EV Digest 2854
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Independent Drive System
by "Shawn Lawless" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: S-10 conversion advise
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: helper controller
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Newbie question
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Newbie question
by "Dave Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: S-10 conversion advise
by "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Wheelmotors
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: A new EV begins
by "tgleeman2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Independent Drive System
by "Mark Thomasson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: adding Air Conditioning
by Andrew King <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: S-10 conversion advise
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: helper controller
by Ben Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) wheel motor
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: wheel motor
by Sam Harper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Independent Drive System
by "Cliff Rassweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: wheel motor
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) Re: A new EV begins
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: S-10 conversion advise
by Seth Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: S-10 conversion advise
by "The Levine Family" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Wheelmotors
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Starting torque
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Wheelmotors
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: wheel motor
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Wheelmotors
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Ampabout
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Sam,
I have used many of the Lemco motors in just the manner you have described
in a wide variety of vehicles. I am very pleased with their performance over
wide rpm ranges.
While I would stop short of calling independent drives a "Holy Grail" I
would say that in most of my applications it has proved far superior to a
single motor/hypoid axle arrangement. Concerning the use of regen as a
braking system; I certainly prefer regen to friction based as a primary
braking system in my vehicle designs. The key to using regen is in the
adaptability of the control system to various vehicle types.
Shawn Lawless
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Harper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2003 2:23 PM
Subject: Re: Independent Drive System
> Lee,
> What about CVTs from an ATV? Those can be had as replacement parts for
> relatively cheap. I'm not really even meaning an enclosed "in wheel"
> solution, just a direct-to-wheel solution. Has anyone used regen a
> primary method of braking? Just curious. :)
>
> -Sam Harper
>
> On Saturday, June 14, 2003, at 03:12 PM, Lee Hart wrote:
>
> > Sam Harper wrote:
> >> Instead of using one main motor with a large controller,
> >> has anyone make a vehicle with 2 or 4 smaller independent
> >> direct-to-wheel motors?
> >
> > Certainly they have been built. Wheel motors are a "holy grail" that
> > bright but naive inventors always seem to pursue.
> >
> >> I was looking at the LEMCO LEM-2X2-126 motor, and I wondered
> >> if two or four of these with two or four smaller controllers,
> >> and CVTs between the motor and wheel, would be better than a
> >> large drive system with motor, transmission, main controller,
> >> differential (if needed).
> >
> > The Lemco motors aren't built to survive the kind of pounding they'd
> > get
> > inside a wheel.
> >
> > Being permanent magnet, they don't have a wide enough torque-speed
> > curve
> > to operate with a fixed gear. Thus, you'd need the CVT.
> >
> > But CVTs are expensive, and have relatively low efficiency.
> >
> > As a rule, one large motor is cheaper, lighter, and more efficient than
> > many small motors. Same for controllers and transmissions.
> > Differentials
> > and driveshafts look hokey, but are actually a pretty good solution.
> > --
> > Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> > 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> > Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> > leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Scenario 1:
> Consistent range in excess of 75 miles on uneven terrain.
> In this case the truck could become my daily commute car. I drive ~60
> miles each way to my Daughter's school---->work.
Seventy-five miles is going to be a challenge. Actually you will want more
reserve range than 25%, to prolong battery life and allow for adverse
weather, detours, and the like. I'd aim for at least 85 miles.
Your choices are to build a "lead sled" like the (in)famous Red Beastie
(over a ton of batteries onboard), or to use advanced batteries. Several
listers are experimenting with nickel-zinc and lithium ion batteries now,
but this is literally the bleeding edge of the technology. I don't
recommend this for a beginning EV hobbyist.
You are on somewhat firmer ground with nicads. They're an established
technology. At least one person on this list is using them for a pickup.
But although they have good reliability and very long life when properly
cared for, they can be more finicky about charging and use than lead
batteries. And they're expensive, so mistakes can be costly. I woudn't
recommend going this route without having someone experienced who can help
you set things up.
So as I see it you should probably look into the lead sled approach for a
first try. You'll obviously need to make some suspension modifications in
addition to your drivetrain conversion. You should also make sure that your
11 year old pickup has NO rust, because you don't want anything that weakens
the frame when you're hauling around this much weight all the time.
