EV Digest 2851
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Another MagneCharger
by "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Amps and amp hours
by "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) B&D Cordless lawnmowers $150 with trade in-So Cal
by "Buford, Joseph E" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) PFC charger in a Prizm
by "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Amps and amp hours
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: San Francisco George Moscone Convention Center update on Sola
r energy project
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) RE: Amps and amp hours
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Amps and amp hours
by "T Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: 1958 Chevy Truck Conversion
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) RE: Ampabout
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: PFC charger in a Prizm
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Sparrow handling (was 1958 Chevy Truck Conversion)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Another MagneCharger
by Alex Karahalios <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: PFC charger in a Prizm
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Sparrow handling (was 1958 Chevy Truck Conversion)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) RE: Sparrow handling (was 1958 Chevy Truck Conversion)
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) EV1 vs Prizm...
by "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: EV1 vs Prizm...
by Alex Karahalios <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: EV1 vs Prizm...
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: 1958 Chevy Truck Conversion
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: EV1 vs Prizm...
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Ampabout
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Troubleshooting help needed!
by "Mark Dodrill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Dave, I sent you a seperate message to forward to Charlie.
In short I'd be willing to trade permission to charge with anyone who has a
MagneCharger and needs a boost. These things are *fast* (I can get 36 amp
hours @330 volts into the pack in 2 hours) and a great way to bulk charge a
car up to 80% quickly. I currently have the following:
MagneCharger in Relay MD 21045
1 mile off I-95
MagneCharger in Timonium MD 21093
3 miles off I-695
Anyone interested in swapping charger access with me? With these two
chargers I can pretty much range from Bel-Air MD down to GreenBelt MD.
Thanks
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, June 13, 2003 8:57 AM
Subject: Re: Another MagneCharger
> Charlie Garlow has one at his house in Silver Spring for his Chevy S10E
> pickup. Large paddle inductive just like you need. Anytime you go down
> that way and may need to use it, give him a call. I don't think he'd mind
> at all. And if he needs to head north, you can return the favor.
>
> He'll be at the Power of DC on the 29th with his truck. Are you going?
If
> so, see you there.
>
> Dave Davidson
> Glen Burnie, Maryland
> 1993 Dodge TEVan
>
>
> >From: "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Subject: Another MagneCharger
> >Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 14:08:27 -0400
> >
> >I just got another MagneCharger. YAAY!!!!
> >
> >Now I can install this one at my parent's house in Timonium MD and have a
> >place to flash charge. With a range now of 50 miles and a 80% charge time
> >of
> >2 hours I can go a *lot* more places with my Prizm!
> >
> >Now to put one in Silver Spring MD somewhere :-)
> >
> >Chris
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just trying to get this straight:
Amps is the instantaneous rate of current flow into or out of a circuit
element
Amp hours is the *amount* of current being supplied to or taken from in a
circuit element.
Thus the statement "I can charge the car at a rate of 18 amps" is correct,
but is "I can put 36 amp hours into the pack in 2 hours" a valid statement?
Also it seems that unless I include volts the amps and amp hour numbers are
pretty much useless (since I have a 300 volt pack and most people seem to
have 120ish volt packs)
Just checking
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
See http://www.aqmd.gov/news1/lawnmowerjune2.pdf
The AQMD Electric Lawnmower subsidy is on again
If you are in So Cal, come on down!
Joe Buford
310-416-9319
Boeing Satellite Systems
702 \O/
[XXXXX]-H-[XXXXX]
/0\ GEO
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A thought:
One of the reasons I need MagneCharger so much is that the on-board Dolphin
charger is not the greatest thing in the world. Max charging rate seems to
be about 3 amps at 120 volts and 6 amps at 240 volts (current is measured at
pack at 300 volts). Which is pretty weak when compared to the MagneCharger's
19 amp ability.
Has anyone used a PFC type charger in a Prizm/300 volt pack? Can it work on
110 volts input as well as 220? Can it raise a signal line when the pack is
charged (this can be used to tell the Dolphin controller to reset it's
numbers). Can it be equipped with an interlock to keep it from coming on if
the MC is also on?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Christopher,
A measurement of amps is actually a measurement of amp hours so both are
correct.
What changes when you charge your 300 volt pack at 18 amps and others charge
their 200 volt packs at 18 amps is the watts differ and you are actually
putting in 50% more power per hour to your pack than the 200 volt pack is
getting.
