EV Digest 2825
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Efficiency numbers
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Efficiency numbers
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Battery pack sizing questions
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Batteries
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5) Re: Efficiency numbers
by "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Efficiency numbers
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Efficiency numbers
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) OT. Important!!!!! OIL supplies, was Re: EV comments
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Supercaps vs AGM for drag racing?
by "EV'r up LATE" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Efficiency numbers
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Supercaps vs AGM for drag racing?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) Re: EV digest 2824
by Rick Woodbury <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Efficiency numbers
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Speed Controller
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Efficiency web page
by "James Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Battery behavior
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: OT. Important!!!!! OIL supplies, was Re: EV comments
by Matt Muelver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Back on topic - why I like electric
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Efficiency numbers
by Ryan Fulcher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: EV A/C Compressor
by "Bryan Avery" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: EV A/C Compressor
by "Bryan Avery" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Back on topic - why I like electric
by Sherri J Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On 29 May 2003 at 14:40, Christopher Zach wrote:
> Cost of power: 8c/kw hr
> Cost to make 8.25 kw hr of power: 66 cents
Careful! The real "fuel" you used was lead. The electricity cost is
trivial. You can't ignore battery amortization, especially with those
Mercedes-class batteries in your car.
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've computed the cost per mile of various batteries. This is under optimum
conditions -- every cycle uses the ideal 50% (or 80%) DOD. Real world costs
will be at least double this. It's also based on my Solectria, so your
costs will differ, but it's a ballpark figure and comparative. (The table
probably won't line up right -- sorry.)
East Penn 8G27 (gel) $0.20
Optima G31 (agm) $0.14
Trojan 27TMH (flooded marine) $0.08
Saft STM5-100MR (nicad) $0.04
USBMC 2200 (flooded golf car)* $0.02
*My car couldn't really handle 144 volts of GC batteries, so this is purely
theoretical.
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
too late to data log Amps and �F ?
Philippe
Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ralph Merwin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 11:10 PM
Subject: Re: Battery pack sizing questions
> Victor Tikhonov writes:
> >
> > Why not buy few same NiCds just to replace damaged ones? THis is the
> > only
> > expense then, no rebuilds needed. May be you can find used ones of
> > the same type.
>
> I did buy used replacements. I changed out the first three modules
> that died and tried to reinitialize the pack. Two more modules died
> in the process (9 amps for 15 hours). This led me to believe that
> the whole pack was soon going to die, module by module.
>
> Then I learned that my car's configuration was drawing too much current
> for too long a time for the SAFTs, which, according to a Brusa engineer,
> leads to "dramatically reduced lifetimes".
>
> If I want to continue to use NiCads, I would need to change to larger
> modules and add more of them to keep my peak current draw below the
> SAFT 'continuous' rating.
>
> Many other people report that NiCads are almost indestructible, which
> is why I used them. I assume something about my configuration or use
> patterns is wrong, and the theory of damaging them with excessive
> currents is certainly a plausible explanation.
>
> It would be interesting to hear others. I do have the option of
> replacing the entire pack with another used pack, but unless I know why
> my old pack died and can change something to fix the problem, it would
> be pointless.
>
> Ralph
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There are now only60 svr14s left Dennis Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You don't use the lead. I'd bet that almost all of the lead in my old
Genesis batteries is right now going back to battery land to make happy new
golf cart batteries.
That being said, Genesis batteries are expensive. They also deliver power
*really* nicely, never need watering or futzing, and can be stacked all over
the place in battery boxes. I'm trying to be very gentle with mine, but I
can feel that if I punched it the car would *launch*. We'll see how long
they last.
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 3:54 PM
Subject: Re: Efficiency numbers
> On 29 May 2003 at 14:40, Christopher Zach wrote:
>
> > Cost of power: 8c/kw hr
> > Cost to make 8.25 kw hr of power: 66 cents
>
> Careful! The real "fuel" you used was lead. The electricity cost is
> trivial. You can't ignore battery amortization, especially with those
> Mercedes-class batteries in your car.
>
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
> switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
> thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Christopher Zach wrote:
> You don't use the lead. I'd bet that almost all of the lead
> in my old Genesis batteries is right now going back to
> battery land to make happy new golf cart batteries.
>
> That being said, Genesis batteries are expensive. They also
> deliver power
> *really* nicely, never need watering or futzing, and can be
> stacked all over the place in battery boxes. I'm trying to be
> very gentle with mine, but I can feel that if I punched it
> the car would *launch*. We'll see how long they last.