> Scenario 2:
> Less range, used as mainly a weekend car, errands etc. would become
> main weekend transportation.
While it might replace only 10% of your driving, I think this is the better
way to start. Build a basic 120 volt or 144 volt conversion and get a few
years' worth of experience with it. You'll learn about EVs' strengths and
weaknesses, and how to care for batteries (most beginners destroy their
first set through inexperience).
By monitoring this list for a couple of years, you'll learn more about how
(and whether) to use nicad, lithium ion, nickel zinc, and any other advanced
batteries that come along. Then eventually you may feel ready to either re-
convert that vehicle, or start with another one to make your long range
daily driver. And who knows, by then you may have another job closer to
home, and your need for a long range vehicle might go away.
If you go this route, why not consider one of the factory pseudo-hybrids
(Prius, Insight, Civic) for your main highway vehicle? That way, you'll be
making at least ^some^ contribution to improved air quality and reduced
petroleum usage. It would certainly be better for the environment than
driving a typical gasser pickup or SUV. Before you reject this idea, take a
good look at the new 2004 Prius; with the back seat folded down, it looks
like it has quite a bit of room for hauling stuff in the back.
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 14 Jun 2003 at 11:48, Ben Bennett wrote:
> I was thinking of something for old people (like me)
> maybe one of those trikes. That way if they pedaled the
> thing would help, making it easy to pedal but they'd still
> get exercise.
Maybe something like the Twike?
http://www.twike.ch/ (in German)
http://www.motobykz.co.uk/Twike/Twike.htm (in English)
OK, it's not cheap. What can I say? Neither is a fine Swiss watch.
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When replying to a posted message/question do I simply
reply via my outlook mail system directly, or do I need to send the
reply some other way?
Shawn Lawless
Yes, that should work properly. This listserv should set the reply-to
address in any emails you get from the list to the list address. Try
replying to this message. If I get it at home, I'll know.
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
-Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Simply use Outlook's "Reply" to any message topic that you wish to
contribute to. The message's To: address will then be shown as
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Outlook by default will "quote" the entire body of
the message you are replying to. A good etiquette is that you clip most of
a large quoted body. "<snip>" is often used to show where you have deleted
stuff.
To start an entirely new topic, click "Create Mail", and send it to the
exact same address: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
That's all there is to it. :)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Orange Juice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2003 11:19 AM
Subject: Newbie question
When replying to a posted message/question do I simply
reply via my outlook mail system directly, or do I need to send the reply
some other way?
Shawn Lawless
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If I were you, I'd forget about scenario 1. Sixty miles with some serious
hill climbing and probably 60+ mph speeds in an S-10 would be
a formidable challenge even for an experienced EV builder/ driver.
I think a commuter EV needs at least 50 % extra capacity. In other
words, to commute 60 miles needs an EV with 90 miles range. That
extra range allows for errands on the way to or from work, detours
around traffic stoppages and slowdowns and construction, route variations
to relieve the boredom of the same old trip. Extra capacity is needed to
allow the batteries to still make the commute after they have lost some of
their capacity due to old age
Tom Shay
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVLIST" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2003 10:13 AM
Subject: S-10 conversion advise
> Hello all,
> New to the list, have been reading up for the last few weeks, and have
> a broad question.
>
> I am about to undertake my first EV conversion. I have a 92 S-10 with a
> dead IC motor. My requirements for the conversion are split into two
> scenarios dependent on attainable range.
>
> Scenario 1:
> Consistent range in excess of 75 miles on uneven terrain.
> In this case the truck could become my daily commute car. I drive ~60
> miles each way to my Daughter's school---->work. At this point I would
> have 220v available for a charge while at work. Work ---->home is ~45
> miles.
>
> The terrain crosses a range of coastal hills from the Sonoma Valley to
> the Napa Valley.
>
>
> Scenario 2:
> Less range, used as mainly a weekend car, errands etc. would become
> main weekend transportation. Would be a lot less uesful, as 90% of my
> driving is back and forth to work...
>
>
> I have reviewed a "kit" conversion, and spoken with another converter
> with a "generic" kit. Neither made me comfortable with their range.
