EV Digest 2863
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RAV4 still availible?
by "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EVLN(?Can PZEVs partially drive in the car pool lanes?)
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Segway Bush tumble: Got Video?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Segway question?
by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: RAV4 still availible?
by "amadare" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Segway Bush tumble: Got Video?
by "amadare" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: EVLN(Bus Rapid Transit says electric rail is dirty)
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Segway Bush tumble: Got Video?
by "amadare" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: RAV4 still availible?
by "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) No: RAV4 still availible
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: BBC News
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) Re: EVLN(Bus Rapid Transit says electric rail is dirty)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13) Porsche EV? (was: RE: RAV4 still availible?)
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Threaded posts (was Ten EV-145's)
by Jay Donnaway <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Segway Bush tumble: Got Video?
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: EVLN(Bus Rapid Transit says electric rail is dirty)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) RE: Segway Bush tumble: Got Video?
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Threaded posts (was Ten EV-145's)
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Threaded posts (was Ten EV-145's)
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: bicycle hub engine powered by gasoline
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
21) RE: EVLN(Bus Rapid Transit says electric rail is dirty)
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: MB80 third cycle, conditioner thoughts
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: EL Chopper
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hm. Does this mean Toyota is selling the RAV4 EV again? I thought they
totally dropped it...
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce EVangel Parmenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 10:15 AM
Subject: EVLN(EVs pushed into the slow lane, I drive my politics)-long
> Toyota has just introduced the $43,000 RAV4 EV, the first
> compact sport utility vehicle for the retail market fueled
> by household current.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The price paid for this technology is a vehicle that is complicated.
Expensive. Needs expensive maintainance. Will have to be replaced
eventully. Probably better than the average car. But you will pay in the
future. Wonder if there will ever be a CNG hybrid? Hmmm Lithium Ion...
Sounds better to me. Lawrence Rhodes.......
----------------------------------------------------
This mailbox protected from junk email by Matador
from MailFrontier, Inc. http://info.mailfrontier.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce EVangel Parmenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 7:04 AM
Subject: EVLN(?Can PZEVs partially drive in the car pool lanes?)
> EVLN(?Can PZEVs partially drive in the car pool lanes?)
> [The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
> informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
> --- {EVangel}
> Civic Hybrid First Hybrid Vehicle to Earn Advanced
> Technology Partial Zero Emissions (AT-PZEV) Status
> Civic Hybrid and Civic GX Are First Two AT-PZEV Vehicles
>
> TORRANCE, Calif., June 12 /PRNewswire/ -- The 2003 Honda
> Civic Hybrid is the first-ever hybrid vehicle to earn
> certification as an Advanced Technology Partial
> Zero-Emissions Vehicle (AT-PZEV) from California's Air
> Resources Board (CARB), adding to a long list of Honda
> firsts in environmental technology leadership.
>
> The 2003 Civic Hybrid, currently sold in California, is the
> only hybrid vehicle to achieve this stringent emissions
> level, producing about 90-percent fewer smog-forming engine
> emissions than required of a typical new vehicle. The Civic
> Hybrid joins the natural gas-powered Civic GX as the only
> two vehicles to achieve AT-PZEV status under California's
> Zero Emissions Vehicle (ZEV) program. In addition to the
> air quality benefits provided, the Civic Hybrid contributes
> to energy security and reduces green house gas emissions by
> delivering high fuel efficiency in a five-passenger sedan.
>
> "Honda's leadership in introducing cleaner vehicles is the
> result of our longstanding commitment to the development of
> new technologies like hybrids and fuel cells, and the
> introduction of these technologies to the market as early as
> possible," said Gunnar Lindstrom, senior manager of
> Alternative Fuel Vehicles at American Honda Motor Co., Inc.
> "We have demonstrated that near zero emission gasoline
> vehicles, hybrids and natural gas vehicles are each an
> effective path to improving air quality."
>
> To achieve the AT-PZEV emissions classification, a vehicle
> must be a Super Ultra Low Emission Vehicle (SULEV) with zero
> evaporative emissions and must carry a 15-year/150,000-mile
> warranty on emissions equipment.
>
> "This is a significant accomplishment for Honda and an
> important step toward cleaner air for the citizens of this
> state," said Alan Lloyd, chairman of California's Air
> Resources Board. "It speaks to Honda's commitment to
> technology leadership and the emphasis they have placed on
> reducing vehicle emissions to extremely low levels."
