EV Digest 2638
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Suzuki van conversion.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Power loss in series Hybrid setup
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: hev-charging
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Suzuki van conversion.
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Suzuki van conversion.
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Thank You all for the information about what EVs people want.
by Lee Workman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: LiIons order time
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Suzuki van conversion.
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Gimme Level 3
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) out-of-date EV information
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: ampabout
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: LiIons order time
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: LiIons order time - current capacity
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: LiIons order time - current capacity
by Gordon Niessen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: The Ultimate Resume (the forklift on steroids), pt. 2 YES!
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Free Tech Paper on Four Steps to Building an EV
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) Re: Gimme Level 3 training story
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) NBEAA-Emergency meeting change
by michael bearden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) OT - a little, simple electric powered wood go-cart project kits
by beckettw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) New and improved bumper sticker design
by "Grannes, Dean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: New and improved bumper sticker design
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
22) RE: In Other News : Ford Takes a Loss on Hybrid Escape
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Good to hear some details on your project, Garry. This lets us make some
estimates on how it is likely to perform, and suggest some things to
help make the project a success.
Garry Stanley wrote:
> ...if anyone has any suggestions or comments about this project
> I am keen to hear them.
> 1985 Suzuki st90 van... just over 800kg... 1600kg gross weight
> Motor: 10 inch 72 volt 7.5 horsepower 1750 rpm
7.5 HP is on the low side for a 1600kg vehicle. It would be OK for slow
speeds around the neighborhood at 50 kph or less, but not for highway
use.
But forklift motors are extremely conservatively designed. You will find
that you can easily apply twice the voltage to it without harm, and that
it can easily run 3 or 4 times faster than 1750 rpm.
The 7.5 horsepower is its 1-hour rating at its rated 72 volts (7.5 HP
for one hour before it reaches its maximum operating temperature). If
you double the voltage, it will run twice as fast and deliver twice the
horsepower, and not run any hotter (because it will be drawing its
normal current). So, I would suggest a higher battery pack voltage, like
96-120v, if your controller and charger can be adapted for it. This will
give you enough horsepower for good performance.
> Batteries: Chloride power safe 33kg per 6 volt (pack weight 390kg)
It sounds like these are plain old flooded deep-cycle batteries. I would
guess they are rated at 200-250 amphours at the 20-hour discharge rate.
They will deliver about half this if discharged at the 1-hour rate, i.e.
100-125 amps for 1 hour.
A 7.5 HP motor running at 75% overall efficiency will use about 10 KW of
energy. At 72v, that's 139 amps. So, your batteries can run the motor at
full power for less than an hour. Your batteries will go dead before the
motor overheats. This is another point in favor of running the motor at
a higher voltage.
> Charger: factory Lansing unit.
Is is just a simple transformer-rectifier charger (like a giant car
battery charger)? Or, is it electronically controlled (circuit boards
full of parts). Simple chargers can often be converted for other output
voltages.
Or, you can rewire your batteries in parallel for charging, and series
for driving.
> There is a second lift motor on this that looks to be about 7 inches
> diameter and probably revs higher but I haven't found a name plate
> on it yet.
The lift motor is designed for a very short duty cycle -- like 5 minutes
on-time per hour. You wouldn't want to use one as your traction motor.
> Controller: factory unit for motor.
Is it an old-style contactor controller, or a more modern electronic
controller? If it's a contactor controller, it's pretty easy to adapt it
to a different voltage. If it's an electronic controller, you have to
stay within its voltage ratings.
> The van does not have power brakes and anyone familiar with these
> little vans will know that they have brakes that stand them on their
> front wheels when unloaded, my battery pack at 390kg sitting in the
> back should prevent that.
A small Suzuki van was imported into the US in the 1980s, and Jet
Industries converted a number of them into EVs. Inadequate brakes were a
serious weak point for them.
> The batteries are going inside and will require a sealed compartment
> that is also vented to the outside
That is a good plan. Make the box out of something that won't be
affected by battery acid. Avoid wood and steel. Best choice is plastic;
polyethylene, PVC, and ABS are all good. At least here, you can buy them
by the sheet, and they are easy to cut, bend, and hot-air weld to make
very solid boxes.
