EV Digest 2688
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: EVLN(State considers abandoning EVs for fuel vehicles)
by "Mark Thomasson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Bassoonist in San Francisco wants Insight or other long range EV
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Any word from CARB?
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Motor, Surprise!
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Making the degree sign (was Re: Motor, Surprise!)
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Buck converters (was Re: AC controllers)
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Buck converters, Correction.
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: MagneChargers outdoors
by "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) MagneCharge HO!
by "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: EVLN(State considers abandoning EVs for fuel vehicles)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) Re: EVLN(State considers abandoning EVs for fuel vehicles)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) Re: Wind turbines in Iowa?
by Ryan Fulcher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Bassoonist in San Francisco wants Insight or other long range
EV
by Carmen Farruggia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Making the degree sign (was Re: Motor, Surprise!)
by "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: MagneCharge HO!
by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Motor, Surprise!- More research
by "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Making the degree sign (was Re: Motor, Surprise!)
by "Harris, Lawrence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: MagneCharge HO!
by "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Motor, Surprise!- More research
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Motor, Surprise!- More research
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Making the degree sign (was Re: Motor, Surprise!)
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: EVLN(State considers abandoning EVs for fuel vehicles)
by Ryan Fulcher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Motor, Surprise!
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Motor, Surprise!- More research
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Motor, Surprise!- More research
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: motors with no magnetic fields.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Buck converters, Correction.
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Motor, Surprise!- More research
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Here is a good summary of our energy situation. Hydrogen stuff starts on
page 4.
http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 4:54 AM
Subject: Re: EVLN(State considers abandoning EVs for fuel vehicles)
> Fuel cell powered car is nothing but an EV powered by taking hydrogen
> from fossil fuel while on board the vehicle.
> 1)What is the percentage of energy in hydrogen divided by the percentage
> of the fossil fuel it is being removed from ?
> 2) How does the mile per gallon of fuel decrease after reforming hydrogen
> from fossil fuel ?
> 3)What is the cost of this Fuel Cell powered EV compared to a simple
> battery powered EV ?
> 4)Does the public really think it will be any cheaper to buy or operate
> than any other of the $ 40 K+ EVs put out by the big Auto Manufacturers
> (RAV4, EV1, Ford Ranger, etc.) ?
> 5)What will be the new maintenance associated with an on board hydrogen
> reformer and fuel cells ??
> 6) Fuel cell powered public transportation such as city busses would be
> great and reduce pollution, but what will be the costs ?
> Menlo Park III,
> Bill
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the info but he isn't a Th!nk kind of guy. Wants something a
little sporty. Lawrence Rhodes...
Rhodes, Hertz still has the Think EV for rent in the city. It is only $250
a month. It would be a good thing to try out and see if he or she liked it.
$250 a month is a great deal. Unfortunatly they will only be around until
Aug. or Sept. Then they'll be taken out of their fleet and shipped back.
Good luck
Horn player in Sacramento
Carmine
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey everyone,
Just curious to know how things went at the CARB hearing the past two days.
I heard Ed Thorpe was able to make a statement at the hearing.
Thanks,
Chip Gribben
NEDRA Power of DC Racing Chairman/Webmaster
http://www.powerofdc.com
EVA/DC Webmaster
http://www.evadc.org
144-volt Ford Escort
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I can't believe this thread won't die. Gang, trust me, you can't educate
someone who refuses to learn.
May I suggest that we quit wasting bandwidth and let it drop? The folks
taking part are some of our most helpful and informed members. I for one
greatly value their contributions, and appreciate the time they put into
participating.
But I really think you're wasting your time and typing muscles on this
thread. The list would be better served if you used the bytes to help
someone else.
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 28 Mar 2003 at 8:28, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> Hold down the 'Alt' key and type 2 4 8 on the numeric keypad.
>
> This works in MS Windows and DOS but not in most other operating
> systems.
>
People use all kinds of hardware to read this list. That's why we ask
(require) everyone to post in plain text, not html. Using system-specific
or font-specific symbols almost guarantees that someone reading the list
will see something other than what you intend.
As a matter of courtesy, please keep the EVDL universally readable. Typing
degr C or degr F takes only a few moments, and is 100% portable across all
hardware.
Thanks.
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Peter,
You say "No power out equals no power out, efficiency drops to zero Just
because
a motor is spinning doesn't mean it is producing power. If the motor is
spinning with nothing connected to it is performing no 'work'. A
requirement of power is that it accomplishes some 'work'."