>
> In keeping with the company's commitment to environmental
> technology leadership, Honda has consistently led the
> industry in meeting new emissions requirements. Every 2003
> Honda model achieves Low Emissions Vehicle (LEV) status or
> better. Honda also has the highest Corporate Average Fuel
> Economy (CAFE) rating among the 10 major automakers.
>
> In December 2002, Honda introduced the FCX, the first and
> only hydrogen-powered fuel cell vehicle to receive both EPA
> and CARB certification for regular commercial use. The City
> of Los Angeles has begun a lease program for five Honda FCX
> vehicles, the world's first commercial application of a fuel
> cell vehicle.
>
> Other Honda clean air innovations include:
>
> -- Civic ULEV (September 2001) -- the first mass-market
> vehicle sold nationwide as an Ultra Low Emission Vehicle
> (ULEV);
>
> -- Accord SULEV (November 1999) -- the first vehicle to
> gain Super-Ultra Low Emission Vehicle certification in
> California;
>
> -- Insight (December 1999) -- the first gasoline-electric
> hybrid car sold in the United States. Achieved highest
> EPA fuel economy rating ever and CARB SULEV status
> (CVT), ULEV (MT);
>
> -- Civic GX (April 1998) -- the natural gas-powered Civic
> is the cleanest internal combustion engine vehicle ever
> tested by the EPA;
>
> -- EV Plus (May 1997) -- the first application of advanced
> nickel-metal hydride batteries in an electric vehicle;
>
> -- Accord ULEV (September 1997) -- the first
> gasoline-powered vehicle to gain Ultra Low Emission
> Vehicle certification in California;
>
> -- Civic (September 1995) -- the first gasoline-powered
> vehicle to gain Low Emission Vehicle certification in
> California.
>
> -- Civic CVCC (1975) -- the world's first vehicle to comply
> with the 1970 Clean Air Act using lean burn technology
> that produced fewer emissions based on the enhanced
> performance of the engine (without a catalytic
> converter).
>
> For related press releases, press kit information, and image
> downloads, please visit www.hondanews.com . SOURCE
> American Honda Motor Co., Inc. CO: American Honda Motor
> Co., Inc.; California's Air Resources Board; CARB ST:
> California SU: Web site: http://www.hondanews.com
> http://www.prnewswire.com 06/12/2003 13:44 EDT
> -
>
>
>
>
>
>
> =====
> ' ____
> ~/__|o\__
> '@----- @'---(=
> . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> . EV List Editor & RE newswires
> . (originator of the above ASCII art)
> =====
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is there video of the Bush tumble on the Segway? Lawrence Rhodes.......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Honestly not trying to set off another debate.
I was just wondering how much power the Segway uses while just standing
still, like waiting at a crosswalk? I imagine it depends somewhat on how
still the operator is standing on it. How does it compare with power used
while in motion?
Does standing still on a hill use more power?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you look closely at some more details of the article you will see
them metion
"That does not necessarily mean the all-electric car concept
is bound for the junkyard - at least in California.
The state is mandating that 2 percent of cars sold there in
2003 be pure, battery-operated electric cars."
That mandate was revoked at least a month or more ago. So he obviously
hasn't done any recent research for this article. It probably took him
6 months to write the outdated piece.
Bobby
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christopher Zach
> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 9:57 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RAV4 still availible?
>
>
> Hm. Does this mean Toyota is selling the RAV4 EV again? I thought they
> totally dropped it...
>
> Chris
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bruce EVangel Parmenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 10:15 AM
> Subject: EVLN(EVs pushed into the slow lane, I drive my politics)-long
>
>
> > Toyota has just introduced the $43,000 RAV4 EV, the first
> > compact sport utility vehicle for the retail market fueled
> > by household current.
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Still looking for a video, but here is a good still of it.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/06/13/bush.weekend.ap/
Bobby
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 10:07 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Segway Bush tumble: Got Video?
>
>
> Is there video of the Bush tumble on the Segway? Lawrence
> Rhodes.......
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> WASHINGTON--(BUSINESS WIRE)--June 18, 2003--Electric rail
> transit systems generate significant air pollution,
> particularly where these systems are powered by electricity
> generated by fossil fuel power plants, according to a new
> study released today by the Breakthrough Technologies
> Institute. Bus Rapid Transit (BRT), a new transit technology
> that uses low-emission vehicles, produces significantly less
> pollution than electric rail, while costing a fraction of the
> amount to build and operate.