>
>
> I guess my question is, how can I extend the range 10-15 miles? Both of
> these kits seem to be slightly older tech, but very easy and proven
> components. Both seem to reject re-gen, or other "slick" range
> extending tactics.
>
> I have considerable IC engine experience, have restored cars, rebuilt
> motors, done engine swaps, race a Volvo currently, so the hardware side
> of the conversion doesn't't intimidate me.
>
> As far as electrical experience? Well, I have a tendency to let the
> smoke out of things. I can learn, but do not want to make unnecessary,
> expensive mistakes.
>
> Would this be a recommended project for a first time EV'er?
>
> Offline response is ok....
>
>
> Thanks for any help,
>
> Mark Osborne
> Sebastopol, Ca
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does it have to be electric? There are thousands of wheel motors in
service in off-road truck, industrial vehicles, and construction
equipment. They use hydraulic motors, which are small, light, and have o
problem delivering very high torques at low speeds.
You'd need an electric motor driving an oil pump to run them. This again
is standard off-the-shelf technology, used in thousands of fork lifts,
garden tractors, etc.
Hydraulic, high pressure, variable speed, drive pumps are
horrendously expensive. I know of a guy in Australia (Ian Drysdale)
who built a hydraulic, 2WD, 2 wheel steer motorcycle (not electric)
and the website about its construction talks about how expensive the
parts are. He got lucky and found his in an aircraft wrecker's yard.
He priced it out after he got home and it was an 18,500 AUD (~12,400
USD) unit! The piston engines at the wheels weren't cheap, either, as
I recall.
There is one point to consider which may make a hydraulic drive cheap
enough to try. The drive pump Drysdale used was designed to function
like a transmission. It takes a basically fixed input and puts out a
user-variable flow. An electric drive could be much simpler, using a
standard electric pump connected to an EV controller. Personally, I'd
drive both wheel motors off one pump driven by a single
motor/controller combo placed somewhere else in the vehicle. The
other issue is high pressure fittings. The only way to get a
hydraulic drive system to work efficiently is to use high pressure
(3000-4000+ PSI).
I've been thinking about this as a possible drive system for an
electric FF motorcycle or maybe for that three-wheeler that's been
rattling around my head for the last couple of years. It would seem
to be ideally suited to a regen environment. It could certainly work,
I think it just depends on what the parts would cost and whether a
home builder would be skilled enough to produce safe pipes and
fittings.
Oh, and Drysdale's website is:
http://home.mira.net/~iwd/2x2x2/
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
-Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi EVer's,
Gary wrote:
> I expected it to work with no clutch but I didn't expect it to work so
> well... perhaps its just a good gearbox, but I wouldn't hesitate to tell
> anyone that the clutch isn't necessary now.
Well, Gary, I never liked a clutch in an ICE so I surely would never use one
in an EV. My first first Voltswagon EV rat-mobile never had a clutch and
never
needed one.
I used to describe the electric motor effect on my manual transmission as a
long cylindrical weight
attached to the transmission's input shaft. That weight being the armature.
In my case, upshifting
was easier than downshifting. To downshift easily I had to blip the throttle
to slide it into gear.
Easy EVing.
Tom Gleeman
San Diego, CA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Harper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2003 1:23 PM
Subject: Re: Independent Drive System
> Lee,
> ............ Has anyone used regen a
> primary method of braking? Just curious. :)
>
> -Sam Harper
>
You are probably more interested in what people with the big iron have to
say about this, but I use primarily regen on my minibike. Regen stops me
faster than the single rear 'drag on the tire' friction brake, or by
dragging my feet (the emergency brake). This minibike uses a 1 hp PM motor
and a contactor controller. http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/439.html. I am
horse power limited and the motor gets very hot when I drive aggressively.
I guess I have a heavy thumb (the throttle is a thumb switch on the handle
bars). One problem with regen, when driving aggressively with fast stops,
is that it heats the motor even more. My motor current can go to 80 A on
full speed regen stop. The motor's continuous rating is 29 A. Mark T.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Subject: air conditioning
From: Aaron Birenboim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 08:40:47 -0600
Where can I find out about methods for putting Air Conditioning
into an EV.
