EV Digest 2639
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Power of DC Graphics
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Suzuki van conversion.
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Power of DC Graphics
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) FW: Power of DC Graphics
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: (US) EV bumper sticker proposal
by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Power of DC Graphics
by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Power of DC Graphics
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: New and improved bumper sticker design
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: (US) EV bumper sticker proposal
by Gordon Niessen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Gimme Level 3
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: LiIons order time
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: New and improved bumper sticker design
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) OT: computer users may enjoy reading this
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Suzuki van conversion.
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: LiIons order time - current capacity
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: ZAP evs on TV
by harsha godavari <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Suzuki van conversion.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Suzuki van conversion.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Power of DC Graphics
by John Bryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Tavrima Supercapacitors and Ultracaps
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: NBEAA-Emergency meeting change
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) San Jose EAA Meet Sat 3/8 10a-12n
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Ampabout
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) EVLN('Let them drive ICE', quick EV death, automakers not placated)
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) EVLN(Hydro-Quebec EV to the rescue)
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) EVLN(hybrids greener than h2 fcvs 'without ever plugging in')
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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On 6 Mar 2003 at 18:09, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> My Netscape shows just black screen.
Same here. I use K-Meleon, a Mozilla derivative. It downloads a big Flash
file, then just sits there.
Maybe we need a different plugin. I have Flash 3.0r8, according to my
plugins list.
What is required to view this movie? Please don't say IE. That's a non-
standards-compliant, buggy browser, with security problems; I won't allow it
on my system.
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
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On 7 Mar 2003 at 18:04, garry wrote:
> The batteries are rated at 135 amp
Is that the ^peak^ current they can deliver? It seems awfully low. Do I
recall you said you want to use 72 volts? That would be a maximum of only
9.7 kw available.
Or do you mean "135 amp-HOURS" (measure of storage capacity, not peak
power)?
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden wrote:
> On 6 Mar 2003 at 18:09, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>
> > My Netscape shows just black screen.
>
> Same here. I use K-Meleon, a Mozilla derivative. It
> downloads a big Flash
> file, then just sits there.
>
> Maybe we need a different plugin. I have Flash 3.0r8, according to my
> plugins list.
>
> What is required to view this movie? Please don't say IE.
> That's a non- standards-compliant, buggy browser, with
> security problems; I won't allow it
> on my system.
Hi David,
I'm as dumb as dirt when it comes to browsers and such. My
downloaded-for-free Opera runs this just fine. (I use it because the
mouse navigation is much more convenient than IE.)
OK, I just checked my settings, and it's set to identify itself to a
site as IE 5.0.
HTH,
Chris
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--- Begin Message ---
I wrote:
> David Roden wrote:
> > What is required to view this movie? Please don't say IE.
> > That's a non- standards-compliant, buggy browser, with
> > security problems; I won't allow it
> > on my system.
>
> Hi David,
>
> I'm as dumb as dirt when it comes to browsers and such. My
> downloaded-for-free Opera runs this just fine. (I use it
> because the mouse navigation is much more convenient than IE.)
>
> OK, I just checked my settings, and it's set to identify
> itself to a site as IE 5.0.
Sorry, I was a little too fast on the SEND button. Opera also runs this
animation when set to identify itself as Opera or Mozilla 3.0, 4.78 or
5.0. Maybe it's a plugin issue.
Chris
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--- Begin Message ---
Sheer wrote:
First of all, America buys a sizable chunk of the power for it's grid from
Canada.
Second of all, a small but measurable percentage of the power on the grid
comes from foreign fuels - imported natural gas and oil. I think it's
hovering somewhere around 10%, but I'm sure one of the number gurus can
correct me on that.
Electricity use for 2000 was (EPA numbers) 40.4 quads. Imported
electricity was 0.4 quad, about 1%. We also import about 18% of our
natural gas and use about 33% of our natural gas for electricity
production. If we split the imported natural gas equally between the
uses for natural gas then another 1.2 quad of electricity is from
imported sources (about 3%).
So I guess its about 96% domestic electrons :-)
On a side note, electric vehicles are "on the map". Slightly less
than 1/10th percent of the transportation energy is coming from the
electrical grid.