You can also make the box out of fiberglass if you use epoxy (not
polyester) resins.
Aluminum also works; it resists acid as long as it NEVER comes in
contact with any steel. Aluminum corrodes vigorously in contact with
steel if it gets acid on it.
Stainless steel also works, but it is expensive, heavy, and hard to work
with.
> Problems encountered before starting:
> The motor speed of 1750 rpm coupled with the diff ratio of 5.1 to 1
> and the diameter of the wheel at 550 means the top speed of this is
> going to be 33 kph and means the gearbox would only end up being dead
> weight, unless I can get a motor that goes faster or a diff with a 2.1
> to 1 ratio for this.
A 5:1 differential is perfect for an EV. You want the motor to be
turning a lot faster than 1750 rpm. Electric motors *like* high rpm --
they are more efficient, draw less current, and run cooler.
Your real problem is that the motor runs too slowly at 72 volts. That's
why I would try hard to increase the battery pack voltage. It makes the
motor run faster, so the differential ratio will be fine.
> I am wondering how many of you drive your EV at night?
Pretty much everyone. We normally have an accessory 12v battery to power
the lights, horn, etc. This battery is either charged when you charge
the main pack, or you have an alternator driven off the propulsion
motor, or an electronic DC/DC converter to charge it from the propulsion
pack.
Best wishes!
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Motors and generators are roughly 80 to 90% efficient. If you run a
generator off the engine and then use the electricity to turn a motor, then
you have an efficiency of 64% (both 80% efficient) to 81% (both 90%
efficient).
Your numbers may vary but the concept is the same: multiply the generator
efficiency times the motor efficiency to get overall efficiency. If there is
a motor controller, you will need to multiply by that efficiency as well.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 3:19 AM
> Subject: Power loss in series Hybrid setup
>
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > A very basic question from a newbie here ...
> >
> > Is there any rule of thumb way to estimate the power/torque loss between
> the flywheel of the IC petrol or diesel engine and the power/torque at the
> driven wheels in a series hybrid configuration ?
> >
> > For example if I have an IC engine producing 200bhp and I use it to
> generate electricity which drives an electric motor to (for arguments
sake)
> a single wheel, what will be the power at that wheel (or at the outpuit of
> the electric motor)?
> >
> > Or is this too simplistic a scenario for some reason ?
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Mick.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Comments inserted..
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "veena" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "ev discussion list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 7:16 AM
Subject: hev-charging
> hi all
> thanks to all those replied to my mails regarding battery charging.
>
> in the car that we are making, we are having a charger that gets a 220V ac
> supply and charges the 48V 100Ah battery pack. during the time we run the
> engine, the generator's electric output(dc) is going to be shared by the
> batteries for charging and by the traxion motor for cruising. can we just
> make use of the natural flow of potential of electrons to charge the
> batteries that is at a lower potential and the motor that is at a much
lower
> potential takes up the rest of the power. if this is ok, do i need a
charge
> regulator in between my battery and generator?
Yes, you need to cut back the generator when the battery is full and the car
is stopped.
> if we use the natural flow of potential, will the battery take just what
it
> wants and send the rest of the power to the motor?
Bad idea. The throttle needs to control the power going to the motor. The
excess power needs to go to the battery. If more energy is being produced
than the motor and battery can accept, then there needs to be some provision
to turn down the generator/engine combination.
> thank you
> veena
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lee,
You have just blown some of my theories out of the water :(
I'm aware of the brake issue with these vans, even without the battery
weight in there they don't seem good.
I was thinking a generator as you suggested for lighting, from a diesel and
this would give me vacuum to run an after market booster on the brakes.
I don't know the weight of the motor im planning on using but I suspect it
will be less than the motor radiator water and petrol tank and fuel that the
van is carrying now so my base weight should be under 800 kg before the
batteries go in.
Because I suspect you are right it looks like it might lose the gearbox too,
not because I want to remove it but because in this instance it seems
practical to lose it in favor of higher voltage.
The batteries are rated at 135 amp, not ideal considering the weight but
perfect when the price is considered for something to start with.
I'm quite happy to settle for 50kph with this and concentrate on range
rather than speed.
I'm a bit up in the air over the controller, my tug has a simple (big)
contact type of controller rated 48 volts and 205 amps but only draws 60
amps as far as I can see.
