> >Hi Steve (and list),
> >
> >The average voltage per cell is 3.6V
> >100 Ah cells weigh 3.0 kg (6.6 lbs)
> >
> >see http://www.thunder-sky.com/Cpjs_next(En).htm for more details.
> >
> >Mark
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: 1sclunn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Sent: Wednesday, 5 March 2003 8:42 PM
> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Subject: Re: LiIons order time
> >
> >
> >what was the voltage on a sell and the lbs.
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 1:52 PM
> >Subject: Re: LiIons order time
> >
> >
> > > Gordon Niessen wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Sorry, but my memory fails me on the details of this offer.
> > >
> > > Depending on how many participate (so far 4 or 5), we're looking at
> > > [constantly changing] figures:
> > >
> > > about $130/100Ah cell
> > > about $115/90Ah cell
> > > about $65/50Ah cell
> > >
> > > These are my best guesses, not locked until I get firm quote.
> > > And I can't get a quote until all of you respond. This Friday
> > > is cut off date to respond. Payment will be needed a week later.
> > >
> > > Shipping will be few hundred, split among participants proportionally
> > > to their share of weight, customs duty = 3.5%.
> > >
> > > This is all I have for now.
> > >
> > > Victor
> > >
> > >
>
--
EVDL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What type of battery?
Many AGM type batteries are certified as being "Air Shippable" or
something similar.
Check with the manufacturer.
On Wed, 2003-03-05 at 09:46, Gordon Niessen wrote:
> Anyone had any experience shipping Sealed Lead-acid Batteries? Looking to
> get 20 batteries, 12 pounds each, from Phoenix to Houston. Local box-it
> place doesn't want to touch it because of the hazardous material
> issues. And Yellow Freight is a bit expensive and requires crating. And I
> am in Houston, so I have no way to help with handling to keep costs down.
>
--
EVDL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The one issue you might have missed is the weight of the storage medium. In
a car with lead/acids, you have lead. In an "air car" you are using
something like carbon fiber wrapped aluminum... the same stuff we
firefighters use to carry our air on our backs - normally at 2215 psi, and
"high pressure" bottles at 4500.
So - if the weight is less, it might be a bit more efficient since it moves
less weight.
Now - can we pump air as fast as we pump gas? It would certainly retain the
economic structure of having "filling stations" on every corner - but
something would have to be done to avoid the heat build up of a fast
fill......
KC
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV discussion list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 10:22 AM
Subject: Air car
> I've done a quick analysis of the air car that's been in the news
> lately. The car is powered by 75 gallons of air compressed to 4500 psi.
> According to my calculations, the theoretical energy stored in the air
> tanks is 11 Khr, assuming the best possible isothermal (constant temp)
> compression and expansion process. The efficiency of the air motor is
> certain to be low, less than 50%. Assuming 4 miles per Kwhr and this
> efficiency, the car will go 22 miles. Since the expansion process of the
> air motor is likely to be in part isentropic, the efficiency of the air
> motor may be less than 0.5...more likely about 0.25. Thus the range of
> the car may be only a little better than 10 miles. The cycle efficiency
> of the air charge /discharge process will be even worse, I would
> estimate it as low as 10%.
>
> I conclude that an electric car powered by ordinary old lead acid
> batteries will have more range and far greater efficiency than the air
> car.
>
> Jay
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>be able to survive transport with very low loss. I don't see
>hydrogen as something that can be efficiently delivered, unless
>something like carbon nanotubes actually works out. If it is
>produced at our homes for our cars, that is not an "economy".
>
>Mike LaBonte
I think it can be efficiently delivered, but not as Hydrogen. I think, for
example, that ethanol (CH2CH3OH) or Methanol (CH3OH) (or something along
those lines) can be viewed as a transporter of hydrogen to a fuel cell.
These substances are liquid under generally-found conditions and can be
handled, within reason (yes, I know methanol is "nasty" and toxic in some
ways, but compared to some other things, it can be used, and it's just an
example). Another prime fuel for fuel cells will be Methane (CH4) aka
"Natural Gas" (basically).
Some of these substances can be used in fuel cells, with reforming
generally. I think in some cases, it is not *that* hard, though more
effort is necessary. The best evworld.com article I read on a fuel cell
vehicle was a Mercedes Benz Methanol-powered one. I think it's a
misconception that we "must" shoot for a pure Hydrogen economy in order to
enjoy the benefits of fuel cells, and frankly this may be a case where
President Bush's oft-discussed lack of super-intelligence may actually have
come into play.
Usually I dismiss those comments (he's consistently under-estimated by
many) but in this case, I don't think he's intelligent enough to understand
not only energy policy technical issues, but to some extent even the fact
that his advisers are misinforming him and misforming National Energy
Policy. However, I don't want to credit him with that much good intention.