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny,
When Dennis Weaver and group came through on their "Drive to Survive", staff
from the City of San Francisco were quite to announce that they are planning
to put a similar ballot measure before the voters to approve a bond for Fuel
Cell installations.
Apparently this "Hydrogen Economy" bandwagon group feels that we should all
get into harvesting the H2 and converting it into electricity, for cars and
buildings. What they don't realize is it takes 6+ times more energy to
extract, store and transport H2 than it does to just generate electricity.
Even to use solar for hydrolysis, etc is much less efficient than generating
electricity, which in itself is only about 15% efficient (solar to
electricity).
What the H2 croud tends to ask EVers is why go electric when you are
generating more pollution at the electrical plants. Yet they fail to see
that most of the H2 extraction process is taking electricity from these same
sources, at a higher rate than it takes to recharge battery EVs.
Solar on buildings is great. Putting up H2 fuel cell plants on building, or
in cars, is consuming more energy than you get in return. And fuel cell
powered buildings become an uncontrolled unregulated (for now) pollution
source.
Keep pushing for battery electrics and solar.
-Ed
-----Original Message-----
From: Danny Ames [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 6:55 PM
To: EV SEND MSG
Subject: San Francisco George Moscone Convention Center update on Solar
energy project
San Francisco George Moscone Convention Center update on Solar energy
project
Being an electric car driver in San Francisco that has access to the
Avcon network in the City I have often wondered when the City will do
the voters will to start adding 10 mega-watts of Solar electric
generation.
Several phone calls later I have this to report.
Many thanks to Nick Carter and Adam Browning of VoteSolar.org for the
leads.
I have not yet gotten reply from Power Light Corporation regarding the
SF project.
Let me note my inquires were welcomed buy Fred Schwartz of the San
Francisco Public Utilities Commission.
Its been well over a year since the Hundred million dollar bond voter
approved measure passed but the permits were finally completed and
approved last Monday to start the Solar project for the George Moscone
Convention Center at a cost of about 4.5 million with a 2.25 million
State buy down. The actual start date date will now depend on the
Convention Centers schedule as events come and go. This has been coupled
with Energy Audits of the facility. Let me detract for a moment and
share one neat improvement is an ongoing conversion of existing lighting
fixtures that have greatly improved the efficiency of each lighting
fixture, saving 700 watts each with same light output. My concern with
the City is when is the Solar Generation is going to get done on this
first phase. It turns out the San Francisco PUC has been handling this
with as much bureaucratic zeal as one could expect but to their credit
have made it this far. In my interest to cover the story my PUC contact
was not interested in my wanting to document and particularly photograph
the project as they are going to do this themselves and video as well
which I said was great and would like access to these materials. This is
a very high profile project and a lot of public attention will be
focused on this as the work starts.
That all I have for now,
Danny Ames
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Garry Stanley wrote:
> A measurement of amps is actually a measurement of amp hours
> so both are correct.
Well, no.
Amps is the current flowing at a particular moment. Amp hours is amps x
hours, or *how long* you've been applying a current. It's a measure of
energy. The current can even vary through the duration of current flow
- you just integrate the current applied over the time period in
question to get amp hours.
Amps tell you how much current is flowing right now. Amp hours tells
you how much energy you've put into or drawn out of your pack.
> What changes when you charge your 300 volt pack at 18 amps
> and others charge their 200 volt packs at 18 amps is the
> watts differ and you are actually putting in 50% more power
> per hour to your pack than the 200 volt pack is getting.
This is true. Talking about amp hours makes sense when you refer to
*your* battery pack, because voltage is pretty constant. The Watt hours
in a 300V pack is of course greater than that in a 200V pack made up of
the same batteries wired the same way. That's why it's more useful to
speak in terms of Wh when discussing, for example, how efficient your
car is. Ah/mile is a useless term without knowing the voltage. Wh/mile
is a universal term.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes. I think you have it.
Right now I am drawing 1 amp. If I continue this for 1 hour I will
have drawn 1 amp-hour.
If I draw 60 amps for 1 min, I will have drawn 1 amp-hour.
(ignoring peukert).
If I draw 3600 amps for 1 sec, there goes 1 amp-hour.
Get it?
If your charger can supply and your pack can accept 18 amps
continuous for two hours, then yes you have recharged 36 amp-hours.
Also volts is very relevant
10 amphours on your 300volt pack is 3 kilowatthours.
10 amphours on your 36volt Elec-Trak pack is .36 kilowatthours.
Stay Charged!
