EV Digest 2689
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) A new customer/visitor
by "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: motors with no magnetic fields.
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Motor, Surprise!- More research
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Motors With No Magnetic Fields
by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Motor, Surprise!- More research
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Motor, Surprise!- More research
by "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Motor, Surprise!- More research
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Motor, Surprise!- More research
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Motor, Surprise!- More research
by "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: That time of the year again...
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: EV digest 2688
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: motors with no magnetic fields
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Motor, Surprise!- More research
by "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Motor, Surprise!
by Joseph Vaughn-Perling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Making the degree sign (was Re: Motor, Surprise!)
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Motor, Surprise!- More research
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) Re: Making the degree sign (was Re: Motor, Surprise!)
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Motor, Surprise!- More research
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Making the degree sign (was Re: Motor, Surprise!)
by gail <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Buck converters (was Re: AC controllers)
by Martin Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: ampabout
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) EVLN(CARB delays decision)-long
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Ametek deals with a world wide customer base.
We had an engineer visit today from Israel today that
designs breathing apparatus for medical (and military) customers.
I drove everybody to lunch today in the TEVan (5 people).
I should mention that I have not replaced the shift cable
and I'm still using an 'short term fix' to drive in high gear.
The TEVan has low and high gear, each of which must see a switch
closure for the controller to operate. The toggle switch is located
in near the shifter and must be activated when mechanically switching
to high gear. When we pulled out of the Ametek parking lot the
Israel engineer was somewhat horrified to see this setup and asked
what was going on. I explained how this temporary fix worked.
He quickly replied "you would not make it past the first check-point,
soldiers would shoot to kill and ask questions later" (you can see the
setup on the link below). He was really intrigued by this and asked for
a picture to show his friends in Israel.
.....Glad I'm driving the EV in the US...........For now.
http://www.qsl.net/w8rnh/evswitch.jpg
This is a picture of the TEVan charging at work on 120VAC.
http://www.qsl.net/w8rnh/tevanch.jpg
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 28 Mar 2003 at 20:33, Lee Hart wrote:
> I'm racking my brain to
> remember what it's called; a helioscope?
It's a radiometer. Here's one:
http://www.scientificsonline.com/ec/Products/Display.cfm?CategoryID=222285
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Peter,
Its not really an ego problem but im human and I probably have one.
The problem is simply I have built a motor that doesn't generate any power,
so while you are trying to tell me that your math's says its impossible, I
know for a fact that is isn't.
You cant conceive the possibility let alone build the motor so you assume
from that I cant either.
I cant expect you to believe it and im not asking you to, im simply saying
"hey I can do this and it may or may not be a benefit to electric vehicles,
all I need to do is figure out how to incorporate it in a standard motor".
We all think differently, Rod suggests looking up "Steve's hood mounted
aerodynamically powered generators " and thinks its pretty funny, but
forgets there are people out there who are going to go looking and maybe
find something like that and waste time on it.
You read this and have a laugh while im thinking ... a car has aerodynamic
drag as it moves through the air, this creates high and low pressure spots
on the car and lots of little currents around the car, now because the
currents are already there and the drag is already paid for, in power input
to drive the car, could you not do exactly this with a small generator,
without adding more drag as long as it didn't protrude out of the current
and cause more drag ?
Could it not also be conceivable that if you were to put a tube from the
high pressure zone to the low pressure zone that one would cancel out the
other and reduce drag and then if you put a small generator in the tube,
wouldn't this power be "free" in the sense that it too has already been paid
for in the cost of propelling the car.
Funny .... yes, Practical ...maybe not, Possible ... defiantly.
A 1 percent improvement in range probably isn't worth much ...a bit like
those discussions about drawing from the pack to provide lighting, stereo
etc, but add 50 of them together and suddenly something that didn't count a
minute ago is worth an extra mile and we all want "to go the extra mile
here" don't we.
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I believe this device is called a "radiometer".
J. Marvin Campbell
Culver City, CA
on 3/28/03 7:00 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
> It'e even simpler. There's a simple device that consists of a paddle
> wheel in a sealed nearly-evacuated glass envelope. One side of each
> paddle is black, and one side is white. It spins when light from the
> sun, or even a nearby light bulb shines on it. I'm racking my brain to
> remember what it's called; a helioscope?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rod Hower wrote:
-----------------------------
Garry,
I think you're on to something here, there appears to be
a huge misunderstanding in the scientific community about the
proper operation of motors.
