EV Digest 2859
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: battery charging
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Re: Emeter (Ampabout)
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Emeter (Ampabout)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) RE: Emeter (Ampabout)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5) RE: Emeter (Ampabout)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
6) Re: Fiero with NiCd's udate
by Aaron Birenboim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Fiero with NiCd's udate
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: 36 Volt Battery Charger questions from a newbie
by "Mark Thomasson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Ampabout
by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Ampabout
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: battery charging
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Evercel MB80 internal resistance
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: battery charging
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Ampabout
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Ampabout
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: 36 Volt Battery Charger questions from a newbie
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Ampabout
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
18) Re: 36 Volt Battery Charger questions from a newbie
by ItalysBadBoy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: 36 Volt Battery Charger questions from a newbie
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Evercel MB80 internal resistance
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Starting torque
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Evercel MB80 internal resistance
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: EV icecream truck
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) All the more reason for clean electric cars.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Cheap bad boy charging
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) RE: All the more reason for clean electric cars.
by "Brian Hay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: New Yahoo Group for Evercel Nichel-Zinc Batteries
by Gordon Niessen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) TdS Report #76: Drive To Survive: "Intergalactic Hydrogen"
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Begin Message ---
At 05:25 PM 17/06/03 +1200, you wrote:
These are definitely sealed and probably gell type, at 33 kg each I haven't
shaken one to see if it sloshes inside though.
They were not venting but it sure sounded like they were bubbling away
inside.
Garry
Was this a bubbling sound or a ticking sound?
Ticking is the pressure vent caps relieving, very bad news for a gel
battery (or most sealed types).
If they are gel type, you need a lower charge rate than for wet or AGM
lead-acids.
Good luck
James Massey
Across the Tasman
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I connected my Palm M130 to the Emeter
and was very pleased with the results.
It displays voltage in larger easy to read
numbers. Battery current is slightly smaller, but
still easy to read. It also display kWhr and Amp*Hrs.
The numbers appearance changes depending on
voltage/current.
Over 200 Volts and the background is black with clear
numbers. When it drops below 200 Volts the background
turns clear and the numbers turn black. When
the voltage drops below 175 Volts the numbers show
up lighter (grey-black).
I'm not sure how the numbers would appear on a
lower/higher voltage pack.
--- Alex Karahalios <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Bruce,
>
> The same person (Peter Ohler) who did the EV1Dash
> program has also done
> one for the emeter/link10. See
>
> http://www.ohler.com/palm/EVDash/index.html
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ron,
The numbers appear similar, depending on what values you set for the various
thresholds. I'm using the EVPalm on my Sparrow and it works great.
BTW, not that the EVPalm only works on true Palms. It is not compatible for
Handsprings due to the code used for reading the serial port. But it's
definately plug-n-play. Great for data capture, wonderful playback and graph
display of data, and you can save specific sessions. Great work, Peter!
If you don't have a Palm, just pick one up on ebay. I got an m100 with
serial cable for about $20. Make sure whatever Palm you use, pick a plastic
case. The output from the Emeter still has links back to the pack voltage,
due to the Emeter wiring.
-Ed Thorpe
-----Original Message-----
From: Rod Hower
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 6/17/03 5:32 AM
Subject: Re: Emeter (Ampabout)
I connected my Palm M130 to the Emeter
and was very pleased with the results.
It displays voltage in larger easy to read
numbers. Battery current is slightly smaller, but
still easy to read. It also display kWhr and Amp*Hrs.
The numbers appearance changes depending on
voltage/current.
Over 200 Volts and the background is black with clear
numbers. When it drops below 200 Volts the background
turns clear and the numbers turn black. When
the voltage drops below 175 Volts the numbers show
up lighter (grey-black).
I'm not sure how the numbers would appear on a
lower/higher voltage pack.
--- Alex Karahalios <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Bruce,
>
> The same person (Peter Ohler) who did the EV1Dash
> program has also done
> one for the emeter/link10. See
>
> http://www.ohler.com/palm/EVDash/index.html
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry Ron - ment to send to group. Will resend.
-----Original Message-----
From: Ed Thorpe
To: 'Rod Hower '; '[EMAIL PROTECTED] '
Sent: 6/17/03 5:49 AM
Subject: RE: Emeter (Ampabout)
Ron,
The numbers appear similar, depending on what values you set for the
various thresholds. I'm using the EVPalm on my Sparrow and it works
great.
BTW, not that the EVPalm only works on true Palms. It is not compatible
for Handsprings due to the code used for reading the serial port. But
it's definately plug-n-play. Great for data capture, wonderful playback
and graph display of data, and you can save specific sessions. Great
work, Peter!