I say any motor spinning with a complete circuit produces power, even motors
with no permanent magnets produce power when they are spun due to what is
called residual magnetic fields, retained in their metal parts.
Some motors even rely on this residual magnetic field to work eg induction
motors.
Car alternators can also be spun to excite them without the need to put a
current in to get them started.
So we know for sure there is a generator inside every motor and we know it
takes power to run this generator, so are you saying here in laymans terms,
that the instant the closed circuit has more power going in than what is
going out, that the generator inside the motor instantly disappears and any
load it took to drive it will now be gone completely ?
I'm simply suggesting that the generated power is impeding the flow of this
external power and that the resulting shaft output is summed up as one minus
the other minus losses.
How about a simple experiment that anyone can do, one 6 volt battery and 1
12 volt battery and 1 12 volt light bulb and one 6 volt light bulb.
Connect the 6 volt batter negative terminal to the 12 volt battery negative
terminal.
Connect the 12 volt light bulb to the 12 volt battery and see how bright it
shines.
Now connect it to the 2 positive terminals of the batteries to create a
closed circuit.
Note that the bulb only lights half as bright
This is because the 6 volt battery is supplying counter pressure ( I better
not call it back emf) and is only allowing 6 volts to flow through the bulb,
because only half the voltage is flowing, the amperage is reduced because it
requires voltage before it can move in the circuit, so even though there is
plenty of amperage in the battery it can not flow to the bulb.
Now to prove this connect the 6 volt bulb to the 6 volt battery and see how
it shines then connect it between the 2 positives and it will shine the same
(in a perfect world) because it has its full compliment of volts and with
them comes its full compliment of amps.
In this analogy the 6 volt battery is the generator inside the motor
(electrical power out), which is represented by the 12 volt battery
(electrical power in) and the bulb represents power out to the shaft to do
work.
Clearly if you remove the 6 volt electrical resistance, the bulb shines
brighter, but in the motor you have removed a heat source, an electrical
resistance source, and a mechanical resistance source, so without adding a
single watt, the shaft output has increased, but it doesn't break any rules
or laws to do this and shaft output will not exceed electrical input.
If this motor suddenly becomes more than 100% efficient they will just use
COP to cover it as they did in the past, but who cares if it gets you 50%
further on a charge ?
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Would there be a short buildup from the inductance in the battery loop and
the controller?
Just round off the corner a bit on the rising edge.
Voltage to the battery does ramp up due to switching speed. In my
controllers the voltage switch time is 60 ns out of 66us, so about
1/1000 (1/500 total on and off) of the pwm time.
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com
Mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, Loric said all the wall mounted ones could be used outdoors, but I am
kind of nervous anyway. He was just like "yeah you can use it outdoors".
Any idea where I can find the model number just to make
absolutely-this-is-on-a-30-amp-circuit sort of sure?
Thanks!
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: "Melanie Savage" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 5:13 PM
Subject: RE: MagneChargers outdoors
> I would recommend calling the Edison EV Tech Center in Pomona to find
> out for sure. Please ask for either Naum Pinsky (Mgr., EV Battery
> Testing and Evaluation 626-302-3983) OR Loic Gaillac (Engineer
> 909-469-0270). If neither are available, you could probably ask for
> anyone in the tech center -- they would certainly have the right answers
> for you.
>
> Melanie Savage
> Vice President, Communications & Operations
> Advanced Zinc Energy Systems
> 2400 Lincoln Avenue
> Suite 157
> Altadena, CA 91001
> (626) 296-6453-phone
> (626) 296-6311-fax
> Finding strategic markets and applications for advanced technology
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Christopher Zach
> Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 1:42 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: MagneChargers outdoors
>
>
> Hi!
>
> I mounted my MagneCharger (Edison EV one) otuside on a pole. I have a
> serious question though:
>
> How do I know if it's rated for outdoor use? As normal, there is nothing
> on
> the box to say one way or another and although the fans at the bottom
> are
> covered by a grate, it just doesn't feel waterproof. However the wires
> coming out of it are in waterproof jackets.
>
> Thoughts? I'm going to leave a tarp over it for now, but I don't want to
> build a mini-shed if I can help it.
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, got the Magnecharger hooked up and running on it's own 30amp circuit.