Perhaps you should look at some of Steve's hood mounted aerodynamically
powered generators and also the wheel mounted generators for EV's.
I think these motors might overcome the back EMF you are talking about.
http://tilleyfoundation.com/vehicle.htm
Follow this link for another brilliant pioneer in the development of
motors that follow your line of thinking.
I'm also looking for links to Ether powered hydrogen vehicles, I'm sure
this is an untapped energy source for our fuel cell vehicles.
Rod
-----------------------------
Garry Stanley replied:
---------------------------------
Hi Rod,
I think im onto something too, but I cant seem to get it across to the
scientific minds in terms that they will agree on cause I don't know them.
-----------------------------------
Jeez Louise! Gimme a break!
Let's dust off this old relic for a good laugh:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/fringengineer.html
If Garry would actually like to begin to learn something this may be a good
place to start:
http://www.amasci.com/ele-edu.html
Roy LeMeur Seattle WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gary,
All jokes aside, I think you have a very good chance of
being an effect US politician.
Rod
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of garry
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 10:20 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Motor, Surprise!- More research
Hi Peter,
Its not really an ego problem but im human and I probably have one.
The problem is simply I have built a motor that doesn't generate any power,
so while you are trying to tell me that your math's says its impossible, I
know for a fact that is isn't.
You cant conceive the possibility let alone build the motor so you assume
from that I cant either.
I cant expect you to believe it and im not asking you to, im simply saying
"hey I can do this and it may or may not be a benefit to electric vehicles,
all I need to do is figure out how to incorporate it in a standard motor".
We all think differently, Rod suggests looking up "Steve's hood mounted
aerodynamically powered generators " and thinks its pretty funny, but
forgets there are people out there who are going to go looking and maybe
find something like that and waste time on it.
You read this and have a laugh while im thinking ... a car has aerodynamic
drag as it moves through the air, this creates high and low pressure spots
on the car and lots of little currents around the car, now because the
currents are already there and the drag is already paid for, in power input
to drive the car, could you not do exactly this with a small generator,
without adding more drag as long as it didn't protrude out of the current
and cause more drag ?
Could it not also be conceivable that if you were to put a tube from the
high pressure zone to the low pressure zone that one would cancel out the
other and reduce drag and then if you put a small generator in the tube,
wouldn't this power be "free" in the sense that it too has already been paid
for in the cost of propelling the car.
Funny .... yes, Practical ...maybe not, Possible ... defiantly.
A 1 percent improvement in range probably isn't worth much ...a bit like
those discussions about drawing from the pack to provide lighting, stereo
etc, but add 50 of them together and suddenly something that didn't count a
minute ago is worth an extra mile and we all want "to go the extra mile
here" don't we.
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> An electric motor can be made to operate by either pulling 2 magnetic fields
> causing the rotor to turn or pushing 2 magnetic fields, there is a third way
> of course and that is one magnet pulling a bit of metal, but I don't think
> your motors are going to be built this way (yet).
Again you demonstrate your incredible lack of knowledge.
The third method is used in what is called a reluctance motor. The EMB
Lectra uses this kind of motor.
>
> When a magnet approaches a coil (that has a closed circuit) it generates a
> current in the coil, the current in the coil causes a pole to form on the
> coils ends.
>
> A north pole magnet approaching a coil will generate a north pole ....every
> time (Lenz).
And since it is impossible to create one pole without the other you also
get a south pole, every time.
And now I'm going to do like the list has asked me and not try to
correct any more of your mistakes.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 2003-03-28 at 20:19, garry wrote:
> Hi Peter,
>
> Its not really an ego problem but im human and I probably have one.
>
> The problem is simply I have built a motor that doesn't generate any power,
> so while you are trying to tell me that your math's says its impossible, I
> know for a fact that is isn't.
>
What do you think guys? Should I tell Garry that building a motor that
is a piss poor generator only proves that he has built a low efficiency
motor?
Naw you're right. He wouldn't believe me because his calibrated finger
tells him that it's a high efficiency motor, and he won't believe
anything that contradicts him.
Damn it Pete, give it up.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry, the back EMF got me, that should have been 'effective' politician
(oxymoron).
OK, last post on this, it was fun.... back to EV's.
Rod
Gary,
All jokes aside, I think you have a very good chance of
being an effect US politician.
Rod
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of garry
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 10:20 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Motor, Surprise!- More research
Hi Peter,
Its not really an ego problem but im human and I probably have one.