The best EV air conditioning installation I've ever seen is Ben Graves
VW bus. Since it's a '68 he had to run all the ducting but that's not
what really impresses me.
He's got the compressor belted to the traction motor with the electro
magnetic clutch on the motor shaft.
The brilliant idea he had was to wire the electromagnetic clutch to the
brakes so when he touches the brake pedal the AC cuts in.
He says in stop and go driving around Tampa the AC runs enough to keep
the bus cool but on the highway he has to rely on opening the windows.
--
Andrew King
Ann Arbor Michigan
technology is the answer, what was the question?
NOTE: new local address is andrewaa(at)comcast.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark,
A previous POST let you know, with lead-acid storage,
the range you want is not within its capacity without
going to a 300 V system or a series parallel pack like
the Red Beastie.
When people want an EV, I usually ask them a series of
questions to know their EV needs are:
-How fast do you need to go (65 mph)?
-How far do you need to go (70 mile range)?
-Are you going to climb any mountains or carry heavy
loads (No)?
-What type of charging do you have at home/work/nearby
(240 VAC 40 amp 14-50 outlet at work)?
-How much do you want to spend ($20,000)?
You might see the discussions of li-ion storage on the
EV List. When there are li-ion batteries and chargers at
a price you feel is affordable, you might achieve your
range goals.
As an experienced EV charging person, I have to remind you
that a larger range, means a larger charge time needed to
put the power it back. A 6kw outlet at work is needed at
work and home to fully charge the pack for each day's use.
Which ever storage technology you choose, your requirement
is an outlet and charger that will fully charge in a short
enough time are at work minus 20% for any issues that might
come up ( 8 * .80 = 6.4 hours). Plan to be able to fully
charge in 6.5 hours.
...
If you decide to buy a replacement vehicle, you could
consider a new or used hybrid. ebay
http://search.ebaymotors.com/search/search.dll?GetResult&SortProperty=MetaHighestPriceSort&query=hybrid&from=R8&ebaytag1=ebayreg&siteid=100&s_partnerid=2&categorymap=6000&category0=6000&combine=y&st=2
has a Prius for $7k. But a hybrid is still mostly an ICE,
with all the same problems as an ICE. hybrids are not
Electrics, no matter what the confused media says.
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Maybe something like the Twike?
How do you like that... they stole my idea before I had even
finished thinking it up. Don't you hate when that happens?
--
Always remember you're unique. Just like everyone else.
Ben Bennett
http://home.earthlink.net/~greyhawk200/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Isn't a wheel motor a move in the wrong direction? won't all that
unsprung weight make wheel control a nightmare? ( i guess with enough
lead you can get the ratio of sprung to unsprung back in balance.) BTW
Hydraulic motors and pumps are very inefficient :-( Why not change the
upright to one from a front wheel drive mid size, like a pontic
grand-am. and use half shafts. Isn't torque an issue with wheel motors?
generally requiring all 4 wheels to be done?
how would a wheel motor stand up to road vibration in an EV at highway
speeds?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wheel motors are fairly light. The Lemco LEM-2x2 is only 22 kilos,
with a CVT being approximately 15-20 kilos, even on four wheels you
have less weight than a motor, transmission, drive-shaft, etc. What I
talk about isnt actually an in-wheel or hub motor, but one that is just
directly connected to the individual wheel via a CVT.
-Sam Harper
On Saturday, June 14, 2003, at 07:19 PM, Jeff Shanab wrote:
Isn't a wheel motor a move in the wrong direction? won't all that
unsprung weight make wheel control a nightmare? ( i guess with enough
lead you can get the ratio of sprung to unsprung back in balance.)
BTW Hydraulic motors and pumps are very inefficient :-( Why not
change the upright to one from a front wheel drive mid size, like a
pontic grand-am. and use half shafts. Isn't torque an issue with
wheel motors? generally requiring all 4 wheels to be done?
how would a wheel motor stand up to road vibration in an EV at highway
speeds?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sam,
Take a look at www.tm4.com. Look under transportation for their wheel motor.
I saw a video at EVS14 of a 4 wheel motor car they had built sliding down
and driving up an ice slope. Each wheel motor sensing spin and responding
independently. With 400 ft/lb of torque, regen could be your primary
stopping power.
