EV Digest 2661
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Heibao, AC motors, wind your own, etc.
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Battery pack replacement- TEVan
by "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: NEVs "almost" legal in WA state, Thank GM!
by Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Resources
by Mike Burgess <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Battery pack replacement- TEVan
by "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Heibao, AC motors, wind your own, etc.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: xxx MGMT Course - "Electric Vehicles:...EVs are Disruptive Technology"
by "Doug Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: xxx MGMT Course - "Electric Vehicles:...EVs are Disruptive
Technology"
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: getting OT, Segway
by Andrew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: CalCars - A non-profit way to get EV's rolling
by John RA Benson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: NEVs "almost" legal in WA state
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Resources
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: CalCars - A non-profit way to get EV's rolling
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Motor, surprise!
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Motors was Heibao
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Suzuki update
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Why wind your own when the shop down the street will do it for a few
(hundred) bucks? You just tell them to remove the old windings, put in
new, fill it to the brim with copper and get good insulation. That's
what these shops do for a living. The rotor remains unchanged. The
stator gets new copper and varnish.
For fun, go here:
http://www.brusa.li/products/e_motor_gt20_t181.htm
squint and repeat after me: "swimming pool pump motor, swimming pump
pool motor, swimming pump pool motor" ;)
Seth
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>
> Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen wrote:
> >
> > Winding your own motor might not be _easy_ - but I don't think it's
> > 'preconditioned for a failure'.
>
> A failure I mean failure to make the same (or even close) motor
> than OEM EV motor.
>
> You need to design and cast the shell (even your aluminum
> motor weighs 200 lb!)
> You need to alloy right metals to make temp and magnetic
> properties right - so the gaps stay as designed, etc.
>
> The guys you mentioned sure can do it provided they told
> what to do and how to do it and sufficient funding available.
>
> I'm getting tired of this thread.
>
> Victor
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's on nice thing about NiCd's (SAFT STM180).
The van sat for about 5 years with no charge and
700 miles until Mike Chancey bought it.
He put 3300 miles on it before I bought it, and I have
put another 3,000 on it. No signs of limited range!
Rod
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Christopher Zach
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 1:22 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Battery pack replacement and telemetry question
Ok, count me in for 50 :-) Seriously, that's a thought, but I might build
some sort of multiplexor on the input as I don't need to see all 50
batteries at once. Polling them might be a better idea.
As to saving the batteries... Sigh... I really would like to just do a swap
again, but the problem is the Prizm's pack is a pain to remove, and I've
tried that once. Weeded out about 10 batteries that were weak (10 volts to
dead open) it ran for a month then the same half of the pack failed again.
My guess is simply that 1/2 of the pack (it's 2 strings of 25) is weaker
than the other and under stress the weakest battery just goes. Looking at
the telemetry I got when I tested the batteries shows that there are good
ones in there, but there are just a lot of somewhat tired ones. Weakest link
breaks the chain.
The pack is 10 years old. Although it only has 3k miles on it, it sat for 5+
years without a charge, was treated pretty badly, and still ran for a year
with 25 miles of range. That's not bad.
A new pack is going to cost me $2,000+$450 shipping. Which actually isn't
bad, and it will finally allow me a chance to get some real range out of
this car (40 miles in theory without problem). That plus the MagneCharger
plus one at my parent's house could get me a 100 mile trip range including
runs to IKEA and Baltimore city.
And the 20 amps at 350 volt charge rate should keep the battery pack happy.
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 2:34 PM
Subject: Re: Battery pack replacement and telemetry question
> >> I would like to build a monitoring circuit so I can watch the
> >> new batteries in action. Question: Does anyone make a small,
> >> simple circult to read a battery's voltage and output it in
> >> digital form?
>
> Christopher Meier wrote:
> > Yes; order up a couple of the relay boards and the control board
> > from Lee's battery balancer and use it to monitor your pack.
>
> Yes, indeed! I am collecting orders to see if we can afford to make
> another run. Since you only want to monitor and not charge each battery,
> you don't need the relay boards with their 30-amp relays. Use some much
> smaller long-life signal relay, like a reed relay.
>
> Also, make sure you do a little R&R on your batteries, once you can get
> at them and test them individuall. It is amazing how well then can
> sometimes return from the dead.
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
With all the GM bashing going on now days I thought a little positive
energy would be appropriate. We have GM to thank for our new NEV laws
which are about to pass. It was so very nice of them not to pay a
lobbyist to fight against them as they did last year here. A similar
bill passed the Senate last year by a unanimous vote but was later
crushed by their lobbyist. GM likes that word crush. Anyway, thanks
to GM it looks like we will be able to drive economic, non foreign
oil dependent electric vehicles in Washington. Thank you so much GM.