If you don't have a Palm, just pick one up on ebay. I got an m100 with
serial cable for about $20. Make sure whatever Palm you use, pick a
plastic case. The output from the Emeter still has links back to the
pack voltage, due to the Emeter wiring.
-Ed Thorpe
-----Original Message-----
From: Rod Hower
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 6/17/03 5:32 AM
Subject: Re: Emeter (Ampabout)
I connected my Palm M130 to the Emeter
and was very pleased with the results.
It displays voltage in larger easy to read
numbers. Battery current is slightly smaller, but
still easy to read. It also display kWhr and Amp*Hrs.
The numbers appearance changes depending on
voltage/current.
Over 200 Volts and the background is black with clear
numbers. When it drops below 200 Volts the background
turns clear and the numbers turn black. When
the voltage drops below 175 Volts the numbers show
up lighter (grey-black).
I'm not sure how the numbers would appear on a
lower/higher voltage pack.
--- Alex Karahalios <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Bruce,
>
> The same person (Peter Ohler) who did the EV1Dash
> program has also done
> one for the emeter/link10. See
>
> http://www.ohler.com/palm/EVDash/index.html
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ron,
The numbers appear similar, depending on what values you set for the
various thresholds. I'm using the EVPalm on my Sparrow and it works
great.
BTW, not that the EVPalm only works on true Palms. It is not compatible
for Handsprings due to the code used for reading the serial port. But
it's definately plug-n-play. Great for data capture, wonderful playback
and graph display of data, and you can save specific sessions. Great
work, Peter!
If you don't have a Palm, just pick one up on ebay. I got an m100 with
serial cable for about $20. Make sure whatever Palm you use, pick a
plastic case. The output from the Emeter still has links back to the
pack voltage, due to the Emeter wiring.
-Ed Thorpe
-----Original Message-----
From: Rod Hower
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 6/17/03 5:32 AM
Subject: Re: Emeter (Ampabout)
I connected my Palm M130 to the Emeter
and was very pleased with the results.
It displays voltage in larger easy to read
numbers. Battery current is slightly smaller, but
still easy to read. It also display kWhr and Amp*Hrs.
The numbers appearance changes depending on
voltage/current.
Over 200 Volts and the background is black with clear
numbers. When it drops below 200 Volts the background
turns clear and the numbers turn black. When
the voltage drops below 175 Volts the numbers show
up lighter (grey-black).
I'm not sure how the numbers would appear on a
lower/higher voltage pack.
--- Alex Karahalios <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Bruce,
>
> The same person (Peter Ohler) who did the EV1Dash
> program has also done
> one for the emeter/link10. See
>
> http://www.ohler.com/palm/EVDash/index.html
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rod Hower wrote:
I just talked to Jim about the 1984 Fiero
that has 20 SAFT STM-180 batteries.
He get's 55 miles range traveling at 70 MPH
on the interstate. He says it will go
at least 80 MPH and has more pedal to push
it faster. Pretty impressive setup considering
he only paid $2400 including shipping for
30 batteries (he has 10 on standby for backup).
He still has 20 Trojan T-145's with less than
500 miles he wants to sell, so send me an
email if you are interested.
Rod
Newbie question:
I thought that NiCd was WAAAAAY more expensive than lead.
$80/battery delivered? Isn't lead similaraly priced?
How much are Trojan T-145's?
If NiCd cost can be close to lead.... why isn't everybody
using NiCd? I'm still trying to learn more about batteries...
but don't NiCd have a greater energy storage/weight ratio?
Is their volume larger? Lifetime shorter?
I thought NiCd actually enjoy being deep-cycled.
Could this be a bad thing for an EV. In typical use,
I'd want to burn less than 50% of my range and top-off
every night. With NiCd would I be advised to drive
for 2-3 days and re-charge when they are low (memory)?
I could see where that might not be convenient.
--
Aaron Birenboim | This space available!
Albuquerque, NM |
aaron_at_birenboim.com |
>http://aaron.boim.com |
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 2003-06-17 at 06:07, Aaron Birenboim wrote:
> Rod Hower wrote:
> > I just talked to Jim about the 1984 Fiero
> > that has 20 SAFT STM-180 batteries.
> > He get's 55 miles range traveling at 70 MPH
> > on the interstate. He says it will go
> > at least 80 MPH and has more pedal to push
> > it faster. Pretty impressive setup considering
> > he only paid $2400 including shipping for
> > 30 batteries (he has 10 on standby for backup).