Hump
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Christopher Zach [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Friday, June 13, 2003 9:46 AM
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Amps and amp hours
>
>
>Just trying to get this straight:
>
>Amps is the instantaneous rate of current flow into or out of a
circuit
>element Amp hours is the *amount* of current being supplied to or
taken from
>in a circuit element.
>
>Thus the statement "I can charge the car at a rate of 18 amps" is
correct,
>but is "I can put 36 amp hours into the pack in 2 hours" a valid
statement?
>
>Also it seems that unless I include volts the amps and amp hour
numbers are
>pretty much useless (since I have a 300 volt pack and most people
seem to
>have 120ish volt packs)
>
>Just checking
>Chris
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve,
The Sparrow is fast. Just some controls were integrated into the controller
system to limit the initial torque because all that power is going into a
single wheel. Last thing you want is for the rear wheel to break loose when
you are accelerating.
Case in point with my Sparrow: After a fresh rain (after a long dry period),
I was stopped at an uphill freeway offramp, on fresh pavement, about to make
a left turn onto a major street. When the light turned green, I started to
accelerate quickly while turning left. The rear wheel started spinning and
lost traction, broke lose and even though my foot immediately came off the
go-peddle, the Sparrow rear spun quickly to the right (counter clockwise). I
tried to correct by steering right, but didn't have enough forward
momentium. When I stopped the Sparrow was halfway through the intersection,
facing oncoming traffic - 180 degree spin. So I gently drove forward,
swinging back around to the left and drove away, maintaining wheel traction.
Lesson learned - no jack rabbit starts, especially on wet pavement.
My Sparrow was retrofit with an original DCP controller, which doesn't have
much of the limiters/controls that the newer Sparrow controller
configurations have.
Also, Jeff Bradley drove his Sparrow several years ago at Woodburn, and did
1/4 mile in 14.932 seconds, top speed of 83.48 mph. That means he finished
the 1/4 mile with the 8" ADC motor spinning at about 7400+ rpm.
-Ed Thorpe
1sclunn wrote:
Or with the tranny , I hope they write about it. If its heavy than it will
need all that power . I've never been in a sparrow but at 1300 lbs 156v ,I
would have though it would have very very fast , I'm wondering if its a lot
of lose in the belt .
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'll second that! I didn't get them delivered to my door, but I did get
them delivered to the nearest dealer, and they came straight from the
factory. In fact, the distributor I used (Rick Fleenor of Standard Battery,
1616 Wyoming, Kansas City, MO 64102 (888) 405-4388) told me that although he
had enough on hand to meet my order, they had a truck coming in a couple
weeks with newer stock fresh from the factory, and that he would save those
for me so I would get a fresh, closely matched pack. So far. they have
performed beautifully, and have been a LOT cleaner than the old trojans!
-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce EVangel Parmenter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, June 13, 2003 2:28 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Ampabout
One of my San Jose EAA members, Don, questions me each time
after a http://geocities.com/sjeaa meeting. He is our
battery-exchange guy and keenly interested in batteries. He
feared that my switch from Trojan T145s to USBattery
US-145s would show a marked reduction in performance and
pack life.
Its been about a year since my pack change. As previously
POSTed, my local USBattery rep was quick to exchange the
four batteries I found a few months ago that were weaker
than the rest. Those four are fully broken in now.
I decided to fully charge my pack, and do a complete
equalization. Some chargers, like the Zivan, do a timed
equalization (only for a few hours). I was told that this
approach works if you let the Zivan do a fully recharge each
time you charge. I figured I would equalize for a much
longer time to get my pack the way I wanted.
I set my PFC-50 to 3 amps, and let it gently push amps into
my pack for the night. I checked and it used a little water,
but nothing serious. At that low a current, the electrolyte
was well churned, and I felt all cells were where I wanted
them to be. Some will say this was over kill, I wanted to
make sure all cells were fully charged and equalized,
before I did a range test on my pack.
To burn up some amps, I headed South on Hwy 101 on a known
route to Cupertino. Maintaining 55 mph was an easy 75 amps
with a surface voltage of 128 VDC. This round trip not only
let me feel the pack's performance, but bring my amp hours
down close to the pack's capacity.
To and on the return trip all was well. As I approached my
Hwy exit, I was only 80 ahs down out of a 100+ ah pack. At
55 mph, 100 amp draw, my surface voltage was reading 123 VDC
(this is normal). I still had 20 ahs to use up, so I passed
my regular Hwy exit, and took a little longer route.
