EV Digest 2660
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) EV insurance companies :-)
by Richard Bebbington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: batteries
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: EV Sites
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Reality closing in - LeSled wiring and universal input relays
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: E-meter alternative
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: S-10 problems (was pick-up truck dimensions?)
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: NEVs "almost" legal in WA state
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: E-meter alternative
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Motor, surprise!
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Rhett T. George)
10) Re: Heibao
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Reality closing in - LeSled wiring and universal input relays
by "Tim Clevenger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Motors was Heibao
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Heibao
by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Supplier question: Surplusev.com
by "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Bearing grease.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) EBEAA Meeting this Saturday, 3/22/03 10-12 in Alameda, CA
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) Re: Heibao
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Reality closing in - LeSled wiring and universal input relays
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Golf cart tires/rims replacements.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Reality closing in - LeSled wiring and universal input relays
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Supplier question: Surplusev.com
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) EVs do park free in San Jose or at least the're supposed to
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
23) xxx MGMT Course - "Electric Vehicles:...EVs are Disruptive Technology"
by Martin Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi again fellow EVers,
Well, I'm still waiting for the DVLA to
send me my new registration document with
"electric" written as the fuel type.... humph..
I might well do as Paul C. has suggested, and just
get an MOT test done, making sure the tester puts
"electric" down on the certificate, then take the paperwork
to my local DVLA office and moan (nicely) at them.
Anyway, Mellow Yellow needs some insurance, 'cos
then I can get it out of my driveway!
So while I was phoning one of the specialist brokers
( they do lots of highly modded cars, kitcars,etc ),
asking about the Supra, I mentioned the pickup and asked
for a quote. I told the nice lady that it was an extensively
modified 1974 Mini pickup, and it was a bit unusual
because it's electric. She said fine, I'll need to
ask you some questions...
Now, I was expecting the stock:
"oh.. our underwriters won't quote on that,
it's a bit weird"
kind of reply, but I almost fell off
my chair when the nice insurance lady said:
"Ok, an electric conversion, what voltage is it?
And what range ?"
Yikes! An insurance company that knows electric cars
exist, and that they aren't all milkfloats?? Cool!
What's even better is, she **didn't** ask what current
the controller can put out. So they have no idea
whether my pickup's got a wimpy Curtis with 40kW of power
( which it has got :-( ), or whether it's got a
monster high-current controller like a Zilla!
But I'm sure the forms I'll have to fill out will ask
how much power the vehicle has...
So, I got a quote for a limited mileage policy, the
cost's not too bad, considering there's no no-claims
discount that I can use ( it'll all be used up on
insuring either my Smartie, or a Supra )
It'll be interesting to see if other specialist
insurers are this clued-up, as I ask around for quotes...
to be continued.....
Richard Bebbington
Electric Mini pickup
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden wrote:
> On 17 Mar 2003 at 19:28, Jim Coate wrote:
>
> > I pack my batteries close together, as it helps keep them
warm in the
> > cold winters where I am. However, if it is always hot where
you are,
> > leaving space for air on the sides would help keep the
battery
> > temperature down.
>
> You should also consider the fact that lead batteries with
conventional
> plates swell in the in the long dimension as they age. If you
fit them into
> a box too tightly, they will be very difficult to remove when
it's time to
> replace them. I recommend allowing at least 10mm between
batteries.
I've been smearing the sides of my 6V batteries with a small dab
of vaseline before they are installed. I figure that might break
up some of that plastic "stick" that occurs when plastic parts
are stuck together under pressure over time. So far, I have not
had any problems pulling out old batteries, and I don't think
it's come yet to having to rely on the vaseline. I even had one
replacement battery go in that was a rather swollen Trojan T-125,
and had to be wiggled in rather aggressively. It came ok out a
few months later when I replaced the whole pack.
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Carmen Farruggia wrote:
> Say, anyone have thoughts on t the small but may have potential
Reva. I
> hear they are working on a LHD for us here in the states.
Only $6000
There is a nice article called "Curry favor" on the Reva in the
"electric & hybrid vehicle technology international" mag, annual
review 2002. I don't know if this article has been posted to a
website. The publisher's email address is
[EMAIL PROTECTED] I have not had this issue more than a
few months, so it should be current as of towards the end of
2002.
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One time an EAA - North Bay Chapter member's wife drove off in
their electric Chevette (one that had a rather large "Electric"
on the hatchback lid) with the charging cord still plugged into
the inlet on the left-rear fender. Apparently she got it
unplugged from the wall outlet, but then got diverted or
something. She got quite a ways down the road with the cord
bouncing along behind the car before somebody waving got her
attention...