The problem is simply I have built a motor that doesn't generate any power,
so while you are trying to tell me that your math's says its impossible, I
know for a fact that is isn't.
You cant conceive the possibility let alone build the motor so you assume
from that I cant either.
I cant expect you to believe it and im not asking you to, im simply saying
"hey I can do this and it may or may not be a benefit to electric vehicles,
all I need to do is figure out how to incorporate it in a standard motor".
We all think differently, Rod suggests looking up "Steve's hood mounted
aerodynamically powered generators " and thinks its pretty funny, but
forgets there are people out there who are going to go looking and maybe
find something like that and waste time on it.
You read this and have a laugh while im thinking ... a car has aerodynamic
drag as it moves through the air, this creates high and low pressure spots
on the car and lots of little currents around the car, now because the
currents are already there and the drag is already paid for, in power input
to drive the car, could you not do exactly this with a small generator,
without adding more drag as long as it didn't protrude out of the current
and cause more drag ?
Could it not also be conceivable that if you were to put a tube from the
high pressure zone to the low pressure zone that one would cancel out the
other and reduce drag and then if you put a small generator in the tube,
wouldn't this power be "free" in the sense that it too has already been paid
for in the cost of propelling the car.
Funny .... yes, Practical ...maybe not, Possible ... defiantly.
A 1 percent improvement in range probably isn't worth much ...a bit like
those discussions about drawing from the pack to provide lighting, stereo
etc, but add 50 of them together and suddenly something that didn't count a
minute ago is worth an extra mile and we all want "to go the extra mile
here" don't we.
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'll keep an eye out as I'm stripping cord and what not off applinances left
by the side of the road for the UL mark :-)
Steve Clunn
>Don't just look for a UL mark. Look for a mark by a nationally recognized
>test laboratory (NRTL).
...
> Good point! UL isn't the only testing laboratory. They have maybe 90% of
> the consumer business, but you'll also occasionally see ETL listings on
> consumer products.
>
> There are also international standards. Virtually every contry in the
> world has a national testing organization (except the USA). So the CE
> (Europe) and CSA (Canada) listing marks are also common on US products.
>
> Eric Penne wrote:
>
> > Don't just look for a UL mark. Look for a mark by a nationally
> > recognized test laboratory (NRTL). They do the same work as UL,
> > same tests, same results, and sometimes a higher quality.
> > Below is a list of OSHA NRTL: [snip]
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ele
> Subject: MagneCharge HO!
> Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 18:54:13 -0500
> From: "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> Well, got the Magnecharger hooked up and running on it's own 30amp circuit.
> Ran 12 gauge romex to it (25 foot run) but it feels a bit warm at full
> blast, so I am going to rerun 10 gauge tomorrow (wow).
>
> Performance: It charges the pack at 20 amps at 350 volts according to the
> E-meter. *WOW*.
>
> Consider that the onboard 110 volt one does it at 2.5 amps. This thing is
> way way fast.
>
> Wow. Now I just need to replace the pack and seed a few of these around MD
> and I will be set to go :-)
>
>
I HATE digest mode.
Chris....
Go to # 8 Gage PLEASE!!!, NEVER do that 30 amps of 240 through #12
again. BAD EVer.
#12 gage is good for 20 amps
#10 25 to 30
#8 30 to 40.
Umm that's 7000 watts from a 6.6 Kw charger... through a #12 gage 25
foot run. Ummm this sounds REALLY fishy since at 30 amp you are having
about 30 volts of drop.
Your charger is eating 208 weather you know it or not.
I use #10 for not more than 30 amps. At 30 amps DC the output cable
will get a bit warm if you do it for about a hour.
welcome to the over 5Kw club... Evs start to get real up here.
Gotta get PFC50 #1 ready for Sparrow service... 12Kw charging is like
light speed. Welll ok 10.9 Kw at 190 VDC ouput that is. I am gonna load
test Rod's charge port at EVparts.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I had one of those when I was a kid. It was a Radiometer. I remember mine
had a black airplane and a white airplane. It used thermodynamics to spin
the blades in the bulb or something to that effect.
>
> Andre Blanchard wrote:
>> That could actually work. Put mirrors in place of the blades in a
>> turbine rotor. Use the fiber aim the light at the blades on the rotor.
>
> It'e even simpler. There's a simple device that consists of a paddle
> wheel in a sealed nearly-evacuated glass envelope. One side of each
> paddle is black, and one side is white. It spins when light from the
> sun, or even a nearby light bulb shines on it. I'm racking my brain to
> remember what it's called; a helioscope?