Roderick
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm wondering if for an newbie to the list, if there is a
collection of links to the different controler mfgs,
motors, chargers and all the stuff mentioned.
I was hoping to find this on the yahoo archive, in the
links or database area, but no luck. The Intro & Welcome
letters still lists dead sites for the list archives.
Anyway, I'm in Los Angeles, will have a 8 mile each way commute, on
a fast surface street (Sepulveda Blvd thru LAX). Just as I'm
getting my large employer brought around to the EV chargers,
the EV's have dropped off the market. For personal and insurance
reasons, I need a commercialy produced car, that can safely carry
it's battery weight, and won't be a target for SUV's and taxis
to drive over.
I'd had my eye on the Ford Think, but that's a no go now.
Any other mfgs with plans for a straight EV (not a hybrid) ?
Mike
=====
"Welcome to the Darwinian Gene Pool Preserve.
Go ahead and lean over the safety rail as far
as you like and hand feed the carnivores."
Non-Sequitor by Wiley
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was *very* close to going with trying SAFT NiMH type batteries. If I could
find a sealed lead-acid that would fit down there I'd give it a go in a
second.
Next pack is going to be NiMH. Half the size, half the weight, twice the
power.
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 9:03 PM
Subject: RE: Battery pack replacement- TEVan
> That's on nice thing about NiCd's (SAFT STM180).
> The van sat for about 5 years with no charge and
> 700 miles until Mike Chancey bought it.
> He put 3300 miles on it before I bought it, and I have
> put another 3,000 on it. No signs of limited range!
> Rod
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Christopher Zach
> Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 1:22 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Battery pack replacement and telemetry question
>
>
> Ok, count me in for 50 :-) Seriously, that's a thought, but I might build
> some sort of multiplexor on the input as I don't need to see all 50
> batteries at once. Polling them might be a better idea.
>
> As to saving the batteries... Sigh... I really would like to just do a
swap
> again, but the problem is the Prizm's pack is a pain to remove, and I've
> tried that once. Weeded out about 10 batteries that were weak (10 volts to
> dead open) it ran for a month then the same half of the pack failed again.
> My guess is simply that 1/2 of the pack (it's 2 strings of 25) is weaker
> than the other and under stress the weakest battery just goes. Looking at
> the telemetry I got when I tested the batteries shows that there are good
> ones in there, but there are just a lot of somewhat tired ones. Weakest
link
> breaks the chain.
>
> The pack is 10 years old. Although it only has 3k miles on it, it sat for
5+
> years without a charge, was treated pretty badly, and still ran for a year
> with 25 miles of range. That's not bad.
>
> A new pack is going to cost me $2,000+$450 shipping. Which actually isn't
> bad, and it will finally allow me a chance to get some real range out of
> this car (40 miles in theory without problem). That plus the MagneCharger
> plus one at my parent's house could get me a 100 mile trip range including
> runs to IKEA and Baltimore city.
>
> And the 20 amps at 350 volt charge rate should keep the battery pack
happy.
>
> Chris
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 2:34 PM
> Subject: Re: Battery pack replacement and telemetry question
>
>
> > >> I would like to build a monitoring circuit so I can watch the
> > >> new batteries in action. Question: Does anyone make a small,
> > >> simple circult to read a battery's voltage and output it in
> > >> digital form?
> >
> > Christopher Meier wrote:
> > > Yes; order up a couple of the relay boards and the control board
> > > from Lee's battery balancer and use it to monitor your pack.
> >
> > Yes, indeed! I am collecting orders to see if we can afford to make
> > another run. Since you only want to monitor and not charge each battery,
> > you don't need the relay boards with their 30-amp relays. Use some much
> > smaller long-life signal relay, like a reed relay.
> >
> > Also, make sure you do a little R&R on your batteries, once you can get
> > at them and test them individuall. It is amazing how well then can
> > sometimes return from the dead.
> > --
> > Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> > 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> > Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> > leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
> >
> >
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seth wrote:
> Why wind your own when the shop down the street will do it for a few
> (hundred) bucks? You just tell them to remove the old windings, put in
> new, fill it to the brim with copper and get good insulation. That's
> what these shops do for a living. The rotor remains unchanged. The
> stator gets new copper and varnish.
That is true if all you are doing is changing the basic voltage (more
turns of thicker wire, for example), or upgrading the insulation to a
higher temperature class (say, from class B to class H).
However, there is a bit more to it if you are also trying to improve its
performance and/or efficiency.
You may have to replace the bearings with precision units rated for
higher rpm.