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Furniss <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 10:29 AM
Subject: Re: Reality closing in - LeSled wiring and universal
input relays
> Hi Chris,
>
> Here are a couple of thing to think about, if you install a
relay to
> break either the high voltage or low voltage circuit of your
traction pack,
> that will be inserting another possible failure point into your
system
> making it harder to find those pesky intermittent no go
problem, that setup
> disables the traction motor, or you could use a non-disabling
circuit,
> something like a back-up alarm inside the car and connect it so
that when
> the relay see A/C voltage it close the relay to the alarm and
the ignition
> key supplies the D/C to the alarm warning you not to drive off,
either way
> you do it there is a chance of driving off while the car is
still plugged
> in, like when the breaker pops or the plug gets knocked loose
at the wall
> end. But to answer your question a solid state relay has a
universal A/C
> input and a isolated D/C output, try www.mouser.com
>
> www.lasvegasev.com
> Richard Furniss
> Las Vegas, NV
> 1986 Mazda EX-7 192v
> 1981 Lectra Centauri 108v
> 3 Wheel Trail Master 12v
> Board Member, www.lveva.org
> Las Vegas Electric Vehicle Association
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 5:29 AM
> Subject: Reality closing in - LeSled wiring and universal input
relays
>
>
> > After spending over four years learning all I can about EVs
and
> > (oh-so-slowly) building my LeSled, I'm finally getting to the
point
> > where I'm doing real EV-like stuff to it. So far it's been
planning and
> > sheetmetal work to fit 10 US145s under the hood. (This is no
small
> > task, and I've only been able to work on it at a rate of
about one hour
> > per week. Having to work for a living really bites.)
> >
> > Anyway, my (ahem) EV worldliness is now of little use. I'm
getting into
> > the nitty gritty of making one actually work. The concern du
jour came
> > up while laying out my wiring. This is the first of probably
many
> > stupid questions from the resident electrical idiot.
> >
> > I'll be using a PFC-20 charger, in part because I really like
the wide
> > range of input voltages. I also want a charger interlock
relay to break
> > the circuit to my contactors while charging. (For the
newbies, this is
> > so you can't drive off while you're still plugged into the
wall.) Is
> > there such a thing as a relay with a universal input voltage?
I'll
> > assume you can't use a relay with a 240V coil and expect it
to work on
> > 120V. Alternatively, is there a simple circuit you could put
ahead of
> > the relay coil that would give it a consistent voltage
regardless of
> > what the plug sees? This might also be used to power fans,
heaters,
> > etc. while plugged in. Is the easy way out of this to use a
universal
> > input power supply for these devices?
> >
> > I've thought about using a switch on the charging port door
instead of a
> > line-sensing relay to achieve this interlock function. The
problem is
> > that the Renault LeCar doesn't have a door over the former
gas filler,
> > just a flush screw-on cap. Making a charging port with a
proper door
> > would be a Big Job.
> >
> > Maybe the best solution would be a charger interlock built
into the
> > PFC-20. I didn't see any mention of one in the installation
> > instructions. Rich, how hard would this be to add?
> >
> > How do people handle a charger interlock with variable line
voltages?
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor,
Nice OEM look.
Regarding:
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/33.jpg
Is that Tyvek around some batteries, normally used as a barrier between
house siding and the sheathing underneath to keep air from coming in, but
also lets the moisture out?!
And:
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/11.jpg
I hope you take that ring off when you're working around the traction
wiring, and machine tools!
Much to my wife's dismay, I keep forgetting to put my wedding ring back on
all the time. Maybe for our 25th anniversary this year, I'll have a ring
tattoo done (along with a tattoo like the one Roderick was sporting at
Woodburn)!
Wishing I had an E-meter, let alone a Brusa gadget,
Dave (B.B.) Hawkins
Executive VP of the Denver Electric Vehicle Council
(With an emphasis on youth education)
http://www.devc.org/
Lyons, CO
1979 Mazda RX-7 EV (192V of YT's, for the 16 year-old son!)
1989 Chevy S10 Ext. Cab (144V of floodies, for Ma and Pa only!)
>Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 15:25:54 -0800
>From: Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>I spent 9.1 Ah driving to work this morning. What's the big deal
>about it?
>
>Well, I specify the number because just installed brand new
>Brusa Ah counter, integrating it into the CRX instrument cluster.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tom and All,
Having "finally" caught up with the EVDL posts (read 250 yesterday), should
I waste bandwidth talking about all the problems with S10's (and other
"American made" light duty trucks/cars)? Other than one off-list e-mail,
nobody else asked about the particulars. And, do you just want to know
about chassis and body problems as they relate to a conversion, because I
can also talk about the ICE and related component problems, as I'm trying
to keep a '92 gasser on the road?! On the other hand, we could talk about
the politics of why people buy vehicles from the big three, thinking
they're "Made In The U.S.A.". My S10's were assembled in Canada, using
components that could have been built by sweat-shop labor in GM factories
just over the Mexican border! Maybe I should have converted a Toyota, which
I've heard have a very good maintenance record, but I'm wondering if they
are sweat-shop labor free.