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
Chip Gribben
NEDRA Power of DC Racing Chairman/Webmaster
http://www.powerofdc.com
EVA/DC Webmaster
http://www.evadc.org
144-volt Ford Escort
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Let me try to help Garry and others understand a bit about what
goes on in a motor or generator.
To keep things simple let's consider a dc permanent-magnet
machine. Let's for the time being forget about whether it's
a motor or a generator and just call it a machine. Let's also
suppose that a battery is available of adequate size to drive
the machine as a motor or to accept current from the machine
when operates as a generator.
Now let's spin the machine by any convenient means. I think
we all agree that voltage would be induced in the machine
windings proportional to speed. Now let's adjust the speed
to make the machine's voltage exactly match the battery's
voltage, be sure the polarities match and connect the machine
to the battery. Nothing much will happen. No current will flow
between the machine and the battery because the matched voltages
oppose each other. The machine isn't operating as either a motor
or a generator. The important idea here is the matched voltages
which prevent current flow in either direction.
Now suppose that the machine is speeded up a little so that it's
generated voltage rises above the battery voltage. Now current
will flow between the machine and the battery which will produce
torque to resist the increase in in speed and charge the battery.
This of course is what we call generator action.
Now consider what happens if we try to slow the motor down.
Now current will flow from the battery to the machine to resist
the slowing of the machine. This is motor action. The machine's
generated voltage interacts with battery voltage to automatically
draw the current needed to keep the machine from either stalling
or overspeeding. In a motor this generated voltage is often
called back emf.
It should be evident that the machine couldn't operate as either a
motor or a generator without its internal generated voltage. With
no generated voltage to oppose current from the battery the machine
would be a short circuit on the battery.
Any motor or generator without internal generated voltage operates
on some principle(s) quite different from conventional motors and
generators.
Tom Shay
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> The list would be better served if you used the bytes to help
> someone else.
I'm learning too.
Thank you in advance to the next person who stimulates such depth. Once
in a while its good to get the theoretical as well as the practical.
--
____
__/o|__\~ ~ ~
`@ [EMAIL PROTECTED](=
http://www.SoCalEV.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I sure would like to do that. How did you do that? Lawrence Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 4:14 PM
Subject: Re: Making the degree sign (was Re: Motor, Surprise!)
> I've always thought that things like the the degree symbol, �, and other
> standard ASCII characters were universally readable.
> I'm curious if anyone reading this message can't read �F or �C in
> this sentence and what you see if you can't.
>
> Tom Shay
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 3:31 PM
> Subject: Re: Making the degree sign (was Re: Motor, Surprise!)
>
>
> > On 28 Mar 2003 at 8:28, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> >
> > > Hold down the 'Alt' key and type 2 4 8 on the numeric keypad.
> > >
> > > This works in MS Windows and DOS but not in most other operating
> > > systems.
> > >
> >
> > People use all kinds of hardware to read this list. That's why we ask
> > (require) everyone to post in plain text, not html. Using
system-specific
> > or font-specific symbols almost guarantees that someone reading the list
> > will see something other than what you intend.
> >
> > As a matter of courtesy, please keep the EVDL universally readable.
> Typing
> > degr C or degr F takes only a few moments, and is 100% portable across
all
> > hardware.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
> > switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> > 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> > 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> > 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> > 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
> > thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 29/03/03 01:09:52 GMT Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
> Um Rod...I don't think Garry is bright enough to realize you are pulling
> his leg.
He must think irony, is like brassy, or coppery.
Paul Compton
BVS technical officer www.bvs.org.uk
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Doesn't seem to work. +8824n824882888�4284�7_27_�82828228882888722782.
Well once. I tried all kind of combinations. Just got it by accident. I
don't know how I did it. I must be missing something. Well it is there. It
must work a little different on my keyboard. Got it once but can't recreate
it. Lawrence i Tried a few more time and got 1/4 in one character (see
end).
Rhodes......�8828J2242424228224_482242842488448248248248824248288284TT828248
482842848$8248248248428484282424828428428428824448242488242842284-8482482482
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
626264422888668.8�28842864828268268826828264486�:RR:>8.:WR84682282R�88864668
*826__6129219199988288H288828288288T848484T244224242446626268462D26826888627
828686822822826862826827687828668128182822828828282824
2482824824882424828828228824828824 �
-----
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 4:35 PM
Subject: RE: Motor, Surprise!- More research
> Garry,
> I think you're on to something here, there appears to be
> a huge misunderstanding in the scientific community about the
> proper operation of motors.