You may need to add extra insulation, so voltage spikes from the
inverter waveform don't cause shorts.
The rotor will probably be a 'standard' slip model, and use cast
aluminum windings. This is not good for high torque or high efficiency.
A high performance EV-rated induction motor will have copper windings,
and they will have a larger cross section to increase torque and
efficiency. So, you might have to rebuild or replace the rotor.
The rotor will also have to be carefully balanced if you are going to
run it at higher rpm and frequency.
As a practical matter, I don't think you will do all these things. You
might rewind it for a different voltage, but would otherwise accept the
motor's basic design limitations as-is.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Umm.... can someone please help me figure a few things out about these
links? I thought that the good folks at MIT were supposed to be intelligent
and well-informed, but from reading the first of the "handout .pdf" files,
it seems more likely that the class is being conducted by an oil company
CEO. Is anyone on the list spending $3K per year on batteries (I just spent
that much, but they damn well better last longer than one year!) ??? How
about that $.35 per mile figure vs. $.05 for gasoline? And is anyone really
even wanting to use more than 125 miles per charge (granted, more range is
better, but my primary motivation for wanting a high-capacity pack is to
increase the usable life of the pack...)? Of course, there are several
valuable lessons that can be learned from sifting through the disinformation
(like the need for an organized set of standards to be used in development
of new EV's - especially in developing a fairly standard, yet flexible,
charging infrastructure), but on a whole, the literature I saw is just a
litany of the same old (largely-incorrect) perceptions that have always been
disseminated through the media. These images of EV's as an "experimental
technology" that is "not ready for prime time" can be difficult to dispel
from the collective conscious. I would've hoped that MIT could've produced
better. Granted, it is only MIT's Business School, but still...
-Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Jackson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 5:21 PM
Subject: xxx MGMT Course - "Electric Vehicles:...EVs are Disruptive
Technology"
> Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> "Ran across this MIT Management course a month ago on the web..."
>
> This is vt; Virginia Tech
>
> "...would bring it to your attention. It's not at all positive about EVs
calling
> them a "Disruptive Technology." The class seems to still be in session.
It's
> dated February 17, 2003."
>
> I read the first example which is the .pdf you mention. While it may
> be made up (perhaps by Prof. Christensen), it does read like an
> internal study document. But, the course is not pro or con, it is a
> lesson in advancing a type of technology. I'm not interested in the
> particular lessons, but if someone wants to succeed in an EV business,
> this course could be valuable. And, the .pdf represents the thinking
> of a manager in an influential department. The material appears to be
> circa mid 2000
>
> "http://mit.iddl.vt.edu/courses/mgt5804/coursecontent/lecture6.html";
>
> Masters of Information Technology
> Institute for Distance & Distributed Learning
> Virginia Tech
> educational URL
> mit.iddl.vt.edu
>
> "How it hits personally is that they are using our EVA/DC website as
resource
> material for the students to get information on EVs."
>
> I think that is a complement to the site and its material
>
> "They seem to be using the EV as a model for why technologies fail."
>
> It's an example of why any of several new (disruptive) technologies
> fail and you benifit in business understanding the causees of failure.
>
> "The PDF files they provide the class cannot be printed nor can the text
from
> them be copied because MIT encrypted the PDF files which is pretty odd for
a
> college course unless they were trying to prevent the students from
> plagerism."
>
> That is one of the reasons for using .pdf files.
>
> "If you can get past the negativeness, it is interesting reading and you
get
> a perspective from the industry's side."
>
> Below the line is the text (not including any images) from the
> Example #1 .pdf ...It took a long time to type in... :o)
> ______________________________________________________________________
> from:
>
http://mit.iddl.vt.edu/courses/mgt5804/coursecontent/handouts/EV-example1.PD
F
>
> E-Vehicles: An Action Plan for General Motors
>
> Executive Summary:
>
> The electric vehicle is infeasible after considering all its
> disadvantages of speed, constantly recharging battery, and costs in
> comparison to regular internal combustion engine vehicles. The
> government mandate is political and impractical when compared with the
> consumer wants and needs. Consumers must be given the freedom to make
> their own choices.
>
> It is necessary to continue research and educate the consumer about
> the electric vehicle through various mass media. Some alternatives to
> the electric vehicle are Hybrids (near-term) and Fuel Cells (long-
> term). Lithium-ion rechargeable batteries are environment friendly and
> may replace conventional rechargeable battery technologies such as
> nickel-cadmium and lead-acid. Emission control methods should also be
> adopted. Honda's successful introduction of the gasoline-electric
> vehicle `Insight' is a huge step towards hybrid technologies. A
> continuous joint effort by all the big manufacturers and government
> organizations will help us move more quickly towards this goal of a
> zero-emission, low cost, high range vehicle.