> > He still has 20 Trojan T-145's with less than
> > 500 miles he wants to sell, so send me an
> > email if you are interested.
> > Rod
>
> Newbie question:
>
> I thought that NiCd was WAAAAAY more expensive than lead.
> $80/battery delivered?
They are. He walked into a sweet deal on some slightly used batteries.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you want to go low budget, get a single automatic 12 volt deep cycle
battery charger. Mine is 10A and cost $34 at the local auto parts store.
When its finishes charging and shuts off, a bright green light comes on
telling me it's time to connect it to the next battery. Buy three if you
want a fast charge. I never have to worry about balancing. Mark T.
----- Original Message -----
From: "ItalysBadBoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 9:17 PM
Subject: Re: 36 Volt Battery Charger questions from a newbie
> Hello Peter,
>
> The batteries I got were HR50-12 from BB Battery.
> The specs are here....
> http://www.bb-battery.com/productshr.asp
>
> Sounds like I should get the two or three step
> charger.
>
> The reason I asked if my charger might be 24/36
> volt charger is because this scooter was made to
> hold 3 batteries and the controller can be set at
> 24 or 36 volts.
>
> Allan
>
.................................
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul G wrote:
How about something like that for the digital age :-)
Seems like such a device, only computerized and with a nice bar graph
of LEDs would only need to be programmed with the pack voltage and
would figure out the SOC by watching the voltage and comparing it
with the load. Well, the Peukert's exponent would also be helpful,
but actual capacity wouldn't be needed.
Lee wrote:
Yes. It's called an E-meter (now renamed the Link 10).
True, but I'm thinking of something smarter. If voltage is compared
to load it seems possible to figure out the capacity on the fly. Then
the capacity doesn't have to be programmed in; it will adjust the
capacity based on what the pack is showing, giving built in pack
capacity adjustment (so it will figure out when the pack has only 50%
of its capacity left).
Neon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 2003-06-17 at 07:54, Paul G wrote:
> >Paul G wrote:
> >> How about something like that for the digital age :-)
> >> Seems like such a device, only computerized and with a nice bar graph
> >> of LEDs would only need to be programmed with the pack voltage and
> >> would figure out the SOC by watching the voltage and comparing it
> >> with the load. Well, the Peukert's exponent would also be helpful,
> >> but actual capacity wouldn't be needed.
>
> Lee wrote:
> >Yes. It's called an E-meter (now renamed the Link 10).
>
> True, but I'm thinking of something smarter. If voltage is compared
> to load it seems possible to figure out the capacity on the fly. Then
> the capacity doesn't have to be programmed in; it will adjust the
> capacity based on what the pack is showing, giving built in pack
> capacity adjustment (so it will figure out when the pack has only 50%
> of its capacity left).
>
Except you can't figure out SOC based on voltage and load without
knowing capacity, internal resistance, peukert, etc.
A fully charged 4AH battery might should the same voltage under a 10A
load as a 200 AH fully discharged battery. How will your meter figure
out which one it's connected to?
Granted you could figure out capacity, etc by watching the batteries
through several charge/discharge cycles. The information it will end up
learning is basically the info you program into an E-meter at the start
anyway. An E-meter displays SOC right from the first cycle. Also the
capacity changes after the batteries break in, so your meter would have
to relearn and correct it's information.
I suppose it could be done, but I don't see many advantages over an
E-meter (or similar device) and I see several disadvantages.
For example, breaking in batteries properly requires you to monitor them
very closely, but your meter won't have gather enough data to accurately
display their SOC when you need to know it most.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
garry wrote:
> These are definitely sealed and probably gell type, at 33 kg each
> I haven't shaken one to see if it sloshes inside though.
There's always the 'egg test' you use to tell a fresh egg from a
hard-boiled one. Put the battery on a lazy susan, and spin it. If it
stops quickly, it has loose liquid inside. If it keeps spinning, the
liquid is all immobilized. :-)
> They were not venting but it sure sounded like they were bubbling
> away inside.
That's not good for a gel or AGM. You migth charge it this hard once in
a while, but not on every cycle.
> After charging yesterday and letting them sit I measured the
> voltage today and pack voltage was 76 volts.
76v on a 72v pack is 2.11v per cell. That would be fully charged for a
flooded battery, but not quite full for a gel or AGM.
As Joe Smalley suggested, put them on a low-current charger until the
voltage stops rising; it should end at about 2.5v per cell at under
2.7amps (2% of your 135ah rating). Or, charge with a constant-voltage
charger until the current stops falling; it should end at 2.4v per cell
and under 1.35amps.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Fred Whitridge wrote:
>
> Hello:
>
> Lee described, in his usual lucid style, that internal resistance is
> delta V/delta A. But, ummmm, for how long a measurement period and when
> in the charge/discharge cycle?