> Perhaps you should look at some of Steve's hood mounted aerodynamically
> powered generators and also the wheel mounted generators for EV's.
> I think these motors might overcome the back EMF you are talking about.
Yes Garry the scientific community laughed at me to . They said "how can a
silly HO (hood ornament ) sell EV's" "how can it stop the war" . And now
look where we are all because they wouldn't listen. If they would have
dropped what ever they were doing and coooonsintrated on making a
convincineing HO then EV's would be everywhere today . I must take some of
the blame as I know I could have done more. Like you I have not given up on
the HO , there were some on the list that saw it's power.
I would recommend that you put 90% of your time and thinking into getting
your EV on the road , and 10% making a small motor/generator (your design)
that could be mounted on the hood. Once your on the road with your EV
you'll find that lots of people will want to see it and talk to you about
it. You may not want to draw so much attention in which case you can keep
your overunity HO in the truck . If you like being mobed by people then
just pull it out.
Here is what I think is really upsetting to allot of people on the list ,
You are going on and on trying to make a better fire extinguisher instead of
using one of the standard fire extinguisher's ( a fire extinguisher is
another word of a EV motor) that is known to work. We are trying to put out
this gas fire and could use your help . The fire extinguisher's that we're
using work very well (80% or better) but with so few in use they appear not
to be putting out the fire. With so few on the line and people wineing
about how much they cost seeing someone trying to improve on the workings of
one instead of using what we have to fight this gas fire is upsetting. Why
do these people work so hard trying to get you and others to "give a squirt"
,why try ,?
Because they believe that life and living on this planet is worth it. There
are people that are dieing right now , and it didn't have to come to this .
We don't need better EV's just better people , that care enough to say I'll
try it , give me that fire extinguisher and lets get this gas fire under
control.
Here are a number of way I have tried to do this and why they haven't worked
so well ,Garry please help me improve on them
1 Offer to help anyone build there EV if they will pay for the parts.
problems
a. Wife upset as no money coming in and time being spent on other people
instead of her.
b. People don't seem to appreciate it and leave car parts all over the
yard,shop a mess, and in to much a hurry to do good work .
c. when job is done I'm left feeling like "what am I nut's I could have been
working on my EV"
2. Build one and sell it
a. The EVPM (EV profit margin ) is at about .3 so it cost about 6k to do
this .
b. Wife has put her foot down , 3 is enough.
3 Sell raffle tickets to pay for the parts ect. then give the car away .
a This gives an even lower EVPH then .3
b. People think your trying to pull a scam
4 Rent the finished EV and take the rental fee off the price of the car so
at some point the price will be low enough and the car/truck will sell
a. can't find some one to rent it.
b. wife and everybody else thinks your nuts for letting somebody drive off
with your truck.
c. Feeling they may be right.
5 Make a HO that generates EV interest .
a. takes to much time
b. people are sure your nut's
6 write a post on the EVDL that makes all the people thinking about doing
something do something
a takes all night
b don't know how to spell
I'm sure to somebody who just lost a son/husband/father to the war for oil
this will seen like poor excuses.
Steve Clunn
maybe tommorow I'll do somthing
> http://tilleyfoundation.com/vehicle.htm
> Follow this link for another brilliant pioneer in the development of
> motors that follow your line of thinking.
> I'm also looking for links to Ether powered hydrogen vehicles, I'm sure
> this is an untapped energy source for our fuel cell vehicles.
> Rod
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
> Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 10:26 AM
> To: EV
> Subject: Re: Motor, Surprise!
>
>
> I love how you selectively read that parts that support your false
> theory and totally ignore anything that contradicts it.
>
> You yourself say " All motors generate as they spin" yet you think your
> can build a motor that doesn't.
>
> One final time because you keep ignoring this
> YOU DON'T WASTE POWER OVERCOMING BACK EMF. BACK EMF IS NOT A LOSS.
>
> You can reduce the back EMF a motor produces, that is easy. All you
> have to do is lower it's efficiency. You can NOT remove Back EMF and
> still have a motor.
>
> Drawing huge amounts of current all the time does not improve
> efficiency, it lowers it. One of the biggest loses in a motor is I2R
> losses. If you draw a huge amount of current when producing very little
> power you will have huge losses due to I2R.
>
> > All motors generate as they spin and it even says there that because
back
> > EMF is so low at start up, resistors have to be used when starting to
> reduce
> > current draw and stop the motors coils from burning out until the output
> > rises and then the resistors are taken off line.
