EV Digest 2858
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: S-10 conversion advise
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Lowest frequency (was Re: AC vs DC)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Wheelmotors
by "Mark Thomasson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Wheelmotors
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5) Evercel MB80 internal resistance
by Fred Whitridge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Evercel MB80 internal resistance
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) 36 Volt Battery Charger questions from a newbie
by ItalysBadBoy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: 36 Volt Battery Charger questions from a newbie
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Fiero with NiCd's udate
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: 36 Volt Battery Charger questions from a newbie
by ItalysBadBoy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Wheelmotors
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Ampabout
by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: wheel motor
by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Starting torque
by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Evercel MB80 cycling
by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: This is a MUST READ LA Times Article
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) TdS Report #75: Team Profile: "Woodstock", #56
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
18) Re: 1000 amp Emeter wanted
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: CVT and question about clutch
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: New Yahoo Group for Evercel Nichel-Zinc Batteries
by michael bearden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: battery charging
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Wheelmotors
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Ampabout
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Wheelmotors
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: wheel motor
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Emeter (Ampabout)
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: battery charging
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Emeter (Ampabout)
by Alex Karahalios <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: Ampabout
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Re: Evercel MB80 internal resistance
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
> Just to make sure you understand. Regen can extend you range in hilly
> terain...BUT, it can't extend it beyond what you would see in flat
> terrain without Regen. In fact even with Regen your range in hills will
> be less than flat, you just go further in the hills with Regen than
> without.
Yes, I failed to mention that. No hardware will extend your range
beyond that on the flat road at steady speed.
With regen you just save more of what's lost without it, but certainly
not all 100% of it.
> 40 6V GC batteries will give you 240V and weigh about 2400 lbs, making
> for a VERY heavy vehicle. I'm not sure if Victors AC drive will be
> powerful enough on 240V to push that much vehicle up the hills. Victor
> could tell you for sure.
AC will start to live at that voltage. Hard to say about performance,
I'd need to simulate that.
> You might consider using 8V batteries. Normally I wouldn't recommend 8V
> batteries, but Victor's AC setup limiteds the current to what should be
> a safe level for these batteries. 40 8V batteries is 320V and Victors
> AC setup should have plenty of power at this voltage (I'm guessing,
> Victor?)
>
> Perhaps Victor can run some simulations using different numbers of 8V
> batteries. It's possible that 30 might be enough, this would make a
> significant reduction in vehicle weight.
I have good model for AGMs (YT, Hawker), but not flooded.
I can do simulation for YTs and you can guestimate from there.
> Please note that even without advanced batteries, this will be an
> expensive setup.
Around $9k for 45 kW (rated) system.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>
> Rich Rudman wrote:
> > A stator with zero rotational HZ (DC buck mode) will make the
> > drive into a negative torque state, with either positve OR
> > negative rotation. It's a Nice Brake either way.
>
> Suppose the slip frequency is 1 Hz. If the motor is stopped (rotor at 0
> rpm = 0 Hz), you apply +1 Hz to produce +torque and make it start moving
> forward.
> If you're rolling backwards so the rotor frequency is -1 Hz, then you
> have to apply 0 Hz to the stator windings (i.e. DC) to produce +1 Hz
> slip and +torque. Yes, the effect is just like you are applying the
> brakes.
I think you already answered this - instead of applying 0 Hz to get
1 Hz slip in right direction, you apply 1 Hz and non-optimal 2 Hz slip
to still get moving in right direction, and control torque with
the current. With proper control transition from non-optimal slip
to optimal won't be noticeable.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> .........................................
> >
> > The Lemco motors are oddly built. They only have bearings at one end, so
> > the shaft is poorly designed for side loads. .....it's
> > not a good setup for high shaft loads or shock and vibration.
> > --
>
Does this statement apply to the Etek motor?