>
> "We can no longer overlook the source of electricity for our
> rail systems," said Bill Vincent, author of the study and a
> former transportation official during the Clinton
> Administration. "Using coal to power transit simply moves the
> tailpipe to the smokestack - the overall environmental
> benefit is questionable."
I think we've seen the face of a new enemy. Poke around for info on
Breakthrough Technologies Institute and you'll find they are a rabid
promoter of fuel cells. For ten years now. So it's not just the oil
industry that's fighting us, it's the fuel cell industry too.
Hmmm. Maybe it's the oil industry acting through the fuel cell
industry?
Who can we find to make a real battery EV available to the public?
That's the key. Get reasonably reliable EVs in customers' hands, even
in modest numbers, and the reality will make shameless spin like the
above much less effective. Half a dozen of the people on this list and
some support staff could make it happen. All we need is someone to pony
up a few million. Peanuts in the automotive world. Anyone know of any
funding sources?
No, me neither.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
4 pics in series
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/030612/170/4dnhg.html&e=
1
video hard to find. :(
Bobby
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 10:07 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Segway Bush tumble: Got Video?
>
>
> Is there video of the Bush tumble on the Segway? Lawrence
> Rhodes.......
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mmm... In other words, no such luck.
That being said I've pretty much stopped using the Porsches now that I have
the Prizm running. Just passed 4,000 miles on the odometer, which means I
have put 3k miles on the car since I got it.
40 mile range is enough to pretty much do anything I need. I would hardly
consider a 100 mile range to be "limiting".
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: "amadare" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 11:34 AM
Subject: RE: RAV4 still availible?
> If you look closely at some more details of the article you will see
> them metion
>
> "That does not necessarily mean the all-electric car concept
> is bound for the junkyard - at least in California.
>
> The state is mandating that 2 percent of cars sold there in
> 2003 be pure, battery-operated electric cars."
>
> That mandate was revoked at least a month or more ago. So he obviously
> hasn't done any recent research for this article. It probably took him
> 6 months to write the outdated piece.
>
> Bobby
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christopher Zach
> > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 9:57 AM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: RAV4 still availible?
> >
> >
> > Hm. Does this mean Toyota is selling the RAV4 EV again? I thought they
> > totally dropped it...
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Bruce EVangel Parmenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 10:15 AM
> > Subject: EVLN(EVs pushed into the slow lane, I drive my politics)-long
> >
> >
> > > Toyota has just introduced the $43,000 RAV4 EV, the first
> > > compact sport utility vehicle for the retail market fueled
> > > by household current.
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No Chris,
not available from Toyota. But there are still some
RAV4 EV leases you might be able to take over
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/RAV4_EV/message/4091
There are no highway speed production EVs being made by
the big7 automakers.
As Bobby pointed out, this is another media piece that
spreads mis-information. The 'new' diluted CA mandate
does not require rechargeable highway speed EVs to be
sold by automakers. With Fed funding automakers are
spending the money on token efforts, and already have
said 'do not hold us to anything'
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/fuelcellvehicles/message/153
The only ally we have in this battle is more public
conductive EV charging being installed from our local
Air Quality Districts
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/message/3414
The more contigous conductive public EV charging we have,
the more encentive for EV use. It may just be, that EV
converters may start up again.
Return to the days of GreenWheels, EcoElectric, and many others.
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is the REVA, from India.
Might be able to do 40mph / 66kmph in India and the UK, but will most likely
be limited to 25mph / 40kmph if imported into the USA. Really doubt if the
manufacturer would be willing to spend the time/money/pain of going through
the DOT acceptance process, and adding airbags, etc to meet the normal USA
requirements. Instead, if they bring it in, we will get another nEV.
-Ed Thorpe
-----Original Message-----
From: Carroll, Matt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 2:09 AM
To: EV list (E-mail)
Subject: BBC News
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/west_yorkshire/2997426.stm
Thought you all might like to read this.
Matt Carroll
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What is the e-mail contact for Breakthrough Technologies Institute,
Washington
> Bill Vincent, 202/785-4222 X30 or Brian Walsh, 202/785-4222
> X12 SOURCE: Breakthrough Technologies Institute 06/18/2003
> 10:59 EASTERN ?