> >
> > Funnily enough I was also saying that I had figured out a way to totally
> > remove back EMF in a motor and "claimed" that having done so, the motor
> > would have more power available for use at the shaft, rather than
wasting
> it
> > to overcome the resistance of BACK EMF.
> >
> > That is, in my words, more of the input power will be available as shaft
> > output power.
> >
> > Garry Stanley
> >
> > Cable.net.nz
> >
> >
> >
> --
> EVDL
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I see 8F and 8C as in number 8 before the F and C. I am logged into
a unix system, from a Mac, using pine for my mail.
Gail
On Fri, 28 Mar 2003, Thomas Shay wrote:
> I've always thought that things like the the degree symbol, �, and other
> standard ASCII characters were universally readable.
> I'm curious if anyone reading this message can't read �F or �C in
> this sentence and what you see if you can't.
>
> Tom Shay
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
"Thinking about this reminds me about my tube bending teacher, he had
a couple of these old motors in his shop (little ones, less than
1HP). According to him there were areas in NYC that received DC
instead of AC until after WW2 (not like I'm old enuf to know!)"
My sister & girlfriend (current wife) graduated in '62 as RNs from the
same nursing school (hospital) as my grandmother a few blocks south of
Columbia College in New York City. My sister had to have a DC capable
radio to listen endlessly to PBS and WQXR. (I'm old enough to know)
______________________________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
A letter sent to me with a copy of an employment
background check report, had knocked the wind out of
my sails.
If I read it correctly, I was a felonious criminal.
It looked like, the over zealous San Bruno police officer
that had towed my EV away a year ago, because he thought
my EV would cause a fire when plugged in at Tanforan
Shopping center, and wanted to charge me with a felony
for 15 cents worth of Electricity that I did not have
'written' permission for, had put a 'black eye' on my
record. I spent this week scurrying around trying to
resolve this.
After spending two hours today, to pay to get an
appointment to come back in two weeks so that I
could see what was on the books, I headed back North
towards home.
My four new batteries are breaking in nicely and I can
already see the difference. The pack voltage is normal,
the finishing charge is taking the normal time now, and
the amount of current needed to sustain my highway speed
is less. Its nice to have a happy pack again.
...
I stopped off at Otmar's EV charging spot reading -70 ah
down. A half hour later I was unplugging as the charge
current had tapered and I had put enough amps into my
pack to have a reading of -20ahs.
As I was coiling the 10-3 cords with the 14-50's on
them, an older couple passing by asked, "Is that an
all Electric, or ..." (looking puzzeled).
I said, "Yes, its Electric, and no its not a hybrid.
Hybrids use fuel like a gas car" (those were words they
could understand).
The husband (who looked like an older Fred Mertz),
was dwelling on the two 12V PV panels on my hood.
I made sure they knew that those only charged my
12V battery, not the ones I drive with.
He was more excited about how he had put a PV panel
on his camper van to keep his deep-cycle topped off
(I did not go into detail about the differences
between his batteries and PVs and mine, as their
body language told me they were not interested as
'they' knew all about them).
They both were excited about the 'vodka battery'
(as if they were current on new technologies, when
really it was what the media had fed them). I gently
informed them that there are small 'fuel cells' out
there that use fuel but manufacturers are not using
'closed CO2 loop' renewable sources for either the
methanol or ethanol.
The wife said, "They will" (meaning in the future).
I smirked, and said "When? ..."
She sighed (like, you-are-right) and said, "maybe
after the war". The conversation disintegrated into
their unhappiness in paying for it and so on.
...
I headed up El Camino to try to corner the Home Depot
rep I had been courting to give me a job. Traffic was
tight as it was 5pm, that actually was an advantage as
if the traffic were light, SUVs would get mad at me
for not racing to the next red light each time.
I caught up the HR rep expecting to be beaten up by
the background check.
He said, 'no ... you're clean, and I have a job for you'.
Well needless to say, I took the job no matter what it
was. After a year and a half of looking (and whining
to the List), I would do anything just to be part of the
work force again (its hard for an ex-hp'r not to work).
My orientation will begin this Monday on the other side
of the bay at their San Leandro store. It just so happens
that there is an EV charging spot at a Costco within
walking distance. I have sent an email to my East Bay
EV contact to find out if that charging spot has a
working AVCON (so I can use my PFC-50 charger).
So, Monday through Wednesday I will be slogging through
early morning commute traffic across the Hwy 92 bridge,
to and from my work orientation class.