Even if he detected misinformation I'm not sure he'd act to correct it. As
I said, I do credit him with some intelligence, and I don't think he's
completely unaware that his Energy Policies are botched at best and
completely ill-intended at worst.
A year or two ago he did go on record in commenting on alternative energies
that he thought they were "good ideas" (or something to that effect) but
that he "wasn't sure" (or something to that effect) that they were ready...
as though he's given it much thought then or since!
Also, it probably should be repeated that a major act of derision during
the Presidential campaign was done in calling attention to Candidate Gore's
call for some sort of ending of the Internal Combustion Engine.
What exactly has President Bush now done?
Another derision was by Candidate Cheney against owners of Solar Panels and
EVs.... that they should probably vote for the other guy. He did visit a
fuel cell manufacturer and praise it.... his exactly language was to
mention that it used Hydrocarbons (Natural Gas CH4 I believe)... this
seemed to be a criteria of his for granting praise. So, apparently, he is
less supportive of a technology unless it makes use of Hydrocarbons.
As for calls for a Hydrogen Economy, since most Hydrogen now is presently
derived from Natural Gas and will continue to be partly derived from
Hydrocarbons, it's not hard to see why it doesn't much bother the existing
Hydrocarbon folks. I like fuel cells very much, despite all this, and
eventually the source of their various fuels can be changed to a renewable
source, I believe, with some effort.
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Where is it located ?
Auckland, New Zealand. I'm in Wellington, which is either a one-hour
flight or a 6-8 hour drive away.
--
Lesley Walker, Wellington, New Zealand
LRW at clear.net.nz
"Do you like cat?"
"Yes, I quite like cats."
"Leg or breast?"
Neverwhere, by Neil Gaiman
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Lee Hart wrote:
> Lesley Walker wrote:
> > I found this on TradeMe, the NZ equivalent of E-Bay.
> > http://tinyurl.com/6vr4
>
> Looks like a good deal, if only for the parts!
That's what I thought.
> Check to see if it needs batteries. 90% of the time that's why the
> person is selling.
Hmm. It depends on how you define "need". He runs it on second-hand
batteries purchased from golf clubs, and every time a few of them start
to lose capacity he replaces those ones and sells them, to people who
want them for home power systems. He claims to actually make a small
profit by doing this! The reason it works is because the golf club tends
to throw out a cart's whole pack rather than just the sick batteries.
The reason he's selling it, he says, is that he has too many cars. He
also has an electric Fiat (small one) which he sent me a photo of so I'm
inclined to believe him. Sounds like he's been involved in a number of
conversions but says he isn't going to do any more because of the
hassle (of getting them registered, I think).
> See what else needs to be fixed. It may have negligible instrumentation,
> or exposed wiring, or the battery boxes may be suffering from corrosion
> problems.
>
> The Curtis 1221C is a bit small for a 9" motor, but you might get away
> with it in a light car.
Thanks, that's the kind of advice I'm looking for.
--
Lesley Walker, Wellington, New Zealand
LRW at clear.net.nz
"Do you like cat?"
"Yes, I quite like cats."
"Leg or breast?"
Neverwhere, by Neil Gaiman
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If you're asking me, I know as much about 36V/42V batteries as you.
Well, may be a bit more: these batteries consist of the same
cells they sell separately, and $195 BMS made by other Chinese
manufacturer (and I was unable to get ANY info about it, I tried
hard) is bolted to it. How well it works? No idea.
If you want to risk and try and have cash ready, join the
group now. I can't decide for you guys, I'm on the same boat
risking my investment as well, I just decided I want to do it and
risk is fine with me. Please don't ask *me* if *you* should do it.
Just let me know by Friday if you want to participate AND have cash.
Victor
Gordon Niessen wrote:
>
> What about the 48V cells? Are these as reliable? It would really cut down
> on the BMS complexity if you didn't have to manage some ~45 cells for a
> 160V system.
>
> At 03:21 AM 3/5/2003, you wrote:
> >Hi Steve (and list),
> >
> >The average voltage per cell is 3.6V
> >100 Ah cells weigh 3.0 kg (6.6 lbs)
> >
> >see http://www.thunder-sky.com/Cpjs_next(En).htm for more details.
> >
> >Mark
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: 1sclunn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Sent: Wednesday, 5 March 2003 8:42 PM
> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Subject: Re: LiIons order time
> >
> >
> >what was the voltage on a sell and the lbs.
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 1:52 PM
> >Subject: Re: LiIons order time
> >
> >
> > > Gordon Niessen wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Sorry, but my memory fails me on the details of this offer.
> > >
> > > Depending on how many participate (so far 4 or 5), we're looking at
> > > [constantly changing] figures:
> > >
> > > about $130/100Ah cell
> > > about $115/90Ah cell
> > > about $65/50Ah cell
> > >
> > > These are my best guesses, not locked until I get firm quote.