>
> Chris
>
> > On 29 May 2003 at 14:40, Christopher Zach wrote:
> >
> > > Cost of power: 8c/kw hr
> > > Cost to make 8.25 kw hr of power: 66 cents
> >
> > Careful! The real "fuel" you used was lead. The
> electricity cost is
> > trivial. You can't ignore battery amortization, especially
> with those
> > Mercedes-class batteries in your car.
David is trying to establish an equivalence between ICE vehicles and
EVs, but it's not easy. Another way of looking at it is that an ICE
uses relatively expensive fuel. An EV uses really cheap fuel, but you
have to replace the fuel "tank" every few years.
The bottom line is that battery cost is a big chunk of what you pay to
get you down the road in an EV. A general comparison that non-EVers
might understand better is that battery cost and the savings in ICE
maintenance roughly cancel out. The difference between gas and
electricity costs, the lack of logistical problems in leaving your car
at the shop, and the fact that you never have to pump gas are icing on
the cake. Everyone's situation is different so your mileage *will*
vary.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 30 May 2003 at 16:19, Christopher Zach wrote:
> You don't use the lead. I'd bet that almost all of the lead in my old
> Genesis batteries is right now going back to battery land to make happy new
> golf cart batteries.
I didn't mean literally. The point is that you figuratively use up the
batteries as you drive. After x miles (anywhere from a few hundred to tens
of thousands) they are depreciated and you recycle them. Then you divide
what you paid by the miles you drove. That number can vary wildly.
Ask anybody who's driven electric for a few years: there are exceptions (Lee
Hart is one), but most of us pay MORE per mile than with comparable gas
cars.
There are other good reasons to drive electric though. Money isn't
everything.
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Damon and All,
--- damon henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I had a similar EVent the other day while making one
> of my many trips
> through the neighborhood on Sparky. One of my
> neighbors flagged me down,
> and after taking a few minutes to look things over
> said something along the
> lines of "Very smart, this is a great way to stop
> the wars." Now I'm not
> naive enough to believe that EV's can stop all wars,
> the world was full of
> wars long before Internal Combustion Engines, but it
> seems obvious that
> America's oil dependency has been a major factor in
> the US going to war with
> Iraq twice, although this is about as political as I
> want to go on this
> list.
>
> damon
This will be more true in the near future.
The world oil production peaked in 2001!!!! No
one is talking about this fact that in the next year
or 2 the demand for oil will exceed supply as it did
for about 2 weeks during the Iraq war where the price
went to $39 BBl.
If it had lasted longer no telling how high it
would go.
It didn't help that Bush at the peak bought 40
million BBL's for the National reserves driving it to
those levels and as oil men they know what going on.
Expect it to return to $39 BBl and more, $100
bbl, in the next year or 2 unless Bush drives us into
a deep resession as he seems set on doing.
While this will be great for EV's the hugh rise
in energy prices could cause a depression, at least a
recession. Be prepared!!!
Those who remember the 73 oil fiasco when the US
hit it's Peak oil production, this is going to make
that look like a picnic.
Some #'s, US uses 10 bbls for every bbl we
discover here and the world uses 2 bbls for every 1
bbl discovered. Not Good!!!! No wonder India and China
are going EV.
All oil people know this and even the most
optimistic say it will happen in 2008, only 5 years
away. It takes 10 years to change to the new energy
costs so we are screwed even if they start fixing it
now.
For more info read Hubbert's Peak or put it in
the web or World or US oil production to see the mess
we (Bush, congress) have made.
Price will settle out at about $3 to $5 a gallon
as that's the cost of biofuels which compete with it.
Either we switch to Renewable transport energy
now or more wars, recessions, depressions are in our
near future. Lucky for us we have EV's!!!!
Please don't answer to the list,
jerry dycus
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
http://calendar.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
More Bummed. guess not all svr14's are amply equal..
any idea on what they can do?
Jobless in San Jose
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 12:33 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Supercaps vs AGM for drag racing?
I still have over110 new svr14s batteries for sale,but this model does not
put out 1500amps like the svr14s on Rod Wildes web page.The ones I have are
$15
ea + shipping. I also have super power17ah marathorn nicads 4 sale.
Dennis Kilowatt Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> The bottom line is that battery cost is a big chunk of what you pay to
> get you down the road in an EV. A general comparison that non-EVers
> might understand better is that battery cost and the savings in ICE
> maintenance roughly cancel out.