>From Thursday on, I will be working at my local store
(5 mi from home). But sacrifices will have to be made.
I will be working my 8 hours each day in a window from
6am to 10pm. So one day I might be 6am-3pm, the next
2pm-10pm, and 10am-7pm on another. I will always work
weekends, so EAA meetings are out. I have to give three
weeks notice to get time off. So attending EVents where
they ask me to show my EV is out too.
Employment here is really hard to get, and I am happy
to take what I can get (even at 30% of what I was making
before). Let hope I can keep this job so I can keep my
EV on the road :-)
=====
' ____
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. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
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--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(CARB delays decision)-long
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.ktvu.com/news/2072827/detail.html
State Officials Stop Short Of Scrapping Emissions Rules
POSTED: 4:32 p.m. PST March 28, 2003
SACRAMENTO, Calif. -- California air regulators stopped
short Friday of scrapping emissions rules aimed at forcing
automakers to mass produce a pollution-free car this decade,
but the chief air quality official conceded the end of that
goal is near.
The Air Resources Board could not reach a decision on how to
revamp the strict quota it set 13 years ago for clean cars
after witnessing the promise of the battery-powered electric
car.
Chairman Alan Lloyd said the board will most likely vote
next month to remove its ambitious mandate in favor of small
numbers of fuel cell vehicles in the next five years and
thousands of low-polluting gas cars and gas-electric hybrids
that emerged since the state passed its zero emission
vehicle rule in 1990.
"While we didn't get the holy grail of battery-electric
vehicles we wanted, we've got many more of these near-zero
emission vehicles," Lloyd said after the meeting. "We'll
continue that push toward zero."
The board staff proposed changing its first-in-the-nation
regulation to reflect the commercial failure of the
battery-powered car and more promising technologies that
have emerged.
While California still is home to the nation's worst smog,
the air has improved significantly since the board passed
the rule, largely a result in improved emission controls.
For example, more than 100 air advisories were issued in the
Los Angeles air basin in the early 1990s compared with fewer
than 18 over the past three years.
Over the years, the board has consistently eroded the zero
emission rule in the face of industry opposition. The board
was prompted to rewrite the regulation after a federal judge
in Fresno sided with car makers and put the quota on hold.
As proposed, the rule would almost surely guarantee the
death of the electric vehicle, the quiet, clean car that led
the state to pass the revolutionary rule that would have
required 10 percent of cars sold in the state this year to
be pollution-free.
Massachusetts and New York have passed similar regulations.
Despite scores of enthusiastic drivers, the auto industry
declared the experiment a flop because the battery-powered
car was expensive and didn't go far between lengthy
charges.
Supporters of the vehicles, however, suggested automakers
never made earnest efforts to improve the technology or
market the cars.
"Everyone loves them," said one driver, Doug Korthof. "When
I drive in the city of Los Angeles, the gang members came
over to me. Were they going to shoot me? No. They said,
'Where can I get that?"'
The short answer is nowhere. The vehicles are no longer sold
and some companies are refusing to extend leases, leading
some critics to suggest a similar scenario if the fuel cell,
which runs on electricity from a chemical reaction between
oxygen and hydrogen, fails to meet its promise.
Automakers, who are leery of any regulation, were neutral on
the proposal -- happy to be done with the battery-powered
car but opposed to any further quotas. They want
technological changes to be driven by market demand and
competition.
Most speakers at the two-day hearing, however, opposed the
proposed revisions and only a few spoke in favor of it.
Among the chief concerns was the fact the proposal would
only force automakers to build 250 fuel cell vehicles in the
next five years and not force them to make any zero emission
cars after 2009.
"We just have to have commitments for zero after 2008," said
V. John White, a lobbyist for the Sierra Club. "Be sure
there are numbers there or this mandate dies today."
The board was undecided on what those numbers should be and
whether automakers could substitute other low-polluting
vehicles in their place. Lloyd said the board would set
quotas for later years and would also explore at its April
24 meeting whether it could encourage the use of
battery-powered cars.
As Jerry Pohorsky loaded his electric car following the
meeting, he said he was disappointed the vote was delayed,
but encouraged the board might offer incentives for
carmakers to continue battery car programs.
Then he headed for Santa Clara County -- a 120-mile drive
that will force him to stop for an hour or two to recharge
along the way.
Copyright 2003 by The Associated Press. All rights reserved.