>
> I've just finished cycling my first MB80. The ~8amp discharge followed
> by the recommended 11amp CC to 15.8 volts, or 386 minutes if first,
> followed by 5amps CC for 60 minutes returned almost exactly the amp
> hours removed. I arrived at 386 minutes and 15.8 volts at almost the
> same time. Rich: You've been advocating some level of overcharge-- how
> much??
>
> Once charged, I discharged at an average of 8.75 amps for one minute at
> an average of 14.62 volts. I then screwed in my three new 50 watt "RV"
> bulbs, in addition to the three headlights pulling ~8amps, and
> discharged at an average of 20.7 amps and 14.31 volts for the next
> minute. Delta V is .31, and delta A is 11.95, and delta V/delta A is
> .02594 or 25.94 milliOhms. How's my math? How's my grasp of the
> subject matter? Is this the initial high resistance Sheer and others
> have reported? 25 milliOhms seems awful high especially given Lee's
> bench mark of a charged Optima at 3 milliOhms. Should I be sampling
> longer? Using higher amperages per Victors recent post/? Help from you
> math whizzes and battery gurus appreciated.....
Joe's Evecell data shows you need about 104 to 105 percent overcharge.
The Evercell documents say never more than %110.
We find that less than %104 and you loose amp hours on the next cycle.
And funny as it may seam more than about %107 has the same effect.
Since the Evercell data shows a the 2nd low amps of 4 and for 120
minutes, What you can do is charge at this rate until the volts go DOWN.
This is the visual thermal runaway, that causes no damage. Once the
voltage is falling while holding the small amps, ALL the charge energy
is being turned into heat inside the battery. You don't want to do this
for very long, or at any really high amp. But if you don't get to this
point, you don't have the battery fully charged either.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
garry wrote:
>
> Hi Lee,
>
> These are definitely sealed and probably gell type, at 33 kg each I haven't
> shaken one to see if it sloshes inside though.
>
> They were not venting but it sure sounded like they were bubbling away
> inside.
>
> After charging yesterday and letting them sit I measured the voltage today
> and pack voltage was 76 volts.
>
> Each cell measured on average 2.12 with many at 2.13 and some at 2.14 with a
> few low ones at 2.11 volts.
>
> I guess all that remains is to see if they go further than 10 kilometers
> now.
>
> Garry Stanley
>
> Cable.net.nz
Gary:
You still havn't told us much.
Volts while charing and Amps being delivered while doing so.
It's my guess that you have taken about %25 of the life out of the
batteries already.
Volts on a battery without charge current or discharge current is close
to meaningless.
Gassing a sealed battery, is a major screwup.
Using Gells for 200 to 400 amp service is going to result in a right
quick death of your pack.
Oh well you will learn real quick one way or the other.
You want to see greater than 85 volts and less than 90 , and amps in the
1 to 4 amp range at the end of charge. 15 amps at what voltage???? most
likely way over 90 to get these batteries to take this abuse level.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul G wrote:
>
> >Paul G wrote:
> >> How about something like that for the digital age :-)
> >> Seems like such a device, only computerized and with a nice bar graph
> >> of LEDs would only need to be programmed with the pack voltage and
> >> would figure out the SOC by watching the voltage and comparing it
> >> with the load. Well, the Peukert's exponent would also be helpful,
> >> but actual capacity wouldn't be needed.
>
> Lee wrote:
> >Yes. It's called an E-meter (now renamed the Link 10).
>
> True, but I'm thinking of something smarter. If voltage is compared
> to load it seems possible to figure out the capacity on the fly. Then
> the capacity doesn't have to be programmed in; it will adjust the
> capacity based on what the pack is showing, giving built in pack
> capacity adjustment (so it will figure out when the pack has only 50%
> of its capacity left).
Yes! This is one of the big failings of the E-meter. It assumes the
operator is smart enough to configure the E-meter correctly (amphours,
Peukert exponent, CEF, charge parameters, etc.). Its State of Charge,
Low Battery, Fully Charged, and other indicators only work when it is
configured properly.
But, the average owner doesn't know how to set them! And the E-meter
manual is no help! So, most E-meters are set up wrong, and provide bad
information.
As you say, the E-meter itself has all the information to calculate all
these parameter for itself. It could watch battery voltage and current,
compare this to its configured values, and automatically figure out the
amphour capacity, Peukert exponent, etc. for itself. But it doesn't.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> I suppose it could be done, but I don't see many advantages over
> an E-meter (or similar device) and I see several disadvantages.