Ran 12 gauge romex to it (25 foot run) but it feels a bit warm at full
blast, so I am going to rerun 10 gauge tomorrow (wow).
Performance: It charges the pack at 20 amps at 350 volts according to the
E-meter. *WOW*.
Consider that the onboard 110 volt one does it at 2.5 amps. This thing is
way way fast.
Wow. Now I just need to replace the pack and seed a few of these around MD
and I will be set to go :-)
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That article talks about getting hydrogen from water by electrolysis.
What is the amount of hydrogen that a reformer can extract from a
kilogram of the following fuels:
1) Gasoline
2) LNG (liguid natural gas)
3) Propane
4) Ethanol
5) Methanol
________________________________________________________________
Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
Only $9.95 per month!
Visit www.juno.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This other article also doesn't say how much hydrogen can be extracted
from a kilogram of the following fuels:
1) Gasoline
2) LNG (liguid natural gas)
3) Propane
4) Ethanol
5) Methanol
________________________________________________________________
Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
Only $9.95 per month!
Visit www.juno.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There are a large number of turbins arround Storm Lake, IA.
They even have a single blade which is bronzed and on display
in one of the parks, It's as long as a 18 wheeler, tracktor and trailer.
Quite an impressive testiment to the seriousness of the "windmills".
Anyway, 50 to 100 or so are located there between Cherokee, Storm
Lake, and Spencer Iowa which is the windiest place in Iowa. So sais
the Farmers Alminac. Nearly every time I see these turbins they are
all whirling pretty good, with the exception of the odd unit under
repair.
L8r
Ryan
amadare wrote:
Not a farm, but every time I've been past the turbine downtown Fort
Wayne, IN I have seen it turning pretty well. American Electric Power
(AEP) has one erected at their facilities. It is a 10Kw unit and is
talked about on their website. Again, who knows, maybe it is only for
show and it is not even feeding their grid ? :/
Robert
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Roden
(Akron OH USA)
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2003 3:56 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Wind turbines in Iowa?
On 26 Mar 2003 at 20:50, Lee Hart wrote:
There is a huge wind farm near Willmar MN. I've driven by it several
times, and noticed that almost all of them are idle every
single time.
I've seen a few wind farms in travels out west -- I don't
recall now exactly
where, but almost all of them were idle, too. Makes me
wonder if they were
built just to get a grant or tax benefit, then left to rot
unused. Another
possibility: after a few years, some bean counter deemed them
to costly to
maintain and ordered them shut down. Or the only people
trained to maintain
them were laid off.
OTOH, the ones I saw in the Canary Islands a few years ago
were working
hard.
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send
this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I
smite thee.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
on 3/28/03 3:00 PM, Lawrence Rhodes at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Thanks for the info but he isn't a Th!nk kind of guy. Wants something a
> little sporty. Lawrence Rhodes...
Lawrence, if he has a few extra dollars in his pocket then perhaps he could
try the tzero. I'm not sure if they are into production yet but if they are
that is a sporty car with a lot of zip but it costs.
Carmine
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've always thought that things like the the degree symbol, �, and other
standard ASCII characters were universally readable.
I'm curious if anyone reading this message can't read �F or �C in
this sentence and what you see if you can't.
Tom Shay
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: Making the degree sign (was Re: Motor, Surprise!)
> On 28 Mar 2003 at 8:28, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
> > Hold down the 'Alt' key and type 2 4 8 on the numeric keypad.
> >
> > This works in MS Windows and DOS but not in most other operating
> > systems.
> >
>
> People use all kinds of hardware to read this list. That's why we ask
> (require) everyone to post in plain text, not html. Using system-specific
> or font-specific symbols almost guarantees that someone reading the list
> will see something other than what you intend.
>
> As a matter of courtesy, please keep the EVDL universally readable.
Typing
> degr C or degr F takes only a few moments, and is 100% portable across all
> hardware.
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
> switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
> thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 06:54 PM 3/28/2003 -0500, Christopher Zach stated:
Well, got the Magnecharger hooked up and running on it's own 30amp circuit.
Ran 12 gauge romex to it (25 foot run) but it feels a bit warm at full
blast, so I am going to rerun 10 gauge tomorrow (wow).
Correct. 12 gauge is only rated for 20A. You definitely need 10 gauge for
30A.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Garry,
I think you're on to something here, there appears to be
a huge misunderstanding in the scientific community about the
proper operation of motors.