Motor, LEMCO designed, 24 to 48 volt Etek by Briggs & Stratton, 7/8" keyed
shaft - Item #MT5117
http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=527&product_id=1592&P
HPSESSID=989512863e3ba8e54c915070085ee6df
I'm planning to put one of these on a motorcycle with a sprocket and chain
off the motor shaft. Would you consider this a high shaft load? Thanks,
Mark T.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> What about a simple hydraulic pump, one that can be driven off a
small motor/controller combo?<
How about a log splitter pump? A little bit bigger than the size of your
fist. 2 stage and puts out something like 3500 psi from a 10 hp ICE. I have one
sitting right here on the shelf that only cost me about 150 or so 10 years ago
from Northern Hydraulics. Might have gotten cheaper since then. Darn, never got
around to building that one, and now when I look at it looks like the pump is
stuck from sitting. Sigh, project list just added an item. + now you got me
looking back at the hydrostatic garden tractor conversion I started tinkering
with years ago, shelved that one waiting for a good deal on an ADC 6.7. Good
luck, DC.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello:
Lee described, in his usual lucid style, that internal resistance is
delta V/delta A. But, ummmm, for how long a measurement period and when
in the charge/discharge cycle?
I've just finished cycling my first MB80. The ~8amp discharge followed
by the recommended 11amp CC to 15.8 volts, or 386 minutes if first,
followed by 5amps CC for 60 minutes returned almost exactly the amp
hours removed. I arrived at 386 minutes and 15.8 volts at almost the
same time. Rich: You've been advocating some level of overcharge-- how
much??
Once charged, I discharged at an average of 8.75 amps for one minute at
an average of 14.62 volts. I then screwed in my three new 50 watt "RV"
bulbs, in addition to the three headlights pulling ~8amps, and
discharged at an average of 20.7 amps and 14.31 volts for the next
minute. Delta V is .31, and delta A is 11.95, and delta V/delta A is
.02594 or 25.94 milliOhms. How's my math? How's my grasp of the
subject matter? Is this the initial high resistance Sheer and others
have reported? 25 milliOhms seems awful high especially given Lee's
bench mark of a charged Optima at 3 milliOhms. Should I be sampling
longer? Using higher amperages per Victors recent post/? Help from you
math whizzes and battery gurus appreciated.....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Fred Whitridge wrote:
>
> Hello:
>
..
Delta V is .31, and delta A is 11.95, and delta V/delta A is
> .02594 or 25.94 milliOhms. How's my math? How's my grasp of the
> subject matter? Is this the initial high resistance Sheer and others
> have reported? 25 milliOhms seems awful high especially given Lee's
> bench mark of a charged Optima at 3 milliOhms.
It's rather because it's unbroken in. 25 mOhm is high.
At 50A draw you'd loose 50^2*0.02594=65W which is mostly generated
as a waste heat. Not every watt to the heat, but almost.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello all,
I just got my batteries for my scooter and now I
am looking for a charger for the pack. It will
be a 36 volt pack. The distributor told me these
batteries can take a 15 ah charge. My questions
is.....
what if I get a 36 volt charger that is rated at
10 amps? It will just take longer to charge than
a 15 ah charger right?
****
What if I get a 36 volt charger that is rated at
20 ah charge?
****
I have a charger that I believe is a 24 volt
charger that came with the scooter. There are no
switches for 24 or 36 volts, so this is not an
auto sensing charger correct?
****
What would be some of the things to consider when
looking for a charger?
****
Finally you know where to find a good quality
charger cheap? :-) OK how bout good price?
Thanks for all replys, Allan
=====
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for
Nature cannot be fooled." --- Richard P. Feynman
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Remember the following first rule of disinformation analysis: truth is specific, lie
is vague. Always look for palpable details in reporting and if the picture is not in
focus, there must be reasons for it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 2003-06-16 at 17:03, ItalysBadBoy wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I just got my batteries for my scooter and now I
> am looking for a charger for the pack. It will
> be a 36 volt pack. The distributor told me these
> batteries can take a 15 ah charge. My questions
> is.....
> what if I get a 36 volt charger that is rated at
> 10 amps? It will just take longer to charge than
> a 15 ah charger right?
Yes, correct. Well mostly. It depends on the charger. For example a
15A taper charger starts at 15 amps initially and drops continuously
through the charge cycle. Then there is the two step charger that goes
constant current until battery voltage reaches a certain point and then
holds the voltage constant (and current tapers off) until end of charge.