The forklift im looking at here has this same large controller panel but
also has a box under the floor that more resembles the newer type of
controllers I have seen in pictures, but without removing panels I really
cant say at this point what does what, maybe the smaller newer looking box
controls the lift motor.
I suspect plastic will be my answer for a battery cover, clear, so that I
can keep an eye on the pack if necessary.
You seem to be able to predict the efficiency of these things really well so
perhaps you can sort out the flaw in my thinking with these things.
I will use my tug as an example here because I have data from it that seems
correct
The problem I have is this a forklift or any such devise leaves the factory
designed to run all day, when they run down at afternoon tea time, and you
ring up you are told that "all day" in electric vehicle terms means 5 hours
continuous running not 8 hours, because on average with starts and stops etc
you only use it for 5 hours.
My tug weight close to a ton and its 156 amp hour battery pack weighs 480 kg
with a top speed of 15 kph and a draw at cruise of 30 amps.
It all fits nicely together, 30 into 150 goes 5 with a little left over for
those 60 amp starts.
Now bearing in mind that this unit is setup to pull around a trailer all day
for its 30 amp draw and its overall weight im thinking I could double the
speed with no ill effect here, it should still run in my van at 30 kph for 5
hours and the range should double, because of the way its set up.
So if I double the speed again to 60 kph I should get 2.5 hours running from
it wind direction permitting :).
Now comes the interesting bit, the forklift works the same way except that
it moves its additional weight on it instead of pulling it behind it, so if
you cut the half a ton of weight on the forklift that is nor required when
its not lifting again it should go faster with no penalty to running time.
So back to the standard units for a moment.
This is where I lose it, the tug runs 5 hours on 48 volts and the forklift
runs 5 hours on 72 volts, it would be nice if the forklift was 96 volts
because the math's im getting wrong would be easier, so for the sake of this
lets say the forklift is 96 volts and runs for 5 hours.
Now looking at this in battery terms I have to use 8 33 kg 6 volt batteries
to move my tug at 15 kph for 5 hours and 16 to move the forklift just cause
I have increased voltage.
If I use the same 16 batteries on the tug I would get 10 hours continuous
running from it at the same speed and therefore twice the range.
Everyone is recommending going up in voltage yet it looks to me like going
down is better so I must have the math's wrong somewhere ?
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Peter,
Thanx for the comments.
That guy who said nothing is ever as easy as it seems should have got a
medal :)
I plan on overkill for securing the batteries, but there is a bit of weight
I hadn't considered in this :)
Your suggestion that it wont go much faster with factory bit than it did in
the fork lift rang a bell too.
I was thinking that if the forklift is designed to move a couple of tons and
weighs about the same that I could probably squeeze 2 or 3 times the speed
from it without shortening the time the batteries ran it for, but my recent
experience with the mobility scooter says you might be right here.
When I connected its controller to it there was a noticeable loss of speed
from it and torque too.
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Everyone! This is Ivan Lee Workman. I am sorry
to confuse you about my name. I have two emails and I
forgot I had my middle name under this email.
Anyway, I would like to Thank all those who have given
me ideas on what type of Electric Vehicles people want
and some marketing ideas. Thanks again! If anyone else
has any other suggestions please email me, that would
be great. I am open to all ideas!
Sincerely,
Ivan Lee Workman
(A young man with an EV mission).
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Jim, I did go to the web site and started down loading and looked
like it would take hours on my slow computer. You told me what I needed to
know. I personally think that it is "remarkable " that a 65 lbs. box (golf
cart bat)can hold enough energy to push 5000 lbs at 35 mphs for 2 miles ,and
can be refilled over and over. .
Steve Clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Coate" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 9:07 AM
Subject: Re: LiIons order time
> "John G. Lussmyer" wrote:
> > At 12:02 AM 3/6/2003 -0800, 1sclunn wrote:
> > > I guess I missed on the 100 ah bat what load (in amps) can
> > > you put on them. for under 1 min and over 30 min? the 100ah
> > > is that over 20 hours ( would that be written c20 or 20c) .
> > > so at a c1 (one hour discharge) what would be the ah.