>
> The electric vehicle is not feasible.
>
> In order to achieve success in meeting the California Air Resources
> Board (CARB) mandate, GM must produce a car that consumers will buy.
> In order to get a consumer to buy it, the vehicle must demonstrate the
> same functionality as an internal combustion engine vehicle, at
> approximately the same price. Holding the functionality of the car
> constant, there are several areas where the electric vehicle simply
> cannot compete.
>
> Range
>
> Arguing that the current internal combustion engine cars provide more
> range than necessary, the electric vehicle still does not meet the
> minimum 125-mile range. Considering this is a 69 percent decrease from
> the expected internal combustion range of 400 miles, the inability to
> meet even a low threshold indicates that consumers will not use the
> vehicle.
>
> Recharging
>
> Recharging the electric vehicle takes approximately six hours, as
> opposed to about fifteen minutes to refuel a conventional car.
> Furthermore, recharging at home is not very easy, given that the
> charger requires 240-Volt electricity and residential power is
> typically 120 Volts. The needed modification costs about $800,
> therefore decreasing the availability of a charger. An electric car
> simply cannot be charged just anywhere.
>
> Cost
>
> An average conventional car has an operating cost of approximately 5.2
> cents a mile. The best that an electric vehicle can achieve at this
> time is 35.4 cents a mile. Operating costs of seven times the internal
> combustion car would provide serious problems. Additionally, battery
> replacement costs $3280 a year. An outlay of this amount of money in a
> car on an annual basis would meet the criteria set out in most states
> lemon laws. GM would be deliberately forcing a vehicle upon consumers
> that would run a foul of many states consumer protection laws. These
> costs may come down in the future; however, the mandate is based on
> where technology wants to be in several years, not where it currently
> is. GM cannot presume innovation. (See Table 1 below)
>
> Is the Mandate appropriate?
>
> By 2003 all new personal vehicles sold in CA, NY, MA should be ZEV.
> With the present available technology, only electric vehicles come
> close to ZEV. Even though the mandate is appropriate to reduce the
> pollution level in these states, the fact of the matter is that
> electric vehicles are not yet ready technologically for mass
> production. Their reliability is still not proven and actual road use
> is still experimental. Keeping these issues in mind, a government
> mandate to sell these vehicles does not seem appropriate.
>
> Mandates cannot be applied to experimental technologies. A mandate can
> be levied only after extensive analysis is undertaken and proven to be
> successful. Such a mandate is partisan and is being levied only to
> appease certain elements of the system. It is becoming clearer that
> the ZEV mandate doesn't make sense. One cannot mandate a technological
> breakthrough. Consumers have to choose electric cars for themselves
> and be willing to sacrifice the additional dollars, speed, and time
> spent charging batteries. The mandate specifies the quota of
> E-Vehicles to be sold as a percentage of gasoline vehicles sold. As a
> result, if E-Vehicles cost more to produce than they can be sold for,
> then selling additional gasoline vehicles involves the implicit cost
> of extra EV losses. This extra cost may lead to substantial increases
> in gasoline vehicle prices -- as much as $550 per vehicle. (See Fig. 1
> Below)
>
> FIGURE 1
>
> Educating the Masses about the electric vehicle
>
> . Work in partnership with industry and build on their ongoing
> efforts, develop and initiate a coordinated campaign to increase
> public awareness and knowledge of electric vehicles.
>
> . Familiarity with the unique properties, features, attributes, and
> safety aspects associated with electric vehicles will inevitably
> increase consumer acceptance.
>
> . Educational efforts should also inform the public on the location of
> recharging sites.
>
> . Specific activities include co-funding preparation of publications,
> television advertising, a toll free information phone number, and
> educational videos.
>
> Alternate methods for a ZEV
>
> Automobile manufacturers are seeing more success with other
> alternative car fuels such as propane, ethanol and methanol, which
> constitute a less radical change, and are therefore cheaper and more
> acceptable to consumers. Even natural gas, the oldest alternative fuel
> for cars, has been getting a boost from engines designed to run on
> either gasoline or natural gas.
>
> Future efforts should concentrate on Hybrids (near-term), and Fuel
> Cells (long- term) as solutions to the problem. A standard lead-acid
> battery electric car will not be ready for prime time; instead GM
> should promote an ultra-lightweight hybrid alternative that uses
> electric motors located in the wheels in conjunction with a small
> onboard engine, possibly a gas turbine or a conventional
> internal-combustion motor, to extend the range.