Sorry but I don't buy that. Not with modern ICEs. My Escort is almost
10 years old and approaching 160,000 miles. Assuming a similar EV with
'cheap' 6V GC batteries I'd have gone through 5-8 sets by now
($5,000-$8,000).
Total engine maintenance on this car has been perhaps $2,000 (over
estimate). Had I paid to have the clutch and timing belt changed (only
major problems so far) it would be close to $3,000.
Then again paying to have the batteries changed in an EV would probably
cost you $200-$300 each time so....
My new truck comes with a 70,000 mile warranty and free 3,000 mile oil
changes for life. I suspect maintenance costs on it will be even
cheaper than the escort.
FWIW if you feel that I should include the cost of having a professional
change my oil, then out of fairness you should include the MONTHLY cost
of having a professional service the batteries (assuming flooded
cells). Quite frankly changing the oil in the escort is far easier and
quicker than checking and adding water to my batteries. I probably go
through 10-12 gallons of distilled water a year (maybe more), that's
roughly the cost of one oil change (escort gets 2-3 per year)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
After breaking in Svr14 batteries I get 900amps for10sec at 5.9 to 6 volts
at 110F. Dennis Kilowatt Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Rick, Do you know if the development kit includes any additional
> components that aren't included with the standard compressor package?
No I don't. It may just be a pricing for the first unit because they know
we'll have to spend some time with their engineers, sizing the unit etc.
> Rick (or anyone else): How about organizing a quantity purchase of (say)
> 10 systems? That should get the price down, and some knowledgeable
> person could pick the rest of the parts to build workable system.
Once we have ordered our development kit (We have an AC drive Sanden at
present) and are ready to place an order, I'd be happy to post to this list
and allow anyone else to buy the units we decide on for the Tango at our
cost. The order wouldn't even have to be a specific number because our price
is the same from 1 to 500 units.
Rick Woodbury Phone: (509) 624-0762
President, Commuter Cars Corporation Toll-free: (800) 468-0944
Doubling the capacity of freeways Fax: (509) 624-1466
Quadrupling the capacity of parking Cellular: (509) 979-1815
Zero to 60 in under 4 seconds
715 E. Sprague Ave., Suite 114 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Spokane, WA 99202 Web: http://www.commutercars.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 04:05 PM 5/30/2003 -0400, David Roden (Akron OH USA) wrote:
I've computed the cost per mile of various batteries. This is under
optimum
conditions -- every cycle uses the ideal 50% (or 80%) DOD. Real world
costs
will be at least double this. It's also based on my Solectria, so your
costs will differ, but it's a ballpark figure and comparative. (The table
probably won't line up right -- sorry.)
East Penn 8G27 (gel) $0.20
Optima G31 (agm) $0.14
Trojan 27TMH (flooded marine) $0.08
Saft STM5-100MR (nicad) $0.04
USBMC 2200 (flooded golf car)* $0.02
*My car couldn't really handle 144 volts of GC batteries, so this is
purely
theoretical.
So, the comparison isn't especially useful either. You need to compare
comparable packs, being used the same way.
This means that
A) The pack should fit in the vehicle
B) The DOD isn't constant, but the KWH used is.
For my Sparrow with YT's, My normal commute was a 80% (maybe 90%) DOD each
way every day.
With my LiIon pack (being worked on now!), my DOD should be around 40% each
way every day.
The difference in %DOD makes a significant difference in useable pack
lifetime.
My YT pack becomes unuseable when it can no longer deliver 80% of it's
original capacity.
My LiIon pack will be useable until it drops to 40% (!) of it's original
capacity.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Message to me that others found to be a good price. Lawrence Rhodes......
> I have a factory remanufactured 1204X-5201 controller for sale. 36-48VDC
> 275amp. The unit comes with a full 2 year warranty. The price is
> $180.00 including shipping, which would be UPS ground. We accept Visa,
> MasterCard, AMEX.
> Thanks for your inquiry,
>
> Peter Hascher
> Sales Manager
> Alternative Fuels Equipment
> 20638 Krick Rd.
> Cleveland, OH 44146
> 800.772.4836
> 440-232-4111
> 440-232-9106 FAX
Hello Everyone,
I'm new to this group (so to speak) and have always been interested in
Electric or Alternative Fueled Vehicles. I'm currently building a "Go-Kart"
for my son, and am going to power it electrically, but I don't know where to
find a Speed Controller for it. I figured some of you would be able to
point me in the right direction!?