Snow bound lately,
Dave (B.B.) Hawkins
Executive VP of the Denver Electric Vehicle Council
(With an emphasis on youth education)
http://www.devc.org/
Lyons, CO
1979 Mazda RX-7 EV (192V of YT's, for the 16 year-old son!)
1989 Chevy S10 Ext. Cab (144V of floodies, for Ma and Pa only!)
>From: "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 16:16:38 -0800
>
>It sounds like you believe that something or several things are seriously
>wrong
>with S-10s. Please tell us what the problem or problems are. If we are
>going
>to take your comments seriously, we need to know why.
>
>Tom Shay
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: "EV Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 12:39 PM
>Subject: Re: pick-up truck dimensions?
>
>
>> Jim and All,
>> Having converted an S10, I agree with Alan and his list of reasons to use
>> an S10 (pre '94) instead of a Ranger or Asian truck for a conversion: both
>> rear shocks are aft mounted, frame rails are wide, drive shaft is
>centered.
>> However, you need to realize that the S10 is a piece of sh*%, and in the
>> words of people like Bill Dube, if you start with a gas piece of sh$@,
>> $6000+ and 100-200 hours later, you'll end up with an electric piece of
>> sh!&. I do know that new and used S10 parts are cheap and plentiful, but
>> again, you get what you pay for! Instead of using an S10, some people have
>> made suspension modifications on one of the other truck brands, and might
>> have ended up with a better chassis and body. After all, you'll be living
>> with your conversion for a while. Maybe the '94 and newer S10's are
>better,
>> and someone else can chime in and tell us.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Instead of saying "Why Wait for Detroit" some Port Townsend residents are
saying "Why Wait for Olympia" and are purchasing NEVs and driving them on
the city streets right now with their Calif. registrations which by law are
good for 60 days here. My friend with a GEM took the chief of Police for a
ride and she was so impressed she ordered two of them today for the city. I
had a guy in today who wants to put in public charging at his expense in the
uptown commercial district. Another person bought one for their B&B to let
their customers get around in while visiting this extremely scenic town. I
hear they are ordering another one also. This is the kind of town where they
just may take off. We could become another Peachtree City, Georgia where
they have 9000 registered NEVs in a town of 30,000. That's about two thirds
of the households. I hear from residents there that the high school parking
lots are filled with them.
Roderick
Roderick Wilde, President, EV Parts Inc.
Your Online EV Superstore
www.evparts.com
1-888-EV Parts (387-2787)
Phone: 360-385-7966 Fax: 360-385-7922
PO Box 221, 107 Louisa Street
Port Townsend, WA 98368
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 11:40 AM
Subject: NEVs "almost" legal in WA state
>
> Almost there!
>
> An article in today's Seattle Times:
> http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/134656258_gocar19m.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Roy LeMeur Seattle WA
>
> My Electric Vehicle Pages:
> http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
>
> Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
> http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" wrote:
>
> Victor,
> Nice OEM look.
>
> Regarding:
> http://www.metricmind.com/misc/33.jpg
> Is that Tyvek around some batteries, normally used as a barrier between
> house siding and the sheathing underneath to keep air from coming in, but
> also lets the moisture out?!
Yes. In this case it holds together a layer or insulating foam
about 6mm thick) which helps to keep the batteries warmer
in the winter.
> And:
> http://www.metricmind.com/misc/11.jpg
> I hope you take that ring off when you're working around the traction
> wiring, and machine tools!
Yes, I know, but no, I don't remove it since my knuckle now
grew a bit larger than the ring. I use one hand when I work
on live circuit, and usually I wear thin rubber gloves.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
- Greetings -
Yup, playing with motors. Measure the resistance of an armature circuit
and read the amps going in. With 10 VDC in, we get 2.5 VDC given up to
resistive drop in the armature and brushes where the 2.5 V is the product
of armature current times resistance of the circuit. That current times
2.5 V is the power dissipated in the motor as heat. The 7.5 VDC left has
to be the back EMF. Where did it go ? ? Out the shaft as mechanical power
minus what was llost to friction on the commutator and in the bearings.
Let's not get rid of the back EMF.
Learning is fun!
Rhett George
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>> Minor point; you don't need software to build an AC motor drive.
>> The fan in your computer is an AC motor drive with no computer
>> or software.
>>
>> Software and computers are today's fashionable solution, but
>> we've had AC inverter motor drives for 50+years, since the days
>> of vacuum tubes. The power devices are what dominate the price.
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> This is one extremely rare occasions where Lee is wrong.
What did I get wrong, Victor?
> Indeed, you need extra silicon for every inverter but only one
> time designed software. But the software is not fixed and evolving
> together with other constant improvements to the inverter hardware
> and new motors, it is much more than changing new motor parameters.
>
> In case of Siemens inverters, new generation is simpler
> (hardware wise): one CPU/interface PCB and six pack IGBT module.
> Yet it cost more. Why? One improvement I know of - thermal model
> of the motors you can attach had to be developed, formalized,
> programmed, tested, debugged.