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Harper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2003 1:04 PM
Subject: Independent Drive System
> Instead of using one main motor with a large controller, has anyone
> make a vehicle with 2 or 4 smaller independent direct-to-wheel motors?
> I was looking at the LEMCO LEM-2X2-126
> [http://www.lemcoltd.com/pdf/60v_graph.pdf] motor, and I wondered if
> two or four of these with two or four smaller controllers, and CVTs
> between the motor and wheel, would be better than a large drive system
> with motor, transmission, main controller, differential (if needed).
> This might also free up more under-the-hood space, and provide a better
> way to make regen a primary method of braking [with friction brakes for
> emergency only]. Any comments? Any example vehicles?
>
> -Sam Harper
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 6/14/03 4:52:15 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< The Lemco LEM-2x2 is only 22 kilos >>
Just a thought, but is there anyway to put bigger brgs in a lemco and mount a
wheel flange to make it into a hub motor? I could see a single sided monoshok
swingarm for MC apps. I don't know about how the gearing would work out tho,
might be too high geared. As I said, just a thought off the top. I usually
just lay down and they go away. Regards, DC.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Tom,
I find upshift a little easier than down but I think its because I have to
wait till the motor sped matches the gearbox speed before it goes in but I
really expected some grinding of the gears and the only time I have done
that is going for reverse when not fully stopped which is a habit I will
have to get out of.
I didn't put the clutch in because it is a huge chunk of weight which would
be compounded by the bearing system needed to properly mount it, as I doubt
my motor or anyone's motor for that matter, has a thrust bearing
specifically designed for the end pressure applied to the motor shaft when
the clutch is applied.
When the motor is surrounded by batteries taking it out to replace some
bearings will be a major undertaking and I was hoping to not even have to
change gears, but retain the luxury of being able to if a steep hill
presented itself. however im glad I did cause it drives much better using
the gears.
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Others have already said more or less what I would tell you so I won't
reiterate. However, no matter which way you go I have three pieces of
advice for you after converting an '85 S10:
1) keep the clutch. you will find people who will argue either side.
In my S10 I was not 100% satisfied without the clutch and so I will
recommend to you that you keep it. Without it you have to allow at a
minimum one second to shift between gears and in my opinion that can be
a safety issue if you need to move quickly. In addition, no matter how
you make the motor to transmission adapter, the transmission pilot
shaft needs to be supported on both ends. Don't take the pilot bushing
out of the system.
2) along those same lines, do not use a Curtis controller in a pickup.
The curb weight of your electric S10 will likely be over 4,000 lbs,
and significantly more than that if you do a Red Beastie style
conversion. A curtis just can't move that much weight quickly enough.
Look for a used DCP controller or if you have deep enough pockets, a
new Zilla.
3) this one is specific for the S10 and other pickups: in a pickup it
is very easy to put the batteries either in or under the bed. I would
first recommend that you put them under the bed as it will greatly help
your CG stay low. Secondly I recommend that you do your best to keep
your batteries as far forward as possible rather than just putting them
all under the bed. My truck had 16 under the bed and only 4 up front
and it was prone to pretty heavy understeer. Also, because there were
batteries located behind the rear axle, in the winter if I started
slipping on snow or ice, the truck would rotate about the rear axle,
not how you would normally expect it to in an ICE vehicle with most of
the weight up front.
My 2 cents worth
Seth
On Saturday, June 14, 2003, at 01:13 PM, Mark wrote:
Hello all,
New to the list, have been reading up for the last few weeks, and have
a broad question.
I am about to undertake my first EV conversion. I have a 92 S-10 with a
dead IC motor. My requirements for the conversion are split into two
scenarios dependent on attainable range.
Scenario 1:
Consistent range in excess of 75 miles on uneven terrain.
In this case the truck could become my daily commute car. I drive ~60
miles each way to my Daughter's school---->work. At this point I would
have 220v available for a charge while at work. Work ---->home is ~45
miles.
The terrain crosses a range of coastal hills from the Sonoma Valley to
the Napa Valley.
Scenario 2:
Less range, used as mainly a weekend car, errands etc. would become
main weekend transportation. Would be a lot less uesful, as 90% of my
driving is back and forth to work...