I'm using a Leeson 1/2hp, 24V motor, that I took from an adult assisted
scooter. It has a speed controller but I want to increase the voltage to
the motor to 36V, and I don't think this controller would work at the
greater voltage?
I'd prefer it to be a cheap controller or at least very inexpensive. If
anyone has Plans for a controller, I have a person that is good with
electronics and could probably build it.
Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Thank you,
David
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok,
I've been working on a project at my desk today so I had time to take the
spreadsheet I posted earlier and turn it into a dynamic web page.
This works pretty good (so far) I'm sure there are other things I should
include (and I may if people tell me what to change/include).
Anyway, take a look and play with it. I'd appreciate some feedback.
http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/~jarrett/EV/index.php3
James
James F. Jarrett
Information Systems Associate
Charlotte Country Day School
(704)943-4562
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well I reread my message and I don't think I explained myself properly.
When I say lower voltage I meant to say during charging the battery hits 10v
and then drops slowly to about 9.2v which is under the lowest charge voltage
of 9.6v that I am comfortable with. I am just wondering if I am hammering
these batteries that do this by charging my other batteries fully? Lawrence
Rhodes.....
----------------------------------------------------
This mailbox protected from junk email by Matador
from MailFrontier, Inc. http://info.mailfrontier.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 11:27 AM
Subject: Re: Battery behavior
> Lawrence wrote:
> >When a battery comes up to target voltage and then drops in voltage below
> >all the other charging batteries what does this indicate? Battery feels
> >cool. Resting voltage is about .1 volt lower than other batteries.
This
> >is a sealed battery. Lawrence Rhodes......
>
> I have a more drastic example; one that drops to about 13.6v while
> the rest are finish charging at 15v (plus or minus 0.2v). That
> battery was baked hard in its first year--it was vented so much I
> just am happy it still works.
>
> I would bet your voltage dropper has been vented a few times. My
> recommended test is to check the voltage ever 5 minutes during
> charge, starting at least one half hour before you expect any battery
> to pop up in voltage. There you should see the time where its voltage
> rises over 15v - and at amp levels high enuf to vent it.
>
> Don't worry about this to much though, just make sure the charger is
> no longer repeating the abuse. My well vented Optima has put in 3
> more years of service this way. Only last year did it start to show
> lowered capacity. Its still not the smallest battery in the pack, but
> has dropped from number 1 to number 8 (out of 10).
>
> Neon
>
> P.S. - that is 4 years without any regulators or a decent charger!
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Please excuse me while I puke my guts out after reading this load of
crap.
Now for some duct tape around the head to keep my brains from
spattering all over the walls when my head explodes because I can't
handle the sheer stupidity.
It always seems that the narrow minded among us just can't follow the
rules. Since when can we go so far off topic by simply putting the
little "OT" before the post?
Now, for my ON TOPIC piece of the day. My Go-Kart EV is coming along
nicely. I'm currently trying to acquire a sprocket for my motor and
fabricate a motor mount. Good news is that I think I can use the
Insight battery pack, if I can find contactors robust enough to handle
72V and construct some kind of crude controller.
Happy EVing everyone!
On Friday, May 30, 2003, at 03:57 PM, jerry dycus wrote:
Hi Damon and All,
--- damon henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I had a similar EVent the other day while making one
of my many trips
through the neighborhood on Sparky. One of my
neighbors flagged me down,
and after taking a few minutes to look things over
said something along the
lines of "Very smart, this is a great way to stop
the wars." Now I'm not
naive enough to believe that EV's can stop all wars,
the world was full of
wars long before Internal Combustion Engines, but it
seems obvious that
America's oil dependency has been a major factor in
the US going to war with
Iraq twice, although this is about as political as I
want to go on this
list.
damon
This will be more true in the near future.
The world oil production peaked in 2001!!!! No
one is talking about this fact that in the next year
or 2 the demand for oil will exceed supply as it did
for about 2 weeks during the Iraq war where the price
went to $39 BBl.
If it had lasted longer no telling how high it
would go.
It didn't help that Bush at the peak bought 40
million BBL's for the National reserves driving it to
those levels and as oil men they know what going on.
Expect it to return to $39 BBl and more, $100
bbl, in the next year or 2 unless Bush drives us into
a deep resession as he seems set on doing.
While this will be great for EV's the hugh rise
in energy prices could cause a depression, at least a
recession. Be prepared!!!