50,000 homes at 1 Kilowatt per home on average is a small 50 megawatt
(MW) power plant as normal size power plants are on the average to 500 to
1000 megawatt. A Windmill sited off shore today is typically 2 MW.
Electric transportation is the cleanest type of transportation, single
passenger vehicle or mass transportation, when the source of the energy
is also clean such as Photovoltaic, Wind, Hydroelectric (both dams and
ocean wave), Geothermal, and Nuclear (perish the thought). Another
possible source of relatively clean energy could be methane gas from
waste sites (town dumps) or waste treatment plants. You will not see
NYC, Boston, Washington, Philadelphia, Chicago, LA, San Francisco, or
any other major city giving up their electric powered mass
transportation. It would be impossible to give their populations the
same ease to travel throughout the cities if they could not go by
electric rail. Road by any number of buses could simply not replace
the travel by rail because there would be even a worse grid lock then
now.
What advanced engine and fuels are they talking about ?
There is not enough natural gas to power all our existing electric
generating power plants, heating and cooking for homes, and major
industries.
There certainly is not enough natural gas to extract Hydrogen for clean
burning power plants or fuel cells.
Going back to any fossil fuel will only increase our reliance on those
imports.
The answer is to make all electric power plants clean burning or replace
them with some form of electrical generation that is clean.
Spend money to make those oil and coal plants burn clean or replace them
with alternative energy generation instead of spending the money on
medical to treat illness caused by burning dirty.
OR invest in alternative energy: Wind, Photovoltaic, Hydroelectric (both
from Dams and OCEAN Waves), and Geothermal to replace those dirty power
plants.
Even England has a flywheel powered tram at one of its seaports.
Menlo Park III,
Bill
On Thu, 19 Jun 2003 07:19:56 -0700 (PDT) Bruce EVangel Parmenter
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> EVLN(Bus Rapid Transit says electric rail is dirty)
> [The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
> informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
> --- {EVangel}
> Electric Rail Transit Systems Create Significant Air
> Pollution; New Technology Offers Less-Polluting Alternative
> According to New Study by the Breakthrough Technologies
> Institute
>
> WASHINGTON--(BUSINESS WIRE)--June 18, 2003--Electric rail
> transit systems generate significant air pollution,
> particularly where these systems are powered by electricity
> generated by fossil fuel power plants, according to a new
> study released today by the Breakthrough Technologies
> Institute. Bus Rapid Transit (BRT), a new transit technology
> that uses low-emission vehicles, produces significantly less
> pollution than electric rail, while costing a fraction of
> the amount to build and operate.
>
> "We can no longer overlook the source of electricity for our
> rail systems," said Bill Vincent, author of the study and a
> former transportation official during the Clinton
> Administration. "Using coal to power transit simply moves
> the tailpipe to the smokestack - the overall environmental
> benefit is questionable."
>
> The study looked at three forms of transit: electric heavy
> rail, electric light rail, and BRT. It found that electric
> rail transit systems create significant power plant
> emissions that contribute to smog, lung disease, and global
> climate change. These emissions include carbon dioxide, a
> leading contributor to global warming, nitrogen oxides,
> sulfur dioxide, mercury, and particulate matter.
>
> The study also found that BRT systems can produce
> significantly less pollution than electric rail when powered
> by advanced engines and fuels.
>
> "The irony," Vincent said, "is that we invested in rail to
> reduce pollution from cars and to get away from diesel
> buses. It turns out that rail itself may not be very clean
> and that new bus technologies offer much better alternatives
> for reducing pollution."
>
> One of the main rail systems examined by the study is
> Washington DC's Metrorail, which is often touted as one of
> the best rail systems in the country. Metrorail consumes a
> massive amount of electricity, enough to power over 50,000
> homes. Much of this electricity comes from coal fired power
> plants, both within and outside of the Washington region.
>
> The pollution from coal power plants has been linked to
> hundreds of premature deaths, acid rain, and lung disease.
> Recently, the Virginia Electric and Power Company agreed to
> a record $1.2 billion settlement for violating clean air
> laws at eight of its coal-fired power plants. These same
> plants supply electricity to Metrorail.
>
> Although the study focused on Metrorail, the results are
> critical for any community. "Roughly half of our nation's
> electricity is generated by coal," said Vincent. "Any city
> considering electric rail needs to take a hard look at where
> the electricity is coming from."
>
> Vincent added that communities also need to take a hard look
> at alternative transit technologies, like BRT. "BRT can be a
> win-win-win technology. It is cleaner, costs a lot less, and
> provides high quality service."