Do you mean that they spent more money on software development, so they
raised the price of the inverter to cover it? If so, this surprises me.
I have worked on many projects with microcomputers, where we kept
developing the software on a continuous improvement basis. Every few
months, we'd introduce a new product variation, which was really just
the old product with some software enhancements. Sometimes we could
raise the price because there was no competition (yet). More often, we
had to LOWER the price or include the new features for "free" due to
competitive pressure.
But in every case, our true *manufacturing* cost was going down at a
much faster rate than the cost of the extra software development. The
tooling was amortized, we developed faster and better ways to assemble
and test the product, and the parts themselves kept going down in price.
> Many iterations needed to get more-less complete picture of what's
> going on... And you're paying mathematicians, material scientists
> and programmers for the development of this software.
It might be that Siemens builds their inverters as if they are selling
millions -- but in fact they are only selling thousands. Thus, their
development expenses are huge, and they have to charge a much higher
price per drive to pay for them. (They *hope* to sell millions someday;
but aren't doing it yet).
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From : "Kevin Coughlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To :
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject : Re: Reality closing in - LeSled wiring
and universal input relays Date : Wed, 19 Mar 2003 13:13:47 -0800
And for when THAT fails, there is a one foot long extension
cord between the rig and the normal extension, with a straight plug, so if
you DO drive off without unplugging, AND the other device fails, you are at
least guaranteed that the short cord / regular cord connection is in a
straight line and can be yanked on. You still drive down the road looking
like a goof with a foot long extension cord attached.... but that is better
than yanking the plug off the wires, or out of the roof of the fire
station.
...or having the whole cord unplug neatly from the wall and then wrap around
an axle as you head down the road.
Tim
_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> These motors you are using are not well designed, the closest thing you can
> buy to a well designed motor these days is the pancake motors often used for
> radiator fans in cars.
>
> A simple example of this is back emf, your motors are still dealing with
> this when it is not necessary.
> The output of an electric motor can be shrunk down to a/v in minus a/v out
> minus friction equals work output.
>
> If you simply remove back emf which is the a/v out the amount of work is
> increased for the given power consumption.
Back EMF is intrinsic to the way motors work and it is not possible to
"remove" it. If you think you can then you don't really understand how
motors work.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've been following this thread and agree that invertors and motors could be
made more cheaply if made in quantity. However, I feel a better comparison
would be to compare an EV drive/motor with an industrial Variable Frequency
Drive/motor setup. While I believe most VFDs will work with any 3 phase
motor, I have yet to find one at an affordable price. Like EV drives, they
are also very expensive (at least in the 50 - 100 KW range). At one time, I
thought about trying to find one surplus to use in a conversion, but my
research has proved fruitless. Part of it is just the cost of parts to
handle that level of power, but I'm sure a lot of it is also due to the
limited market. (former) EV makers currently see the market as very limited
(incorrectly, I believe) and believe they have to recover their costs
(research, programing, etc.) over a very limited production. This was
especially true when production was limited to what was required under the
CARB MOA. If they would actually ramp up production so that the development
costs were spread over a lorge number of vehicles, the cost would come down
to where it would sell for not too much over the costs of the parts,
assembly, shipping, marketing, etc., much like the ICE vehicles.
When GM develops a new car, the development costs are not recovered in the
first year of production, but are spread out over the life of the product
line. ICE cars normally go for 5 years or so before substantial changes are
made. In the case of light trucks and SUVs, that can be 20 or 30 years or
more (which is why they are so profitable). My 2000 Chevy pickup is not
much different from the 86 version. If you look under the skin, it's not
much different from my old 69 pickup. Suburbans and their derivatives,
including the Escalade and the Hummer H2, are built on this same platform.
Because the majority of research was paid off decades ago, the profit is
enormous. This is why you see so much advertising for these vehicles.
If an automaker would produce an EV in large quantities and plan on
producing essentially the same car over 5 to 10 years, I believe we could
see the price of EVs at or below that of ICE cars.
Well, my rant really progressed off topic, so I'll now step down from my
soap box and turn it over to the next in line.
Dave Davidson
Laurel, Maryland
1993 Dodge TEVan
From: "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Heibao
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 09:15:29 +1200
Hi Timothy,
Spot on, ive said this twice now but I guess it ruins Victors post topic if
he reads it and takes it in.
A motor is a motor they all have the same parts so where do you spend
thousands on a motor to make the difference was my point.
Manufacturing costs work both ways guys.
Its true that you may have to charge heaps to cover your costs relative to
sales numbers, but its also true that as long as the market stays captive
and the manufacturer controls the price he will be doing far more than
covering costs and this means its too expensive for a lot of people to buy,
so the number of sales is limited, catch 22.
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
_________________________________________________________________
Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Quick question: Anyone have thoughts on dealings with surplusev.com?
Good/bad/whatever?
Private replies to [EMAIL PROTECTED] would be fine.