> >
> > Read the spec sheets at: http://www.thunder-sky.com/Cpjs(En).htm
>
> The spec sheets are a bit sparse on details. The max discharge current
> is given as 3C (300 amps) but no indication of how long that current can
> be maintained.
>
> As for the Ahr rating, the instruction manual page says "please cut off
> when measured to 2.85V" and "the best constant discharge current is 0.3
> multiple for rated capacity", so the 100Ahr rating is at 33.3amps until
> 2.85volts? Not too useful for EV applications.
>
> They have several graphs of performance up at
> http://www.thunder-sky.com/qxt(en).htm although I don't understand
> voltage vs Ahr plots; voltage verses time would make more sense to me.
> The graph at http://www.thunder-sky.com/qxt/Curve-4.htm shows discharge
> at different currents from 0.1C to 1.5C but no curves for 3C and seems
> to imply that capacity might be half at such high currents?
>
> Putting together a pack of 72 to 80 of the 200Ahr cells could make the
> ultimate pickup truck with 150-200 mile range and cargo capacity intact.
> Extremely tempting, but at $20K I need to wait for some pioneers to
> gather real data.
>
> _________
> Jim Coate
> 1992 Chevy S-10
> 1970s Elec-Trak E20
> http://www.eeevee.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> My tug weight close to a ton and its 156 amp hour battery pack weighs 480 kg
> with a top speed of 15 kph and a draw at cruise of 30 amps.
> It all fits nicely together, 30 into 150 goes 5 with a little left over for
> those 60 amp starts.
>
> Now bearing in mind that this unit is setup to pull around a trailer all day
> for its 30 amp draw and its overall weight im thinking I could double the
> speed with no ill effect here, it should still run in my van at 30 kph for 5
> hours and the range should double, because of the way its set up.
I think that you aren't taking aerodynamic drag into account. Aero drag
goes up as the square of your speed, twice as fast requires four times
as much power. At low speeds aero drag is small compared to rolling
resistance so it doesn't matter much, however aero drag starts to be
significant at about 20 kph.
You 'might' be able to go 30 kph using only 2.1kw (30 amps * 70V) I
wouldn't bet on it.
>
> So if I double the speed again to 60 kph I should get 2.5 hours running from
> it wind direction permitting :).
>
No, at this speed aerodynamic drag is VERY significant. It will
definitely take four times as much power to go 60 kph as it does to go
30 kph. Assuming you only needed 2.1kw at 30 mph, you would need 8.5kw
at 60 kph (sounds about right).
That works out to 128 amps at 66V (batteries will sag some at these
currents). Your 156 Ah batteries will last about 45 minutes at this
rate.
> Now looking at this in battery terms I have to use 8 33 kg 6 volt batteries
> to move my tug at 15 kph for 5 hours and 16 to move the forklift just cause
> I have increased voltage.
Range is pretty much directly related to weight in batteries. Double
the weight and you double the range. Whether you wire them up as two
sets in parallel for 48V or one string of 96V won't matter (as long as
you drive the same speed with both sets)
The advantage of going to 96V is that the motor will spin faster so you
can go faster. Of course doubling your speed cuts your range in half so
you have to take that into consideration.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK perhaps its California Dreaming
(and no I have not been toking, snorting, or drinking.
Despite the TV show, the 70's are gone).
While charging at a private location, a construction
crew had tapped into the plant's 3 phase 480 VAC. They
dropped a transformer on a pallet near their mobile
office. The breakout panel had huge 3 phase 270 VAC
60 amp twist lock in-line outlets dangling on this
portable rig. Of course I was drooling over them
(but not close enough to get shocked).
My PFC-50 is not spec'd to rn on 270 VAC. I have run
my Zivan K2's on 270 (they were quite happy). So, I
turned my attention to the stripped bright yellow warning
label that said 480 VAC.
Although access to 3 phase 480 is like 'nowhere' to be
found, I fantasized about what it would be like to charge
at level 3.
Imagine level 3 every 50 miles, where we would use a
relay protected DC cable connection directly to our packs.
A rom on board the EV would be read by the charging head
that would know our pack voltage and what type of
chemistry. It would not make sense to carry around a
level 3 charger everywhere you go, so these spots would
have one that charge various EVs.