>
> The report makes a number of recommendations to maximize the
> environmental value of transit investments. These
> recommendations include:
>
> -- Making a stronger commitment to cleaner sources of
> electric power, thus significantly reducing the
> emissions associated with electric rail systems;
>
> -- Requiring transit agencies to purchase renewable power,
> wherever that option is available; and
>
> -- Asking Congress to require an objective analysis of
> available transit technologies, so that planners can no
> longer ignore both the emissions associated with
> electric rail and the potential environmental benefits
> of new technologies, like BRT.
>
> The report, entitled The Electric Rail Dilemma: Clean
> Transportation From Dirty Electricity? is available for free
> download, beginning June 18, at www.gobrt.org.
>
> Founded in 1993, the Breakthrough Technologies Institute is
> a DC-based non-profit dedicated to promoting advanced
> environmental and energy technologies.
>
> CONTACT: Breakthrough Technologies Institute, Washington
> Bill Vincent, 202/785-4222 X30 or Brian Walsh, 202/785-4222
> X12 SOURCE: Breakthrough Technologies Institute 06/18/2003
> 10:59 EASTERN
________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Christopher Zach wrote:
> That being said I've pretty much stopped using the Porsches
> now that I have the Prizm running. Just passed 4,000 miles on
> the odometer, which means I have put 3k miles on the car
> since I got it.
Hi Chris,
Do I remember correctly that one of your Porsches, maybe a 944, had a
dead engine? A 944 makes a pretty nice EV. Twin 8s belted directly to
the axles (you can pitch the trans and driveshaft), driven by Otmar's
automatic series-parallel shifting Zilla. That would be very sweet.
Wouldn't it be nice to give it a new, high-powered, no-exhaust life? Or
pass it on to someone who can?
For that matter, I keep forgetting to get more info on the mid-60's
Porsche 912 that an acquaintance of mine wants to sell. I think it's in
fine shape. He wants around $3500 IIRC. Air-cooled and no smog
controls - yeesh! This is a car that *needs* to be converted. It's in
the Philadelphia suburbs. If anyone's interested, please contact me
off-list.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
With threaded battery posts, couldn't an installer lock the cable
lug between two nuts, rather than pulling the threaded stud loose by
torquing down against the lead?
This would seem to avoid the issue of greater exposed contact area
(for accidental shorts between posts), while also saving weight and
avoiding the tendency of automotive lugs to loosen up if overtorqued.
-Jay
--snip--
> Of course automotive posts require automotive lugs. If your cables
> don't have them, stick with the L posts. DO NOT use the threaded posts
> available on some batteries. They are not designed for the current
> draws a typical EV sees. They are made by casting bolts into the lead
> posts. When you attach a cable and tighten the bolt, you're squeezing
> the lead between the bolt head and the cable lug. Lead is soft enough
> to flow, so the connection can become loose. It's an open invitation
> for a high-resistance connection, which causes heat, which softens the
> lead more, so it flows, etc., etc. until you melt the post.
>
> Some have used threaded posts and dodged the bullet. There are too many
> tales of woe concerning threaded posts to consciously decide to use them
> over L or automotive posts if you have the choice.
>
> Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you look closely you'll see Dick Cheney's
hand after pushing him off.
Dick's response was 'I told you those tree hugging
2 wheeled EV scooters are unsafe, you should have
been driving a Humvee!'
--- amadare <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Still looking for a video, but here is a good still
> of it.
>
>
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/06/13/bush.weekend.ap/
>
> Bobby
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> Lawrence Rhodes
> > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 10:07 AM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Segway Bush tumble: Got Video?
> >
> >
> > Is there video of the Bush tumble on the Segway?
> Lawrence
> > Rhodes.......
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What we need is a group from this list to form a nonprofit coop to design
and manufacture a real battery EV for the public at a price that will
compete, but
remembering that a real battery EV will only replace the 2nd car that is
used around town and possibly a short commuter (within 25 miles of home)
for work and not able compete for traveling over 150 miles in one day.
Top speed must be atleast 75 mph up hill on interstates to be safe.
The real problem is location, location, location. Where would such an
organization be located such that enough members would join to finance
this endeavor. There are probably plenty of towns and cities looking
for new business and jobs that still have old abandoned factories, tax
incentives, etc. Stock would need to be sold to all members to finance
the business, possibly sold to every member of the EV list, and if
necessary transform to a regular for profit business to sell stock to the
general public.