Perhaps you should look at some of Steve's hood mounted aerodynamically
powered generators and also the wheel mounted generators for EV's.
I think these motors might overcome the back EMF you are talking about.
http://tilleyfoundation.com/vehicle.htm
Follow this link for another brilliant pioneer in the development of
motors that follow your line of thinking.
I'm also looking for links to Ether powered hydrogen vehicles, I'm sure
this is an untapped energy source for our fuel cell vehicles.
Rod
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 10:26 AM
To: EV
Subject: Re: Motor, Surprise!
I love how you selectively read that parts that support your false
theory and totally ignore anything that contradicts it.
You yourself say " All motors generate as they spin" yet you think your
can build a motor that doesn't.
One final time because you keep ignoring this
YOU DON'T WASTE POWER OVERCOMING BACK EMF. BACK EMF IS NOT A LOSS.
You can reduce the back EMF a motor produces, that is easy. All you
have to do is lower it's efficiency. You can NOT remove Back EMF and
still have a motor.
Drawing huge amounts of current all the time does not improve
efficiency, it lowers it. One of the biggest loses in a motor is I2R
losses. If you draw a huge amount of current when producing very little
power you will have huge losses due to I2R.
> All motors generate as they spin and it even says there that because back
> EMF is so low at start up, resistors have to be used when starting to
reduce
> current draw and stop the motors coils from burning out until the output
> rises and then the resistors are taken off line.
>
> Funnily enough I was also saying that I had figured out a way to totally
> remove back EMF in a motor and "claimed" that having done so, the motor
> would have more power available for use at the shaft, rather than wasting
it
> to overcome the resistance of BACK EMF.
>
> That is, in my words, more of the input power will be available as shaft
> output power.
>
> Garry Stanley
>
> Cable.net.nz
>
>
>
--
EVDL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It does depend on the terminal emulator setup, only the lower 128 values are
at all close to being standard, once you go into the upper 128 characters
these are used in various ways to provide the additional characters required
by the language (umlaut's e grave's etc). By default I did get the degree
symbol but only because I have asked for the English multinational DEC-MCS
character set. If I use the ISO-Latin-2 I get a [!] , exclamation point
with a box around it. If I use the national instead of the multi-national
character set I get a zero ( 0F, 0C ) instead. Who knows what you get in
countries where the English alphabet is not the standard one.
I certainly vote to say within the basic ascii character set.
Lawrence Harris
-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas Shay [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: March 28, 2003 16:15
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Making the degree sign (was Re: Motor, Surprise!)
I've always thought that things like the the degree symbol, �, and other
standard ASCII characters were universally readable.
I'm curious if anyone reading this message can't read �F or �C in
this sentence and what you see if you can't.
Tom Shay
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: Making the degree sign (was Re: Motor, Surprise!)
> On 28 Mar 2003 at 8:28, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
> > Hold down the 'Alt' key and type 2 4 8 on the numeric keypad.
> >
> > This works in MS Windows and DOS but not in most other operating
> > systems.
> >
>
> People use all kinds of hardware to read this list. That's why we ask
> (require) everyone to post in plain text, not html. Using system-specific
> or font-specific symbols almost guarantees that someone reading the list
> will see something other than what you intend.
>
> As a matter of courtesy, please keep the EVDL universally readable.
Typing
> degr C or degr F takes only a few moments, and is 100% portable across all
> hardware.
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
> switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
> thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oh Blug. I ran the numbers through online calculators and found that 30amps
was ok on 12 gauge.
Ah, I'll bet I was looking at stranded, not solid cable. Stranded can handle
more current IIRC.
Whack me with a copy of the NEC. Drat.
Chris
(Off to Home Depot first thing tomorrow)
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 7:32 PM
Subject: Re: MagneCharge HO!
> At 06:54 PM 3/28/2003 -0500, Christopher Zach stated:
> >Well, got the Magnecharger hooked up and running on it's own 30amp
circuit.
> >Ran 12 gauge romex to it (25 foot run) but it feels a bit warm at full
> >blast, so I am going to rerun 10 gauge tomorrow (wow).
>
> Correct. 12 gauge is only rated for 20A. You definitely need 10 gauge
for
> 30A.
>
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
> http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Rod,
I think im onto something too, but I cant seem to get it across to the
scientific minds in terms that they will agree on cause I don't know them.