Thanks
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is there a good synthetic bearing grease that would work well in EVs. I am
putting back together the Laher Carts front bearings and replaced everything
including the metal dust caps with rubber seals. Going with industrial
parts and seals. Should be as good as new now maybe better because the
seals are better. I might also repack my Aspire bearings. I heard Amsoil
makes a good grease. Lawrence Rhodes....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
*********START OF MEETING ANNOUNCEMENT***********
Hands-on EV Maintenance
by members of the EBEAA
Saturday, March 22, 2003
>From 10 to 12 noon
Meeting Location: Alameda First Baptist Church
1515 Santa Clara Ave, Alameda
Visitors welcome, open to the public.
Our Annual East Bay Rally in Pleasant Hill / Concord is coming up on April
26 - spring time and Earthdays. So in anticipation, we need to get some EVs
fixed up. Time for some hands-on involvement and sharing of skills. So wear
some close to get dirty in. Maybe we'll install the brakes Warren rebuilt
for the club's CommutaCar.
Also we'll have last minute discussions about carpooling and participation
in the CARB meeting for the next week - March 27-28. Critical meeting to
determine if we have an extended backout on production EV availability.
Annual East Bay EAA Rally - Spring
(http://geocities.com/ebeaa/rally2003.html)
Need to coordinate planning for possibly Fall Rally in the San Leandro /
Hayward area. Maybe we can coordinate this with a charging station
installation.
Directions: Church is on North side of street, at the corner of Santa Clara
Ave and Stanton St in Alameda. Turn North on Stanton St. and left into the
parking lot.
http://www.geocities.com/ebeaa
**********END OF MEETING ANNOUNCEMENT************
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>
> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> > This is one extremely rare occasions where Lee is wrong.
>
> What did I get wrong, Victor?
I should correct myself - most of the *complexity* the inverter
is in it's software, which takes more resources to develop by highly
compensated skilled programmers and the part of the inverter most of
the time/resources is spent on, cost more. As I mentioned,
newer inverter, being simpler (hardware wise) cost more and new
software is the only reason for that.
>
> Do you mean that they spent more money on software development, so they
> raised the price of the inverter to cover it? If so, this surprises me.
I' really don't know their business model, but I see no other sources
to cover software development cost (other than just price per unit).
> I have worked on many projects with microcomputers, where we kept
> developing the software on a continuous improvement basis. Every few
> months, we'd introduce a new product variation, which was really just
> the old product with some software enhancements. Sometimes we could
> raise the price because there was no competition (yet). More often, we
> had to LOWER the price or include the new features for "free" due to
> competitive pressure.
For good or for bad, Siemens I think has very little competitive
pressure. It allows to raise prices, but the market is weak, so they
can do it up to the point.
Going opposite way they can lower them up to the point where
they decide to drop whole business while the systems still
stay relative expensive, otherwise EV division wastes money.
>
> But in every case, our true *manufacturing* cost was going down at a
> much faster rate than the cost of the extra software development.
They must be putting much more in the software R&D.
> It might be that Siemens builds their inverters as if they are selling
> millions -- but in fact they are only selling thousands. Thus, their
> development expenses are huge, and they have to charge a much higher
> price per drive to pay for them. (They *hope* to sell millions someday;
> but aren't doing it yet).
Exactly, and they may never will. But if they choose do sell *any*,
software is still top notch, so expensive per unit.
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I have done that, drive down the road with the extension cord following
behind . Very humiliating. neighbor got a good laugh.
My though is that you want somthing that will not let the car run when cord
is pluged into car even if the cord is not pluged into the house..some small
micro switch that the cord pushes agenst ../.... then you don't have to
worry about the voltage or if the cord is pluged into the house .
Steve Clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 10:04 AM
Subject: Re: Reality closing in - LeSled wiring and universal input relays
> Chris Tromley wrote:
> > Is there such a thing as a relay with a universal input voltage?
>
> Some relays have dual 120/240vac coils, which you wire in series or
> parallel. Solid state relays normally have a very wide input voltage
> range; 10:1 or so.
>
> > I'll assume you can't use a relay with a 240V coil and expect it
> > to work on 120V.
>
> No, but the reverse is true; you can use a 120vac relay on 240vac. The
> coil will overheat if you leave it on too long, but you can fix that by
> using one of the relay's own contacts to switch a resistor in series
> with the coil when it is pulled in. The resistor is chosen to reduce the
> voltage by half (120vac across the coil, 120vac across the resistor).
>
> > Alternatively, is there a simple circuit you can put ahead of the
> > relay coil that would give it a consistent voltage regardless of
> > what the plug sees?
>
> Yes again. The simplest circuit is a plain old light bulb in series with
> the coil. Light bulbs work as a crude constant-current source. Pick a
> bulb that happens to provide 120vac across the coil when the line
> voltage is 240vac. You'll find that on 120vac, the bulb will barely
> glow, but the relay coils still has 90-100vac (enough to guarantee that
> a 120vac coil will pull in).