>
> Political Lobbying
>
> The projected cost of implementing an E-Vehicle policy in CA is
> enormous, requiring vehicle subsidies as high as $10,000 and $20,000
> per vehicle. Laws can be enacted in Congress to allow tax deductions
> for the amount spent on buying or maintaining an EV. Local, state, and
> federal governments should offer incentives to buy the electric
> vehicle.
>
> Battery
>
> GM and the other big car manufacturers are investing millions of
> dollars in research to develop high performance, reliable, and safe
> batteries. The USABC is primarily involved in this effort with other
> contributors including USCAR (United States Council for Automotive
> Research) and Sandia - a company working with USABC to enhance the
> lithium-ion batteries.
>
> Sandia and their Lithium-ion batteries -- an alternative
>
> Lithium-ion rechargeable batteries are high tech, environmentally
> friendly electrical energy storage devices that offer more energy in
> smaller, lighter packages to replace conventional rechargeable battery
> technologies such as nickel-cadmium and lead-acid. Sandia is
> developing low cost intercalation electrode materials, synthetic
> carbon, and manganese dioxide, specially developed for use in high
> power battery applications, such as electric or hybrid vehicles.
>
> Intercalation materials act as a framework for lithium ions thereby
> eliminating the need to use lithium metal in batteries. In lithium-ion
> batteries, electrical energy absorbed as lithium ions is transferred
> from the manganese dioxide host material to the carbon during charge.
> During discharge, the stored energy is released as the lithium ions
> are transferred from the carbon to the manganese oxide. Some of the
> key benefits from this research include consumer and environmental
> safety, manufacturing simplicity, low cost and long battery cycle
> life. Lithium-ion batteries will enable electric vehicles to go four
> times farther than electric vehicles using lead- acid batteries.
> Lithium-ion batteries will also last longer than lead-acid batteries
> before having to be replaced. There are also weight savings associated
> with the lithium-ion batteries.
>
> USCAR / SAFT and their Nickel metal hydride batteries -- another
> alternative
>
> As of September 1999, SAFT developed a Nickel Metal hydride battery,
> which to date has been one of the best in terms of safety and
> performance. While they have made good progress, cost and size still
> remains an issue. USABC has entered into a contract with SAFT to
> continue research on the lithium-ion technology, as it seems to be the
> most viable option going forward.
>
> USABC is one of 12 consortia under USCAR, which coordinates
> cooperative, pre-competitive research projects of DaimlerChrysler,
> Ford, and GM.
>
> What should GM do in the interim?
>
> In the interim, GM should consider options to reduce emission by
> adopting some of the options listed below:
>
> 1. Lightweight materials.
>
> 2. Energy conversion using concepts like regenerative braking.
>
> 3. Develop devices that can store energy that is consumed by the
> combustion process.
>
> 4. Move the design of the engine to a point where "hybrid" power
> sources are feasible.
>
> 5. In addition to investing in the efforts of the USABC, GM should
> also work with metal research groups to develop new lightweight,
> high-strength materials to reduce vehicle weight.
>
> Combining efforts
>
> Introduction of the hybrid vehicle into the American automobile
> industry proves that near zero emissions vehicles are not only
> possible but may also prove to be profitable illustrated by Honda's
> gasoline electric hybrid vehicle `Insight'. Honda's `Insight' is
> currently the only gasoline-electric car sold in America. It can
> travel 600 - 700 miles on a single tank of gas, averaging 61 city
> miles per gallon and 70 highway miles per gallon. Compare these
> numbers with current purely electrical vehicles, which average maximum
> distance ranges of 125 - 150 miles before the car's battery must be
> recharged. Recently Honda increased production in America by 50% to
> meet demand producing 6,500 Insights thus far in the year 2000.
>
> Honda has received multiple awards including Sierra Club's Excellence
> in Environmental Engineering, increasing customer awareness and
> support of the hybrid vehicle. GM could also achieve similar rewards
> by following closely the hybrid path. Currently, GM and Ford, along
> with Honda, contribute to a partnership with University of California
> at Riverside's College of Engineering / Center for Environmental
> Research and Technology (UCR/CE-CERT) and the Environmental Protection
> Agency. The goals of this partnership include developing technology
> and techniques for accurately measuring emissions at near zero levels,
> understanding how extremely low emission vehicles perform under ``real
> world'' conditions, and accessing the air quality benefits and
> environmental impacts of these vehicles. 1 Utilizing results of this
> partnership and automobile knowledge inherent within the General
> Motors organization, GM can produce a quality, well selling, hybrid
> vehicle combining greater distance ranges than current electric
> vehicles, near zero emissions meeting the requirement of the
> California Air Resources Board (CARB) and lower costs to the consumer
> based on lack of need for expensive recharging equipment.