The Tilley stuff is unfortunately likely to be a scam, even his golf cart
that runs for 2 days without charge is easy to do, especially when you see
in the picture, its batteries are twice the size of normal deep cycle
batteries and probably have 3 times the amp hour rate at the 20 amp hour
rating level.
I'm not asking for money or anything, im just trying to get a bit of help in
taking a working devise from bench top testing, to a full sized unit that
can be compared, apples to apples, with an existing full sized unit driving
the same or a similar sized car.
I know it works cause ive built it, I think its better, but I don't know how
to prove it.
The science is 100% sound, at grass roots level, so everyone can understand
it, everyone except the very people I need help from to take it any further
:(
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
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--- Begin Message ---
Um Rod...I don't think Garry is bright enough to realize you are pulling
his leg.
Actually that's not fair. Garry is a bright guy, he just has such an
enormous ego that he can't accept the possibility that he might,
possibly, be wrong.
On Fri, 2003-03-28 at 17:35, Rod Hower wrote:
> Garry,
> I think you're on to something here, there appears to be
> a huge misunderstanding in the scientific community about the
> proper operation of motors.
> Perhaps you should look at some of Steve's hood mounted aerodynamically
> powered generators and also the wheel mounted generators for EV's.
> I think these motors might overcome the back EMF you are talking about.
> http://tilleyfoundation.com/vehicle.htm
> Follow this link for another brilliant pioneer in the development of
> motors that follow your line of thinking.
> I'm also looking for links to Ether powered hydrogen vehicles, I'm sure
> this is an untapped energy source for our fuel cell vehicles.
> Rod
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
> Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 10:26 AM
> To: EV
> Subject: Re: Motor, Surprise!
>
>
> I love how you selectively read that parts that support your false
> theory and totally ignore anything that contradicts it.
>
> You yourself say " All motors generate as they spin" yet you think your
> can build a motor that doesn't.
>
> One final time because you keep ignoring this
> YOU DON'T WASTE POWER OVERCOMING BACK EMF. BACK EMF IS NOT A LOSS.
>
> You can reduce the back EMF a motor produces, that is easy. All you
> have to do is lower it's efficiency. You can NOT remove Back EMF and
> still have a motor.
>
> Drawing huge amounts of current all the time does not improve
> efficiency, it lowers it. One of the biggest loses in a motor is I2R
> losses. If you draw a huge amount of current when producing very little
> power you will have huge losses due to I2R.
>
> > All motors generate as they spin and it even says there that because back
> > EMF is so low at start up, resistors have to be used when starting to
> reduce
> > current draw and stop the motors coils from burning out until the output
> > rises and then the resistors are taken off line.
> >
> > Funnily enough I was also saying that I had figured out a way to totally
> > remove back EMF in a motor and "claimed" that having done so, the motor
> > would have more power available for use at the shaft, rather than wasting
> it
> > to overcome the resistance of BACK EMF.
> >
> > That is, in my words, more of the input power will be available as shaft
> > output power.
> >
> > Garry Stanley
> >
> > Cable.net.nz
> >
> >
> >
> --
> EVDL
>
--
EVDL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 28 Mar 2003 at 16:14, Thomas Shay wrote:
> I've always thought that things like the the degree symbol, �, and other
> standard ASCII characters were universally readable.
No. This is not standard a ASCII character. It's part of the extended
character set originally developed for the IBM PC. This character set used
the additional 128 values available by setting the highest bit of a byte.
Like many aspects of the IBM PC, it was nonstandard.
AFAIK (someone correct me if I'm wrong) plain vanilla ASCII still defines
only the low 7 bits of the character byte. It doesn't yet include support
for high-bit characters or symbols, much less the international fonts that
use two bytes per character.
A quick and dirty guideline is, does it display correctly on a DEC VT-52
compatible video terminal?
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Very nice overview of the big picture regarding fuel cells and their use
in EV's.
It seems like perhaps it's a good time for a bumper sticker that would help
the public realize that the fuel cell vehicles that the industry and
administration
are attempting to promote as the next great thing are still EV's!
How about ...
Fuel Cell Vehicles are
Electric Vehicles too !
or
Can't make a Fuel Cell Vehicle without
making an Electric Vehicle first !
or
Sell the Electric Vehicles now,
Add the Fuel Cell to it Later !
or (probably wouldn't fit or be understood outside this list.)