> > > And I can't get a quote until all of you respond. This Friday
> > > is cut off date to respond. Payment will be needed a week later.
> > >
> > > Shipping will be few hundred, split among participants proportionally
> > > to their share of weight, customs duty = 3.5%.
> > >
> > > This is all I have for now.
> > >
> > > Victor
> > >
> > >
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One thing to remember is that as soon as you add a reformer and other fuel,
you no longer have a Zero Emission Vehicle. Maybe it will be less polluting
than an ICE, maybe not. Maybe it will use renewable energy (ethanol and
methanol can be produced from biomass), maybe it won't.
My opinion - it's much less expensive to use electricity to charge batteries
than to produce hydrogen to be used to produce electricity, and, at least to
date, hydrogen fuel cell vehicles (the only true fuel cell ZEV) have range
equal to or less than a modern battery electric vehicle.
Dave Davidson
From: murdoch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED],
[EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED],
[EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Luntz memo exposes Bush's new green strategy
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 12:27:10 -0800
>be able to survive transport with very low loss. I don't see
>hydrogen as something that can be efficiently delivered, unless
>something like carbon nanotubes actually works out. If it is
>produced at our homes for our cars, that is not an "economy".
>
>Mike LaBonte
I think it can be efficiently delivered, but not as Hydrogen. I think, for
example, that ethanol (CH2CH3OH) or Methanol (CH3OH) (or something along
those lines) can be viewed as a transporter of hydrogen to a fuel cell.
These substances are liquid under generally-found conditions and can be
handled, within reason (yes, I know methanol is "nasty" and toxic in some
ways, but compared to some other things, it can be used, and it's just an
example). Another prime fuel for fuel cells will be Methane (CH4) aka
"Natural Gas" (basically).
Some of these substances can be used in fuel cells, with reforming
generally. I think in some cases, it is not *that* hard, though more
effort is necessary. The best evworld.com article I read on a fuel cell
vehicle was a Mercedes Benz Methanol-powered one. I think it's a
misconception that we "must" shoot for a pure Hydrogen economy in order to
enjoy the benefits of fuel cells, and frankly this may be a case where
President Bush's oft-discussed lack of super-intelligence may actually have
come into play.
Usually I dismiss those comments (he's consistently under-estimated by
many) but in this case, I don't think he's intelligent enough to understand
not only energy policy technical issues, but to some extent even the fact
that his advisers are misinforming him and misforming National Energy
Policy. However, I don't want to credit him with that much good intention.
Even if he detected misinformation I'm not sure he'd act to correct it. As
I said, I do credit him with some intelligence, and I don't think he's
completely unaware that his Energy Policies are botched at best and
completely ill-intended at worst.
A year or two ago he did go on record in commenting on alternative energies
that he thought they were "good ideas" (or something to that effect) but
that he "wasn't sure" (or something to that effect) that they were ready...
as though he's given it much thought then or since!
Also, it probably should be repeated that a major act of derision during
the Presidential campaign was done in calling attention to Candidate Gore's
call for some sort of ending of the Internal Combustion Engine.
What exactly has President Bush now done?
Another derision was by Candidate Cheney against owners of Solar Panels and
EVs.... that they should probably vote for the other guy. He did visit a
fuel cell manufacturer and praise it.... his exactly language was to
mention that it used Hydrocarbons (Natural Gas CH4 I believe)... this
seemed to be a criteria of his for granting praise. So, apparently, he is
less supportive of a technology unless it makes use of Hydrocarbons.
As for calls for a Hydrogen Economy, since most Hydrogen now is presently
derived from Natural Gas and will continue to be partly derived from
Hydrocarbons, it's not hard to see why it doesn't much bother the existing
Hydrocarbon folks. I like fuel cells very much, despite all this, and
eventually the source of their various fuels can be changed to a renewable
source, I believe, with some effort.
_________________________________________________________________
Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
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SVR-14's - They are AGM's, but I would probably need to prove it to the
shipping company. The MSDS does not mention anything about Air Shippable,
and handling only mentions not to allow sulfuric acid to contact anything
in the even the case breaks or contact to be made to both contacts. Not a
lot of help in appeasing shippers.
At 02:16 PM 3/5/2003, you wrote:
What type of battery?
Many AGM type batteries are certified as being "Air Shippable" or
something similar.
Check with the manufacturer.
On Wed, 2003-03-05 at 09:46, Gordon Niessen wrote:
> Anyone had any experience shipping Sealed Lead-acid Batteries? Looking to
> get 20 batteries, 12 pounds each, from Phoenix to Houston. Local box-it
> place doesn't want to touch it because of the hazardous material
> issues. And Yellow Freight is a bit expensive and requires
crating. And I
> am in Houston, so I have no way to help with handling to keep costs down.