>
> note 1: taken from Honda's website, www.Honda.com
> ______________________________________________________________________
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Try reading the second handout PDF file - much more optimistic. These
appear to be different (made up) case studies. So my take is that the
prof was just trying to demonstrate the range that might be encountered
in real life.
And as Martin notes, it is Virginia Tech, not MIT.
Doug Martin wrote:
> Umm.... can someone please help me figure a few things out about these
> links? I thought that the good folks at MIT were supposed to be intelligent
> and well-informed, but from reading the first of the "handout .pdf" files,
> it seems more likely that the class is being conducted by an oil company
> CEO.
...
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Martin Jackson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> > "http://mit.iddl.vt.edu/courses/mgt5804/coursecontent/lecture6.html";
> >
> > Masters of Information Technology
> > Institute for Distance & Distributed Learning
> > Virginia Tech
> > educational URL
> > mit.iddl.vt.edu
> >
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S-10
1970s Elec-Trak E20
http://www.eeevee.com
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--- Begin Message ---
Subject: Segway
From: Joseph Vaughn-Perling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 19:40:52 -0800 (PST)
Think about it in 15 years time when folks are saying this same thing
about the Segway supra model and the old segways are in garage sales for a
hundred bucks. If these make the volume, they really can change the
world.
Where I live the nearest health club is more than just a few miles
away. If I want to exercise indoors with gear, I can either drive or not
go. A segway would be preferable to a car for this.
Joseph
I guess I'm still not seeing what I could do on a Segway that I couldn't
do on my old 10 speed.
The main advantage the Segway has is manuverability, if you want to ride
any distance it makes more sense to me to have something that can go
faster out in the street even if it can't make a U-turn in it's own length
If I were a mail carrier or worked in a huge factory and had to carry 50
pounds of tools it might be more useful.
For the kind of zipping around town that I do I think a Segway would be
slower, cost more and exercise my legs less than my 30 year old Motobecane.
For that matter an E-bike would be better than the Segway and still cost
a bunch less.
Perhaps when I find a Segway at a garage sale I might try it out
although a complex device bought cheap might require a lot of
troubleshooting and/or expensive parts.
--
Andrew King
Ann Arbor Michigan
technology is the answer, what was the question?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Maybe Bruce could answer that claim. He also posted the website, not as a
warning, but as simply "plug-in hybrid efforts"
(http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/EVList/message/37201).
I am not affiliated with CalCars, other than I have met and talked with
Felix. I like him and appreciate his efforts, which is why I agree to post
for him. Well, I guess that does make me affiliated as a non-profit
volunteer.
Felix is more diplomatic in his response than what I would like to say.
JRAB
>From Felix:
Lin Tse Hsu: I'm delighted you're a supporter of the idea of bringing
plug-in vehicles to market. Perhaps together we can work on the best ways
to make that happen!
You ask many entirely appropriate questions, which we feel very comfortable
addressing. Here's a brief answer to your questions, some of which will
become part of our FAQ.
We are currently an "initiative", sponsored by a 501(c)3 that has been in
existence for almost a decade, and has agreed to accept donations to get
this effort going.
I'm the founder of CalCars. I've spent the past two years promoting the
idea that we can use the unique resources and energy we have in California
to jump-start the adoption of advanced technology vehicles
through grass-roots effort. I've recruited several dozen people to help
develop and evolve the strategy. I've paid for the preparations for this
out of my own pocket. I'm not a wealthy person, but I felt this was the
best way I could use my time, and the longer I've been working on it, the
more convinced I am that this is the most important cause I could devote
myself to. If you want to know more about me, including my decade of work
in nonprofit energy conservation and other efforts beginning in the
mid-1970s (and my entirely honorable efforts in the dot-com era), there is
in fact a link from
http://www.calcars.org/about.html
to my bio on my website
http://www.nlightning.com/resume.html
If you are still concerned that this is a "fly-by-night" effort, I hope the
endorsers listed at
http://www.calcars.org/kudos.html
will provide some reassurance.
We also have the counsel of one of the more established San Francisco Bay
Area law firms, Gray Cary Ware
http://www.gcw.com
We hope to raise funds initially from up approximately 1000 Charter
Sponsors, at $95, sufficient to bring on 3 or 4 consultants to move this
initiative forward, including people with substantial industry expertise
and credibility. We intend to advance this effort to the point where we can
make a credible proposal (buttressed by the number of Sponsors who are
demonstrably serious buyers) to one of the car companies that might
retrofit their existing vehicles, most likely Toyota, Hyundai, Honda or
Ford, see
http://www.calcars.org/vehicles.html
Our plans for raising revenue begin with Charter Sponsors, and perhaps a
dozen individuals who will commit substantial funds to purchase and help us
test and develop a series of working road-ready prototypes. At the point at
which we have reached these goals, we hope to be able to raise funds from
partnerships from corporations that stand to gain from this effort, as well
as grants from foundations, government and other public sources.