In bumping around the web doing searches, I found
http://www.state.ma.us/doer/programs/ev/charger1.pdf
which mentions level 3 charging as 480 VAC 3 phase
400 amps. Thats a (480 * 400 * 80% =) 153.6 kw source
and a likely 107.52 kw charging ability (what gets to the
pack after rectification, assuming 70% pfc).
That's ten times the power I have put in. 80 minutes would
be cut to 8 minutes.
Well maybe not. As I increase the charging current, the
voltage across the pack increases quickly. So, to protect
the pack, the on-board charging computer tapers the current
quickly.
It will take not only the ability to find a source, the
high power electronics to convert 480 VAC to charge a pack,
but a new charging algorithm to over come the taper.
Fast conductive charging is not new, but I fear that now
the production EVs are gone, all that technology will soon
be too.
: sigh :
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Now that all has changed (inductives going away, no
production EV available, few conversion companies to make
EVs, the media already enamored with fcvs, etc.), EV
charging rules, guidelines, and installation information
on the web are quite dated.
The fore mentioned
http://www.state.ma.us/doer/programs/ev/charger1.pdf
much of the CA arb site, and all of the CA utility pages.
We, as the EV community, need to find these items, and
work to either get them updated, or taken down. Providing
wrong, out-of-date information is bad for our cause.
=====
' ____
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'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
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--- Begin Message ---
I have been using my 120 VAC Zivan K2 charger instead of
my PFC-50 charger. Thee is quite a difference. I can
not adjust what charge current I want with the Zivan. It
just goes full bore. I can dial up what current I want
with the PFC-50. The Zivan's pfc is worse than the PFC-50.
Chargers will low pfc are hard on plugs, outlets, cords,
and breakers.
With either charger, I get a full charge to my pack by
charging overnight. CA buys WA and OR hydroelectric power.
At night, my EV is being charged off clean hydroelectric
electrons.
In the morning, I spend my time,searching for the latest
job openings. There are usually driver positions, but these
go fast.
I drove an ICE in my previous job to arrive on site and meet
the frantic customer with their hair on fire (losing a
million dollars a minute with a down system) and resolve their
computer problems. I figured it would be like driving a bus,
it part of the job, and their was no way, I could drive out
to Monterey in the middle of the night after spending all
day in Tracy (the central valley). I wasn't given a choice
of vehicle (like getting a fuel efficient one, hp always
buys from Ford), nor was I given the option to drive my
own (company liability issues). So, I planned ahead, left
early, drove the speed limit to not be fuelish.
...
I packed it in and headed South on Hwy 101, in
response to a possible driver position near the San Jose
Airport. If I worked there, I could park and charge at
the Santa Clara Costco while I was tooting around in
their delivery ICE for min. wage.
After filling out their form and being told "we'll call you... ",
I thought I would try to hit another job opportunity
while down here.
My pack was doing good, but I was nearing the 'weak battery'
point (I have reduced range until the replacement batts
arrive). It was odd to see all the vacant hi-tech building
still being groomed as if, at any moment the economy is going
to boom again (yea right, get real).
Before I headed back North, I stopped off at a private charging
location I have permission to use. It has a wonderful evi mcs-600
[ http://geocities.com/evcharging/images/mcs-600.jpg ]
which has two 14-50 outlets (one on each side with its own door).
Every mcs-600 I find is always in great shape, and has had no
vandalism. That is something I can not say about ics-200's or
inductives. The only issue I have with the mcs-600 was it was
the 'high end' of the mcs line. It was expensive, had a useless
light on the top (which was not to bright and shown in the wrong
direction, and too hard to replace the every dying florescent).
I like mcs-100's for their low cost and same durability.
I cabled up power to my Zivan NG5 and my PFC-50. The NG5 beeped
letting me know it was on, and it pushes 31 amps into my pack at
140 VDC.
The mcs-600 is connected to the host's 208 VAC. But the long
wiring run from the building, and the other loads on the transformer
make the actual power at the charger 203 with 1 per sec surges to
208 VAC.
The mcs-600 is connected to 40 amp breakers, so I set my PFC-50
to draw 30 amps AC. I have no way to adjust the NG5 current
draw, but it usually draws about 32 amps at 208 VAC.