I have reviewed a "kit" conversion, and spoken with another converter
with a "generic" kit. Neither made me comfortable with their range.
I guess my question is, how can I extend the range 10-15 miles? Both of
these kits seem to be slightly older tech, but very easy and proven
components. Both seem to reject re-gen, or other "slick" range
extending tactics.
I have considerable IC engine experience, have restored cars, rebuilt
motors, done engine swaps, race a Volvo currently, so the hardware side
of the conversion doesn't't intimidate me.
As far as electrical experience? Well, I have a tendency to let the
smoke out of things. I can learn, but do not want to make unnecessary,
expensive mistakes.
Would this be a recommended project for a first time EV'er?
Offline response is ok....
Thanks for any help,
Mark Osborne
Sebastopol, Ca
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QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION
http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/387.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<Others have already said more or less what I would tell you so I won't
reiterate. However, no matter which way you go I have three pieces of
advice for you after converting an '85 S10:>>
One more thing: check http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/geobook.html for an
AC-powered S-10 that just needs a battery pack, also fairly close
(Sacramento).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart asked:
>> Does it have to be electric? ... use hydraulic motors, which are
>> small, light, and have no problem delivering very high torques
>> at low speeds. You'd need an electric motor driving an oil pump
>> to run them. This again is standard off-the-shelf technology,
>> used in thousands of fork lifts, garden tractors, etc.
Michael Hurley wrote:
> Hydraulic, high pressure, variable speed, drive pumps are
> horrendously expensive...
Certainly, any part for aircraft is horrendously expensive. But
hydraulic drive parts are also used in fork lifts and garden tractors.
They are far less expensive.
For example, I pulled out my 2001 Surplus Center catalog (800-488-3407).
Here are a couple of the dozens of hydraulic wheel motors listed:
#9-5389 -- Parker TG0280SS080AGAU Wheel motor with integral brake, 266
rpm at 20 gpm continuous, 7301 in.lbs torque continuous, 9707 in.lbs
torque peak, 3000psi continuous, 4000 psi peak, 68 lbs, $315.99.
#9-3557 -- Ross wheel motor, 252 rpm at 20 gpm continuous, 334 rpm at 25
gpm max, 4502 in.lbs torque continuous at 2000 psi, 7029 in.lbs torque
peak at 3000 psi, 37 lbs, $279.50.
> There is one point to consider which may make a hydraulic drive cheap
> enough to try. The drive pump Drysdale used was designed to function
> like a transmission.
This is pretty common. It lets them use an ICE engine (or electric
motor) with no speed control, and vary the pump displacement as a
continuously variable transmission. With a PM motor, it would allow you
to eliminate the motor controller in an EV.
> The only way to get a hydraulic drive system to work efficiently
> is to use high pressure (3000-4000+ PSI).
True, but such pressures are routine in hydraulics.
Jeff Shanab wrote:
> Isn't a wheel motor a move in the wrong direction? Won't all that
> unsprung weight make wheel control a nightmare? How would a wheel
> motor stand up to road vibration in an EV at highway speeds?
Yes, handling and durability are serious challenges for wheel motors.
> Hydraulic motors and pumps are very inefficient.
They can be. Most applications simply don't care about efficiency. But
when there is a need, they can be as good as electric motors. Prof.
Ernie Parker and his students at the Hennepin Community College
hydraulics lab have built many amazing hydraulically powered vehicles.
He says the best pumps and motors are upwards of 90% efficient.
Sam Harper wrote:
> Wheel motors are fairly light. The Lemco LEM-2x2 is only 22 kilos
The Lemco motors are just plain motors, not wheel motors. But they are
very efficient and light; among the best available in brushed DC motors.
> What I'm talking about isn't actually an in-wheel or hub motor,
> but one that is just directly connected to the individual wheel
> via a CVT.
OK, I misunderstood. I thought you were going to try to put the entire
motor and CVT inside the wheel. Having the motor not part of your
unsprung weight helps a lot.