>
> For example, breaking in batteries properly requires you to monitor
> them very closely, but your meter won't have gather enough data to
> accurately display their SOC when you need to know it most.
You can initially estimate SOC from voltage alone. After just one cycle,
you have a guess at amphour capacity. AAfter several cycles, you can
estimate the Peukert exponent. All of these values get better as more
cycles are accumulated on the battery.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark's $34 12 V charger idea would be 3 * $34= $102, a lot
of iron, and not a three stage charger designed for gel
chemistry.
There cheap chargers, but with gel, agm, or other non-wet
cell batteries, you need a good charger. Water can be
added to wet cells. Overcharging non-wet cells can
damage them.
Searching for a 36 volt gel charger
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=36+volt+battery+chargers+gel
ie: a 5 amp charger suitable for gel batteries is about
$150
http://www.4unique.com/battery/soneil/soneil-36v5a.htm
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Can someone provide a proper tutorial on how to configure?
For instance, the Sparrow owners have figured out the following settings.
156v nominal with AGM batteries (Optima YTs)
Parameter Displ Suggested
Description LED Code Setting
----------- --- ----- -------
Charged Voltage (V) 190
Charged Current Percent (A) 004
Battery Capacity (Ah) 55
Time or 4P means Percent (t) 4P
Reset Ahrs, factory values RESET AH
Charging Efficiency Factor DATA E90 E90
# of CEF Recalculations DATA +???
Deepest Discharge in AH DATA -???
Average Discharge in AH DATA ???
E-meter setting Lock out LOCK LOC Off
Auto Display Scanning FUNC F01 On (or Off if manual scan)
Turn Display Off (Sleep) FUNC F02 Off (or Au)
Battery Temperature (in C) FUNC F03 020
KWhr Display instead of AH FUNC F04 Off/On (Off=Ah, On=Kwh)
Charge Params 1 min not 5 FUNC F05 Off
Manual CEF Set (A90=Auto) FUNC F06 A90
Temperature Coefficient FUNC F07 0.5
Peukert Exponent FUNC F08 1.09
Discharge Floor (DOD) FUNC F09 100
Low Battery Recharge Pcnt FUNC F10 070
Low Battery Alarm On Pcnt FUNC F11 080
Low Voltage Alarm Threshld FUNC F12 115
Voltage Scaling 2={0-500V} FUNC F13 002
Enable Low Battery Alarm FUNC F14 Off
Display E-meter Version FUNC F15 ???
E-meter Temp Sensor Enable FUNC F16 On (if sensor installed)
Light Test FUNC F17
BR,
Ed Thorpe
Lee Hartwrote:
Yes! This is one of the big failings of the E-meter. It assumes the
operator is smart enough to configure the E-meter correctly (amphours,
Peukert exponent, CEF, charge parameters, etc.). Its State of Charge,
Low Battery, Fully Charged, and other indicators only work when it is
configured properly.
But, the average owner doesn't know how to set them! And the E-meter
manual is no help! So, most E-meters are set up wrong, and provide bad
information.
As you say, the E-meter itself has all the information to calculate all
these parameter for itself. It could watch battery voltage and current,
compare this to its configured values, and automatically figure out the
amphour capacity, Peukert exponent, etc. for itself. But it doesn't.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Mark,
But when you do the setup as stated below and
your pack is in a 36 volt series, dont you have
to disconnect the cables going to each battery?
I guess that would be a minimum of two cables.
Allan
--- Mark Thomasson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> If you want to go low budget, get a single
> automatic 12 volt deep cycle
> battery charger. Mine is 10A and cost $34 at
> the local auto parts store.
> When its finishes charging and shuts off, a
> bright green light comes on
> telling me it's time to connect it to the next
> battery. Buy three if you
> want a fast charge. I never have to worry
> about balancing. Mark T.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Not if you are using a single charger. If you are using multiple
chargers and the inputs are isolated from the outputs (no DC connection
between the AC side and the DC side, usually means a transformer) then
you can also leave them connected while charging.
If you get multiple non-isolated chargers then you will have to remove
cables.
On Tue, 2003-06-17 at 11:15, ItalysBadBoy wrote:
> Hello Mark,
>
> But when you do the setup as stated below and
> your pack is in a 36 volt series, dont you have
> to disconnect the cables going to each battery?
> I guess that would be a minimum of two cables.
>
> Allan
>
>
> --- Mark Thomasson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > If you want to go low budget, get a single
> > automatic 12 volt deep cycle
> > battery charger. Mine is 10A and cost $34 at
> > the local auto parts store.