Neon
P.S. - a "quad" is equal to 10^15 BTU's
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--- Begin Message ---
On 6 Mar 2003 at 18:09, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
My Netscape shows just black screen.
David Roden wrote:
Same here. I use K-Meleon, a Mozilla derivative. It downloads a big Flash
file, then just sits there.
Maybe we need a different plugin. I have Flash 3.0r8, according to my
plugins list.
Netscape 4.7 for can handle the flash file just fine. I have a couple
different versions of the Shockwave Flash plugin. When I went back to
Shockwave Flash 4.0r27 I could not play the Power of DC file, but
6.0r65 worked great.
Neon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 6 Mar 2003 at 18:09, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
My Netscape shows just black screen.
Same here. I use K-Meleon, a Mozilla derivative. It downloads a big Flash
file, then just sits there.
Maybe we need a different plugin. I have Flash 3.0r8, according to my
plugins list.
What is required to view this movie? Please don't say IE. That's a non-
standards-compliant, buggy browser, with security problems; I won't allow it
on my system.
It works just fine on my Mac under OS X using Safari.
--
___________________________________________________
Michael Hurley Digital Print Specialist
AlphaGraphics, Inc. (901) 681-9909
1195 Ridgeway Rd. (901) 761-2139 FAX
Memphis, TN 38119 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Folks,
Many thanks to Chip Gribben for helping clean up (and improve) my
original bumper sticker design. The latest version is again posted at:
http://www.geocities.com/ironstephanie
There may be one final revision to adjust the size and/or aspect ratio
depending upon what the printer says.
We took off the "100%" text after some discussion about our electrical
energy mix. I like this new design better.
I have a meeting with the printer today. The final revision will go in
by Monday. I should know by the end of today what kind of time frame
and costs we are looking at (note that I will be selling these at cost).
I've already gotten a few order requests. Feel free to submit more
(off-list).
Dean Grannes
I like it. One question though. Does the art exist as anything other
than the .GIF posted? Say as a vector .EPS or high resolution .TIF?
If not, it will need to be recreated as such to print well. .GIFs
look terrible when printed out. If needed, I can convert the artwork
to vector quite easily and I'm happy to volunteer.
--
___________________________________________________
Michael Hurley Digital Print Specialist
AlphaGraphics, Inc. (901) 681-9909
1195 Ridgeway Rd. (901) 761-2139 FAX
Memphis, TN 38119 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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--- Begin Message ---
I have a filter that prevents foreign electrons from entering my
house. All but Canadian ones, as those guys are not too bad. It is
disguised as a X-10 RF filter. :-)
At 01:54 PM 3/7/2003, you wrote:
Sheer wrote:
First of all, America buys a sizable chunk of the power for it's grid from
Canada.
Second of all, a small but measurable percentage of the power on the grid
comes from foreign fuels - imported natural gas and oil. I think it's
hovering somewhere around 10%, but I'm sure one of the number gurus can
correct me on that.
Electricity use for 2000 was (EPA numbers) 40.4 quads. Imported
electricity was 0.4 quad, about 1%. We also import about 18% of our
natural gas and use about 33% of our natural gas for electricity
production. If we split the imported natural gas equally between the uses
for natural gas then another 1.2 quad of electricity is from imported
sources (about 3%).
So I guess its about 96% domestic electrons :-)
On a side note, electric vehicles are "on the map". Slightly less than
1/10th percent of the transportation energy is coming from the electrical grid.
Neon
P.S. - a "quad" is equal to 10^15 BTU's
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--- Begin Message ---
Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
>
> OK perhaps its California Dreaming
> (and no I have not been toking, snorting, or drinking.
> Despite the TV show, the 70's are gone).
>
> While charging at a private location, a construction
> crew had tapped into the plant's 3 phase 480 VAC. They..
snip
IMHO, it is better to carry a pack large enough not to worry
about reaching your typical destinations within one day,
so you can *always* recharge normally while you sleep,
than have tiny pack lasting 30 miles @ %80DOD you have to
blast 100A into every hour to get around.
Level 3 charger may cost you as much as nice advances pack,
the difference is it is up to YOU to have that pack and
gain independence from level 3 stations SOMEONE, MAY BE,
will put all over map for you.
