EV Digest 2633
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Electromagnetic Drive?
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Electromagnetic Drive?
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Electromagnetic Drive?
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Electromagnetic Drive?
by "Walker, Lesley R" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: LiIons order time
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Electromagnetic Drive?
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Electromagnetic Drive?
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Found an EV to buy! Hold me back, somebody...
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Power loss in series Hybrid setup
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) Re: Found an EV to buy! Hold me back, somebody...
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) Re: Power loss in series Hybrid setup
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Rudman Reg Mark I Rev C repair parts.
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Found an EV to buy! Hold me back, somebody...
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Standard Public Charging Station
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: LiIons order time
by Gordon Niessen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Optimas at Auto Zone
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Electromagnetic Drive?
by "Heh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Chico EAA meeting Sat. 3-9-03
by "Chuck Alldrin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Electromagnetic Drive?
by "Paschke, Stephen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: LiIons order time
by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Battery Shipping
by Gordon Niessen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Standard Public Charging Station
by "Kevin Coughlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Found an EV to buy! Hold me back, somebody...
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Electromagnetic Drive?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Electromagnetic Drive?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Battery Shipping
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) OT: Stirling Engines (was: Electromagnetic Drive?)
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Garry
that a motor that size even truns on 1 watt is remarkable. There looks to
me to be a lot of fine work being done there. All that machineaning ect.
I'll bet people won't complane about plugging in the EV's if there EV's are
powering the house. Your not from Florida are you?
Steve Clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: Electromagnetic Drive?
> Hi Lee,
>
> We inventors aren't that silly you know ...well some of us aren't.
>
> I made a pulse motor and measured its draw with cheap ineffective meters
and
> it drew 12 watts, so I loaded it up using my hand on the shaft and its
> maximum draw was 25 watts.
>
> So how far out do you think this is in reality ?
>
> It felt like it had a lot of torque, but I really didn't have anything to
> measure it with, so instead of just saying "it has a lot of torque", I
> decided to apply it to something and see just how much it had.
>
> The something was a push bike, and because the transistor seemed to get
hot
> quick when I had it loaded on the bench and I was expecting to load it on
> the bike, I divided the circuit in half and added a second transistor to
it,
> to divide the load thus reducing the heating, so I didn't blow my
> transistors.
>
> Once placed on the bike it drove my weight and 3 motor bike batteries and
> its own weight at 4 kph.
>
> The best thing was it didn't get hot at all there was not even warming in
> the transistors so this indicated to me that it was drawing the 12 watts
> rather than the 25 watts I had seen on load when testing it.
>
> It really doesn't matter though does it, cause we all know that 25 watts
to
> move 130 odd kgs at 4 kph is just as impossible as 12 watts.
>
> My web site is www.cable.net.nz/ou and the info on this is in the June
> update and the pix are on a link at the bottom of the page called motor3
on
> bike if you want to see for yourself.
>
> This as you can see changes the question, no longer is the question "where
> did the inventor go wrong with his measurements " but more a question of
why
> you and others find it so difficult to believe you have been "lead up the
> garden path" all your lives ?
>
> Prior to joining this list I had thought that the sheer price of building
a
> motor bigger than the one I have made, would make it non viable, but
seeing
> that most of the people here are paying thousands for motors and
controllers
> I intend to make a bigger unit.
>
> I have a little Suzuki Carry van that I intend to convert to electric and
> once this is completed I will build one of my motors to go in it and this
> will give proof that a motor can be built that is so much more efficient
> than you believe possible now that you will have to wonder why someone
> didn't do it before.
>
> Then again maybe you have heard of Ed Gray he had a pretty good motor im
> told :)
>
> No offence meant here, I'm just trying to point out that not all inventors
> have to rely on results based on these silly cheap meters, some of us can
> take our results and put them to work in the real world.
>
> Garry Stanley
>
> Cable.net.nz
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 2003-03-04 at 16:26, garry wrote:
> Hi Lee,
>
> We inventors aren't that silly you know ...well some of us aren't.