The 31 amps from NG5 and 37 amps from the PFC-50 puts 68 amps
into my pack. The -59 ahrs reading on my emeter quickly
decrement toward zero as I wait.
An hour has my pack voltage up to 153.3 which tapers my chargers
to 30 amps (still with both on). This is when I disconnect, the
20 ahrs still needed to break even is only 10 miles, and I
have more than enough to get home + some other chores.
The cruise North on 101 is in hits and fits, as it is the time
of day when drivers are in a mad dash to get home. But it was
early enough to not get caught up in any 'dead-stopped' traffic
jam.
I passed my normal turn off and took the next, which after a
couple of turns had me in front of my local DMV (CA dept. of
motor vehicles).
I had 'just' gotten in, when they locked all the front doors.
They still had huge lines for every window. I stood at the
information line to know where to go for a new driving record print
out
(you need one of these for a driver job. They need to know
if you have accidents). My record is spot-less (knock on
keyboard), but you have to have a current print-out with you
'if' you get a call to interview.
None of the DMV employees get to go home until everyone of the
public are processed. So now all those that had been sitting on
their laurels all day long, get up to open a window and start
processing people (government employees, you got to love them).
...
When I got home my pack was at 70 ahrs. This is the most I have
gotten from this pack with its four weak batteries. I plugged in
one of my 120 VAC Zivan K2's. It was pushing 10 amps when
normally would push 11. The AC voltage is low at my home.
I will be glad when I can replace the weaker batteries and
move forward with my plans (get a job, or move away).
:-zzz
=====
' ____
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'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> According to the specs, discharge is up to 3C = 300a from 100ahr cells. Max
> recharge is .3C =30a.
Ed, please be careful, I think the spec has been updated - latest I have seen
recommends 0.3C continuous discharge, maximum 1.5C, above that you
need "pulsed" discharge, I take that as meaning non continuous duty.
It might be an expensive difference.
Evan.
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi all
I asked Thunder-Sky about the current draw on their cells in January.
They basically said that the cells are capable of 3CA continuous current.
I asked John Grzan (Worley) a similar question about his cells (same cells - perhaps
the pick of the crop).
He said similarly that the cells are capable of 3CA continuous current, and can peak
at 10CA for short periods.
So, taking these claims with the obligatory grain of salt, I reckon that 40 x 100Ah
jobbies will do a good job of pushing my 600kg Clubman around, with an occasional
burst of power to keep things fun.
(No I can't be any more specific than that until I actually build the thing and find
out what the real performance is)
Your mileage will most definitely vary.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Evan Tuer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, 7 March 2003 10:44 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: LiIons order time
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> According to the specs, discharge is up to 3C = 300a from 100ahr cells. Max
> recharge is .3C =30a.
Ed, please be careful, I think the spec has been updated - latest I have seen
recommends 0.3C continuous discharge, maximum 1.5C, above that you
need "pulsed" discharge, I take that as meaning non continuous duty.
It might be an expensive difference.
Evan.
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--- Begin Message ---
Just as you wouldn't use 48V MOSFETs for a 48V controller, I wouldn't build
to 100% of the discharge. It would really hurt to burn out a $15,000
battery pack.
But you could always use a few Super Capacitors to boost the peak power
available. But that wouldn't help with the continuous discharge number.
At 06:04 AM 3/7/2003, you wrote:
Hi all
I asked Thunder-Sky about the current draw on their cells in January.
They basically said that the cells are capable of 3CA continuous current.
I asked John Grzan (Worley) a similar question about his cells (same cells
- perhaps the pick of the crop).
He said similarly that the cells are capable of 3CA continuous current,
and can peak at 10CA for short periods.
So, taking these claims with the obligatory grain of salt, I reckon that
40 x 100Ah jobbies will do a good job of pushing my 600kg Clubman around,
with an occasional burst of power to keep things fun.
(No I can't be any more specific than that until I actually build the
thing and find out what the real performance is)
Your mileage will most definitely vary.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Evan Tuer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, 7 March 2003 10:44 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: LiIons order time
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> According to the specs, discharge is up to 3C = 300a from 100ahr cells. Max
> recharge is .3C =30a.