Have you looked at the McKee "Sundancer"? It has a very clever drive
setup. It used a single motor with a shaft on each end. Each rear wheel
had independent trailing arm suspension. A variable-speed belt drive
coupled each wheel to one end of the motor. The belt provided for
transmission and differential in one step, allowed for suspension
movement without the motor becoming unsprung weight, and you had
redundant belts in case one broke.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> is there any way to put bigger bearings in a Lemco and mount a
> wheel flange to make it into a hub motor?
The Lemco motors are oddly built. They only have bearings at one end, so
the shaft is poorly designed for side loads. The case is just held
together by the magnets, and the rotor assembly is relatively weak; it's
not a good setup for high shaft loads or shock and vibration.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don't two electric motors weigh more than one motor with
transmission? I could pick up my fiesta transmission with one hand,
but can't pick up my Kostov electric motor.
--- "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ...
> Otmar's series-parallel set-up (standard feature of all his
> controllers) achieves the same result as a transmission but weighs
> much less.
> ...
=====
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--- Begin Message ---
Certainly, any part for aircraft is horrendously expensive. But
hydraulic drive parts are also used in fork lifts and garden tractors.
They are far less expensive.
For example, I pulled out my 2001 Surplus Center catalog (800-488-3407).
Here are a couple of the dozens of hydraulic wheel motors listed:
#9-5389 -- Parker TG0280SS080AGAU Wheel motor with integral brake, 266
rpm at 20 gpm continuous, 7301 in.lbs torque continuous, 9707 in.lbs
torque peak, 3000psi continuous, 4000 psi peak, 68 lbs, $315.99.
#9-3557 -- Ross wheel motor, 252 rpm at 20 gpm continuous, 334 rpm at 25
gpm max, 4502 in.lbs torque continuous at 2000 psi, 7029 in.lbs torque
peak at 3000 psi, 37 lbs, $279.50.
Those are the wheel motors, not the variable output hydraulic pump.
It's the pump that was the really expensive part.
True, but such pressures are routine in hydraulics.
I never said they weren't. They are still difficult to manufacture at
home and leak unless done perfectly. I've learned that the hard way.
Burned out the tranny on my Volvo like that. I had the radiator
replaced and apparently one of the high-pressure fittings had been
banged. It was just slightly out of round. Not enough to be visible,
but enough to spew transmission fluid when the car was in drive. The
rest of the time, not a drop. Couldn't tell there was a problem until
the tranny seized. Loss of drive fluid under power could be rather
nasty.
I'm not saying it couldn't or shouldn't be tried. Hell, I want to
try! But it still has difficulties and potential problems that must
be considered.
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
-Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
CVTs are a good idea with ICEs because you can make up for the
(relatively) lousy efficiency of the CVT by keeping the ICE in it's
sweet spot.
Electric motors have much broader sweet spots and the difference between
maximum efficiency and the efficiency through most of the torque range
is pretty small.
CVTs are a BAD idea with electric motors. There are much better
solutions available that are lighter, cheaper, more reliable, and much
more efficient.
On Sat, 2003-06-14 at 16:51, Sam Harper wrote:
> Wheel motors are fairly light. The Lemco LEM-2x2 is only 22 kilos,
> with a CVT being approximately 15-20 kilos, even on four wheels you
> have less weight than a motor, transmission, drive-shaft, etc. What I
> talk about isnt actually an in-wheel or hub motor, but one that is just
> directly connected to the individual wheel via a CVT.
>
> -Sam Harper
>
> On Saturday, June 14, 2003, at 07:19 PM, Jeff Shanab wrote:
>
> > Isn't a wheel motor a move in the wrong direction? won't all that
> > unsprung weight make wheel control a nightmare? ( i guess with enough
> > lead you can get the ratio of sprung to unsprung back in balance.)
> > BTW Hydraulic motors and pumps are very inefficient :-( Why not
> > change the upright to one from a front wheel drive mid size, like a
> > pontic grand-am. and use half shafts. Isn't torque an issue with
> > wheel motors? generally requiring all 4 wheels to be done?
> >
> > how would a wheel motor stand up to road vibration in an EV at highway
> > speeds?
> >
> >
>
--
EVDL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>> #9-5389 -- Parker TG0280SS080AGAU Wheel motor with integral brake,
>> 266 rpm at 20 gpm continuous, 7301 in.lbs torque continuous, 9707
>> in.lbs torque peak, 3000psi continuous, 4000 psi peak, 68 lbs,
>> $315.99.