>
> I made a pulse motor and measured its draw with cheap ineffective meters and
> it drew 12 watts, so I loaded it up using my hand on the shaft and its
> maximum draw was 25 watts.
>
> So how far out do you think this is in reality ?
About this far (holds hands up)
>
> It felt like it had a lot of torque, but I really didn't have anything to
> measure it with, so instead of just saying "it has a lot of torque", I
> decided to apply it to something and see just how much it had.
Good. "lots of torque" is a pretty useless figure because most people
forget to calibrate their test equipment (hand) before measuring.
>
> The something was a push bike, and because the transistor seemed to get hot
> quick when I had it loaded on the bench and I was expecting to load it on
> the bike, I divided the circuit in half and added a second transistor to it,
> to divide the load thus reducing the heating, so I didn't blow my
> transistors.
>
> Once placed on the bike it drove my weight and 3 motor bike batteries and
> its own weight at 4 kph.
>
Translation: grannies in walkers were passing you by. But, hey it
moved. That's a start.
> The best thing was it didn't get hot at all there was not even warming in
> the transistors so this indicated to me that it was drawing the 12 watts
> rather than the 25 watts I had seen on load when testing it.
>
Huh? Oh I see, calibrated guesstimation. You didn't actually measure
the power then heh?
> It really doesn't matter though does it, cause we all know that 25 watts to
> move 130 odd kgs at 4 kph is just as impossible as 12 watts.
>
Says who? 12 watts sounds just about right to move something that slow,
or were you thinking it should take even less?
The average couch potato can produce 100 watts on a semi continuous
basis. This is enough to propel a bicycle at approx 12 mph (~20 kph).
Given that some of the losses go up in a non linear fashion, it should
take less than 1/5 the power to go 1/5 the speed.
For example aerodynamic losses go up as the square of the speed. Double
the speed and the energy required quadruples.
I put a small DC motor on a bike with a combined weight of over 300lbs
(~140 kg). This small 10 lb (4.5kg) motor propelled me and the bike to
speeds in excess of 28 mph (45 kph) and only used about 460 watts. 30
watts was enough to go 4-5 mph (8 kph)
> My web site is www.cable.net.nz/ou and the info on this is in the June
> update and the pix are on a link at the bottom of the page called motor3 on
> bike if you want to see for yourself.
>
> This as you can see changes the question, no longer is the question "where
> did the inventor go wrong with his measurements " but more a question of why
> you and others find it so difficult to believe you have been "lead up the
> garden path" all your lives ?
>
Absolutely, there is no question about it, you told us where you went
wrong.
I don't follow your "garden path" metaphor though, what are you trying
to say?
> Prior to joining this list I had thought that the sheer price of building a
> motor bigger than the one I have made, would make it non viable, but seeing
> that most of the people here are paying thousands for motors and controllers
> I intend to make a bigger unit.
Good for you, let's get that bike up to a respectable speed shall we?
>
> I have a little Suzuki Carry van that I intend to convert to electric and
> once this is completed I will build one of my motors to go in it and this
> will give proof that a motor can be built that is so much more efficient
> than you believe possible now that you will have to wonder why someone
> didn't do it before.
>
The proof is in the pudding. Build it and show that it can go much
farther on a charge than a state-of-the-art motor/controller can go and
you're on you way to (possibly) convincing us. Given what you've said
so far in this post however I don't see that happening.
State-of-the-art motors/controllers just don't have much room left for
improvement. They are only a few percent away from perfect.
If you are talking about over unity, well you won't find many believers
in this crowd. A few, but not many.
Over-unity is a pipe dream. NOBODY has ever built an over unity machine
that could stand up to scientific examination. If they had they would
be millionaires. There are sever individuals and entities that are
offering prizes that total several million dollars for anybody that can
prove scientifically that they have developed an over unity device.
Last time I checked nobody has even applied to be tested.
> Then again maybe you have heard of Ed Gray he had a pretty good motor im
> told :)
>
ROTFL that quack? You don't mean to say there are still people out
there that believe in his garbage do you?