My 2 mm.
Victor
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Even if this is the case, real driving *is* pulsed discharge for sure.
Victor
Evan Tuer wrote:
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > According to the specs, discharge is up to 3C = 300a from 100ahr cells. Max
> > recharge is .3C =30a.
>
> Ed, please be careful, I think the spec has been updated - latest I have seen
> recommends 0.3C continuous discharge, maximum 1.5C, above that you
> need "pulsed" discharge, I take that as meaning non continuous duty.
> It might be an expensive difference.
>
> Evan.
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Just printed it out and the contrast is much better. Lawrence Rhodes......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Grannes, Dean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVDL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, March 07, 2003 9:47 AM
Subject: New and improved bumper sticker design
> Folks,
>
> Many thanks to Chip Gribben for helping clean up (and improve) my
> original bumper sticker design. The latest version is again posted at:
>
> http://www.geocities.com/ironstephanie
>
> There may be one final revision to adjust the size and/or aspect ratio
> depending upon what the printer says.
>
> We took off the "100%" text after some discussion about our electrical
> energy mix. I like this new design better.
>
> I have a meeting with the printer today. The final revision will go in
> by Monday. I should know by the end of today what kind of time frame
> and costs we are looking at (note that I will be selling these at cost).
> I've already gotten a few order requests. Feel free to submit more
> (off-list).
>
> Dean Grannes
>
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http://rinkworks.com/stupid/
I'm sure everyone have heard at least one story to contribute
to this list...
Victor
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi David,
Yes they seem a bit low for their weight, but for $10 each they will do for
initial testing.
The 135 amp hour rate is the only info I could find for these and to be
honest it didn't really make much sense for the size of them.
I would have expected to have 200 odd amp hours in a battery this weight.
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
I'm sorry, I should have spelt it out a little clearer.
(Expressions in one version of English sometimes don't have the same meaning in
another)
Based on the manufacturers specs for the batteries, my car will be considerably
over-powered.
Voltage = 40 x 3.6V = 144V
Capacity (Ah) = 100Ah
Capacity (kWh) = 100A x 144V = 14.4kWh
Power at 3CA = 3 x 100A x 144V = 43.2 kW
Power at 10CA = 10 x 100A x 144V = 144 kW
Now, the grain of salt includes:
That the voltage will drop with high current draws.
That the batteries may overheat with high current draws.
That the actual batteries I get will not be up to the specs published on the web site.
That neither the motor, nor the controller are 100% efficient.
Now just how much power do you need to move 600kg (1,300lb) of car around?
Using Uve's page (based on small car, but with a bad Cd) I get 16HP required to
maintain 60 mph (about 21kW for 100km/h).
I think I've left a large enough margin for error.
(Especially with over 100kW available for short bursts)
Like I said, when I actually build it, I can tell you what the real numbers are.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Gordon Niessen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, 8 March 2003 12:42 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: LiIons order time - current capacity
Just as you wouldn't use 48V MOSFETs for a 48V controller, I wouldn't build
to 100% of the discharge. It would really hurt to burn out a $15,000
battery pack.
But you could always use a few Super Capacitors to boost the peak power
available. But that wouldn't help with the continuous discharge number.
At 06:04 AM 3/7/2003, you wrote:
>Hi all
>
>I asked Thunder-Sky about the current draw on their cells in January.
>
>They basically said that the cells are capable of 3CA continuous current.
>
>I asked John Grzan (Worley) a similar question about his cells (same cells
>- perhaps the pick of the crop).
>He said similarly that the cells are capable of 3CA continuous current,
>and can peak at 10CA for short periods.
>
>So, taking these claims with the obligatory grain of salt, I reckon that
>40 x 100Ah jobbies will do a good job of pushing my 600kg Clubman around,
>with an occasional burst of power to keep things fun.
>(No I can't be any more specific than that until I actually build the
>thing and find out what the real performance is)
>
>Your mileage will most definitely vary.
>
>Mark
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Tonight at 6:00 CST there was a segment on ZAP vehicles on Discovery
Channel. The segment (Daily Planet: Technology,Nature) is going to be
repeated at 10:00 PM (22:00)
The anchor said that ZAPs are expected to be priced around 15000 USD
and might be selling them in Canada, next year!!