>
> > This might also be used to power fans, heaters, etc. while plugged in.
>
> The high tech solution is to have a universal input switching power
> supply, and use its regulated output voltage to power your relay coil.
> The PFC-20 may already have such a supply with enough power for your
> relay.
>
> > I've thought about using a switch on the charging port door instead
> > of a line-sensing relay to achieve this interlock function. The
> > problem is that the Renault LeCar doesn't have a door over the
> > former gas filler, just a flush screw-on cap.
>
> On my LeCar, I've taken the opposite approach. The main contactors have
> an auxiliary switch; its contacts are wired to the charger so the key
> has to be off to enable the charger.
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
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--- Begin Message ---
My Laher takes a 5 lug 18 x 9.50 - 8. What tread pattern is legal in
California? Do Trailer tires with 5 lug fit? Is it wise to go with
narrower tires? The Laher runs. Gotta figure out how to speed it up a bit.
Don't really want to run wide tires unless it is to my benefit. Lawrence
Rhodes...
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Use a reed switch and small magnet attached to the filler hatch door
If you use it for inlet location). This way you can't drive with hatch
open even if nothing plugged in, *ensuring* you can't drive away while
charging.
Victor
1sclunn wrote:
>
> I have done that, drive down the road with the extension cord following
> behind . Very humiliating. neighbor got a good laugh.
> My though is that you want somthing that will not let the car run when cord
> is pluged into car even if the cord is not pluged into the house..some small
> micro switch that the cord pushes agenst ../.... then you don't have to
> worry about the voltage or if the cord is pluged into the house .
> Steve Clunn
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--- Begin Message ---
I bought 6 of the Hawker G13EP's from them several months ago. I was very
pleased with all aspects of the transaction.
damon
From: "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Supplier question: Surplusev.com
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 18:17:11 -0500
Quick question: Anyone have thoughts on dealings with surplusev.com?
Good/bad/whatever?
Private replies to [EMAIL PROTECTED] would be fine.
Thanks
Chris
_________________________________________________________________
STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
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--- Begin Message ---
Bruce and fellow San Jose listers,
After reading Bruce's post about Free EV parking in SJ I was concerned that his
experience was either the rule or would be taken as the new rule. I decided to find
out for myself.
I contacted the Off-Street Parking Administrator and asked if the city still had free
parking for "Clean Air Vehicles". He indicated that yes they did, most of the rate
signs have been updated to reflect this and that if I had any questions please feel
free to ask.
Next I wandered over to the San Pedro parking garage and asked the attendant if EVs
parked free. He said yes. I then asked how they identified an EV. "We know what they
look like". Wow I'm impressed! I sure don't know what ALL the EVs look like. Time
for another email...
I sent my experience in an email to my new friend and his reply is below. Hopefully
Bruce's experience will be better
next time.
Steve
Steve:
All of the attendant have a copy of the "sticker".
I've also forwarded to them a copy of the California
DMV's Electric Cars that have been sold in California, which includes the Chevy S-10
conversion. To see a copy of it,
it is right here: <http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/factsheets/avalzevs.htm>.
They are to look for the sticker, when prompted by the parker - especially on these
other types of vehicles. Thanks for your efforts in keeping us honest. I'll remind
our operator to ensure that they give this answer to people who
try to park and say they have an electric vehicle.
JASON
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--- Begin Message ---
Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
"Ran across this MIT Management course a month ago on the web..."
This is vt; Virginia Tech
"...would bring it to your attention. It's not at all positive about EVs calling
them a "Disruptive Technology." The class seems to still be in session. It's
dated February 17, 2003."
I read the first example which is the .pdf you mention. While it may
be made up (perhaps by Prof. Christensen), it does read like an
internal study document. But, the course is not pro or con, it is a
lesson in advancing a type of technology. I'm not interested in the
particular lessons, but if someone wants to succeed in an EV business,
this course could be valuable. And, the .pdf represents the thinking
of a manager in an influential department. The material appears to be
circa mid 2000
"http://mit.iddl.vt.edu/courses/mgt5804/coursecontent/lecture6.html";
Masters of Information Technology
Institute for Distance & Distributed Learning
Virginia Tech
educational URL
mit.iddl.vt.edu
"How it hits personally is that they are using our EVA/DC website as resource
material for the students to get information on EVs."
I think that is a complement to the site and its material
"They seem to be using the EV as a model for why technologies fail."
It's an example of why any of several new (disruptive) technologies
fail and you benifit in business understanding the causees of failure.
"The PDF files they provide the class cannot be printed nor can the text from
them be copied because MIT encrypted the PDF files which is pretty odd for a
college course unless they were trying to prevent the students from
plagerism."
That is one of the reasons for using .pdf files.
"If you can get past the negativeness, it is interesting reading and you get
a perspective from the industry's side."