>>
>> #9-3557 -- Ross wheel motor, 252 rpm at 20 gpm continuous, 334 rpm
>> at 25 gpm max, 4502 in.lbs torque continuous at 2000 psi, 7029
>> in.lbs torque peak at 3000 psi, 37 lbs, $279.50.
Michael Hurley wrote:
> Those are the wheel motors, not the variable output hydraulic pump.
> It's the pump that was the really expensive part.
>From the same catalog:
#9-4927-D -- Delta model PC variable displacement pump, 3500 psi
continuous, 0-37 gpm at 2400 rpm, 0-49 gpm at 3000 rpm max, 50 lbs,
$725.00.
#9-4323 -- New Eaton-Cessna 78343RAL variable displacement tandem pump.
Levers control speed, direction, and dynamic braking of each pump.
Equipped with tow valves on both pumps. 37 gpm at 3600 rpm, 3000 psi
continuous, 4500 psi max, 66 lbs, $999.00.
Note that these pumps are big enough to drive several of the wheel
motors, so the pumps actually cost less than the wheel motors.
>> such pressures are routine in hydraulics.
> I never said they weren't. They are still difficult to manufacture at
> home and leak unless done perfectly.
No question about that. Like anything, you have to know what you are
doing. I'd find me a hydraulics expert before ever tackling a project
like this.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
> IMHO: The use of that meter is like night to day, compared
> to a SOC meter. Putting a cheap SOC meter in any EV is a
> waste of time. Either put a real Emeter in, or not at all.
>
> If an ICE was trying to be sold with a gas gauge that went
> to empty every time the accelerator was pushed and gave
> unreliable readings, customers would complain ('Just put a
> good gas gauge in there!').
I have one of those expanded-scale SOC gauges (just a voltmeter)
in the VoltsRabbit. I in fact do find it quite useful to tell me
the internal resistance of the pack. As we all do, I drive the
same roads more or less everyday. I keep an eye on that SOC
gauge (and an eye on the road, don't want to get cross-eyed) and
going down a given road, just where that SOC gauge is sitting
with a load on the pack, I can pretty much tell how my batteries
are doing. My resolution is down to about 0.5V or so, so if I
haven't used the car for a couple of days, I can really see it.
If my batteries are doing between 6 and 7 on the SOC gauge early
in the drive at 25mph on Magnolia, we're doing well; if they're
there at 6 to 7 after 5-10 miles, I'm getting happier yet! It
still doesn't save me from a cell that has recently become
low-capacity and is going to go off a cliff, but neither does an
E-meter type of gauge (assumes a given A-hr capacity). Nope, the
only way to really tell what a pack will do in the range dept is
to load test it to discharge the batteries, either by driving the
vehicle or loading the pack through a resistor bank. Then you
could almost watch the odometer.
>
> ...
> I had Mike install two battery pulsers in my Blazer EV. I
> have two split across the pack to handle the 132 VDC pack
> (they did not make a 132 VDC battery pulser at that time).
>
> Well, I found one of them is dead (the little red led is not
> blinking like a heart beat), and the other's top is bulging
> like it over heated and fried itself (no heart beat either).
>
> They died after 2.5 years of faithful pulsing their little
> circuits out. I will be removing and not replacing them as
> their use was not an conclusive advantage. I would like to
> hear if others have had pulser failures or success stories.
I could never really tell any difference with the two types of
pulsers I had access to. The first was a 12V pulser that I
walked through the pack, the second was a 96V CANpulse (which
seems to pack a bigger pulse). I've done bimonthly hydrometer
readings and load tests down through the years, and have seen no
significant difference with or without. Same with BATJuice (er,
I should say Battery Automated Transportation's (BAT) battery
additive - forget the technical name); the BATJuice, however, was
good for a ~0.10 drop on the specific gravity (and drop on the
voltage), since we had to replace some of the battery acid with
the Juice (a messy job). Have pretty well decided these are all
in the "magic potion" dept, although I leave the CANPulse in
there for grins.
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
www.geocities.com/chursch/bizcard.bmp
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