Ed, please be careful, I think the spec has been updated - latest I have
seen
recommends 0.3C continuous discharge, maximum 1.5C, above that you
need "pulsed" discharge, I take that as meaning non continuous duty.
It might be an expensive difference.
Evan.
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--- Begin Message ---
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. Nice catch phrase. "Nail it again." John Plasmaboy Nail
it again Wayland. lol Lawrence Rhodes......How fitting if you ever had a
ride with John.......Nice to see you back.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Resume (the forklift on steroids), pt. 2 YES!
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> Hi All;
> Snip!
> > Plasma Boy..."I'm sorry 'bout that, I'll slow it down."
> >
> > Big boss guy..."Are you kidding? Nail it again!"
> . It was
> > probably 15 minutes of total mayhem...not exactly your standard job
> interview.
> >
> > In the aftermath, the parking lots was literally covered with tires
marks,
> and we had
> > attracted folks from neighboring businesses. It was weird, and yet,
> radically fun.
> >
> > Mike looked at me, and asked "What's your schedule like?
> >
> > Plasma Boy..."I'm open."
> >
> > Mike..."Let's go to lunch!"
> >
> > To sum it up, lunch was great, lots of questions were asked and
answered,
> I was offered a
> > job on the spot, and I accepted.
> > Back at the shop, I was given the tour, and all around me, were EVs!
> Everything has
> > batteries, controllers, and electric motors! They may not be road going
> EVs, but they are
> > nonetheless, EVs! How's a 1300 ahr battery pack sound?
> >
> > So there you have it, I'm now a forklift field service technician. I'm
on
> a very steep
> > learning curve, and am presently teamed up with a hilarious guy, my
> immediate foreman,
> > who's making the new job a fun and yet demanding new adventure for me so
> far.
> >
> > See Ya....John Wayland
> >
> Great! John! What a heart, and tire warming story! Not only are you
> employed again but with a buncha fun EV, of sort, types. I can see the
> forklifts, sons of Heavy Metal Garden Tractor, at the upcoming shows!
Flame
> paint jobs, kick ass stereos!
>
> Anybody else used their EV as a resume/<g>!
>
> Seeya
>
> Bob
>
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Tech paper "Do It Right the First Time"
This paper details the 4 major steps from deciding to build an EV to
installation and testing. I presented the paper with Seth Murray, a high
school student, at NESEA's Energy in Schools Conference on November 14-15,
2002. Seth converted an S10 and entered the ATdS winning a number of awards.
The email paper has links to Seth's pictures showing S10 construction, the
ATdS race, and how he survived a major accident.
A free copy of "Do It Right the First Time" is available from
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Vehicles of America, Inc. (EVA) is the leader in EV Safety with the
use of Anderson SBX connectors, the First Inertia switch, dual contactors,
and more. A paper describing safety is available also free. Its title is
"Safety First".
Just email your request to -------- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please do not send your request to the EV Digest.
We send our catalog with all technical paper requests.
"Anyone can build an EV - but building great EVs
requires experience and engineering."
Bob Batson
Registered P.E.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Free Offers at Home Page
www.EV-America.com
Electric Vehicles of America, Inc. (EVA)
Tel# 603-569-2100
Fax# 603-569-2900
11 Eagle Trace
P.O Box 2037
Wolfeboro, NH 03894
***********************************
Authorized Distributor for Advanced DC Motors,
Curtis and ALLTRAX Controllers,
Albright Contactors, and other EV component manufacturers.
Free catalog. Largest EV Component supplier in the East
Electric cars, trucks, motorcycles, boats, ski-dos, and more.
*******************************************
--- End Message ---
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----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, March 07, 2003 5:34 AM
Subject: Gimme Level 3
> OK perhaps its California Dreaming
> (and no I have not been toking, snorting, or drinking.
> Despite the TV show, the 70's are gone).
>
> While charging at a private location, a construction
> crew had tapped into the plant's 3 phase 480 VAC. They
> dropped a transformer on a pallet near their mobile
> office. The breakout panel had huge 3 phase 270 VAC
> 60 amp twist lock in-line outlets dangling on this
> portable rig. Of course I was drooling over them
> (but not close enough to get shocked).