On my way home, I have a long stretch of road I can use to
test my pack when it is depleted. My cruising control Emeter
showed two yellow leds (meaning the pack was spent) and read
100 ahs down. This is usually my target when I go on long
trips. I do not want to go to a deeper discharge than 100
ahs. This leaves me a margin of capacity left over (like
still having a gallon left in the tank though the gauge
reads empty.
Now for the test. I maintained a steady speed of 35 mph
drawing 100 amps, with a pack surface voltage of 116 VDC.
There was still plenty of power left to accellerate if I
wanted.
This tells me I have a healthy pack. I shot an email off to
Don letting him know not to be overly concerned of US
batteries.
This also means, if the job market has me give up and I
move to South, I will have a healthy pack to run around
in the desert.
IMHO: Trojan batteries cost a little more than US Batteries.
But Trojan batteries perform and last a little more than US
Batteries. It has been my experience that Trojan reps are
too fat on business to care for about their customers.
Whereas US Battery reps go out of their way for their EV
customers.
With those factors in mind, and with my experience with a
108 VDC pack of US-125s in the Escort EV I sold, and this
one year old 132 VDC US-145 pack in my Blazer EV, I feel
USbatteries are the better deal.
:-zzz
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Christopher Zach wrote:
> One of the reasons I need MagneCharger so much is that the on-board
> Dolphin charger is not the greatest thing in the world. Max charging
> rate seems to be about 3 amps at 120 volts and 6 amps at 240 volts
> (current is measured at pack at 300 volts).
I believe the Dolphin *is* a PFC charger. It has the same fundamental
current limit as Rich's PFC charger -- it is limited by the voltage and
current rating of the outlet it is plugged into.
However, 3 amps at 300vdc is 900 watts. A standard 120vac 15amp outlet
can deliver up to 1800 watts. So, GM has set up the Dolphin not to draw
the full current rating of a 120vac 15amp outlet. I'll bet you can use a
variac or buck/boost transformer ahead of the Dolphin charger to boost
the AC line voltage about 20%, and thereby get more current out of it to
max out the current rating of the outlet.
I'd put a variac ahead of it, with an AC ammeter on the AC input side.
Crank up the variac until you are drawing just under the circuit breaker
rating of the AC outlet you are plugged into (15 or 20 amps). 120vac x
20amps x 80% efficiency = 1920w, which is 6.4amps at 300vdc!
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> The Sparrow is fast. Just some controls were integrated into the
> controller system to limit the initial torque because all that
> power is going into a single wheel. Last thing you want is for
> the rear wheel to break loose when you are accelerating.
Which wheel drives the Sparrow speedometer?
What does the Sparrow have for brakes?
I'm wondering if it could be retrofitted with traction control, or ABS
brakes. It sounds like the Sparrow desperately needs it!
I have a 2002 VW Eurovan. It has an advanced combined traction control
and ABS brake system VW calls ESP (Electronic Stabilization Program).
Basically, it senses the speed of all 4 wheels, and independently
controls the brakes and throttle for each wheel so none of them slip.
For example, it simulates a limited slip differential by applying the
brake only to the slipping wheel, so the other wheel gets power, and
modulates the throttle so that wheel doesn't spin. Or, if you corner too
fast on slippery pavement, it applies brakes to individual wheels to
prevent a skid.
Such a system could be a wonderful addition to a Sparrow.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Chris,
You may want to go to
http://evchargernews.home.attbi.com/
and add your chargers to the list. This is an actively maintained list
of both inductive and conductive chargers. I don't think there are any
chargers listed in your region, so you'll be the first. They have a
category for "Emergency Charging Locations.�Private (usually
residential) locations that have offered to provide emergency charging."
I use this list to locate chargers in Tucson, although with only about
8 inductive chargers left, there is not much to locate.
Alex Karahalios
On Friday, June 13, 2003, at 06:43 AM, Christopher Zach wrote:
Anyone interested in swapping charger access with me? With these two
chargers I can pretty much range from Bel-Air MD down to GreenBelt MD.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Christopher Zach wrote:
>
> A thought:
>
> One of the reasons I need MagneCharger so much is that the on-board Dolphin
> charger is not the greatest thing in the world. Max charging rate seems to
> be about 3 amps at 120 volts and 6 amps at 240 volts (current is measured at
> pack at 300 volts). Which is pretty weak when compared to the MagneCharger's
> 19 amp ability.