Regards
Harsha Godavari
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Garry Stanley wrote:
> Yes [this battery's capacity] seems a bit low for their weight,
> but for $10 each they will do for initial testing. The 135 amp hour
> rate is the only info I could find for these and to be honest it
> didn't really make much sense for the size of them.
A lead-acid battery's amphour capacity is strongly affected by the time
over which you discharge it. For example, a typical 6v 28kg golf cart
battery (Trojan T-105) will deliver:
225 amphours if discharged at the 20-hour rate (11.25 amps for 20 hours)
174 amphours if discharged at the 5-hour rate (34.8 amps for 5 hours)
144 amphours if discharged in 115 minutes (75 amps for 1.92 hours)
So, the 135 amphour rating might have been its capacity at 75 amps (a
standard load for golf cart battery testing).
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Garry Stanley wrote:
> I was thinking a generator as you suggested for lighting
If your traction motor has an easy way to put a pulley on the back end,
then you can use it to run the stock generator or alternator. Or, just
put in a deep-cycle 12v battery, and run your lights, horn, radio, etc.
from it, and recharge it when you are parked and charging the rest of
the pack.
> I'm aware of the brake issue with these vans... from a diesel and
> this would give me vacuum to run an after market booster on the brakes.
I think you meant to say that you would add an electrically-driven
vacuum pump from a diesel, to operate vacuum-assisted power brakes. This
is what is usually done when converting a car that needs vacuum for its
power brakes.
> I suspect you are right it looks like it might lose the gearbox too,
> not because I want to remove it but because in this instance it seems
> practical to lose it in favor of higher voltage.
EVs designed from the ground up don't have transmissions. Electric
motors have plenty of torque without them.
Most converted EVs have transmissions just because it is easier to keep
it. The transmission can also make up for not having an optimal
differential ratio for a 1-speed vehicle. And, if you have a
transmission, you can skimp on the motor and/or controller sizes to save
money.
> I'm quite happy to settle for 50kph with this and concentrate on range
> rather than speed.
In that case, you should be fine with 72v. It will be slow but long
range.
> I'm a bit up in the air over the controller, my tug has a simple (big)
> contact type of controller rated 48 volts and 205 amps but only draws
> 60 amps as far as I can see.
The motor draws whatever current it needs to supply the necessary
torque. Coasting downhill, the motor will speed way up and draw almost
no current. Going uphill, it will slow down, but draw considerably more
current.
Contactor controlers are nothing but switches. They switch the batteries
into several different series-parallel arrangements to get various
speeds. For example, you would wire your 72v pack as two 36v packs. The
controller wires them in parallel for 36v, or series for 72v. There is
usually also a big starting resistor which is switched in series with
the motor when starting from a dead stop, to avoid the "jerk" and allow
smoother starts.
If you keep the transmission, a 3-step contactor controller is enough:
off - all contactors off
1st - batteries in parallel (36v). resistor in series with motor
2nd - same, but short the resistor
3rd - batteries in series (72v). resistor still shorted
If you don't use the transmission, provide another step or two.
off
1st - batteries wired for 18v, and resistor in series with motor
2nd - batteries wired for 18v, resistor shorted
3rd - batteries wired for 36v, resistor shorted
4th - batteries wired for 72v, resistor shorted
5th - batteries wired for 72v, resistor wired across motor's field
> I suspect plastic will be my answer for a battery cover, clear, so
> that I can keep an eye on the pack if necessary.
That's good. Don't use acrylic (plexiglass) or other brittle plastics;
you want one with good impact resistance.
> a forklift is designed to run all day... means 5 hours continuous
> running not 8 hours, because on average with starts and stops etc.
> you only use it for 5 hours.
Like all things, there are cheap ones and good ones. A cheap battery may
barely run 5 hours, but there are also premium ones that run an honest 8
hours. And, most fork lifts have quick-change battery packs. Many
companies have one on charge and one in the forklift, and swap them each
shift, so the forklift is runinng nearly 24 hours a day.
> My tug weighs close to a ton and its 156 amp hour battery pack weighs
> 480 kg with a top speed of 15 kph and a draw at cruise of 30 amps.