A 10A two step can charge faster than most 15A taper chargers.
There is also a 3 step charger (best type for sealed lead-acid), and
temperature corrected chargers and ...well you get the point.
> ****
> What if I get a 36 volt charger that is rated at
> 20 ah charge?
As long as it's a two or three step charger and the constant voltage set
point is adjusted correctly for your batteries, then you'll probably be
ok.
> ****
> I have a charger that I believe is a 24 volt
> charger that came with the scooter. There are no
> switches for 24 or 36 volts, so this is not an
> auto sensing charger correct?
Not likely.
> ****
> What would be some of the things to consider when
> looking for a charger?
Well what type of batteries are you using? That's really important to
know when selecting chargers.
Cheers, Pete
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just talked to Jim about the 1984 Fiero
that has 20 SAFT STM-180 batteries.
He get's 55 miles range traveling at 70 MPH
on the interstate. He says it will go
at least 80 MPH and has more pedal to push
it faster. Pretty impressive setup considering
he only paid $2400 including shipping for
30 batteries (he has 10 on standby for backup).
He still has 20 Trojan T-145's with less than
500 miles he wants to sell, so send me an
email if you are interested.
Rod
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Peter,
The batteries I got were HR50-12 from BB Battery.
The specs are here....
http://www.bb-battery.com/productshr.asp
Sounds like I should get the two or three step
charger.
The reason I asked if my charger might be 24/36
volt charger is because this scooter was made to
hold 3 batteries and the controller can be set at
24 or 36 volts.
Allan
=====
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for
Nature cannot be fooled." --- Richard P. Feynman
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Remember the following first rule of disinformation analysis: truth is specific, lie
is vague. Always look for palpable details in reporting and if the picture is not in
focus, there must be reasons for it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you just want the hydraulic motor, and will provide the rest of it
yourself, they are easily available. The Surplus Center catalog I quoted
from (just because it was handy) has literally 100's of styles. Here's
an example to fit your spec:
So, how do I get this wonderful tome? I think I could spend way more
money than is strictly necessary through them. :-)
#9-5485-A -- Von Ruden S-series hydraulic motor. 810 rpm at 17 gpm, 1776
in.lbs torque at 2537 psi continuous, 2309 in.lbs peak. New, 25 lbs,
$203.95.
Hmm. That's just about right. It could work as a drive motor for a
motorcycle well, and 2 would work for a light three wheeler. I wonder
what it's efficiency is. I know some of these can get pretty hot.
This one is easy, because nearly every fork lift has a hydraulic "lift
pump" that mounts directly on an electric motor.
I figured it probably was the easy component. What is the efficiency
of this kind of thing likely to be?
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
-Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Aaron wrote:
At one time, someone on this list described an interesting and
simple SOC meter that gave useful results. It was 2 Analog meters,
one for current, one for voltage, pointed at each other in the same
case....
yea. he's here in ABQ...
http://www.qsl.net//k5lxp/ev/evgauge/evgauge.html
How about something like that for the digital age :-)
Seems like such a device, only computerized and with a nice bar graph
of LEDs would only need to be programmed with the pack voltage and
would figure out the SOC by watching the voltage and comparing it
with the load. Well, the Peukert's exponent would also be helpful,
but actual capacity wouldn't be needed. This is good, as capacity
changes as a pack ages, has been sitting, or the temperature changes.
I suspect the Peukert's exponent also changes (even while discharging
really), so it would be best if that could be figured on the fly.
Neon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oops, tired last night. I forgot to mention; CVTs approach 90% at 1:1
when transferring MAX power. The losses in a CVT are due to friction
and friction remains nearly constant (at a given ratio) regardless of
power. At lower power levels efficiency drops because the losses stay
the same and now represent a larger portion of the input power.
This and the other numbers you have given for a CVT just don't add up
in the real world. The Civic Hybrid CVT automatic couldn't get the
mileage numbers it does if the tranny was tossing out 50% of the
power when your just trying to go down the freeway at 60mph.