Hydrogen Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle (best case):
(12% effecient) volts+water =60%> hydrogen+storage+delivery =50%>
hydrogen+HFC=water+heat+volts =40%> Electric traction motors.
- versus -
Hydrogen Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle (infrastructure-less):
(24% effecient) volts+water =60%> hydrogen+HFC=water+heat+volts =40%>
Electric traction motors.
- versus -
Battery Electric Vehicle (Almost already available):
(83% effecient) volts+grid =92%> battery packs =90%> Electric traction
motors.
L8r
Ryan
Darryl McMahon wrote:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Fuel cell powered car is nothing but an EV powered by taking hydrogen from
fossil fuel while on board the vehicle. 1)What is the percentage of energy
in hydrogen divided by the percentage of the fossil fuel it is being
removed from ? 2) How does the mile per gallon of fuel decrease after
reforming hydrogen from fossil fuel ? 3)What is the cost of this Fuel Cell
powered EV compared to a simple battery powered EV ? 4)Does the public
really think it will be any cheaper to buy or operate than any other of
the $ 40 K+ EVs put out by the big Auto Manufacturers (RAV4, EV1, Ford
Ranger, etc.) ? 5)What will be the new maintenance associated with an on
board hydrogen reformer and fuel cells ?? 6) Fuel cell powered public
transportation such as city busses would be great and reduce pollution,
but what will be the costs ? Menlo Park III, Bill
Regarding potential for hydrogen fuel cell EVs, please see:
http://www.econogics.com/ev/fcevreal.htm
Darryl McMahon
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--- Begin Message ---
Yeah apparently you are right David, but I'm an optimist. I thought if
I explained it to him just right he'd realize his mistakes.
Unfortunately it is clear that his ego won't allow him to admit he is
wrong, he still insist that his science is 100% correct and thinks that
the fact that he built a motor proves something.
I built my first motor when I was 9 years old. Fortunately, even at 9,
I didn't have such an enormous ego that I thought that building a low
efficiency motor proved my world view.
Since several people have now asked me to give up, I guess it's for the
best.
Damn, I guess I do have an ego. I really did think I could help him, it
bums me out that I failed.
On Fri, 2003-03-28 at 16:31, David Roden (Akron OH USA) wrote:
> I can't believe this thread won't die. Gang, trust me, you can't educate
> someone who refuses to learn.
>
> May I suggest that we quit wasting bandwidth and let it drop? The folks
> taking part are some of our most helpful and informed members. I for one
> greatly value their contributions, and appreciate the time they put into
> participating.
>
> But I really think you're wasting your time and typing muscles on this
> thread. The list would be better served if you used the bytes to help
> someone else.
>
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
> switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
> thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
--
EVDL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Guys,
I'm pleased that you can get a laugh out of this instead of getting all
worked up over it.
The following is an edited version of a post I made earlier which you all
seem to have conveniently ignored.
It is schoolboy, grass roots science and it all makes perfect sense, because
the science doesn't change its just the way we perceive it that allows us to
make advances.
" 2 magnets with their north (like) poles facing each other repel.
2 magnets with one north and one south pole facing each other attract.
This is the basis of an electric motor.
An electric motor can be made to operate by either pulling 2 magnetic fields
causing the rotor to turn or pushing 2 magnetic fields, there is a third way
of course and that is one magnet pulling a bit of metal, but I don't think
your motors are going to be built this way (yet).
When a magnet approaches a coil (that has a closed circuit) it generates a
current in the coil, the current in the coil causes a pole to form on the
coils ends.
A north pole magnet approaching a coil will generate a north pole ....every
time (Lenz).
A south pole magnet approaching a coil will generate a south pole .....
every time (Lenz)
A north pole magnet exiting a coil will generate a south pole .... every
time (Lenz)
A south pole magnet exiting a coil will generate a north pole ...every time
(Lenz)
Now call it what you will, but every time a magnetic field encounters
another magnetic field resistance occurs, this is just the way of the world
and it is extremely relevant to motors which use only electro magnets
because, in order for and electro magnet to produce the flux field, that is
causing the resistance, it MUST have a closed circuit.
I like to call what I have described above "magnetic resistance to
rotation"(You can call it a woggle if you like but the science doesn't
change), because each field created by the interacting magnetic fields is
working against the motor accelerating in its direction of rotation, and
while I have used magnets here to explain this to you, you have in your
motor double this, because each of your magnets is a coil and all coils
react like this to magnetic fields.