> It all fits nicely together, 30 into 150 goes 5 with a little left
> over for those 60 amp starts.
>
> I'm thinking I could double the speed with no ill effect here, it
> should still run in my van at 30 kph for 5 hours and the range
> should double, because of the way its set up.
But, it won't. There are 5 factors that determine how much horsepower it
takes to move at a given speed;
1. Friction: This covers things like tire rolling resistance, as well as
friction in all the moving parts. Frictional losses are pretty much
constant at any speed. Since horsepower = force time distance, the
same friction at double the speed needs double the horsepower.
2. Stirring losses: This covers types of friction that increase as
you go faster, like stirring oil in gearboxes, magnetic losses in
motors, pneumatic losses like compressors or vacuum pumps, etc.
Doubling the speed also increases these losses, so you need more
like triple the horsepower to go twice as fast.
3. Aerodynamic lossses: This covers wind resistance, and fighting
headwinds. These losses go up as the square of the speed, so to go
twice as fast you need four times the horsepower to overcome these.
4. Grade: Going uphill obviously requires more force. Luckily, most
routes end up back at the same height as when they started, so the
up and down parts cancel each other out. So in most cases you can
ignore grade.
5. Accelleration: To accellerate, you have to provide more horsepower
than it takes to maintain that speed. If you had perfect
regenerative brakes, you could recover all the accelleration
energy when you slowed down. Practical regenerative brakes recover
less than half the energy, and vehicles with normal friction brakes
don't recover any of the horsepower used for accelleration.
So, if you double your speed, how much extra horsepower do you need? It
depends on how much horsepower each of the above is using.
Suppose at 15kph you are using 3 horspower, and that (by coincidence), 1
HP goes to friction, 1 HP to stirring, and 1 HP to wind resistance. How
much horsepower would it take to double your speed?
speed 15 kph 30 kph
----- ------ ------
friction: 1 HP x 2 = 2 HP
stirring: 1 HP x 3 = 3 HP
wind: 1 HP x 4 = 4 HP
==== ====
total 3 HP 9 HP
So, doubling your speed took 3 times the horsepower.
Suppose you want to double your speed again. Notice that now wind
resistance is a much bigger factor!
speed 15 kph 30 kph 60 kph
----- ------ ------ ------
friction: 1 HP x 2 = 2 HP x 2 = 4 HP
stirring: 1 HP x 3 = 3 HP x 3 = 9 HP
wind: 1 HP x 4 = 4 HP x 4 = 16 HP
==== ==== =====
total 3 HP 9 HP 29 HP
The horsepower required went up MORE than 3:1. And now the horsepower is
so high that other factors get in your way. The motor can't deliver that
much power. Even if it could, the batteries would be run dead very
quickly -- and that means they deliver a much smaller fraction of their
amphour capacity.
> the tug runs 5 hours on 48 volts, and the forklift runs 5 hours on
> 72 volts... If I use the same 16 batteries on the tug I would get
> 10 hours continuous running from it at the same speed and therefore
> twice the range.
For low-speed vehicles like your tug and fork lift, the frictional and
stirring losses are a large part of your total horsepower. If you add
weight, you add to the rolling resistance, so the range will not go up
in proportion to the extra battery weight (doubling battery weight does
not double range).
But in a high-speed highway EV, where wind resistance is a big part of
your total horsepower, adding weight does not matter as much (it doesn't
change wind resistance). So, doubling battery weight will give you about
twice the range.
> Everyone is recommending going up in voltage yet it looks to me like
> going down is better so I must have the math's wrong somewhere?
We were suggesting higher voltages because your motor will run at a low
rpm at 72v. With your differential ratio, it might not go fast enough.
But if you are trying to get a long range, then the low voltage is fine.
It will match the motor voltage better; you can just connect the battery
pack straight to the motor for cruising, and run for hours. But, how far
would you want to drive at 15 kph? :-)
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
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--- Begin Message ---
My antiquated system seems to lock up at half of the animations that
I try to run....the terrible plague of ads these days may finally force me
to upgrade, some of them bring me to a crawl. But Chip's into!! That ruled!