Those who remember the 73 oil fiasco when the US
hit it's Peak oil production, this is going to make
that look like a picnic.
Some #'s, US uses 10 bbls for every bbl we
discover here and the world uses 2 bbls for every 1
bbl discovered. Not Good!!!! No wonder India and China
are going EV.
All oil people know this and even the most
optimistic say it will happen in 2008, only 5 years
away. It takes 10 years to change to the new energy
costs so we are screwed even if they start fixing it
now.
For more info read Hubbert's Peak or put it in
the web or World or US oil production to see the mess
we (Bush, congress) have made.
Price will settle out at about $3 to $5 a gallon
as that's the cost of biofuels which compete with it.
Either we switch to Renewable transport energy
now or more wars, recessions, depressions are in our
near future. Lucky for us we have EV's!!!!
Please don't answer to the list,
jerry dycus
--
My Favorite Quotes:
"God Bless America." - President George W. Bush
"Let's roll." - Todd Beamer
"From my cold dead hands!" - Charleton Heston, NRA President
"Mr. Gorbechev, tear down this wall!" - President Ronald Reagan
"Words mean things." - Rush Limbaugh
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Obviously we all have different political views and different reasons why we
drive electric. My original post was in response to what a neighbor said
and was an important part of the story. I'm still pretty confident that if
Iraq and Kuwait's main export was sea water instead of oil not even one
troop would have been sent to stop any of the nasty evil stuff dictators do
to their own people and their weaker neighbors, but there I go drifting off
topic again...
Here are the reasons I drive electric and a hybrid as far as that goes.
I really believe it is better for the environment. I understand that any
energy use has an impact on the world around us, in my case a lot of the
electricity comes from the huge dams in this area which caused tremendous
environmental impact, but I personally believe that having a one time
catostrophic impact on an area then letting nature settle in around the
change isn't such a bad thing.
I think that electric drive is much simpler technology which is less prone
to break. I am amazed at the lack of moving parts in an electric
drivetrain.
It's just plain cool, or perhaps it's just different enough to draw some
attention. I love cruising quietly around the neighborhood and stopping and
talking to the neighbors that are looking at me trying to figure out what is
going on.
I have always loved playing with electicity. From my grade school days and
"project lightning" (this was me basically trying to weld with an extension
cord with two bare ends) to studying to be an Electrical Engineer which got
cut short when I started to learn about computers and decided that was my
lifes calling, I have always had my finger in the light socket sometimes
quite literally.
damon
From: Matt Muelver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: OT. Important!!!!! OIL supplies, was Re: EV comments
Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 17:31:43 -0500
Please excuse me while I puke my guts out after reading this load of crap.
Now for some duct tape around the head to keep my brains from spattering
all over the walls when my head explodes because I can't handle the sheer
stupidity.
It always seems that the narrow minded among us just can't follow the
rules. Since when can we go so far off topic by simply putting the little
"OT" before the post?
Now, for my ON TOPIC piece of the day. My Go-Kart EV is coming along
nicely. I'm currently trying to acquire a sprocket for my motor and
fabricate a motor mount. Good news is that I think I can use the Insight
battery pack, if I can find contactors robust enough to handle 72V and
construct some kind of crude controller.
Happy EVing everyone!
On Friday, May 30, 2003, at 03:57 PM, jerry dycus wrote:
Hi Damon and All,
--- damon henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I had a similar EVent the other day while making one
of my many trips
through the neighborhood on Sparky. One of my
neighbors flagged me down,
and after taking a few minutes to look things over
said something along the
lines of "Very smart, this is a great way to stop
the wars." Now I'm not
naive enough to believe that EV's can stop all wars,
the world was full of
wars long before Internal Combustion Engines, but it
seems obvious that
America's oil dependency has been a major factor in
the US going to war with
Iraq twice, although this is about as political as I
want to go on this
list.
damon
This will be more true in the near future.
The world oil production peaked in 2001!!!! No
one is talking about this fact that in the next year
or 2 the demand for oil will exceed supply as it did
for about 2 weeks during the Iraq war where the price
went to $39 BBl.
If it had lasted longer no telling how high it
would go.
It didn't help that Bush at the peak bought 40
million BBL's for the National reserves driving it to
those levels and as oil men they know what going on.
Expect it to return to $39 BBl and more, $100
bbl, in the next year or 2 unless Bush drives us into
a deep resession as he seems set on doing.