Below the line is the text (not including any images) from the
Example #1 .pdf ...It took a long time to type in... :o)
______________________________________________________________________
from:
http://mit.iddl.vt.edu/courses/mgt5804/coursecontent/handouts/EV-example1.PDF
E-Vehicles: An Action Plan for General Motors
Executive Summary:
The electric vehicle is infeasible after considering all its
disadvantages of speed, constantly recharging battery, and costs in
comparison to regular internal combustion engine vehicles. The
government mandate is political and impractical when compared with the
consumer wants and needs. Consumers must be given the freedom to make
their own choices.
It is necessary to continue research and educate the consumer about
the electric vehicle through various mass media. Some alternatives to
the electric vehicle are Hybrids (near-term) and Fuel Cells (long-
term). Lithium-ion rechargeable batteries are environment friendly and
may replace conventional rechargeable battery technologies such as
nickel-cadmium and lead-acid. Emission control methods should also be
adopted. Honda's successful introduction of the gasoline-electric
vehicle `Insight' is a huge step towards hybrid technologies. A
continuous joint effort by all the big manufacturers and government
organizations will help us move more quickly towards this goal of a
zero-emission, low cost, high range vehicle.
The electric vehicle is not feasible.
In order to achieve success in meeting the California Air Resources
Board (CARB) mandate, GM must produce a car that consumers will buy.
In order to get a consumer to buy it, the vehicle must demonstrate the
same functionality as an internal combustion engine vehicle, at
approximately the same price. Holding the functionality of the car
constant, there are several areas where the electric vehicle simply
cannot compete.
Range
Arguing that the current internal combustion engine cars provide more
range than necessary, the electric vehicle still does not meet the
minimum 125-mile range. Considering this is a 69 percent decrease from
the expected internal combustion range of 400 miles, the inability to
meet even a low threshold indicates that consumers will not use the
vehicle.
Recharging
Recharging the electric vehicle takes approximately six hours, as
opposed to about fifteen minutes to refuel a conventional car.
Furthermore, recharging at home is not very easy, given that the
charger requires 240-Volt electricity and residential power is
typically 120 Volts. The needed modification costs about $800,
therefore decreasing the availability of a charger. An electric car
simply cannot be charged just anywhere.
Cost
An average conventional car has an operating cost of approximately 5.2
cents a mile. The best that an electric vehicle can achieve at this
time is 35.4 cents a mile. Operating costs of seven times the internal
combustion car would provide serious problems. Additionally, battery
replacement costs $3280 a year. An outlay of this amount of money in a
car on an annual basis would meet the criteria set out in most states
lemon laws. GM would be deliberately forcing a vehicle upon consumers
that would run a foul of many states consumer protection laws. These
costs may come down in the future; however, the mandate is based on
where technology wants to be in several years, not where it currently
is. GM cannot presume innovation. (See Table 1 below)
Is the Mandate appropriate?
By 2003 all new personal vehicles sold in CA, NY, MA should be ZEV.
With the present available technology, only electric vehicles come
close to ZEV. Even though the mandate is appropriate to reduce the
pollution level in these states, the fact of the matter is that
electric vehicles are not yet ready technologically for mass
production. Their reliability is still not proven and actual road use
is still experimental. Keeping these issues in mind, a government
mandate to sell these vehicles does not seem appropriate.
Mandates cannot be applied to experimental technologies. A mandate can
be levied only after extensive analysis is undertaken and proven to be
successful. Such a mandate is partisan and is being levied only to
appease certain elements of the system. It is becoming clearer that
the ZEV mandate doesn't make sense. One cannot mandate a technological
breakthrough. Consumers have to choose electric cars for themselves
and be willing to sacrifice the additional dollars, speed, and time
spent charging batteries. The mandate specifies the quota of
E-Vehicles to be sold as a percentage of gasoline vehicles sold. As a
result, if E-Vehicles cost more to produce than they can be sold for,
then selling additional gasoline vehicles involves the implicit cost
of extra EV losses. This extra cost may lead to substantial increases
in gasoline vehicle prices -- as much as $550 per vehicle. (See Fig. 1
Below)
FIGURE 1
Educating the Masses about the electric vehicle
. Work in partnership with industry and build on their ongoing
efforts, develop and initiate a coordinated campaign to increase
public awareness and knowledge of electric vehicles.
. Familiarity with the unique properties, features, attributes, and
safety aspects associated with electric vehicles will inevitably
increase consumer acceptance.
. Educational efforts should also inform the public on the location of
recharging sites.
. Specific activities include co-funding preparation of publications,
television advertising, a toll free information phone number, and
educational videos.
Alternate methods for a ZEV
Automobile manufacturers are seeing more success with other
alternative car fuels such as propane, ethanol and methanol, which
constitute a less radical change, and are therefore cheaper and more
acceptable to consumers. Even natural gas, the oldest alternative fuel
for cars, has been getting a boost from engines designed to run on
either gasoline or natural gas.