Ok now its time for thinking because this gets worse.
First lets choose a motor type and say that our motor is a "pull" motor.
We know, if we want to pull a magnet to a coil that we will need unlike
poles, a south to attract a north pole magnet, but I just told you that, in
the real world, when the north pole magnet gets near the coil, it makes a
north pole as a result of the current flow, so that means the current in the
coil is flowing in exactly the opposite direction of the current we need,
because we know that, in a coil, reversing the current changes the poles and
we know that the north pole magnet makes a north pole so we can deduce from
that also that the current is flowing the wrong way to make the south pole
we need to pull this magnet to our coil.
In order to make a south pole on this coil, to pull the north pole magnet,
my power must first overcome the generated current to change the pole of the
coil, but just because the coil has overcome the generated current with this
input current doesn't mean its not there any more, something about you cant
destroy energy I think, its still there and current that could otherwise be
put to work in the motor as shaft output is being used to overcome it.
Have I got anything wrong here, apart from assuming "current" where some are
going to insist only voltage is initially present ?
What really counts here is not woggles or resistance or reluctance ( look I
learned a new word and what it means, thanx Peter :) ), but "IS THE SCIENCE
SOUND" is what is in question here.
You know that the output power of the motor is what causes your motor to
draw less current as it approaches its peak speed, but surely you can see
that in order to produce this current, that is working to your advantage,
there is a cost, no free lunch, so if there is a cost and it can be removed
why isn't this better than what you have now.
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would just take this moment to remind everyone on the EVDL that most
modern web browsers can filter e-mails by sender;)
Seth
Rod Hower wrote:
>
> Garry,
> I think you're on to something here, there appears to be
> a huge misunderstanding in the scientific community about the
> proper operation of motors.
> Perhaps you should look at some of Steve's hood mounted aerodynamically
> powered generators and also the wheel mounted generators for EV's.
> I think these motors might overcome the back EMF you are talking about.
> http://tilleyfoundation.com/vehicle.htm
> Follow this link for another brilliant pioneer in the development of
> motors that follow your line of thinking.
> I'm also looking for links to Ether powered hydrogen vehicles, I'm sure
> this is an untapped energy source for our fuel cell vehicles.
> Rod
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Andre Blanchard wrote:
> That could actually work. Put mirrors in place of the blades in a
> turbine rotor. Use the fiber aim the light at the blades on the rotor.
It'e even simpler. There's a simple device that consists of a paddle
wheel in a sealed nearly-evacuated glass envelope. One side of each
paddle is black, and one side is white. It spins when light from the
sun, or even a nearby light bulb shines on it. I'm racking my brain to
remember what it's called; a helioscope?
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<Bows down>
"We're not worthy! We're not worthy!"
------------------------
60nsec! holey cow! I have to ask Lee Hart questions until he has carpal
tunnel syndrome just to switch off at less than 700nsec!
I am turning on/ off about 10X slower. It's my first buck converter, but still!
once again:
<Bows down>
"We're not worthy! We're not worthy!"
Seth
Otmar wrote:
>
> >Would there be a short buildup from the inductance in the battery loop and
> >the controller?
> >Just round off the corner a bit on the rising edge.
>
> Voltage to the battery does ramp up due to switching speed. In my
> controllers the voltage switch time is 60 ns out of 66us, so about
> 1/1000 (1/500 total on and off) of the pwm time.
>
> -Otmar-
> http://www.CafeElectric.com
> Mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In case you weren't follwing the thread, this wasn't meant as a slam on
Rod at all...
Seth
Seth wrote:
>
> I would just take this moment to remind everyone on the EVDL that most
> modern web browsers can filter e-mails by sender;)
>
> Seth
>
> Rod Hower wrote:
> >
> > Garry,
> > I think you're on to something here, there appears to be
> > a huge misunderstanding in the scientific community about the
> > proper operation of motors.
> > Perhaps you should look at some of Steve's hood mounted aerodynamically
> > powered generators and also the wheel mounted generators for EV's.
> > I think these motors might overcome the back EMF you are talking about.
> > http://tilleyfoundation.com/vehicle.htm
> > Follow this link for another brilliant pioneer in the development of
> > motors that follow your line of thinking.
> > I'm also looking for links to Ether powered hydrogen vehicles, I'm sure
> > this is an untapped energy source for our fuel cell vehicles.
> > Rod
> >
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