While this will be great for EV's the hugh rise
in energy prices could cause a depression, at least a
recession. Be prepared!!!
Those who remember the 73 oil fiasco when the US
hit it's Peak oil production, this is going to make
that look like a picnic.
Some #'s, US uses 10 bbls for every bbl we
discover here and the world uses 2 bbls for every 1
bbl discovered. Not Good!!!! No wonder India and China
are going EV.
All oil people know this and even the most
optimistic say it will happen in 2008, only 5 years
away. It takes 10 years to change to the new energy
costs so we are screwed even if they start fixing it
now.
For more info read Hubbert's Peak or put it in
the web or World or US oil production to see the mess
we (Bush, congress) have made.
Price will settle out at about $3 to $5 a gallon
as that's the cost of biofuels which compete with it.
Either we switch to Renewable transport energy
now or more wars, recessions, depressions are in our
near future. Lucky for us we have EV's!!!!
Please don't answer to the list,
jerry dycus
--
My Favorite Quotes:
"God Bless America." - President George W. Bush
"Let's roll." - Todd Beamer
"From my cold dead hands!" - Charleton Heston, NRA President
"Mr. Gorbechev, tear down this wall!" - President Ronald Reagan
"Words mean things." - Rush Limbaugh
_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have not heard any mention of the environmental impacts yet.
I think that this may be yet another reason why EV'ers drive EV's.
- Maybe it's "cheaper" to drive an EV ( we're trying to hash that one out )
- Perhaps it's more "FUN" to drive an EV, all that silent smooth torque!
- It is without a doubt much "Cleaner" to drive an EV.
-- No need to buy gas. ( no oil to drill for, refine, transport )
-- No emissions ( green house gasses, globle warming )
-- No need to change engine oil (where does it come from, and where does
it go?)
So when someone said "but you are just shifting the pollution to a power
plant"
Or "But my car is SULEV, and that's cleaner than electricity from a
power plant"
One might respond with...
Have you ever seen a "Personal home oil production and refining plant" ? No!
Do you have an oil well in your back yard? No!
On the other hand...
Have you ever seen "Personal home solar, wind, hydro power" ? YES!
Every one of our homes is cabaple of collecting "Free Energy" from the
sun and wind. If you live near a stream, you can get some from hydro
aswell.
I guess it comes down to this...
A vehicle fueled with gas is dependent on the system, always and forever.
A vehicle fueled with electricity (Batteries, fuel cells, solar panels) has
the option of being independent of the system. You might pay $0.08/kwh
but you might collect your own power someday for ohh say $0.00/kwh.
Now what do the figures look like?
What is the cost of a supertanker oil spill?
What is the cost of globle warming?
What is the cost of WAR?
L8r
Ryan
PS. I know this is all obvious to most of you, here on the list.
But if the public is to see a "comparison" of ICE/EV cost of investment.
Then we should consider the entire system,
not just from the outlet/pump to the road.
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
The bottom line is that battery cost is a big chunk of what you pay to
get you down the road in an EV. A general comparison that non-EVers
might understand better is that battery cost and the savings in ICE
maintenance roughly cancel out.
Sorry but I don't buy that. Not with modern ICEs. My Escort is almost
10 years old and approaching 160,000 miles. Assuming a similar EV with
'cheap' 6V GC batteries I'd have gone through 5-8 sets by now
($5,000-$8,000).
Total engine maintenance on this car has been perhaps $2,000 (over
estimate). Had I paid to have the clutch and timing belt changed (only
major problems so far) it would be close to $3,000.
Then again paying to have the batteries changed in an EV would probably
cost you $200-$300 each time so....
My new truck comes with a 70,000 mile warranty and free 3,000 mile oil
changes for life. I suspect maintenance costs on it will be even
cheaper than the escort.
FWIW if you feel that I should include the cost of having a professional
change my oil, then out of fairness you should include the MONTHLY cost
of having a professional service the batteries (assuming flooded
cells). Quite frankly changing the oil in the escort is far easier and
quicker than checking and adding water to my batteries. I probably go
through 10-12 gallons of distilled water a year (maybe more), that's
roughly the cost of one oil change (escort gets 2-3 per year)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If it is just an issue of pressure, my stock A/C system has a pressure
switch designed to protect the A/C compressor by opening the circuit to
switch the compressor off if the pressure is abnormally high or low
(from a leak). It seems like this switch could be used just as easily
to switch off the motor when the pressure is too high, assuming the
pressure limit of the new compressor matched that of the old one. This
would have the benefit of automatically switching the A/C back on when
the pressure dropped back down to a normal level.