===
AP World - General News
California delays rewriting toughest emissions rule among
U.S. states Fri Mar 28,7:48 PM ET By BRIAN MELLEY, AP Writer
SACRAMENTO, California - Rules that effectively require
electric-car production in California stayed on the books
after air regulators deadlocked over how to switch their
focus to fuel-cell vehicles that are years away from rolling
off the assembly line.
The state Air Resources Board could not reach a decision
Friday on changing its zero emissions vehicle rule after
members of the public and many interest groups urged it not
to abandon the strict quota for clean cars it set 13 years
ago. The board planned to revisit the issue next month.
The board has consistently eroded the rule it passed in
1990, which would have required 10 percent of cars sold in
the state this year to be pollution-free. The first-in-the
nation regulation has helped inspire cleaner technologies
including hybrid gas-electric vehicles and cleaner
gas-burning cars.
The latest proposed revision was prompted after a federal
judge in Fresno sided with Detroit car makers and put the
quota on hold last year.
The state would continue to push for cleaner technologies
under the proposed rule, and would require automakers to put
250 nonpolluting fuel cell vehicles on the road in the next
five years.
Fuel cell vehicles are powered by energy released when
oxygen and hydrogen combine to make water. Technical issues
such as how to produce and store the hydrogen mean such
vehicles are by all accounts several years away from being
mass produced.
Many automakers have embraced fuel cell vehicles, but the
industry has long fought the zero emissions standard because
it effectively requires them to produce thousands of
electric cars, which unlike hybrids have limited range and
require heavy, expensive batteries.
The industry contends electric cars are a commercial flop,
although drivers of the vehicles suggest automakers never
made an earnest effort to improve or market them.
One of environmentalists' chief concerns with the proposed
rule was that it would not force automakers to build any
zero emission cars after 2009.
Friday, Mar 28, 2003 State State
===
Posted on Fri, Mar. 28, 2003 story:PUB_DESC
Decision due on easing emission requirements
By ANDREW LaMAR Contra Costa Times
SACRAMENTO - A plan to scale back California's aggressive
requirements for automakers to build and sell electric
vehicles drew broad opposition at a public hearing Thursday,
as air regulators began discussing how to overhaul the
state's novel zero-emission vehicle program.
The California Air Resources Board took public comment
through the afternoon and early evening and is expected to
make a decision today. Of the 78 people who signed up to
address the board, 49 indicated they disapprove of the plan
and five said they favor it.
Under the proposed new rules, the state would allow car
manufacturers to earn credits for producing hybrid
gasoline-electric vehicles, which have low emissions,
instead of battery-powered cars that are emission free.
Also, it would encourage the development of fuel-cell
vehicles, which generally run on hydrogen.
The program, when originally adopted in 1990, called for 10
percent of all new vehicles sold in the state in 2003 to
have zero emissions, essentially meaning they would be
electric. But as battery technology failed to advance as
anticipated, air regulators lowered the mandate.
In 2001, the Air Resources Board dropped the threshold to 2
percent of all vehicles sold in the state in 2003, or about
22,000 automobiles. The new rules would do away with that as
well, suspend the program until 2005 and not establish a new
target until 2009.
Several automakers have dropped their electric car programs
after watching sales of initial models fall short in the
past few years. Car manufacturers said the limited range and
higher prices of electric vehicles proved to be big barriers
to consumer acceptance.
''Battery cost and performance have not evolved as hoped,''
said David Hermance of Toyota.
California's push, though, produced results and should be
continued, argued David Freeman, the chairman of the state's
public power authority who spoke as a private citizen.
Freeman prompted applause from many watching when he told
the board it had spent too much time with automakers.
''The irony of it is you have electric cars that are out on
the road that work,'' Freeman said. The board's new rules
''add up to punting when you're on the one-yard line.''
Some board members signaled their reluctance to endorse the
new rules. Mark DeSaulnier, a Contra Costa County supervisor
who sits on the Air Resources Board, said he believes the
board will set the requirements higher than currently
proposed.
''I, for one, am not ready to close the door on that
technology,'' board member Dorene D'Adamo said of electric
vehicles.
A short while later, board member Matthew McKinnon added:
''I, too, worry we are giving up on (battery electric
vehicles) too early.''
KRT CALIFORNIA is a premium service of Knight Ridder/Tribune
(c) 2003, Contra Costa Times (Walnut Creek, Calif.). Visit
the Contra Costa Times on the Web at http://www.bayarea.com.
Distributed by Knight Ridder/Tribune Information Services.
-
=====
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'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
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