It ran flawlessly, and my favorite part is the outstanding car graphic. The
component details under the hood just blew me out of my chair. Great job, Chip!
...John
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Dated perhaps, from 2000, but may interest some here? I searched the
EVList yahoo archives back to Feb.2001 and could only find Tavrima
mentioned re a Tour de Sol vehicle in 2002...
http://www.tavrima.com/pub01.html
Tavrima Supercapacitors Prove Their Worth in Hybrid Electric Vehicle
Storage Systems.
Frank Lev Tavrima Canada Ltd
Presented at: SAE-2000
[exerpt]
The first phase of the NASA Hybrid Electric Transit Bus (HETB), project
has proven the viability of super-capacitors. In the concluding
remarks, in their technical memorandum, the NASA project team indicates
that test results clearly demonstrate the capacitors superiority to
batteries in this application, necessitating further development
efforts with the capacitors due to their distinct advantages. [4]
[end]
anywhooo.... the site has a couple of other papers and products that
may be of interest too, to the ev and ultra cap crowd (dragsters?)
Lock
______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
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I will still plan on being at the meeting site from about
10-10:30 March 8 (that's the correct date, not March 9), since
there are those who aren't on the EVDL.
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
----- Original Message -----
From: michael bearden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: EVDL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, March 07, 2003 8:01 AM
Subject: NBEAA-Emergency meeting change
> My apologies to the rest of the List...but I need to get the
word out to
> the North Bay Electric Auto Association-and I don't have access
to the
> individual e-mails-
> North Bay members-please send this message out-
> I am supposed to be the host/speaker for the meeting tomorrow,
March 9th
> at Sonoma State University. Because of a complication from my
recent
> knee surgery, I cannot be on campus until I am cleared by the
doctor to
> return to work. I expected him to clear me yesterday, but he
kept me on
> leave until the end of March, so I am unable to follow through
on my
> commitment to my EV friends this time.
> I might be able to get away with it if I hadn't gotten busted
by HR on
> Monday for attending a staff meeting and being told in very
clear terms
> to "Stay away!"
> I apologize for any inconvenience and especially for the late
notice and
> hope to re-schedule the EV-ent in the future.
> If you wish to reply on this, please reply to me off-list.
> Michael Bearden
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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On the second Saturday of every month, the San Jose EAA
Chapter http://geocities.com/sjeaa/ meets at Reid Hillview
Airport.
On 3/8 we are going to have a Monterey Sparrow-naut come
to our meeting (he will likely have to ICE his way as public
EV charging is not established between San Jose and Monterey).
He wants to expand his EV addiction to rid himself of an ICE.
He is seeking to know what EV options are for a family
vehicle.
The SJEAA has always wanted to encourage a Santa Cruz and
Monterey Chapter to be started. So it is exciting to know
another EV'r in those areas.
I have already encouraged him to join the EV List and
discuss his ideas. But he will be at tour SJEAA meet tomorrow.
See you there :-)
=====
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After hearing 'don't bother, there are 300 applications
already for that one job' I gave up and headed home.
But I was low on amps, so I stopped off and let my
Zivan NG5 and PFC-50 push 70 amps into my pack. I
got tired of hearing the PFC-50 fans start to slow
down as the charge current tapered quickly, so I
looked around to pass the time.
I got to see a rare sight. A bright red NiMH gen2 EV1
http://geocities.com/brucedp/images/ev1redt.jpg
was nursing off a tall LPI (large paddle inductive)
http://geocities.com/evcharging/images/inductivechargersgen1large.jpg
The magnecharger display said --FULL--, then flashed
-SERVICE-. Which I think means the pack is full and
GM's firmware is wasting power to cool an already
cool pack.
The EV1 was a work vehicle. It had the starbucks foam
cup in one cup-holder, and a half wadded Bking bag
in the other. Yet the EV1 was freshly washed, and tire
black applied. A small EV1 brochure kit for display
purposes was tucked behind the passenger seat, and a
sun shade behind the drivers side.
A nice looking EV. Too bad they are all but gone.
After I drove home, and stopped off at a local shopping
center, I parked in front of a new HUMVEE just screaming
'I have way too much money, and could care-less about
the mileage' http://humvee.net
>From enviro eye-candy to eye-sore ... Ouch!