I'm not sure if the lock-up risk that the guy I spoke with was referring
to was actually an issue of too much pressure, though (like I said, I
don't know much about A/C systems, so a lot of what I was told went
right over my head the first time). I'll have to check back and see if
I can get more information.
-Bryan Avery
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
> Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
> Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 12:41 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: EV A/C Compressor
>
> FWIW, In my old life I used stock A/C from my Honda driven by Leeson
> PM DC motor:
>
> http://metricmind.com/dc_honda/hood2.jpg
> http://metricmind.com/dc_honda/ac1.jpg
>
> The 1.5 hp motor (160V 6.7A working directly off of 120V pack)
> was overkill: when A/C was on it didn't even slow down the motor a
> bit. Cooling was excellent, and lock up was prevented by
> simple 10A fuse - when the pressure builds up too much, so does
> the motor current and the fuse blows before pressure reach dangerous
> level.
>
> I plan to re-use it again with smaller motor (AC or DC brushless)
> unless there is good deal with potential group buy and worthwhile
> benefits.
>
> Victor
>
> Bryan Avery wrote:
> >
> > I would go in on a group purchase if it meant getting this kind of
> > pricing. My only concern is the control electronics & the issue I
> > mentioned earlier regarding proper system sizing to match the
> > compressor. I don't know how critical this really is, but the
result if
> > something goes wrong is not very pretty. Apparently if the
compressor
> > locks up, then it's pretty much garbage since the unit is
hermetically
> > sealed and can't be repaired.
> >
> > Rick, Do you know if the development kit includes any additional
> > components that aren't included with the standard compressor
package?
> >
> > -Bryan Avery
> >
> > >
> > > Rick (or anyone else): How about organizing a quantity purchase of
> > (say)
> > > 10 systems? That should get the price down, and some knowledgeable
> > > person could pick the rest of the parts to build workable system.
> > > --
> > > Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> > > 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> > > Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> > > leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard
> > Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> Once we have ordered our development kit (We have an AC drive Sanden
at
> present) and are ready to place an order, I'd be happy to post to this
> list
> and allow anyone else to buy the units we decide on for the Tango at
our
> cost. The order wouldn't even have to be a specific number because our
> price
> is the same from 1 to 500 units.
>
Any idea how far off into the future this might be?
-Bryan Avery
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>Please excuse me while I puke my guts out after
reading this load of
crap.
>
This is amazing! I don't want to start a political
war, but who in their right mind thinks the war had
anything to do with WMD? We're still looking?
If we had any intelligence of this it would be
found immediately for political reasons.
I don't believe my TEVan or any other EV will
solve our energy independance, but it certainly
is a step in the right direction. I think the
bottom line is common sense, something on very
short supply these days. The trend in transportation
is very desturbing when I drive by at least 4-5
expeditions commuting with single people to work.
Humvee's? these are hideous vehicles with no purpose
for civilian transportation. I would think a Tango
would be much cooler and unique for the patriotic
flag wavers.
I guess the mindset needs to change.
Please excuse me while I puke............
--- damon henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Obviously we all have different political views and
> different reasons why we
> drive electric. My original post was in response to
> what a neighbor said
> and was an important part of the story. I'm still
> pretty confident that if
> Iraq and Kuwait's main export was sea water instead
> of oil not even one
> troop would have been sent to stop any of the nasty
> evil stuff dictators do
> to their own people and their weaker neighbors, but
> there I go drifting off
> topic again...
>
> Here are the reasons I drive electric and a hybrid
> as far as that goes.
>
> I really believe it is better for the environment.
> I understand that any
> energy use has an impact on the world around us, in
> my case a lot of the
> electricity comes from the huge dams in this area
> which caused tremendous
> environmental impact, but I personally believe that
> having a one time
> catostrophic impact on an area then letting nature
> settle in around the
> change isn't such a bad thing.
>
> I think that electric drive is much simpler
> technology which is less prone
> to break. I am amazed at the lack of moving parts
> in an electric
> drivetrain.
>
> It's just plain cool, or perhaps it's just different
> enough to draw some
> attention. I love cruising quietly around the
> neighborhood and stopping and
> talking to the neighbors that are looking at me
> trying to figure out what is
> going on.