>
> Has anyone used a PFC type charger in a Prizm/300 volt pack? Can it work on
> 110 volts input as well as 220? Can it raise a signal line when the pack is
> charged (this can be used to tell the Dolphin controller to reset it's
> numbers). Can it be equipped with an interlock to keep it from coming on if
> the MC is also on?
>
> Chris
First answer:
A pfc20 will make 5Kw off of 240 Vac 25 amp circuit into a 300+ volt
battery.
Just under 2400 watts from a 120 VAC 25 amp circuit.
Some data from the Watt log from 120 and 24.5 amps gives 8.4 amps at
302.5Vdc thats 2541 watts into the lead.
And from 240Vac and 24.1 amps delivers 17.3 amps at 300.7 Vdc that's
5202 watts.
And Chris this is the PFC20 without a Buckenhancer. The Cheap one.
A PFC50 will double these numbers, and still have change left over.
Clearly a PFC will work on anything from 100 to 240 VAC. It's one of the
main features of the product line.
And the output is good from 12 to 450 VDC, kinda covers most all
possible demands.
External signal line when the charger is done? That can be arainged, the
signal is on the expansion header. I can tell you how.
I would have to have the Dolphin schematics to answer that.
I would use a AC contactor to keep the controller off while charging.
But no I don't support this, since most clients do thier own interlocks
outside of the charger.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
Thanks for your comments.
The Sparrow was well developed, except for mis-management by the Corbins.
That's why is doesn't come with any battery management system or other
refinements. But many Sparrow owners have made improvements to the basic
vehicle, like adding regs, monitoring systems and improved the charger.
Otherwise it's a fairly basic EV - shell with seat/steering/controls,
battery box, controller, dc/dc, charger, motor linked to the drive wheel via
toothed pulley, standard safety features of lights, etc. Most of smarts are
for safety features like disabling the pack (although typically the pack is
not isolated) and cluts-control for start/forward/reverse and low-voltage.
The Sparrow has two front wheels - for steering and balance - and one rear
wheel - for power. The speed sensing is based on a halls sensor on the motor
shaft, so it's based on the rear/power wheel. The parking brake is only on
the rear. All three wheels have disk brakes, with one set of calipers each.
The parking brake is a "balanced" pair of calipers, but the spring tension
is difficult to keep in balance. Basically, there's plenty of room for
improvement.
I personally haven't had any skid problems with braking. Only problem has
been spinout due to lose of traction with the rear wheel. Also, this is the
first rear-wheel car I've owned. Only owned front-wheel Hondas since the mid
1970's. The rear-wheel-drive family cars before then, and rental cars since,
have only been normally driven; i.e. no control nor driving problems.
-Ed
-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Hart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, June 13, 2003 11:23 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Sparrow handling (was 1958 Chevy Truck Conversion)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> The Sparrow is fast. Just some controls were integrated into the
> controller system to limit the initial torque because all that
> power is going into a single wheel. Last thing you want is for
> the rear wheel to break loose when you are accelerating.
Which wheel drives the Sparrow speedometer?
What does the Sparrow have for brakes?
I'm wondering if it could be retrofitted with traction control, or ABS
brakes. It sounds like the Sparrow desperately needs it!
I have a 2002 VW Eurovan. It has an advanced combined traction control
and ABS brake system VW calls ESP (Electronic Stabilization Program).
Basically, it senses the speed of all 4 wheels, and independently
controls the brakes and throttle for each wheel so none of them slip.
For example, it simulates a limited slip differential by applying the
brake only to the slipping wheel, so the other wheel gets power, and
modulates the throttle so that wheel doesn't spin. Or, if you corner too
fast on slippery pavement, it applies brakes to individual wheels to
prevent a skid.
Such a system could be a wonderful addition to a Sparrow.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 09:43 AM 6/13/2003 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The Sparrow has two front wheels - for steering and balance - and one rear
wheel - for power. The speed sensing is based on a halls sensor on the
motor
shaft, so it's based on the rear/power wheel.
Depends on which variation you have. On older DCP equiped Sparrows, the
speedometer sensor is a magnetic pickup off the right front brake disc.
The parking brake is only on
the rear. All three wheels have disk brakes, with one set of calipers
each.
The parking brake is a "balanced" pair of calipers, but the spring tension
is difficult to keep in balance. Basically, there's plenty of room for
improvement.
That's for sure. I'm tempted to look into 1 (or maybe 3) BMW Motorcycle
ABS units.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was looking at the EV1 owner's group and found something interesting.