Future efforts should concentrate on Hybrids (near-term), and Fuel
Cells (long- term) as solutions to the problem. A standard lead-acid
battery electric car will not be ready for prime time; instead GM
should promote an ultra-lightweight hybrid alternative that uses
electric motors located in the wheels in conjunction with a small
onboard engine, possibly a gas turbine or a conventional
internal-combustion motor, to extend the range.
Political Lobbying
The projected cost of implementing an E-Vehicle policy in CA is
enormous, requiring vehicle subsidies as high as $10,000 and $20,000
per vehicle. Laws can be enacted in Congress to allow tax deductions
for the amount spent on buying or maintaining an EV. Local, state, and
federal governments should offer incentives to buy the electric
vehicle.
Battery
GM and the other big car manufacturers are investing millions of
dollars in research to develop high performance, reliable, and safe
batteries. The USABC is primarily involved in this effort with other
contributors including USCAR (United States Council for Automotive
Research) and Sandia - a company working with USABC to enhance the
lithium-ion batteries.
Sandia and their Lithium-ion batteries -- an alternative
Lithium-ion rechargeable batteries are high tech, environmentally
friendly electrical energy storage devices that offer more energy in
smaller, lighter packages to replace conventional rechargeable battery
technologies such as nickel-cadmium and lead-acid. Sandia is
developing low cost intercalation electrode materials, synthetic
carbon, and manganese dioxide, specially developed for use in high
power battery applications, such as electric or hybrid vehicles.
Intercalation materials act as a framework for lithium ions thereby
eliminating the need to use lithium metal in batteries. In lithium-ion
batteries, electrical energy absorbed as lithium ions is transferred
from the manganese dioxide host material to the carbon during charge.
During discharge, the stored energy is released as the lithium ions
are transferred from the carbon to the manganese oxide. Some of the
key benefits from this research include consumer and environmental
safety, manufacturing simplicity, low cost and long battery cycle
life. Lithium-ion batteries will enable electric vehicles to go four
times farther than electric vehicles using lead- acid batteries.
Lithium-ion batteries will also last longer than lead-acid batteries
before having to be replaced. There are also weight savings associated
with the lithium-ion batteries.
USCAR / SAFT and their Nickel metal hydride batteries -- another
alternative
As of September 1999, SAFT developed a Nickel Metal hydride battery,
which to date has been one of the best in terms of safety and
performance. While they have made good progress, cost and size still
remains an issue. USABC has entered into a contract with SAFT to
continue research on the lithium-ion technology, as it seems to be the
most viable option going forward.
USABC is one of 12 consortia under USCAR, which coordinates
cooperative, pre-competitive research projects of DaimlerChrysler,
Ford, and GM.
What should GM do in the interim?
In the interim, GM should consider options to reduce emission by
adopting some of the options listed below:
1. Lightweight materials.
2. Energy conversion using concepts like regenerative braking.
3. Develop devices that can store energy that is consumed by the
combustion process.
4. Move the design of the engine to a point where "hybrid" power
sources are feasible.
5. In addition to investing in the efforts of the USABC, GM should
also work with metal research groups to develop new lightweight,
high-strength materials to reduce vehicle weight.
Combining efforts
Introduction of the hybrid vehicle into the American automobile
industry proves that near zero emissions vehicles are not only
possible but may also prove to be profitable illustrated by Honda's
gasoline electric hybrid vehicle `Insight'. Honda's `Insight' is
currently the only gasoline-electric car sold in America. It can
travel 600 - 700 miles on a single tank of gas, averaging 61 city
miles per gallon and 70 highway miles per gallon. Compare these
numbers with current purely electrical vehicles, which average maximum
distance ranges of 125 - 150 miles before the car's battery must be
recharged. Recently Honda increased production in America by 50% to
meet demand producing 6,500 Insights thus far in the year 2000.
Honda has received multiple awards including Sierra Club's Excellence
in Environmental Engineering, increasing customer awareness and
support of the hybrid vehicle. GM could also achieve similar rewards
by following closely the hybrid path. Currently, GM and Ford, along
with Honda, contribute to a partnership with University of California
at Riverside's College of Engineering / Center for Environmental
Research and Technology (UCR/CE-CERT) and the Environmental Protection
Agency. The goals of this partnership include developing technology
and techniques for accurately measuring emissions at near zero levels,
understanding how extremely low emission vehicles perform under ``real
world'' conditions, and accessing the air quality benefits and
environmental impacts of these vehicles. 1 Utilizing results of this
partnership and automobile knowledge inherent within the General
Motors organization, GM can produce a quality, well selling, hybrid
vehicle combining greater distance ranges than current electric
vehicles, near zero emissions meeting the requirement of the
California Air Resources Board (CARB) and lower costs to the consumer
based on lack of need for expensive recharging equipment.
note 1: taken from Honda's website, www.Honda.com
______________________________________________________________________
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