>
> I have always loved playing with electicity. From
> my grade school days and
> "project lightning" (this was me basically trying to
> weld with an extension
> cord with two bare ends) to studying to be an
> Electrical Engineer which got
> cut short when I started to learn about computers
> and decided that was my
> lifes calling, I have always had my finger in the
> light socket sometimes
> quite literally.
>
> damon
>
>
> >From: Matt Muelver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Subject: Re: OT. Important!!!!! OIL supplies, was
> Re: EV comments
> >Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 17:31:43 -0500
> >
> >Please excuse me while I puke my guts out after
> reading this load of crap.
> >
> >Now for some duct tape around the head to keep my
> brains from spattering
> >all over the walls when my head explodes because I
> can't handle the sheer
> >stupidity.
> >
> >It always seems that the narrow minded among us
> just can't follow the
> >rules. Since when can we go so far off topic by
> simply putting the little
> >"OT" before the post?
> >
> >Now, for my ON TOPIC piece of the day. My Go-Kart
> EV is coming along
> >nicely. I'm currently trying to acquire a sprocket
> for my motor and
> >fabricate a motor mount. Good news is that I think
> I can use the Insight
> >battery pack, if I can find contactors robust
> enough to handle 72V and
> >construct some kind of crude controller.
> >
> >Happy EVing everyone!
> >
> >On Friday, May 30, 2003, at 03:57 PM, jerry dycus
> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Damon and All,
> >>--- damon henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>>I had a similar EVent the other day while making
> one
> >>>of my many trips
> >>>through the neighborhood on Sparky. One of my
> >>>neighbors flagged me down,
> >>>and after taking a few minutes to look things
> over
> >>>said something along the
> >>>lines of "Very smart, this is a great way to stop
> >>>the wars." Now I'm not
> >>>naive enough to believe that EV's can stop all
> wars,
> >>>the world was full of
> >>>wars long before Internal Combustion Engines, but
> it
> >>>seems obvious that
> >>>America's oil dependency has been a major factor
> in
> >>>the US going to war with
> >>>Iraq twice, although this is about as political
> as I
> >>>want to go on this
> >>>list.
> >>>
> >>>damon
> >> This will be more true in the near future.
> >> The world oil production peaked in 2001!!!!
> No
> >>one is talking about this fact that in the next
> year
> >>or 2 the demand for oil will exceed supply as it
> did
> >>for about 2 weeks during the Iraq war where the
> price
> >>went to $39 BBl.
> >> If it had lasted longer no telling how high
> it
> >>would go.
> >> It didn't help that Bush at the peak bought
> 40
> >>million BBL's for the National reserves driving it
> to
> >>those levels and as oil men they know what going
> on.
> >> Expect it to return to $39 BBl and more,
> $100
> >>bbl, in the next year or 2 unless Bush drives us
> into
> >>a deep resession as he seems set on doing.
> >> While this will be great for EV's the hugh
> rise
> >>in energy prices could cause a depression, at
> least a
> >>recession. Be prepared!!!
> >> Those who remember the 73 oil fiasco when
> the US
> >>hit it's Peak oil production, this is going to
> make
> >>that look like a picnic.
> >> Some #'s, US uses 10 bbls for every bbl we
> >>discover here and the world uses 2 bbls for every
> 1
> >>bbl discovered. Not Good!!!! No wonder India and
> China
> >>are going EV.
> >> All oil people know this and even the most
> >>optimistic say it will happen in 2008, only 5
> years
> >>away. It takes 10 years to change to the new
> energy
> >>costs so we are screwed even if they start fixing
> it
> >>now.
> >> For more info read Hubbert's Peak or put it
> in
> >>the web or World or US oil production to see the
> mess
> >>we (Bush, congress) have made.
> >> Price will settle out at about $3 to $5 a
> gallon
> >>as that's the cost of biofuels which compete with
> it.
> >> Either we switch to Renewable transport
> energy
> >>now or more wars, recessions, depressions are in
> our
> >>near future. Lucky for us we have EV's!!!!
> >> Please don't answer to the list,
> >> jerry dycus
> >--
> >My Favorite Quotes:
> >"God Bless America." - President George W. Bush
> >"Let's roll." - Todd Beamer
> >"From my cold dead hands!" - Charleton Heston, NRA
> President
> >"Mr. Gorbechev, tear down this wall!" - President
> Ronald Reagan
> >"Words mean things." - Rush Limbaugh
> >
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
> Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months
> FREE*.
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
>
=== message truncated ===
--- End Message ---