Neon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Unlike series-wound, induction machine torque can stay constant and
maximum until 5000...6000 RPM (depends on the voltage), thus often
eliminating need to switch gears.
For street use, RIGHT. For racing use (15 or less seconds on, plenty
of time off) they just jack the voltage way past what the DC motor is
supposed to take. The controller is holding the current down (at
least battery side - power) until around this point.
Actually, why all this worry about rpm - its nothing but gearing.
Power is what moves a vehicle in the end. Horsepower is really simple
- torque (in ft/lbs) times RPM divided by 5252. Yes, all motors and
engines make the same horsepower and ft/lbs of torque at 5252rpm. It
boils down to the peak amps and peak voltage a motor can take (AC or
DC). This will set the power peak, and gearing can match that to the
vehicle and track. The controllers job (AC or DC) is to play the game
so that the peak power is held as long as possible.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For best results, use real currents you will be drawing.
Like 40A and, say, 70A (take delta).
Victor
Or in my case, 200 amps and 400 amps.
If some is good more is better and too much is not enuf (power).
Neon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You can point to the yahoo group url without
reprint permission (the reprint police will
come find me).
If you want to reprint the article, you will
need reprint permission. You can ask LA Times
for a fee, or ask the people mentioned in the
article to ask LA Times for the ability to
allow the article be reprinted. Sometimes,
because they were interviewed, media outlets
allow gratis reprints. Its up to them.
But don't point to the LA Times url. It will
be an old dead link before you know it.
The is the reason I POST the whole piece and
not just the url's of these newswires. My
POSTs will not go dead as the EV List is
archived in a couple of places. People in the
future will be able to see the all the
newswires about EVs.
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
TdS Report #75: Team Profile: "Woodstock", #56
Most of the vehicles and teams that come to the Tour de Sol have a "message",
are reason for being. Sometimes it's as simple as, "We want to win!" Other
times it is something quite different. I asked senior Emily Lewis and advisor
Ken Wells about their bright yellow battery-electric pickup truck, their roles
in the project and its mission.
Ken told me that the vehicle had changed a little bit. "And also our approach
is a little different. We've added 310 Watts of solar panels, from Evergreen
Solar, and we plan to expand that. Plus our approach this year, in terms of
renewabiltiy is that we are charging on `green' electricity. We want to tell
the public how they too can purchase green electricity." The question people
always ask, after "how fast does it go?" and "how far can you drive?", is "how
much does it cost to drive electric?" It used to cost $9 to drive 100 miles on
gasoline. "Using `brown' electricity it's exactly half that. We pay three and
a half cents per kiloWatt-hour more than that for green electricity, but we cut
our pollution by a significant amount. Most people don't know that driving a
mile on gasoline produces more than one and a half pounds of greenhouse gas.
Because electric drive is so much more efficient, driving with electricity uses
less energy and produces less pollution, but if you are burning coal you
produce about 0.6 pounds of pollution per mile. Our green electricity is
produced using landfill gas burned in a jet-turbine generator. Because it is a
biomass fuel we are producing the equivalent of 19 grams of pollution per 100
miles. That's less than the mass of a dime. I think that makes it one of the
cleanest vehicles here at the Tour."
So how do they arrange for only the electrons from that jet-turbine generator
to wind up in Woodstock? "That's a beautiful question. And I've figured out
an analogy," said Ken. "It's just like when I put my pay check into a Boston
bank; I can still use my ATM card in Philadelphia. Now, I know it is not the
same bills, but I know it is my money and it is still green. And that's
exactly the same way that the green electricity gets distributed. It is put on
the power grid in some location, I get a tradable, renewable certificate for
that and no matter where I am I can make a withdrawal from that deposit." (And
I always thought they somehow painted the electrons green and sorted them with
a laser.)
"This truck has been the first move in expanding the environmental education at
our school," added Ken. "We just started an environmental chemistry coarse for
next year, which I am psyched to be teaching. And we are partnering with
Evergreen Solar and the Massachusetts Technology Collaborative to build an
experimental 50 kiloWatt solar array on our school to back-feed the grid. We
are getting our school and entire community involved in both the educational
and the actual production of green electricity."