> No offence meant here, I'm just trying to point out that not all inventors
> have to rely on results based on these silly cheap meters, some of us can
> take our results and put them to work in the real world.
<sigh> it would be nice though if a few of them would rely on good solid
science. You know, something measurable, and repeatable.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Steve, ]
Thanx
Yes you are right a lot of time and effort went into this one.
I'm in New Zealand.
You are sure right, they will not complain when they run their house from
their car and they sure wont complain when there car runs all week without
charging either :)
I think I will have room for an 18 inch version of this in my little van and
once I have it running electric I will have numbers to compare with, to
gauge if it is better than the standard motor or just the same, I fully
expect it to be better, but hey reality is what its all about and if it
isn't better then I will have tried, rather than always wondering what if :)
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
garry wrote:
> I made a pulse motor and measured its draw with cheap ineffective meters
and
> it drew 12 watts, so I loaded it up using my hand on the shaft and its
> maximum draw was 25 watts.
>
> So how far out do you think this is in reality ?
Hi Garry,
You really need to get hold of some decent meters for this sort of stuff.
Go to www.dse.co.nz and do a search for "true rms". This will show you a
list of multimeters. Any of these meters should do the job reasonably well,
but you will need to have two, and take simultaneous readings for amps and
volts to find out the power. There should be one for about $140, I have one
of them and it works as far as I can tell. :-)
> The best thing was it didn't get hot at all there was not even warming in
> the transistors so this indicated to me that it was drawing the 12 watts
> rather than the 25 watts I had seen on load when testing it.
These numbers are meaningless if your meter doesn't measure true RMS.
What kind of watt-meter are you using?
> It really doesn't matter though does it, cause we all know that 25 watts
to
> move 130 odd kgs at 4 kph is just as impossible as 12 watts.
That depends on what resistance has to be overcome. On a bicycle there
wouldn't be a lot. Especially if there was a slight slope - did you turn
around and go back again?
> My web site is www.cable.net.nz/ou and the info on this is in the June
> update and the pix are on a link at the bottom of the page
> called motor3 on bike if you want to see for yourself.
Your page is a little bit broken (or maybe Internet Explorer is). It
stops in the middle of the "update march" section showing this text:
quote> The spike is greatest at the opposite end of the timing cycle rather
quote> than the one most will run with.
quote> <span lang=EN-U
I can see it all in Opera but haven't had time to read it yet.
> I have a little Suzuki Carry van that I intend to convert to electric and
> once this is completed I will build one of my motors to go in it and this
> will give proof that a motor can be built that is so much more efficient
> than you believe possible now that you will have to wonder why someone
> didn't do it before.
Good luck, and keep me posted.
--
Lesley Walker
LRW_at_clear.net.nz
[EMAIL PROTECTED] until 17 March
"[Hybrid electric vehicles] are self-sustaining,
as long as you keep putting gas in the tank."
--- James R. Healey, USA Today
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Steve (and list),
The average voltage per cell is 3.6V
100 Ah cells weigh 3.0 kg (6.6 lbs)
see http://www.thunder-sky.com/Cpjs_next(En).htm for more details.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: 1sclunn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, 5 March 2003 8:42 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: LiIons order time
what was the voltage on a sell and the lbs.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 1:52 PM
Subject: Re: LiIons order time
> Gordon Niessen wrote:
> >
> > Sorry, but my memory fails me on the details of this offer.
>
> Depending on how many participate (so far 4 or 5), we're looking at
> [constantly changing] figures:
>
> about $130/100Ah cell
> about $115/90Ah cell
> about $65/50Ah cell
>
> These are my best guesses, not locked until I get firm quote.
> And I can't get a quote until all of you respond. This Friday
> is cut off date to respond. Payment will be needed a week later.
>
> Shipping will be few hundred, split among participants proportionally
> to their share of weight, customs duty = 3.5%.
>
> This is all I have for now.
>
> Victor
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Peter,
Thanx for your comments, some of them are very valuable because I didn't
have anything to compare my results to before.