...
I hope to get a full charge tonight and see if my four
weaker batts will let me make it to the SJEAA meet
tomorrow. I will have 120 VAC charging while I am there.
I will have to call tomorrow to see if I will be getting
my replacement batts.
:-zzz
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--- Begin Message ---
EVLN('Let them drive ICE', quick EV death, automakers not placated)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV informational
purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2000/12/08/tech/main255982.shtml
December 8, 2000 23:45:56
Board Unplugs Electric Car Plan
LOS ANGELES, Dec. 8, 2000
Less electric cars like this will be on California roads if a clean
air ruling gets scaled back. (CBS)
Regulators and environmentalists have considered electric vehicles
to be the gold standard of air pollution cleanup, but leading
automakers had complained that the state board's rules would make
them force an expensive technology with low environmental benefits
on consumers who don't want it. (AP) California regulators are
concluding that the drive to cleaner air shouldn't necessarily be in
an electric car.
In a move that alarmed environmentalists but failed to placate
automakers, staff for the state's air-quality board Friday proposed
to sharply scale back a rule that would put thousands of
battery-powered vehicles on California roads by 2003.
Automakers would instead be allowed to sell more vehicles that use
other emission-cutting technologies. Examples include the Toyota
Prius or Honda Insight � which use both gas and electric motors � or
cars that run on natural gas.
The proposal is intended to take some of the expense out of a
decade-old set of rules widely credited with sparking a host of
innovations that cut motor vehicle pollution. The state Air
Resources Board, which directed its staff to draft the revisions in
September, will vote on the proposal next month.
Clean-air advocates complained the change would halt the progress
made so far toward making electric cars cheap and available enough
to be a feasible option for California drivers. Production must
increase if the technology, particularly batteries, is ever going to
get cheaper, they argue.
"What we're setting up here is a slow death rather than a quick
death," said Tim Carmichael, executive director of the Los
Angeles-based Coalition for Clean Air.
California's zero-emission rules have been a model for much of the
country. New York, for instance, has adopted the state's
requirements, and other states are considering following suit.
The rules, which the board revisits every two years, presently
require zero-emission vehicles to make up 4 percent of annual sales
by 2003. An additional 6 percent would have to be cars that fall
just short of the zero-emission standard.
The proposed changes would split the 4 percent requirement between
zero-emission vehicles and cars that use "advanced technologies"
such as natural gas, hybrid electric or fuel cell engines.
Because of weighting and other factors, the changes would cut the
number of battery-powered cars required by 2003 from an estimated
22,000 to 4,650.
Regulators and environmentalists have considered electric vehicles
to be the gold standard of air pollution cleanup, but leading
automakers had complained that the state board's rules would make
them force an expensive technology with low environmental benefits
on consumers who don't want it.
Those complaints did not cease with Friday's proposal, even though
board staff estimates the changes would save automakers hundreds of
millions of dollars a year.
"We are aggressively opposed to mandates in all forms," said General
Motors spokesman Donn Walker. "If there was a market for electric
vehicles in California, (the board) wouldn't need a mandate."
Automakers on Thursday proposed that the board drop its mandate for
cleaner vehicles and set up a "fair market test" to see if
Californians will actually by alternative vehicles. They say
spending millions of dollars on marketing has shown interest in
alternative vehicles to be virtually nonexistent, a contention
electric-car advocates dispute.
"I think a fair market test is to get the vehicles out now and let
consumers jump in," said Bonnie Holmes-Gen, spokeswoman for the
American Lung Association of California. "Consumer demand has been
whetted" by the roughly 2,300 electric vehicles running in
California because of earlier requirements, she said.
�2000 The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.
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--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(Hydro-Quebec EV to the rescue)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV informational
purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
Hydro-Quebec in Electric Car Joint Venture
Tue Mar 4, 1:33 PM ET
MONTREAL (Reuters) - Hydro-Quebec, the Canadian power utility, said
on Tuesday it will team up with French companies Dassault and
Heuliez to produce a low-pollution electric vehicle.
The cars will be powered by technology developed by Hydro-Quebec,
one of North America's largest electricity producers and
distributors. No financial details were released.