"I was dragged into this project," said Emily, "because I love public relations
and stuff like that. They needed someone who wanted to do PR and not figure
out how to install 24 batteries in a fairly small pickup truck. There are 20
people in the team picture, but we have some people who just come in and out.
The core of the team is maybe 6 or 7, mainly seniors. We are trying to get the
younger people to take over for us when we leave. It's a great team. A lot of
people who know a whole bunch of stuff and willing to do just about anything.
We learned to weld, wiring, crunching numbers." The club is extracurricular
that mostly meets in Sunday.
Woodstock gets used around the campus. "We drive it for everyday commuting
purposes. Last summer we took it to a transportation festival at Pine Manor
College. We were parked right next to the Blackhawk helicopter." Ken uses it
as his daily driver, to demonstrate its practicality. He makes hardware runs
for the theater department, takes his daughter to school, and the usual stuff.
Vehicle Name Woodstock
Vehicle Number 56
Category BATTERY ELECTRIC VEHICLES (BEV)
vehicle type category PbA
Team Name St. Mark's School
No People in Project 20
Time to Build 2.5 yrs
Who Built club
part of school curriculum? No
Vehicle Manufacturer Ford
Vehicle Model Year 1994
Vehicle Type Class Light Duty (car, truck, van)
Vehicle Type Division Prototype
Vehicle Type Model Ranger XL
Energy Storage Manufacturer Trojan
Energy Storage System PbA
Battery Trojan/PbA
Plug Type 5-30P
Conversion Conversion
Range miles 90
Program blurb St. Mark's School students built "Woodstock" as
a
BEV and participated in the Tour de Sol for the
first time last year. This year's team is
composed of members from the St. Mark's EV Club
and the Boyertown Museum of Historic Vehicles.
Woodstock's energy comes from its Evergreen Solar
panels and from ReGen, renewable grid electricity
produced by Sun Power Electric.
- - - -
The complete set of Tour de Sol Reports for 2003 can be found at:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2003
The complete set of past Tour de Sol Reports can be found at:
http://www.FovealSystems.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
- - - -
The above is Copyright 2003 by Michael H. Bianchi.
Permission to copy is granted provided the entire article is presented
without modification and this notice remains attached.
For other arrangements, contact me at +1-973-822-2085 .
- - - -
For more on the NESEA Tour de Sol, see the web page at
http://www.TourdeSol.org
- - - -
Official NESEA Tour de Sol information is available from the sponsor,
the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association (NESEA) at
413 774-6051 , and 50 Miles Street, Greenfield, MA 01301 , and
[EMAIL PROTECTED] . All media enquiries should be addressed to ...
Jack Groh
Tour de Sol Communications Director
P.O. Box 6044
Warwick, RI 02887-6044
401 732-1551
401 732-0547 fax
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Why not use a standard Emeter with a shunt that is
1/10th the size?
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
https://shop.sae.org/automag/features/transopt/page5.htm
Ah, toroidal CVTs. I remember reading about those a few years back. I
was wondering what happened to them. Does anyone produce these as
aftermarket units or for snowmobiles, etc.? Or is it only Nissan?
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
-Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen wrote:
> Well, I won't be joining [I don't do Yahoo groups], but if anyone sees any
> messages appropriate to me, please send them my way.
>
I'm with Sheer on this one...Yahoo...No thanks.
Michael B.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Garry Stanley wrote:
> I have the original charger that went with the forklift and it is
> set for an 11-hour cycle... The batteries are... rated at 135 amp
> hours and the charger puts out 30 amps. After a few hours of
> charging the amp draw drops down to 20 amps and the batteries are
> warming and even though sealed are making a nice bubbling noise.
Not good!
Are these true sealed AGM or gel-cell batteries? If so, there is no free
liquid in them; it is all absorbed in the gel or glass mats. The vents
are totally sealed. They should not be venting or making "bubbling"
sounds. If they do, you are overcharging.