Ultimately, our plans for a CalCars Buyers Club will involve our making an
arrangement with a manufacturer so that the future owners of plug-in hybrid
retrofits will pay the auto maker directly, starting with a down payment
followed by the balance upon delivery of the vehicle.
Following that, as we indicate on the website, we hope to be able to use
the same Buyers Club model to promote fully optimized vehicles heading
toward "hypercars".
We'd be very happy to enter into a dialogue with all current EV drivers and
others who are looking for a "way out" of the current highly unpromising
future for advanced technology vehicles.
Thanks, Felix Kramer
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
Felix Kramer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Founder California Cars Initiative
http://www.calcars.org
PO Box 61222 Palo Alto, CA 94306
cell 650.520.5555 voice 650.599.9992
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
On 3/19/03 10:18 AM, "Lin Tse Hsu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>
> This is another of those sites that Bruce is referring
> to. The aim
> of the project is unclear. Apparently, it is an IRS
> 501c3 type of
> arrangement, for which contributions are tax
> deductible. On the
> other hand, what does the $95 go for? If it is a
> deposit, that
> violates IRS rules for renumeration received. Yet,
> the site says
> that "contributions" are
> tax-deductible!!!?!??!!?!?!??!!!!?!?!
>
> This is either a scam or tax-fraud or carelessness.
>
> The cause of grid pluggable hybrids is a worthy one.
> I think its
> a great idea. But, the funding arrangements for this
> company are
> reminiscent of the flimsy business models of the
> recent dot-com
> boom. Is it too far in the past for anyone to
> remember? Surely
> Bruce remembers. It was really painful, not just the
> personal
> crises when job and sustenance disappeared, but the
> horrible
> breach of trust created by money grubbers who would do
> anything
> to seize a little funding.
>
> The funding arrangement of the company is bordering on
> fraudulent,
> but the government is stretched thin with other
> matters, so the
> public and the venture funding community is left to
> fend for
> itself in deciding whether to contribute money. And,
> the
> founder is a dot-com era veteran. Does he list any of
> his
> history. No matter for the venture capital community.
> The
> painful memories of non-performing assets will forever
> etch on
> their minds the names, faces, and dead shell companies
> left
> behind by the fund seekers.
>
> Where does this company get its money? (rhetorical
> question)
> What are its plans for revenue? Is it always going to
> rely on
> contributions from individuals? What venture
> capitalist would
> risk capital for this??!!?!?!? It used to be that
> future
> funding and public investment could build an
> acceptible revenue
> stream. No more. Money that comes from nowhere is
> not money.
>
> But, if you made your contribution, it is probably not
> necessary
> to worry about the IRS reversing the status. Maybe it
> really is
> a "donation", but consider the "cause" carfully before
> giving.
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
> http://platinum.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think it's great that kids are getting NEVs for their first vehicle.
Keeps that "Wilde" gene from taking over. There'll be no burning rubber in
these vehicles. Oh no what am I saying. Hotrodders will find a
way...Wonder what an NEV would do at 144v???? Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 2:35 PM
Subject: Re: NEVs "almost" legal in WA state
> Instead of saying "Why Wait for Detroit" some Port Townsend residents are
> saying "Why Wait for Olympia" and are purchasing NEVs and driving them on
> the city streets right now with their Calif. registrations which by law
are
> good for 60 days here. My friend with a GEM took the chief of Police for a
> ride and she was so impressed she ordered two of them today for the city.
I
> had a guy in today who wants to put in public charging at his expense in
the
> uptown commercial district. Another person bought one for their B&B to let
> their customers get around in while visiting this extremely scenic town. I
> hear they are ordering another one also. This is the kind of town where
they
> just may take off. We could become another Peachtree City, Georgia where
> they have 9000 registered NEVs in a town of 30,000. That's about two
thirds
> of the households. I hear from residents there that the high school
parking
> lots are filled with them.
>
> Roderick
>
> Roderick Wilde, President, EV Parts Inc.
> Your Online EV Superstore
> www.evparts.com
> 1-888-EV Parts (387-2787)
> Phone: 360-385-7966 Fax: 360-385-7922
> PO Box 221, 107 Louisa Street
> Port Townsend, WA 98368
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 11:40 AM
> Subject: NEVs "almost" legal in WA state
>
>
> >
> > Almost there!