"Huh? Oh I see, calibrated guesstimation. You didn't actually measure
the power then heh?"
I like this sort of comment, it shows just how much people take in when they
read. im not here to promote free energy or over unity, im here cause its
time for me to step up from my toys to a full sized EV.
What you seem to have missed here is that I stated the facts, in that, the
running parameters of the motor were, 12 watts unloaded and 25 watts fully
loaded, and then went on to point out that at 25 watt draw the transistor
got hot, so I divided the load, so that the 2 transistors only got warm at
25 watts under load.
Now I know this is just a guestamate but I also know that you can ask any 5
year old the difference between hot, cold and warm and they will be able to
differentiate between them, so when it was cold it was a pretty good sign
that the motor was not drawing 25 watts which caused heat.
Yes I may be off on my statement that you cant move 130 kgs at 4 kph for 12
watts, but then if it didn't get warm it wasn't loaded so the speed could
have been increased until a load was applied to the motor.
By the way I got into this thread because the very meters I was using to
make my measurements were in question in it and I was just trying to show
that even those of us without expensive equipment can make measurements that
are not off the mark due to the cheap meters.
"Good for you, let's get that bike up to a respectable speed shall we?"
Nope I was thinking more along the lines of big enough to run my van :)
"State-of-the-art motors/controllers just don't have much room left for
improvement. They are only a few percent away from perfect."
Hmm, did I mention it didn't get hot somewhere, isn't heat waste ?
Do you have a state of the art controller or motor that doesn't heat up when
it is driving a vehicle, even at 4 kph ?
This motor has had 6 months of development go into it since June last year
it currently draws less and runs 800 rpm faster than it did during the
documented test on the bike which means I could probably attain the 4 kph
with only a couple of watts, if placed back on the bike in its current
setup, but that's another story.
Thanx for the numbers they give me a measuring stick now.
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lesley,
I really don't need a wizzy meter for what I do because a lot of it just
doesn't agree with people.
What I find is that no matter what "proof" you offer someone will always
want more a calorimeter for instance.
Unlike others here you are close enough that if I made some amazing claim
here, you could pop down with your meter and verify it for yourself.
My watt meter is a calculator and I simply read the battery voltage and
multiply it by the amp draw.
Yup sure did rode it up and down the workshop as did everyone else there
over the next few days.
Next time I have it together you can come test it :)
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lesley,
Its been there a while now, but I wouldn't pay more than $3000 for it cause
it really needs new batteries.
The guy who owns it buys second hand batteries for it, so none of them will
be in really good nick.
If you search deep cycle you will also see that he then on sells the
batteries he has used to people.
He told me he gets $30 for them when they are not usable in the car any more
and then upped the buy now on them first to $40 then to $50 where they are
now.
Also as you say this is an old car now and all the rest of them are very
rusty so you have to wonder just what is under the paint.
Still I would buy it if the price was right so if you like the price then go
for it.
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
A very basic question from a newbie here ...
Is there any rule of thumb way to estimate the power/torque loss between the flywheel
of the IC petrol or diesel engine and the power/torque at the driven wheels in a
series hybrid configuration ?
For example if I have an IC engine producing 200bhp and I use it to generate
electricity which drives an electric motor to (for arguments sake) a single wheel,
what will be the power at that wheel (or at the outpuit of the electric motor)?
Or is this too simplistic a scenario for some reason ?
Cheers,
Mick.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Where is it located ?
On Wed, 5 Mar 2003 19:08:34 +1300 Lesley Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
> Well, I'm amazed. I found this on TradeMe, the NZ equivalent of
> E-Bay.
> http://tinyurl.com/6vr4
> If you see a question from "Delirium" that's me, I also rang up and
> asked more questions.
>
> I think I'm going to buy it.
>
> Car: 1983 Mazda 323 (a bit old really, but...)
> Motor: ADC 9"
> Controller: Curtis 1221C
> Batteries: 96V (16 x 6V) golf cart type with recombining caps (?)