The other type battery is "low maintenance". These are not sealed
batteries; they are plain old flooded batteries with calcium alloy
plates so they don't gas as much. The electrolyte is still free liquid
(you can see it slosh if the case is translucent). The vents are not
really sealed; just closed so you can't add water. This type of battery
is widely used in modern cars as their SLI (starting-lighting-ignition)
battery. They will not hold up long in deep-cycle EV use. They *will*
gas and bubble when charged. Basically, they have a fixed amount of
excess water inside, and the battery is shot when you used it up.
A 135 amphour battery is fully charged when the current falls under 2%
of 135ah = 2.7 amps at a charging voltage of about 2.5v per cell (7.5v
for a 6v battery, 15v for a 12v battery, etc.).
> I recharged for 2 hours on Friday and again added another 2 hours
> today, at the end of today's charge the amps were down to 15 amps.
Without knowing the voltage, the charging amps is meaningless. Measure
the voltage *and* current; from this we can estimate their state of
charge, and whether or not you are overcharging.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael Hurley wrote:
>> The Surplus Center catalog...
> So, how do I get this wonderful tome?
Call them at the phone number I posted earlier (800-488-3407) or write
to them at 1015 West "O" Street, P.O. Box 82209, Lincoln NE 68501 and
ask for a catalog. Note that they aren't the best or only supplier; just
one whose catalog I happened to have handy.
>>#9-5485-A -- Von Ruden S-series hydraulic motor...
> I wonder what it's efficiency is. I know some of these can get
> pretty hot.
In hydraulics, efficiency is often ignored because you have all that oil
circulating to act as a coolant. They just put an oil cooler somewhere
in the loop.
As in electric motors, you have garbage-grade hydraulics that barely
last a week and have horribly efficiency, all the way up to
ultra-precision high-performance parts that NASA would be proud to put
in spacecraft. You really need someone who knows hydraulics to help you
pick (not me; I just know enough to be dangerous :-)
>> This one is easy, because nearly every fork lift has a hydraulic
>> "lift pump" that mounts directly on an electric motor.
> I figured it probably was the easy component. What is the efficiency
> of this kind of thing likely to be?
Fork lift components aren't too bad efficiency wise, but they are HEAVY.
Weight is a virtue in forklifts, and they want something that will last
for decades of continuous use. So the stuff is drastically overbuilt and
very conservativly rated.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
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--- Begin Message ---
Paul G wrote:
> How about something like that for the digital age :-)
> Seems like such a device, only computerized and with a nice bar graph
> of LEDs would only need to be programmed with the pack voltage and
> would figure out the SOC by watching the voltage and comparing it
> with the load. Well, the Peukert's exponent would also be helpful,
> but actual capacity wouldn't be needed.
Yes. It's called an E-meter (now renamed the Link 10).
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Call them at the phone number I posted earlier (800-488-3407) or write
to them at 1015 West "O" Street, P.O. Box 82209, Lincoln NE 68501 and
ask for a catalog. Note that they aren't the best or only supplier; just
one whose catalog I happened to have handy.
In looking around online, I've discovered they also have a website.
http://www.surpluscenter.com/
In hydraulics, efficiency is often ignored because you have all that oil
circulating to act as a coolant. They just put an oil cooler somewhere
in the loop.
As in electric motors, you have garbage-grade hydraulics that barely
last a week and have horribly efficiency, all the way up to
ultra-precision high-performance parts that NASA would be proud to put
in spacecraft. You really need someone who knows hydraulics to help you
pick (not me; I just know enough to be dangerous :-)
I figured as much. I'm pretty dangerous myself. Heh.
Fork lift components aren't too bad efficiency wise, but they are HEAVY.
Weight is a virtue in forklifts, and they want something that will last
for decades of continuous use. So the stuff is drastically overbuilt and
very conservativly rated.
Well, that could be put to use. Get something underrated somewhat,
and use it a little above spec. Kinda like my 96V 8" ADC I will be
running at 144V. OK, that's a bit more than a little above spec!
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
-Real Genius
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--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 2003-06-16 at 08:06, Paul G wrote:
> >Oops, tired last night. I forgot to mention; CVTs approach 90% at 1:1
> >when transferring MAX power. The losses in a CVT are due to friction
> >and friction remains nearly constant (at a given ratio) regardless of
> >power. At lower power levels efficiency drops because the losses stay
> >the same and now represent a larger portion of the input power.