> >
> > An article in today's Seattle Times:
> > http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/134656258_gocar19m.html
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Roy LeMeur Seattle WA
> >
> > My Electric Vehicle Pages:
> > http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
> >
> > Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
> > http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
> > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The EV List Archive does not have links. As its description
states it is only an Archive of the POSTs of the SJSU EV List.
No POSTs are allowed to be made directly to the archive.
Members are allowed on the yahoo group EV List as a
convienience.
The crest archive is unreliable, and the
http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/maillist.html
site is digests only (harder to use).
There are several versions of the EV List instructions out
on the internet. If the instructions you saw have dead links,
contact the owner of 'that' instruction page (not the site
that linked to it) and advise them of the dead links or
other corrections needed.
The EAA (Electric Auto Association) is a 501 3 c nonprofit
organization. Its chapters promote EV use, public awareness
of EVs, and provides EV information. Go to http://eaaev.org
and use the evs4sale and links pages. The EVs4Sale page
has links to all the sites that list used EVs that owners
have put for sale.
Also describe to the EV List concisly what you are looking
for. This will help you know what your EV driving needs are:
-what price range
-how fast do you need it to go
-how far do you need it go (20 miles per charge)
-how many passengers do you need to carry
-where are you going to charge (at home, at work, in the
public, on 120VAC or 220VAC)
-Do you have to have a new EV, or is a used EV OK, or are
you hot to build your own.
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
fyi
My POSTs are to be informative, and hopefully the subject
will communicate the intent.
John called this one right. I was not refering to, but
POSTed as an informational link. I do this as a service
to the EV List.
I do not know calcars. I am not envolved with them.
If you read their statement, they lay out want they
believe and what they want.
I POSTed with a subject that did not give a pro or con
intent. EV List'rs usually pick up on topics that
interest them and run with them.
If you have more questions, I would contact them,
and then bring back to the EV List what you find out.
-
From: John RA Benson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wed Mar 19, 2003 10:03 pm
Subject: Re: CalCars - A non-profit way to get EV's rolling
Maybe Bruce could answer that claim. He also posted the website,
not as a
warning, but as simply "plug-in hybrid efforts"
-
-
On 3/19/03 10:18 AM, "Lin Tse Hsu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> This is another of those sites that Bruce is referring
> to.
-
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi George,
I don't think what you are measuring is back emf.
Back emf is the force generated by any magnetic field as it approaches and
leaves a coil.
In the case of an ev where they aren't generally going to have permanent
magnets the rotor is still powered as it passes the stator coils and power
is generated.
It could be me using the wrong term here but let me assure you back emf
never goes out the shaft to drive a motor it always works against the motor,
and its value increases with motor speed at a rate up to around 4 to 1, this
is one of the reasons that you take a motor and run it on 12 volts and
measure its rpm and then on 24 volts its usually about 50% more speed rather
than 100% more as the increased voltage would lead you to believe.
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Peter,
I'm always open to correction so please excuse me if I make a mistake, but I
believe that back emf is the byproduct of an electric motor and just because
it is dealt with in them doesn't mean it is good or has to be there.
I am 100% sure I can remove any generated current in a motor, I haven't
quite figured out how im going to do this in a standard motor but I know it
can be done.
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Folks,
Yesterday after spending a week making inquiries locally and not so locally
for forklift type vehicles to use as a donor for my ev project I went and
paid for the local 72 volt forklift.
I had it delivered today and got a few nice surprises when I cleaned it
down.
The motor is about 12 inches long and 10 inches diameter, its plate
indicates that its rated at 7.5 horsepower as I was already aware and 1750
rpm, but a little further along it tells me that its series wound and that
its rated cont which I assume means continuous.
The lift motor has a totally separate controller so this means I may yet get
2 vehicles out of this.
I also got a huge 72 volt charger that is rates at 30 amps and has an 11
hour cycle with the option of normal charge or equalizing.
Additionally I got a nice little Curtis fuel gauge that will be one less
thing I need to buy.
I have been given a Mitsubishi stationwagon with a dead motor and this too
has a nice flat area in the rear for batteries, but without knowing what it
weighs im undecided as to weather its practical for my purposes.
The things that make the stationwagon worth looking at are that its diff
ratio will better suit my motor and its wheel diameter is also 14 inch
instead of 12 inch on the van, so maybe these 2 things will make the choice
for me, but for now I have enquiries in with the local wreckers for a small
diff suitable for the van.
Of course as these things usually happen, today I was informed of a cheap
golf cart, that might have been a far better donor or even simply a nice toy
to use as a test bed for the things I want to learn from an ev.
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
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