> Charger: Custom-built, probably just a transformer and recifier.
> 20A-ish.
> Range: 40km, less than I would really like but perhaps I can add
> more batts.
> Suspension: Rear springs replaced with ones intended for LPG
> installation
> Brakes: vacuum pump for power assist, metallic pads
>
> Still has seating for 5
> Has clutch and gearbox
> Rust repairs have been done
> Sounds like the brakes could really do with some upgrading, the guy
> says you have to drive carefully, and not go too fast down hills.
>
> Is there anything else I should ask about before I hit the "buy now"
> button?
>
> I expect I'll be able to use the car for short trips: grocery
> shopping, driving to the railway station etc. Visiting friends will
> probably not be on unless I can extend the range.
>
> When the car body gives up the ghost, as it no doubt will in a few
> years, perhaps I can then use the parts to do another conversion.
>
> --
> Lesley Walker
> LRW_at_clear.net.nz
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] until 17 March '03
> "[Hybrid electric vehicles] are self-sustaining,
> as long as you keep putting gas in the tank."
> --- James R. Healey, USA Today
>
>
________________________________________________________________
Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
Only $9.95 per month!
Visit www.juno.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Assuming your motors don't limit (and they will).
Engine power at that speed * Motor Efficiency(in) * Inverter
Efficiency(in) * Storage efficiency * inverter(out) efficiency *
motor(out) efficincy * transmission efficiency * final drive (tire,
axle, differential) efficiency.
A place to start for a nice AC system running at an efficient point and
not near it's thermal limit would be:
150kW*0.91*0.96*0.75*0.96*0.88*0.95*0.97 or about 80kW
A few notes: the storage efficiency is only an issue if you are using
the power later (batteries) I came to that number by using (discharge
voltage)/(charge voltage)* coulombic efficiency. I used (12/14.5)*0.90
(it is a guess, though)
If you get rid of (or don't store much energy in) the battery, the
system efficiency gets better.
The motor (out) efficiency is lower as it cannot run at a near optimal
speed all the time.
Fill in the blanks as you need and with the numbers you want.
Remember, this is power. Torque (and therefore power) can be limited by
any motor, inverter or current carrying ability of the batteries or
wire. The chain is only as strong as its weakest link.
HTH
Seth
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> A very basic question from a newbie here ...
>
> Is there any rule of thumb way to estimate the power/torque loss between the
> flywheel of the IC petrol or diesel engine and the power/torque at the driven wheels
> in a series hybrid configuration ?
>
> For example if I have an IC engine producing 200bhp and I use it to generate
> electricity which drives an electric motor to (for arguments sake) a single wheel,
> what will be the power at that wheel (or at the outpuit of the electric motor)?
>
> Or is this too simplistic a scenario for some reason ?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Mick.
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wow! 60 V device on a 48V (nominal) pack is impressive, that's very
little headroom.
Seth
Joe Smalley wrote:
>
> I have 50 of these in my 48 Volt drag car controller.
>
> I have killed two transistors over the years when I was using regen.
> I have not had a failure since I removed the regen controller.
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Seth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 7:58 PM
> Subject: Re: Rudman Reg Mark I Rev C repair parts.
>
> >
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2512272302&category=36331
> >
> > IRFZ48V MOSFETs qty 5,500.
> >
> > In case anyone is building a 24V dragster out there ;)
> >
> > --
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 5 Mar 2003 at 19:08, Lesley Walker wrote:
> Is there anything else I should ask about before I hit the "buy now" button?
Yes, this:
> Rust repairs have been done
That car is carrying a half-ton of lead. Make sure it's structurally sound.
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joe,
Please let the List know what the total cost of the
box you built and how hard it was to put together.
If you can get a picture of the box inside and out
I would like to add it to my evcharging page.
Some people would be timid about
-finding a box
-installing and
-wiring the two outlets and breakers.
For those that have done it, they find it is
no sweat. But if we document where you found it,
how it went together, and how it looks, the
timid would be empowered to be more bold.