Has anyone come up with a business plan with actual $ numbers, personel
required, and a milestone chart ???
Menlo Park III,
Bill, Glastonbury, CT
On Thu, 19 Jun 2003 11:40:47 -0400 "Chris Tromley"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > WASHINGTON--(BUSINESS WIRE)--June 18, 2003--Electric rail
> > transit systems generate significant air pollution,
> > particularly where these systems are powered by electricity
> > generated by fossil fuel power plants, according to a new
> > study released today by the Breakthrough Technologies
> > Institute. Bus Rapid Transit (BRT), a new transit technology
> > that uses low-emission vehicles, produces significantly less
> > pollution than electric rail, while costing a fraction of the
> > amount to build and operate.
> >
> > "We can no longer overlook the source of electricity for our
> > rail systems," said Bill Vincent, author of the study and a
> > former transportation official during the Clinton
> > Administration. "Using coal to power transit simply moves the
> > tailpipe to the smokestack - the overall environmental
> > benefit is questionable."
>
> I think we've seen the face of a new enemy. Poke around for info on
> Breakthrough Technologies Institute and you'll find they are a rabid
> promoter of fuel cells. For ten years now. So it's not just the
> oil
> industry that's fighting us, it's the fuel cell industry too.
>
> Hmmm. Maybe it's the oil industry acting through the fuel cell
> industry?
>
> Who can we find to make a real battery EV available to the public?
> That's the key. Get reasonably reliable EVs in customers' hands,
> even
> in modest numbers, and the reality will make shameless spin like the
> above much less effective. Half a dozen of the people on this list
> and
> some support staff could make it happen. All we need is someone to
> pony
> up a few million. Peanuts in the automotive world. Anyone know of
> any
> funding sources?
>
> No, me neither.
>
> Chris
>
>
________________________________________________________________
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And I thought it was impossible to fall off of one of those thangs.
Just what the average disabled person needs, all you have to do to save
yourself from a nasty tumble is make a flying leap.
On Thu, 2003-06-19 at 08:37, amadare wrote:
> Still looking for a video, but here is a good still of it.
>
> http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/06/13/bush.weekend.ap/
>
> Bobby
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
> > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 10:07 AM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Segway Bush tumble: Got Video?
> >
> >
> > Is there video of the Bush tumble on the Segway? Lawrence
> > Rhodes.......
> >
> >
>
--
EVDL
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Then all of your current (hundreds of amps) has to go through the
stainless steel bolt. The bolt has a fairly high resistance so you'll
end up with some voltage drop there and the bolt will heat up.
On Thu, 2003-06-19 at 09:55, Jay Donnaway wrote:
> With threaded battery posts, couldn't an installer lock the cable
> lug between two nuts, rather than pulling the threaded stud loose by
> torquing down against the lead?
> This would seem to avoid the issue of greater exposed contact area
> (for accidental shorts between posts), while also saving weight and
> avoiding the tendency of automotive lugs to loosen up if overtorqued.
> -Jay
>
> --snip--
> > Of course automotive posts require automotive lugs. If your cables
> > don't have them, stick with the L posts. DO NOT use the threaded posts
> > available on some batteries. They are not designed for the current
> > draws a typical EV sees. They are made by casting bolts into the lead
> > posts. When you attach a cable and tighten the bolt, you're squeezing
> > the lead between the bolt head and the cable lug. Lead is soft enough
> > to flow, so the connection can become loose. It's an open invitation
> > for a high-resistance connection, which causes heat, which softens the
> > lead more, so it flows, etc., etc. until you melt the post.
> >
> > Some have used threaded posts and dodged the bullet. There are too many
> > tales of woe concerning threaded posts to consciously decide to use them
> > over L or automotive posts if you have the choice.
> >
> > Chris
>
--
EVDL
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Jay Donnaway wrote:
> With threaded battery posts, couldn't an installer lock
> the cable lug between two nuts, rather than pulling the
> threaded stud loose by torquing down against the lead?
> This would seem to avoid the issue of greater exposed
> contact area (for accidental shorts between posts), while
> also saving weight and avoiding the tendency of automotive
> lugs to loosen up if overtorqued.