One person was saying the range of his 97 EV1 on a Lead-Acid pack was only
in the 38-44 mile range between charges. Another was pulling a max of 50
miles with a SOC of under 10% at the end of the run.
My Prizm pulls 42 miles. Running around at 70mph. With an easy 20%+ left in
the pack (according to the E-meter, the Dolphin, and the MagneCharger).
Without any of the fancy design issues Or the fancy body, or the fancy
computer control system (ok, the Prizm is a Dolphin, but it is 94 tech).
Just an AC drive system and a Hawker Genesis pack. Little Hawker batteries
too; off the shelf stuff.
What gives here?
True that with the advanced pack you can get 20% more range in an EV1, and
with a NiMH pack all bets are off (170 miles? Wow). But theoretically I
could get similar range with a Lithium pack in the Prizm, or put an extra 25
13ah batteries under the rear seat.
So what in all those special "billion dollar" enhancements really increased
the range? To me this is looking a bit like the "enhancements" they used to
put into Everex and Compaq computer systems to make them 5% faster than the
competition. Added 50% to the cost of the system, and you'd wind up with a
box that would be totally swamped in 6 months by a new CPU that would make
even the cheapest computer twice as fast.
Was the EV1 a failure in the fact that it pulled people away from just
putting an electric power plant in a popular car body at minimal extra cost?
Curious.
CZ
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--- Begin Message ---
Chris,
When I owned my EV1, with the first generation battery pack, I would
get a range of about 65 miles. The EV1 is very aerodynamic and thus
requires allot less power when traveling at highway speeds. I think
this (and low weight) is where most of the technology went.
Alex Karahalios
On Friday, June 13, 2003, at 11:36 AM, Christopher Zach wrote:
One person was saying the range of his 97 EV1 on a Lead-Acid pack was
only
in the 38-44 mile range between charges. Another was pulling a max of
50
miles with a SOC of under 10% at the end of the run.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Christopher Zach wrote:
> I was looking at the EV1 owner's group and found something
> interesting.
>
> One person was saying the range of his 97 EV1 on a Lead-Acid
> pack was only in the 38-44 mile range between charges.
> Another was pulling a max of 50 miles with a SOC of under 10%
> at the end of the run.
>
> My Prizm pulls 42 miles. Running around at 70mph. With an
> easy 20%+ left in the pack (according to the E-meter, the
> Dolphin, and the MagneCharger). Without any of the fancy
> design issues Or the fancy body, or the fancy computer
> control system (ok, the Prizm is a Dolphin, but it is 94
> tech). Just an AC drive system and a Hawker Genesis pack.
> Little Hawker batteries too; off the shelf stuff.
>
> What gives here?
<snip>
> Was the EV1 a failure in the fact that it pulled people away
> from just putting an electric power plant in a popular car
> body at minimal extra cost?
Hi Chris,
I forget what the range of the Gen1 EV1s was when they were new. Could
this be a case of 5-6 year old batteries wearing thin? There are also
possible differences in how the respective cars' electronics decide what
is the max DOD, basic lead/total weight ratios, etc. And your
off-the-shelf Hawkers are really high quality batteries, probably just
as good or better than the EV1's Panasonics.
To really do an electric car right, you have to start from scratch and
build it as electric. The EV1 got most everything right. If it had
been designed around the same DC components most of us use it would have
been a substantially better car than a typical conversion. The
optimization was very well executed. My guess is that such a car would
have ~95% of the original's range, much better than a conversion. But
there was little magic in the drive system itself. Replacing it with
one of Victor's Siemens systems or your Dolphin would probably bring it
about even with the original's performance.
Chris
BTW, what is your Prizm's pack/total weight ratio?
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At 6:13 PM -0700 6/12/03, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
Neat piece of trivia. With a fixed ratio between the wheels and the
motor is requires virtually the same torque to climb a hill quickly as
it does slowly. There is slightly more torque required to overcome the
higher aerodynamic drag, but the torque required to climb the hill
dominates and that stays the same.
So, in EVs, torque = motor amps. SO your motor amps stay the same
regardless, the only thing that changes is motor volts. Work it
backward through the drive system and this means that climbing fast
requires more battery amps, but has no effect on motor amps and therefor
motor/controller rating.
Thanks Peter.
Many people don't get this point about the torque required to climb a
hill being almost constant with speed. It seems strange, but it's
true.