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
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Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What about the 48V cells? Are these as reliable? It would really cut down
on the BMS complexity if you didn't have to manage some ~45 cells for a
160V system.
At 03:21 AM 3/5/2003, you wrote:
Hi Steve (and list),
The average voltage per cell is 3.6V
100 Ah cells weigh 3.0 kg (6.6 lbs)
see http://www.thunder-sky.com/Cpjs_next(En).htm for more details.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: 1sclunn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, 5 March 2003 8:42 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: LiIons order time
what was the voltage on a sell and the lbs.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 1:52 PM
Subject: Re: LiIons order time
> Gordon Niessen wrote:
> >
> > Sorry, but my memory fails me on the details of this offer.
>
> Depending on how many participate (so far 4 or 5), we're looking at
> [constantly changing] figures:
>
> about $130/100Ah cell
> about $115/90Ah cell
> about $65/50Ah cell
>
> These are my best guesses, not locked until I get firm quote.
> And I can't get a quote until all of you respond. This Friday
> is cut off date to respond. Payment will be needed a week later.
>
> Shipping will be few hundred, split among participants proportionally
> to their share of weight, customs duty = 3.5%.
>
> This is all I have for now.
>
> Victor
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I went to my local Auto Zone to pick up some mechanics gloves and saw
Optima YTs and RTs on the shelf. Just out of curiosity I asked how
much. $159 for YTs, $120 for RTs, not great prices. Then he said $109
for Blue Tops. He gave me these prices off the top of his head, so I
had him check - yep, $109 for BTs. They don't stock them, but they'll
order them.
I thought the only difference between a YT and BT was the color and some
added low-current terminals on the BT. If true, $109 sounds pretty
cheap for a non-blem Optima. I didn't ask if there was any further
discount for a quantity buy.
I'm don't use Optimas (yet), so please don't take these comments as
gospel. Just thought I'd pass it on.
Chris
P.S. The gloves were a good purchase. They're Mechanix Wear brand
http://www.mechanix.com/, all synthetic, machine washable, and allow
good dexterity and feel. (I can pick up a 1/8" drill bit with a little
difficulty.) Price is $15 or $20 depending on style (construction and
effectiveness very similar). I got them so I could work in my unheated
garage. I tried them out at 22 �F and my fingers got only a little
chilly after ~1/2 hour. Should work fine at a more sane mid-30's.
(Mechanix makes a cold weather glove that supposedly is only slightly
more cumbersome, but Auto Zone doesn't stock it.) Tip: They shrink a
bit when washed, so you don't want a "second skin" fit when new.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Garry, don't let these naysayers tell you your drive is impossible. You have
faith, and that's all you need. Too much education and research just get in the
way of creative thinking.
One suggestion -- as you develop and market your motor, make sure you use
only your own money, not anybody else's. That way, even if you end up
penniless and homeless, at least you won't go to prison.
And watch out for those wheel bearings. That's what did Tilley in.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You are invited to attend the Chico chapter of the Electric Auto Association
or "EAA".
Learn more about:
� Electric automobiles
� How to convert a car to electric
� Hybrid automobiles
� Fuel cell powered automobiles
� Compressed natural gas automobiles
This month�s topic will be demonstrations of �Sterling Cycle� engines used
in automobiles and as a power source for other equipment.
Date: Saturday, March 8th from 11am to 1pm. The meeting is FREE, and all are
welcome.
Join us at the Videomaker/York Publishing Office, located at:
1350 East 9th St. (two blocks west of Hwy 99E)
Chico, CA
We need you at the meeting to help our new EAA chapter in Chico. If you are
not now affiliated with a local chapter, we would welcome you to transfer to
our chapter.
EV's of all types (i.e.: autos, scooters, skateboards) and Hybrids are
welcome.
For more information call:
Chuck Alldrin
530-899-1835
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee, are you refering to a sterling engine? NREL has a huge solar powered
one here at their lab in Golden. It's been shut down for a long time. I
can see it from my office window.