> > When its finishes charging and shuts off, a
> > bright green light comes on
> > telling me it's time to connect it to the next
> > battery. Buy three if you
> > want a fast charge. I never have to worry
> > about balancing. Mark T.
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> http://sbc.yahoo.com
>
--
EVDL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> Joe's Evecell data shows you need about 104 to 105 percent overcharge.
> The Evercell documents say never more than %110.
> We find that less than %104 and you loose amp hours on the next cycle.
> And funny as it may seam more than about %107 has the same effect.
> Since the Evercell data shows a the 2nd low amps of 4 and for 120
> minutes, What you can do is charge at this rate until the volts go DOWN.
> This is the visual thermal runaway, that causes no damage. Once the
> voltage is falling while holding the small amps, ALL the charge energy
> is being turned into heat inside the battery. You don't want to do this
> for very long, or at any really high amp. But if you don't get to this
> point, you don't have the battery fully charged either.
I think this is why Evercel started recommending CC/CC alg.
I'm not going to debate whether Joe's tests support this
recommendation and you guys feel it would be a good idea or not.
I don't know, and it is different issue.
Evercel is saying, that according to their tests, in some cases
(they didn't say which ones), after CC phase when they hold
constant voltage letting current taper out, current actually
increases first, causing thermal runaway before it gets a chance
to taper down. So they cap the current at CV phase, which is
essentially another CC phase. So they specify first CC phase at 11A
(for MB80), second at 5A.
And you are right about how touchy they are about overcharge:
104% isn't enough and 107% - may be too much. This is why they
specify CC1 timing for I believe 6 hrs 26 min. Not 25, not 27.
Same for second 5A CC2 phase - 240 min sharp. No more, no less.
They say, if one cannot handle CC/CC, then CC/CV is kind of
OK too, only then there's need to watch for the temp and
possible runaways. If the current is capped at all times,
there is no chance of thermal issues and the battery still gets
100% charged, so this is preferred method. Again, other methods
can be OK too, they have nothing against usual CC/CV as long
as you monitor the process and act accordingly.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul G wrote:
>
> Actually, why all this worry about rpm - its nothing but gearing.
> Power is what moves a vehicle in the end. Horsepower is really simple
> - torque (in ft/lbs) times RPM divided by 5252.
And torque at the wheels is what moves you, not directly the
shaft torque. So for given system, the longer you can stay
at lower gear, the longer higher torque applied to the wheels.
Once you switch to the taller gear, say 2x, you loose wheel torque
unless motor torque doubles (tough to do - batts are current limited).
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>
>
> And you are right about how touchy they are about overcharge:
> 104% isn't enough and 107% - may be too much. This is why they
> specify CC1 timing for I believe 6 hrs 26 min. Not 25, not 27.
> Same for second 5A CC2 phase - 240 min sharp. No more, no less.
>
> They say, if one cannot handle CC/CC, then CC/CV is kind of
> OK too, only then there's need to watch for the temp and
> possible runaways. If the current is capped at all times,
> there is no chance of thermal issues and the battery still gets
> 100% charged, so this is preferred method. Again, other methods
> can be OK too, they have nothing against usual CC/CV as long
> as you monitor the process and act accordingly.
>
> Victor
This last bit of CC followed by CV with a Cap is Just what PFC chargers
so well.
The temp feedbacks and the battery to battery equalization is handled by
the regs, That are hooked to the charger. This has Been Manzanita's
Evercell cycle all along.
Regs as we currently build them are not sensitive enough to detect the
slight thermal rise from runway, and the exact voltage threshold of each
battery needs to be done in software, this is why the MK3 have been in
process.
Also the fine edge of the 26 minutes not 25 or 27 is just too fussy for
real EV service. We will have to live with this much error. 6 hours to
charge is unacceptable. A 240 minute CC2 phase (some call it
equalisation, or absorbtion) is also a real limit to the chemistry's
usefullness. For speed and service use a voltage capped Bulk phase and
a taper at the peak voltage down to some lower amperage say 4 amps is
OK.
A perfect charge cycle will take time a Fast one will have some amphours
missed or be a bit hotter than it should be.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Steve,
>
> Shouldn't his proposal consistantly read "miles" or "MPC (miles per
charge)"
> [range] instead of "mph", which means miles per hour [speed]?
>
Your right this is not so clear as I think he is talking about mph .probable
juts a top speed would be better.
>
>
> . We project that it should have a range
> of over forty non polluting clean economical miles at speeds averaging
> between 45 to 85 mph before it needs to be recharged.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
2.