>
> My PFC-50 is not spec'd to rn on 270 VAC. I have run
> my Zivan K2's on 270 (they were quite happy). So, I
> turned my attention to the stripped bright yellow warning
> label that said 480 VAC.
>
> Although access to 3 phase 480 is like 'nowhere' to be
> found, I fantasized about what it would be like to charge
> at level 3.
>
Hi Bruce an' All;
Great story. I have been pointed to the Ground power in the RR yards,
that is 480, 3 faze, for layover power for stored trains. I have never seen
it used in anger, but it is THERE. Wouldn't be hard to get the big cable
from the train, or 3 prong Anderson Male socket to plug it in. But THEN
watt? Sure need a humongus charger! I guess Rich Rudman could cobble you up
a PFC 500 or better?? Trains regularry pull 4-500 amps through these plugs,
and 2 ought cables!! Dream material, yeah. On the train, there is a
transformer to knock it down to 240/120 for those nice outlets yu see on the
train. If most of ya EVer SEE the inside of a train.A nation of RR riders,
we 'aint! But it sure is a nice thought for FAST charging!! I'm damn happy
with access to a 120 volt, for now.
Plugging along
Bob
> Imagine level 3 every 50 miles, where we would use a
> relay protected DC cable connection directly to our packs.
> A rom on board the EV would be read by the charging head
> that would know our pack voltage and what type of
> chemistry.
Yeah, all the plug in hardware is a production stuff. Amtrak and most
other Passenger Outfits have standardized it! What a Cool Concept! With
pilot pin protection. It Hasta be plugged in TIGHT before yu can power up
the 480. Regular people, not trained in electric safety can and do use it.
All ya need is the above. No new standards to create!!
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My apologies to the rest of the List...but I need to get the word out to
the North Bay Electric Auto Association-and I don't have access to the
individual e-mails-
North Bay members-please send this message out-
I am supposed to be the host/speaker for the meeting tomorrow, March 9th
at Sonoma State University. Because of a complication from my recent
knee surgery, I cannot be on campus until I am cleared by the doctor to
return to work. I expected him to clear me yesterday, but he kept me on
leave until the end of March, so I am unable to follow through on my
commitment to my EV friends this time.
I might be able to get away with it if I hadn't gotten busted by HR on
Monday for attending a staff meeting and being told in very clear terms
to "Stay away!"
I apologize for any inconvenience and especially for the late notice and
hope to re-schedule the EV-ent in the future.
If you wish to reply on this, please reply to me off-list.
Michael Bearden
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
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Folks,
Many thanks to Chip Gribben for helping clean up (and improve) my
original bumper sticker design. The latest version is again posted at:
http://www.geocities.com/ironstephanie
There may be one final revision to adjust the size and/or aspect ratio
depending upon what the printer says.
We took off the "100%" text after some discussion about our electrical
energy mix. I like this new design better.
I have a meeting with the printer today. The final revision will go in
by Monday. I should know by the end of today what kind of time frame
and costs we are looking at (note that I will be selling these at cost).
I've already gotten a few order requests. Feel free to submit more
(off-list).
Dean Grannes
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--- Begin Message ---
You might want to check out this site
http://www.published.com/mvp/index.html
They will do ANY custom bumper sticker for you.
Wallace
How may I assist you?
>
>
> Folks,
>
> Many thanks to Chip Gribben for helping clean up (and improve) my
> original bumper sticker design. The latest version is again posted at:
>
> http://www.geocities.com/ironstephanie
>
> There may be one final revision to adjust the size and/or aspect ratio
> depending upon what the printer says.
>
> We took off the "100%" text after some discussion about our electrical
> energy mix. I like this new design better.
>
> I have a meeting with the printer today. The final revision will go in
> by Monday. I should know by the end of today what kind of time frame
> and costs we are looking at (note that I will be selling these at cost).
> I've already gotten a few order requests. Feel free to
> submit more
> (off-list).
>
> Dean Grannes
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On 6 Mar 2003 at 14:56, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Still pretty lame considering the Japanese have a 4 year headstart over
> Detroit, and a much better product.
Somewhere, somehow, I got the idea that Ford is either licensing the design
or buying components and/or complete "hybrid" systems from Toyota for the
Escape. Note that, like the Prius, they claim higher fuel efficiency in
city driving than on the highway.
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
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