>
--
EVDL
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Grannes, Dean wrote:
> I propose to make up a bumper sticker with the message "Powered by 100%
> American Electrons". I came up with an initial design last night. It
> can be viewed at:
>
> http://www.geocities.com/ironstephanie/americanelectrons.gif
I love it, Dean. Put me down for a couple!
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
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You might as evparts how they ship theirs.
They do, I have some.
Robert Salem
81 vw pickup 240volts, kostov
Columbus OH
> SVR-14's - They are AGM's, but I would probably need to prove it to the
>
> shipping company. The MSDS does not mention anything about Air
> Shippable,
> and handling only mentions not to allow sulfuric acid to contact
> anything
> in the even the case breaks or contact to be made to both contacts. Not
> a
> lot of help in appeasing shippers.
>
> At 02:16 PM 3/5/2003, you wrote:
> >What type of battery?
> >
> >Many AGM type batteries are certified as being "Air Shippable" or
> >something similar.
> >
> >Check with the manufacturer.
> >
> >On Wed, 2003-03-05 at 09:46, Gordon Niessen wrote:
> > > Anyone had any experience shipping Sealed Lead-acid Batteries?
> Looking to
> > > get 20 batteries, 12 pounds each, from Phoenix to Houston. Local
> box-it
> > > place doesn't want to touch it because of the hazardous material
> > > issues. And Yellow Freight is a bit expensive and requires
> > crating. And I
> > > am in Houston, so I have no way to help with handling to keep costs
> down.
> > >
> >--
> >EVDL
>
>
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Hi Lee,
To be honest its only a guess but the cap is causing the voltage to read
higher than it actually is there by giving a false reading on the meter
because the meter is averaging the peaks and the valleys not reading the
constant.
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
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garry wrote:
> I really don't need a wizzy meter for what I do because a lot
> of it just doesn't agree with people.
Well, it depends who you want to convince of what, doesn't it.
If you get to the stage of building a marketable product you
will need to know accurately how much electrical power it uses
and how much physical power it produces.
> Next time I have it together you can come test it :)
I can't do a lot of testing with only one true RMS multimeter,
but I'll certainly be over to have a look sometime. After as I
get past this pesky business of having to turn up to work. :-)
--
Lesley Walker
LRW_at_clear.net.nz
[EMAIL PROTECTED] until 17 March
"[Hybrid electric vehicles] are self-sustaining,
as long as you keep putting gas in the tank."
--- James R. Healey, USA Today
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garry wrote:
> To be honest its only a guess but the cap is causing the voltage to
> read higher than it actually is there by giving a false reading on
> the meter because the meter is averaging the peaks and the valleys
> not reading the constant.
The important thing in this simple example is to know when your meter is
telling the truth, and when it is lying to you.
For your efficiency calculation to be accurate, all 4 measurements must
be accurate; VoltsIn, AmpsIn, VoltsOut, and AmpsOut.
So, Garry: Which ones will your meter read correctly, and which ones
will be wrong? You have a guess; that VoltsOut is reading higher than it
actually is. Can you find a way to confirm it? Can you find the REAL
efficiency of this circuit?
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
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WE'RE NOT GONNA ROCK DOWN TO ELECTRIC AVENUE
The electric car could soon go the way of the dodo, as California
moves toward eliminating a rule first approved in 1990 to force
automakers to sell a fixed number of electric cars in the state. The
proposed changes to the zero-emissions-vehicle rule would allow car
manufacturers to earn credits for low-emissions hybrid vehicles,
instead of only for electric cars. The changes amount to an
acknowledgement that hybrids are more economical and more appealing
to customers than electric vehicles. When it comes to cars, as
California goes, so goes the nation, so the policy change could sound
the death knell for the electric-car market. Meanwhile, Shell
announced plans to unveil the nation's first hydrogen fuel-pump at a
gas station, in Washington, D.C. The pump will provide fuel for six
experimental General Motors fuel-cell minivans that will be loaned
out for test-driving, especially to denizens of Capitol Hill.
Critics say the cars are a way for automakers to make a good
impression on politicians without making any real changes to U.S.
vehicle production.
straight to the source: San Jose Mercury News, Paul Rogers, 04 Mar 2003
<http://www.gristmagazine.com/forward.pl?forward_id=857>
straight to the source: Washington Post, John Tierney, 05 Mar 2003
<http://www.gristmagazine.com/forward.pl?forward_id=858>
only in Grist: Tough cell -- what can we learn from Bush's
FreedomCAR plan? -- by Amanda Griscom in Powers That Be
<http://www.gristmagazine.com/powers/powers022603.asp?source=daily>
do good: Take action and pledge to buy an eco-friendly car
<http://www.gristmagazine.com/dogood/autos.asp?source=daily#pledge>
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