DRIVING REIGN
Seventy-five percent of U.S. workers drive alone to their jobs,
according to data from the 2000 U.S. Census, while only 4.7 percent
get to work via public transportation and 0.4 percent commute by
bicycle. Ridership on mass transit has increased 22 percent since
1996, says the American Public Transit Association, but highway
driving has increased at a faster clip -- unsurprising, considering
that roads and highways get far more government funding than mass
transit projects and transportation alternatives. Another cause of
our car-centric culture, say some enviros and urban planners, is that
many developments are built with only automobiles in mind, making it
difficult for people to get around by foot, bike, or public transit.
straight to the source: MSNBC.com, Lynne Shallcross, 16 Jun 2003
<http://www.gristmagazine.com/forward.pl?forward_id=1244>
from the Grist archives: Car-free and easy -- a week in the life of
Katie Alvord, author
<http://www.gristmagazine.com/week/alvord021102.asp?source=daily>
----------------------------------------------------
This mailbox protected from junk email by Matador
from MailFrontier, Inc. http://info.mailfrontier.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I decided to inform the EVlist of the
lowest cost charger for a 120V pack.
Jim has 20 NiCd STM-180 batteries which
require approximately 150 to 160V max charge.
About 5 months ago he stopped by and I gave
him some full wave rectification bridges that
I used in my Baldor inverter drives. These
are rated at 35 Amps continuous.
He mounted this to an AL heatsink and installed
a switch that changed the bridge from half wave
rectification to full wave. When the intitial
charge with half wave tapers off he switches
the bridge to full wave and finishes the charge
cycle. He's getting 55 miles range with this setup.
Rod
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is my first post to this list, so Hi!
I've been a fan of alternative energy for ages but I just recently
researched all the different vehicle technologies in depth (ICE, EV, hybrid,
steam, air, HFC etc), settling on ZEVs as the most logical and viable option
for a sustainable future. At the moment I'm just learning and "all talk",
but I'd like to learn more from your experiences and start to apply these
valuable lessons myself.
I think what you people (poineers!!) are doing is fantastic and I've now
caught the same infectious bug but I was appalled to learn that the
potential for mass-market "mainstream" adoption of ZEVs has been slowly
eroded by CARB and the ICE lobbyists over the last few years and now HFC
technology seems to be the focus - or is it just an excuse for the car
manufacturers to further delay the inevitable transition to no-fuel ZEVs?
I don't want to start a flame war but it had crossed my mind after reading
all this madness that the US government (I'm Australian) is not doing what's
right for its citizens, its future prosperity and the world. Apart from all
the environmental concerns, economically and strategically speaking, this
utter reliance on oil (and now hydrogen research/generation) could be the
achilles heel that is America's undoing. Newly emerging economic powerhouses
in the global marketplace would do well to walk a different path and embrace
and develop ZEVs and renewable energy. This could be the competitive edge
that countries like China and India need to challenge the economic and
military strength of the US. It just seems insane to me that the US
government (and much of the world for that matter) aren't doing everything
in their power to reduce their reliance on dwindling oil reserves.
Just my 2c. Rant over.
Regards,
Brian Hay.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
> Sent: Wednesday, 18 June 2003 10:51 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: All the more reason for clean electric cars.
>
>
> 2.
> DRIVING REIGN
> Seventy-five percent of U.S. workers drive alone to their jobs,
> according to data from the 2000 U.S. Census, while only 4.7 percent
> get to work via public transportation and 0.4 percent commute by
> bicycle. Ridership on mass transit has increased 22 percent since
> 1996, says the American Public Transit Association, but highway
> driving has increased at a faster clip -- unsurprising, considering
> that roads and highways get far more government funding than mass
> transit projects and transportation alternatives. Another cause of
> our car-centric culture, say some enviros and urban planners, is that
> many developments are built with only automobiles in mind, making it
> difficult for people to get around by foot, bike, or public transit.
>
> straight to the source: MSNBC.com, Lynne Shallcross, 16 Jun 2003
> <http://www.gristmagazine.com/forward.pl?forward_id=1244>
>
> from the Grist archives: Car-free and easy -- a week in the life of
> Katie Alvord, author
> <http://www.gristmagazine.com/week/alvord021102.asp?source=daily>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> This mailbox protected from junk email by Matador
> from MailFrontier, Inc. http://info.mailfrontier.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am a member of some dozen other Yahoo groups. I like having things
organized more be group. That way I see what I want to see and don't have
to skim over the other stuff.
I vote FOR the yahoo group.