"I am personally convinced of the future of electric vehicles," the
utility's president and chief executive, Andre Caille, said in a
statement sent to Reuters.
Caille said Hydro-Quebec had developed expertise over the past 10
years in manufacturing an electric vehicle drive system. The utility
invested in developing an electric car in the 1990s but retreated
because the venture did not seem financially viable.
The Montreal-based utility, owned by the Quebec government, said it
will deal with France's SVE (Societe de Vehicules Electriques),
mainly owned by Groupe Industriel Marcel Dassault -- the founding
family of French aircraft maker Dassault Aviation -- and Groupe
Henri Heuliez.
Hydro-Quebec said it will provide the vehicle's power system,
including the electric drivetrain and the lithium-metal-polymer
(LMP) battery. It added that Dassault and Heuliez were completing
the electric vehicle prototype, which will be unveiled in a few
months.
The first markets targeted are commercial and institutional fleets
in Europe and North America.
Hydro-Quebec said the electric car would also help the province curb
greenhouse gas emissions, as required under Kyoto Protocol (news -
web sites), with Canada ratified late last year.
The international Kyoto agreement aims to reduce climate-changing
emissions from the developed world, which account for the
overwhelming bulk of pollution, to below 1990 levels by 2012.
Around 100 countries have ratified the protocol but Australia and
the United States have remained outside the agreement.
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EVLN(hybrids greener than h2 fcvs 'without ever plugging in')
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV informational
purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
Science - Reuters
Study Finds Hybrid Cars Greener Than Hydrogen Cars
Thu Mar 6, 2:12 PM ET
NEW YORK (Reuters) - Hybrid cars, which combine electric motors with
small petroleum engines, will outpace the environmental benefits of
hydrogen fuel cell cars until at least 2020, according to a
university study.
Hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles have low emissions and energy use on the
road, but converting a hydrocarbon fuel such as natural gas or
gasoline into hydrogen to fuel such vehicles uses substantial energy
and emits greenhouse gases, the study said.
The Massachusetts Institute of Technology (news - web sites) study
was published after the Bush administration announced in January an
initiative to develop hydrogen fuel cells. Combined with last year's
government-industry "Freedom Car" program to build vehicles fueled
by hydrogen, the initiative will be powered by $1.2 billion in
government funds.
Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham (news - web sites) said in January
it should be cost-effective to produce hydrogen-fuel cars in large
numbers and have them in showrooms by 2020.
The cars could reduce U.S. demand for foreign oil by 11 million
barrels per day by 2040, according to the Energy Department.
But even with aggressive research, a hydrogen fuel-cell vehicle
would not be better than a diesel hybrid in terms of total energy
use and greenhouse gas emissions by 2020, the study said.
That's because virtually all industrial hydrogen supply at the
moment comes from natural gas. In the future, analysts say, large
amounts of hydrogen will be separated from water, where it bonds
with oxygen, through the use of alternative energies like wind and
solar power.
But for now, the green method of making hydrogen is too expensive,
according to the study. "If we learn how to do it, I think that's
absolutely wonderful, but I wouldn't hold my breath," said Malcolm
Weiss, a researcher with MIT's Laboratory for Energy and
Environment.
"Ignoring the emissions and energy use involved in making and
delivering the fuel and manufacturing the vehicle gives a misleading
impression," he said.
Beyond 2020, hydrogen cars will win out, predicted the researchers,
who do not recommend stopping work on the hydrogen fuel cell. "If
auto systems with significantly lower greenhouse gas emissions are
required in, say, 30 to 50 years, hydrogen is the only major fuel
option identified to date," said John Heywood, an MIT researcher.
That hydrogen would have to be produced without making greenhouse
gas emissions, through a non-carbon source such as solar energy, or
from conventional fuels while sequestering the carbon emissions
underground.
So far, Japan's Honda Motor Co. (news - web sites) Ltd. and Toyota
Motor Corp. (news - web sites) are the leading makers of hybrid
automobiles. Hybrids have fossil fuel engines that work
alternatively or in concert with electric motors to reduce smog
emissions and increase fuel economy, without ever having to be
plugged in.
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