Steve Paschke
303-205-5019
> ----------
> From: Lee Hart
> Sent: Tuesday, March 4, 2003 3:58 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Electromagnetic Drive?
>
> Humphrey, Timothy wrote:
> > The second that image popped onto my screen, I remembered reading
> > a long long time ago in a pop science type of magazine about a
> > concept to fashion a "multi-cylinder" electric motor using a
> > crankshaft. I wonder if that was it. The basis IIRC was to use
> > electrics in place of IC cylinders. That sure looks like the
> > concept I pictured in my head at that time. Solenoid drive
> > maybe? Boy how do you time something like that?
>
> The very earliest electric motors used solenoids as "electric pistons".
> This was a logical idea, based on the steam engines of the time. But
> just as steam engines evolved into steam turbines because they were more
> efficient, reciprocating electric motors evolved into the continuous
> rotary motors we have today.
>
> One strange concept that I think deserved more work was the free piston
> generator. It is basically an ICE whose piston has no crank or other
> physical connection to anything. The piston bounces back and forth
> between two cylinder heads. Power is taken out of it magnetically, to
> generate electricity.
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 08:55 AM 3/5/2003 -0600, Gordon Niessen stated:
What about the 48V cells? Are these as reliable? It would really cut
down on the BMS complexity if you didn't have to manage some ~45 cells for
a 160V system.
Yeah, BMS complexity is an issue.
I'm planning on using 50 of the 90Ah cells for my Sparrow.
(And just for fun, I figured out that I could probably fit 2 full strings
of 50 cells in the Sparrow. Just think of 180Ah of battery! Probably >
150mile range! I just can't afford that kind of setup.)
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anyone had any experience shipping Sealed Lead-acid Batteries? Looking to
get 20 batteries, 12 pounds each, from Phoenix to Houston. Local box-it
place doesn't want to touch it because of the hazardous material
issues. And Yellow Freight is a bit expensive and requires crating. And I
am in Houston, so I have no way to help with handling to keep costs down.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'll second the request (for a better look at/inside the box). I need a
welding outlet at the end of my driveway - really and truly - and might as
well also ensure it will be useful once I get my next EV project going (or
if somebody going through Snohomish needs some juice).
Kevin - Snohomish, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce EVangel Parmenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 6:49 AM
Subject: Re: Standard Public Charging Station
> Joe,
>
> Please let the List know what the total cost of the
> box you built and how hard it was to put together.
>
> If you can get a picture of the box inside and out
> I would like to add it to my evcharging page.
>
> Some people would be timid about
> -finding a box
> -installing and
> -wiring the two outlets and breakers.
>
> For those that have done it, they find it is
> no sweat. But if we document where you found it,
> how it went together, and how it looks, the
> timid would be empowered to be more bold.
>
>
>
> =====
> ' ____
> ~/__|o\__
> '@----- @'---(=
> . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> . EV List Editor & RE newswires
> . (originator of the above ASCII art)
> =====
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lesley Walker wrote:
> I found this on TradeMe, the NZ equivalent of E-Bay.
> http://tinyurl.com/6vr4
>
> I think I'm going to buy it.
> Is there anything else I should ask about before I hit the "buy now"
> button?
Looks like a good deal, if only for the parts!
Check to see if it needs batteries. 90% of the time that's why the
person is selling.
See what else needs to be fixed. It may have negligible instrumentation,
or exposed wiring, or the battery boxes may be suffering from corrosion
problems.
The Curtis 1221C is a bit small for a 9" motor, but you might get away
with it in a light car.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Garry Stanley wrote:
> I really don't need a wizzy meter for what I do because a lot of it
> just doesn't agree with people... My watt meter is a calculator and
> I simply read the battery voltage and multiply it by the amp draw.
Garry, the problem with inexpensive meters is that they don't produce
repeatable results. Your cheap meter will read differently than my cheap
meter in the same circuit. A 2:1 error is enough to invalidate your
results. Suppose your meter says it draws 1 amp (implying 100%
efficiency, but my meter says 2 amps (implying 50% efficiency).