At 10:31 PM 6/16/2003, you wrote:
Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen wrote:
> Well, I won't be joining [I don't do Yahoo groups], but if anyone sees any
> messages appropriate to me, please send them my way.
>
I'm with Sheer on this one...Yahoo...No thanks.
Michael B.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
TdS Report #76: Drive To Survive: "Intergalactic Hydrogen"
Some people just get up and do what needs to be done. Tai Robinson is such a
person.
"I have a window washing business, which is how I make my money. Playing with
hydrogen is how I spend it all. This is all done out of my own pocket book."
"This is a stock, 1999 Toyota Tacoma, V-6, 4-by-4 with extended cab which I
have converted to multi-fuel capability. It will run on straight hydrogen,
compressed natural gas, E-85 (85% ethanol, 15% gasoline), or gasoline, or any
combination of those." There is one tank that can hold E85 or gasoline. There
is also one high-pressure cylinder, 3600 pounds per square inch, that can hold
compressed natural gas or compressed hydrogen gas.
Tai's creation, called the "Intergalactic Hydrogen", was part of the Drive To
Survive cross country excursion organized by Dennis Weaver's Institute of
Ecolonomics. The Drive To Survive and the Tour de Sol both met on the Capitol
Mall on the 14th of May.
Was it difficult to get hydrogen crossing the country? "We were only able to
fill the high-pressure cylinder with hydrogen in California. The rest of the
way we had to use welding supply bottles at 2000 PSI. When they were empty we
exchanged them for full ones. There were 17 towns that we drove through that
could sell us hydrogen. I think we only stopped at 6 of them."
Why? Why go to all this trouble to burn hydrogen? "It's the right thing to
do. By burning hydrogen in an internal combustion engine we clean the air."
Really? "The air coming out the tail pipe is cleaner than the city air going
in. I actually burn the particulate pollution right out of the dirty city air.
We were able to prove that with emission testing equipment sensitive enough to
monitor the ambient air. Some of the carbon monoxide gets an oxygen atom added
to it and turns into carbon dioxide."
"We also increase expectancy of the engine and reduce the operating cost."
Reduce operating cost? "When I make my own hydrogen, which is basicly free
because the equipment is already paid for, the fuel that comes out is free.
It's a small electrolysis setup that only makes about half a cubic foot an
hour. I use it a lot faster than that, so I buy a lot of hydrogen, which is not
renewable. It costs over $100 per kilogram, but the good news is the renewable
hydrogen is cheaper. In Palm Desert they sell it for $6.35 per kilo, making it
with electrolysis from photo voltaic panels. Stewart Energy in Richmond
California is advertising $4 per kilo.
"I'm basicly trying to secure my place in the hydrogen economy. I want to get
us there quicker because I believe this is the one chance the people have to
regain some power from these multinational corporations that don't have our
best interests in mind. I want to let people know that the internal combustion
engine that they are already driving can also run on natural gas, hydrogen, or
propane. We cannot call them `alternative fuels' any more. To make them main
stream we have to call them `American fuels'. Ethanol and biodiesel you can
grow, produce and use it right here in the country. The same with natural gas
and hydrogen. We can mine it right here and use it." Mining hydrogen?
"Everything around us has hydrogen in it, so we have to figure out the ways to
mine it out of there."
"I put about $5000 into this vehicle. If I spent about $50,000 I could
introduce the hydrogen through injectors after the valves are closed and
increase the performance." Could you use diesel engines? "Yes. Caterpillar
has a conversion kit for natural gas in their diesel engines. It will then
run on hydrogen."
Tai's next stop was the Clean Cities conference in Palm Springs. "I will be
getting more renewable hydrogen and driving people all around."
- - - -
The complete set of Tour de Sol Reports for 2003 can be found at:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2003
The complete set of past Tour de Sol Reports can be found at:
http://www.FovealSystems.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
- - - -
The above is Copyright 2003 by Michael H. Bianchi.
Permission to copy is granted provided the entire article is presented
without modification and this notice remains attached.
For other arrangements, contact me at +1-973-822-2085 .
- - - -
For more on the NESEA Tour de Sol, see the web page at
http://www.TourdeSol.org
- - - -
Official NESEA Tour de Sol information is available from the sponsor,
the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association (NESEA) at
413 774-6051 , and 50 Miles Street, Greenfield, MA 01301 , and
[EMAIL PROTECTED] . All media enquiries should be addressed to ...
Jack Groh
Tour de Sol Communications Director
P.O. Box 6044
Warwick, RI 02887-6044
401 732-1551
401 732-0547 fax
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