>
> This and the other numbers you have given for a CVT just don't add up
> in the real world. The Civic Hybrid CVT automatic couldn't get the
> mileage numbers it does if the tranny was tossing out 50% of the
> power when your just trying to go down the freeway at 60mph.
First of all we were talking about cheaper belt driven CVTs not the metal link CVT
that Honda uses. Secondly Honda's CVT is no where near as efficient as a manual
transmission, it's main advantage is that it can keep the ICE at peak efficiency and
this makes of for the lack of efficiency in the CVT.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I POSTed about the funky SOC meter Solar Electric
provided, then about my Cruising Equipment Emeter.
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=%22Cruising+Equipment+emeter%22
Chuck POSTed about his analog meters, and Paul
asked for a digital version. Which Lee POSTed
about Link 10
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=%22Link+10%22+battery
which was formally known as Cruising Equipment Emeter.
We have come full circle.
My meter has the RS-232 port on the back. When looking
at some of the pages for link 10, I see a cable offered.
I assume that same cables and programs will work with
my older Emeter (?).
On the RAV4 EV discussions, members have pooled their
resources to understand the Toyota RAV4 EV port
protocols and are receiving data on their palm (pack
temp, voltage, etc.)
Some EV1-Club members had mounted a palm cradle on
dash to use a palm to gather data on their EV. Looks
like former EV1 drivers are working on doing the same
with their RAV4 EVs.
Wouldn't it be nice to have a cradled palm on one's EV
dash cabled up to your emeter?
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lee,
These are definitely sealed and probably gell type, at 33 kg each I haven't
shaken one to see if it sloshes inside though.
They were not venting but it sure sounded like they were bubbling away
inside.
After charging yesterday and letting them sit I measured the voltage today
and pack voltage was 76 volts.
Each cell measured on average 2.12 with many at 2.13 and some at 2.14 with a
few low ones at 2.11 volts.
I guess all that remains is to see if they go further than 10 kilometers
now.
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
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--- Begin Message ---
Bruce,
The same person (Peter Ohler) who did the EV1Dash program has also done
one for the emeter/link10. See
http://www.ohler.com/palm/EVDash/index.html
Alex Karahalios
On Monday, June 16, 2003, at 09:59 PM, Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
Wouldn't it be nice to have a cradled palm on one's EV
dash cabled up to your emeter?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yesterday, I wired up all the small smart chargers,
but found one casualty. One bank of one the modules
was faulty. Its led display when to green immediately.
I proved it was bad by moving the wires to a known
good battery: same symptoms.
I pulled that module out, but left the others in. I
turned them on and there led displays showed various
stages of charge, except for the 12 V aux battery.
Its display quickly went to green led.
Though I knew the 12 VDC aux battery was fully charged,
I wanted to prove that bank was working and the charger
would cycle if the battery voltage went too low.
I turned the headlights on. They draw about 30 amps off
of a small garden tractor aux battery (a $15 el cheapo
Exide U1)
http://www.exideworld.com/products/lawn_garden/exide_cutting_edge_lg_specs.html
A s soon as the voltage dropped, the bank turned on with
all red leds on. I turned the head lights off, and with
in a short time the red leds turned off one by one,
until the green led showed. So this is just as I
suspected.
My aux battery will be mostly charged, and will not need
charging (thus not part of the AC current draw). It is
also nice to know, if I forget the dome light on, I
won't find a dead aux battery in the morning (I can't
start the EV unless I have the 12 V aux up - pre-charge
voltage).
I let the rest of the charger do their job over night.
I awoke to find all chargers had green led displays.
Yes!
Module charger temperatures were warm, but not hot.
Their sheet metal frames were cooler than the tops of
the modules. Perhaps the frames are a built in heat
sink.
I called the charger company's 800 number. It got me
through right away. After giving the charger's serial
number, they shipped me a replacement, with a prepaid
ups tag for the defective one (no questions asked,
that is good service).
I asked if my striping back of their cable insulation
to make the leads reach the battery terminals was a
violation of the warranty. He said no problem.