Here is a simple experiment. Build this circuit (view with fixed width
font):
_________
AC hot __________________|AC +|________________________
| light | bridge | +_|_ capacitor | light
120vac / \ bulb |rectifier| ___ 1000uF / \ bulb
\_/ socket | | | 200vdc \_/ socket
AC neutral ____|_________|AC -|_______|________________|
|_________|
With no light bulb installed, measure the input voltage and current.
They voltage shold be 120vac, and the current very low (like 0.001 amp).
Power input is thus 120v x 0.001a = 0.12 watts.
Screw a 25 watt light bulb into the left socket. Measure the input
voltage and current again. It should be about 120vac and 0.21amps = 25
watts.
Now screw the light bulb into the right socket. Notice that is
substantially brighter! Measure your input voltage and current. The
voltage will still be 120vac. The current will have gone up a little, to
about 0.25 amps. So power input is 120v x 0.25a = 30 watts, right?
But the light bulb is producing substantially more light. Measure the
voltage and current at the light bulb. The voltage will be around 160
volts DC, and the current will be about 0.25 amps. 160v x 0.25a = 40
watts. 35 watts in, 40 watts out -- over-unity?
Before any one else answers, Garry, can you tell me what is going on
here? Why does the output power measure higher than the input power?
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paschke, Stephen wrote:
> Lee, are you refering to a sterling engine?
[Stirling engine] No, a free piston engine is a different contraption.
There are lots of variations, but here is the basic one; a 2-piston,
2-cycle diesel.
Imagine a long metal pipe, with a cap on both ends. There are two
pistons inside, with the usual piston rings. There are ports on the side
of the tube for intake and exhaust, like any 2-cycle engine.
Start with the two pistons out at the ends, compressing the air trapped
at each end cap. The intake port is uncovered, so a fresh fuel-air
charge blows in, and the exhaust from the last cycle blows out. The
pistons bounce inward, propelled by the compressed air. They close the
intake and exhaust ports. As they keep travelling inward, they compress
the fuel-air mixture. The pistons are flat-topped so they can never hit,
but they will compress the fuel-air mixture until it self-ignites. The
pistons are then thrown outward, where they again bounce off the trapped
air, and the cycle repeats.
How do you get power out of such an engine? One common way is that they
generate compressed air, using poppet valves in the bounce chambers.
German WW2 submarines had a free-piston engine about the size of a water
heater that ran on diesel fuel and geneated several hundred horsepower's
worth of compressed air.
Another way was to use it to generate hot compressed exhaust gas, to run
a turbine. GM built a car (that looked like the Batmobile :-) that had a
tiny free-piston engine under the hood, and a turbine at the rear axle.
But the one method I think could have used more development was to use
the free pistons as the armature of a generator, and so generate
electricity directly from the reciprocating motion. Test versions were
built, but I don't know of any commercial products.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gordon Niessen wrote:
>
> Anyone had any experience shipping Sealed Lead-acid Batteries?
If they truly are sealed, then you should be able to get papers from the
manufacturer to prove that they are safe to ship by normal carriers.
They are no more dangerous to ship than, say, a case of AA flashlight
batteries.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 5 Mar 2003 at 10:33, Paschke, Stephen wrote:
> Lee, are you refering to a sterling engine?
Lee is talking about a free-piston engine. This is related to the (very
intriguing) way it delivers its power to the load, and has nothing to do
with the engine's working cycle.
A Stirling engine (spelled with an I, not an E, please note) is something
else again. It's a closed-cycle external combustion heat engine that uses a
gas (air, helium, nitrogen, even hydrogen) as its working fluid.
The Stirling Engine Society has a website. It's an excellent resource to
explain Stirling engines:
http://www.sesusa.org/
You can buy a small, Canadian-made Stirling engine powered fan that sits on
your woodstove to circulate the heat. It's sold by Real Goods, among
others.
I've often wondered what could be done with a Stirling engine in a hybrid,
but I think now that controlling the size and weight would be an immense
challenge.
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
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