I have much experience driving fixed gear cars and will take this
trivia one step further with this statement:
For a given gear ratio, it actually takes a larger motor and
controller to climb a hill slowly than it does to climb the same hill
quickly.
While it is true that the peak current rating of the motor and
controller is independent of the speed while climbing a hill, the
heat generated is not. Since heat generated is directly related to
current, and the current is about the same, the slower hillclimb
spends more time creating heat and therefore requires a larger motor
and controller to absorb that heat and to keep from overheating.
My advise when designing a single ratio car is to calculate the
torque and amps required to climb the steepest expected hill for the
expected duration, size the motor and controller to that and not
worry about the other driving modes. They are all less of a stress on
the system than hill climbing. And, if you are pushing the limits of
hill climbing, go up them briskly.
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
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--- Begin Message ---
I suspect if you were put into an EV1 you'd get better range than
your Prizm. You would almost have to get better range, the EV1 has
maybe 1/2 the aero drag.
I've rented EV1's for about 1000 miles of travel (which reminds me, I
need to post my latest EV1 adventure, which includes beating, er, I
mean educating a new Lexus). The early ones I got with about 40 miles
of wakeup range, which went to 60+ with me driving. The last two
rentals, with the newer batteries, had about 60 miles of wakeup
range, which went to 80 miles with my driving. My worst "tank" was
about 50 miles, which was due to about 10 full throttle acceleration
runs. Hmmm, that's giving up about 3 miles of range per stoplight
drag.
--- Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I was looking at the EV1 owner's group and found something
> interesting.
>
> One person was saying the range of his 97 EV1 on a Lead-Acid pack
> was only
> in the 38-44 mile range between charges. Another was pulling a max
> of 50
> miles with a SOC of under 10% at the end of the run.
>
> My Prizm pulls 42 miles. Running around at 70mph. With an easy 20%+
> left in
> the pack (according to the E-meter, the Dolphin, and the
> MagneCharger).
> Without any of the fancy design issues Or the fancy body, or the
> fancy
> computer control system (ok, the Prizm is a Dolphin, but it is 94
> tech).
> Just an AC drive system and a Hawker Genesis pack. Little Hawker
> batteries
> too; off the shelf stuff.
>
> What gives here?
>
> True that with the advanced pack you can get 20% more range in an
> EV1, and
> with a NiMH pack all bets are off (170 miles? Wow). But
> theoretically I
> could get similar range with a Lithium pack in the Prizm, or put an
> extra 25
> 13ah batteries under the rear seat.
>
> So what in all those special "billion dollar" enhancements really
> increased
> the range? To me this is looking a bit like the "enhancements" they
> used to
> put into Everex and Compaq computer systems to make them 5% faster
> than the
> competition. Added 50% to the cost of the system, and you'd wind up
> with a
> box that would be totally swamped in 6 months by a new CPU that
> would make
> even the cheapest computer twice as fast.
>
> Was the EV1 a failure in the fact that it pulled people away from
> just
> putting an electric power plant in a popular car body at minimal
> extra cost?
>
> Curious.
> CZ
>
=====
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The midterm for my online College course required me to take
my exam at the College campus and have with me an exam
booklet called the 'Blue Book' (sold at campus bookstores).
Its odd to have this online course be fearful of online
testing and require on campus exams. It defeats the purpose
of taking an online course. But so goes that English
department's 'Old School' thinking.
The trip to Los Altos Hills to take my exam was in the
evening. It was an easy ride as I was against the traffic
once I got off the Hwy. But I also had an errand before
the exam.
Because the campus bookstore decided to be closed, I did
a bit of frantic driving all over town to bag one of these
'blue books' (supposely a well known item at Colleges).
So, I used up a lot more ahs that usual. If I did not
charge at the College, I suppose I could stop by Otmar's
and mooch some Solar coulombs.
The paper with my permission to 'plug in' at the campus was
still on the books. I fought long and hard for it, so I
regularly remind campus security of it (sometimes they file
it away out of the day-binder).
DChysler donated a GEM to the campus security dept. I had a
quick chat with a young secity type about their new toy. I
think a lot of the 'EV' stuff I talked about went right over
his head, but that's OK. I knew we would talk again after he
had driven the nEV, and caught the EV bug.
...
As I pulled in to the campus parking lot, it was odd that
it was nearly empty. I took full advantage of the vacancies
to park myself right next to the outlets. There are three
5-20 duplex outlets installed for the vending machines that
were there. Each outlet was on a separate 20 amp breaker.