I also let him know that I wasn't using the chargers
for boat trolling batteries. I explained that EV use
the same batteries. I was proving that their smart
chargers would charge EV batteries much better and
this could be an additional market for them.
The sales rep was pleased, and gave me his contact
info. It might be possible to get these chargers
directly from him at a better price (wow, I thought
the ebay price was pretty good, a cheaper price would
be even better).
...
I had an appointment, so I headed South on Hwy 101
to Cupertino. I left in plenty of time, as I wanted
to explore my former work site (note the changes).
I entered the far end of the site to tour around.
Passing bldg 42, I saw an Electric cart plugged into
one of the mcs-100 charging heads. I headed over to
the other side of the site.
Sadly, those charging heads had been removed as
part of site renovations (they were tearing up bldg
44 again).
I checked out the original 14-50 and 5-20 outlet I
had requested in the 1990's. They were on, but the
voltages were too high (270 VAC and 150 VAC).
I went back to the other side of the site. Just as I
was about to enter that parking lot, a RAV4 EV zipped
in front of me. We pulled in to the EV parking spots
together.
The RAV4 EV driver ran the AVCON cable through his
front passenger window. He was using an AVCON adapter
to power the TAL small paddle charge in the back seat.
I plugged into the mcs-100's 14-50. I set my PFC-50
to push 36.6 DC amps into my pack at 150 VDC.
We chatted for a while about EVs, RAV4 EV discussion
list and group, and upgrading EV chargers. Sadly, the
CEO has money for bldgs but not to do any EV charging
work. The two employees are trying to upgrade the old
LPI to a TAL. I expressed that it would more successful
if they use existing conductive heads that were removed.
Not only would it not cost much, but in the long term
conductive it the way to go. But they are RAV4 EV drivers
and they like their TALs.
We parted ways, he to his work load, and me to my
appointment. I came back after an hour to find the
PFC-50's blue led blinking and the current tapering.
My Emeter had gained all the amp hours used to drive
there.
This let me cruise the area checking out Silicon Valley
stores for hi-tech toys before the smooth trip back.
Even the gotta-get-home traffic-rush cooperated.
I look forward to fully testing my pack using the
small smart chargers. I want to know their true output
current, power factor correction, THD%, how much AC
current they draw, and how warm they get.
:-zzz
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The overcharge is 4 AHr for a 100% DOD cycle. I have not done any half
cycles to see if the optimal number is proportional or fixed.
Internal resistance on my MB100 is 8 milliohms when fully charged
deteriorating to 15 milliohms when fully expended. I believe you are seeing
break in numbers. Run more cycles and see if it improves.
I was using 60 amps and 160 amps for test currents.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Whitridge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 3:16 PM
Subject: Evercel MB80 internal resistance
> Hello:
>
> Lee described, in his usual lucid style, that internal resistance is
> delta V/delta A. But, ummmm, for how long a measurement period and when
> in the charge/discharge cycle?
>
> I've just finished cycling my first MB80. The ~8amp discharge followed
> by the recommended 11amp CC to 15.8 volts, or 386 minutes if first,
> followed by 5amps CC for 60 minutes returned almost exactly the amp
> hours removed. I arrived at 386 minutes and 15.8 volts at almost the
> same time. Rich: You've been advocating some level of overcharge-- how
> much??
>
> Once charged, I discharged at an average of 8.75 amps for one minute at
> an average of 14.62 volts. I then screwed in my three new 50 watt "RV"
> bulbs, in addition to the three headlights pulling ~8amps, and
> discharged at an average of 20.7 amps and 14.31 volts for the next
> minute. Delta V is .31, and delta A is 11.95, and delta V/delta A is
> .02594 or 25.94 milliOhms. How's my math? How's my grasp of the
> subject matter? Is this the initial high resistance Sheer and others
> have reported? 25 milliOhms seems awful high especially given Lee's
> bench mark of a charged Optima at 3 milliOhms. Should I be sampling
> longer? Using higher amperages per Victors recent post/? Help from you
> math whizzes and battery gurus appreciated.....
>
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