So what is a charging nut to do?
I ran three separate extension cords from my EV to each of
the outlets (one cord per breaker). I had two 120 VAC Zivan
k2's and one PFC-50 (turned down way low) pushing 30 amps
into my 132 V pack at 150 VDC. I would of had more current
but their AC lines are long and skinny (small gauge wire).
I tooled off to my exam at least knowing that I would be
better utilizing my time by both charging in the parking lot
and doing a brain dump at the exam.
Afterward, I think my EV got the better deal. My ahs were
looking a lot better than the grade I think I am going to
get :-o
...
Days later, not to let this 'Blue book' thing catch me
again, I headed to the 'open' campus bookstore to bag one
ahead of time.
As I walked out of the parking lot, I saw the campus
security's GEM parked (?). Returning from my purchase, I saw
the GEM being driven around the lot checking to see who was
going to get the next parking ticket.
I caught up to them. The young security person remembered
'the ol dude'. He was actually happy to see me again because
now he had some nEV questions. We stood in front of his GEM
we chatted. His partner was in training to drive the nEV. He
was bored and wandered off to attend his monster truck (EVs
were not his thing).
The young man mentioned that a morning shift security person
enjoys joy-riding the GEM, but forgets to plug it in for the
late shift. He said he thinks he has that under control as
that guy is to plug it in after his fun. I could see in his
eyes that the recharge time is too long.
I showed him my chargers and told him that he is not limited
to using the wimpy onboard charger. Just put in another outlet
with a more powerful charger, and it will charge much faster.
He mentioned that the GEM's dash battery meter says 'full'
when they first turn it on, but as they drive a bit, the
true state of the battery shows (cheap SOC meter). I showed
him my Crusing control Emeter, and how it is what real EVs
use.
I looked down at the GEM's small front tires and mentioned to
him that one was more worn than the other. He said it was
because the campus road was one way and all you did was turn
left all the way-round.
I said that did not sound right as it should not wear that
fast (they have only had it a few months). I asked if he had
a person to check the tire pressure, water the batteries, or
do maintenance on the vehicle. He said no (?).
I told him the EV basics. He had to get the front tires
rotated, air pressure checked, fully charge the batteries
and add distilled water if the batteries need it. He said
he would check into it. I let him go, as he had to get back
to work, but I doubt if they will get the maintenance done.
...
I see these new nEV users as typical. Not EV knowledgeable
at all. They had no idea where the batteries are and that
their vehicle needs maintenance.
GEMs, like other cheap nEVs for cheap CARB credits, aren't
designed to last even with maintenance. The group 27
batteries they use have a two piece flat cell cover which
does not lend itself to easy watering of the cells. With a
cheap inaccurate SOC meter, the nEV newbie will run the
batteries flat and prematurely kill the pack. Then all of us
will hear their @#$%&ing about how bad EVs are.
I hope all nEV drivers go to the free EAA meetings, and get
the information EAA members can give, before their nEV dies.
:-zzz
=====
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~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
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--- Begin Message ---
Hello all. My electric Pulsar has been working well up until now, and I
need some troubleshooting help with a problem it has. I think I know what
is wrong, but I'd like to find out what you think. Just to review I have
a 1985 Nissan Pulsar 120v DC, 20 buddy-paired Optima YTs, Curtis 1231 controller,
Sevcon Gen II DC/DC, and Link10 (Emeter).
I charged it per normal last night, and was on my way up the hill by my
house to take my son to school. It's a pretty steep hill, so I always take
it in first gear, and go easy on it, never more than 15 mph or 120 or so
amps. When I got to the top of the hill, I heard a slight click or thump
(not very loud), and then I didn't have power anymore. Pressing on the
gas resulted in the start of the whine noise that the Curtis always makes,
but then no noise and no power. I tried it several more times with the
same effect. Link10 reports correct voltage, so I know there is an electrical
circut. I checked the batteries and none were disconnected or smelling
or melted. I tried turning off and on the ignition several times, and turning
off and on the main disconnect. Link10 doesn't seem to show any amps flowing
when I'm trying to go. I looked at the controller and it looks normal--all
wires are connected, no burning or charing. The motor seemed to be connected
just fine from what I could see of it. I even checked my contactor and
it looks fine too.
So, what is the problem? One of my buddy pairs needs to be replaced (which
I was going to do today), but that's all that I know about that might be
awry, and I don't see how this would effect it.
Any ideas or thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
Mark Dodrill
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