> -Jay
Hi Jay,
It's an interesting thought. It does sidestep the issue of the lead
flowing due to tightening the nut. It may be possible that the weight
of the cable being cantilevered off the bolt (depending on how the cable
run is shaped) might tend to loosen the bolt in the post. And I've
heard that you should never count on a threaded fastener as a conductor
- only as a clamp to make contact. We're talking outside my experience
here. Anyone with more knowledge care to comment?
Chris
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Rather ironic that they would market/describe that a powered bicycle will
travel a distance, run out of fuel and leave the rider "stuck in the middle
of nowhere". Doesn't matter if it's gas or electric, you always have your
good-old-legs to move the beast around. That's the *feature* of the powered
bicycle, it's aways a hybrid. The main limitation is how much do people
really want to manually peddle a bicycle with an extra 20-40+ lbs of weight,
for a gas-engine/tank or an electric-motor/battery.
Remember though, this is just marketing-spin for someone trying to promote
their new product. The media will parrot information/mis-information 10
times more than provide correct information/facts to the public. Look who's
paying for the advertising - the gas automakers.
-Ed T
-----Original Message-----
From: David (Battery Boy) Hawkins [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 10:38 PM
To: EV Discussion List
Subject: OT?: bicycle hub engine powered by gasoline
All,
Just when I thought the brown cloud on the front range of Colorado couldn't
get any worse, I see this article in the newspaper!
http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~33~1461300,00.html
And how about this quote from the article:
"This is an ingenious solution to a transportation problem," said Fields,
whose consulting practice extends worldwide. "With the e-bikes, you can
only go so far before you are out of juice and stuck in the middle of
nowhere. With the gasoline-powered bikes, you can travel about 200
miles on 1 gallon and fuel up just about anywhere."
Does this sound familiar? And you can't find more electrical outlets than
gas pumps? This is sad!
I couldn't find an e-mail address for the writer, Vicky Lio, but
[EMAIL PROTECTED] might work. Unfortunately, I'll be very busy through
the weekend, so I'll e-mail other Denver Electric Vehicle Council members
who might want to contact the writer to see if the Denver Post would print
a story about e-bikes and cars, and how they can be "fueled just about
anywhere"!
Dave (B.B.) Hawkins
Officer with the Denver Electric Vehicle Council
http://www.devc.org/
Lyons, CO
1979 Mazda RX-7 EV (192V of YT's, for the 17 year-old son!)
1989 Chevy S10 Ext. Cab (144V of floodies, for Ma and Pa only!)
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billglic wrote:
> What we need is a group from this list to form a nonprofit
> coop to design and manufacture a real battery EV for the
> public at a price that will compete, but
> remembering that a real battery EV will only replace the 2nd
> car that is used around town and possibly a short commuter
> (within 25 miles of home) for work and not able compete for
> traveling over 150 miles in one day.
> Top speed must be atleast 75 mph up hill on interstates to be safe.
> The real problem is location, location, location. Where
> would such an
> organization be located such that enough members would join to finance
> this endeavor. There are probably plenty of towns and
> cities looking
> for new business and jobs that still have old abandoned factories, tax
> incentives, etc. Stock would need to be sold to all members
> to finance
> the business, possibly sold to every member of the EV list,
> and if necessary transform to a regular for profit business
> to sell stock to the general public. Has anyone come up with
> a business plan with actual $ numbers, personel required, and
> a milestone chart ??? Menlo Park III, Bill, Glastonbury, CT
Hi Bill,
Tell you what. You take care of the financials - incentives, loan
guarantees, etc. I have a concept sketched out for a two seat
three-wheeler that meets all your requirements above. No need for FMVSS
testing because it's technically a motorcycle, not a car. Nice styling
that sets it apart without being too weird. Weighing under 1500 lbs.,
two A89s series-parallel shifted by a Zilla Z1K should make it scoot
along quite nicely. Or opt up to a Z2K. Sports car handling, no
stability problems. Can you say, "Fun ride"? For all the problems
Corbin caused, they did build acceptance for three-wheel EVs. Might as
well tap into it.
I can handle the mechanical end, we need someone to pick up the
electrical. Maybe 4-6 more people as staff, 5000-6000 sq. ft., probably
under a million dollars to get a prototype and all production tooling
ready to roll, maybe even a small pilot run of cars. It would be a
smaller start than I'd prefer, but a solid one. Get some revenue with
this car and then fund FMVSS testing on a "real" car.
We're really that close - and that far away - from having EVs available
to the public.
Chris
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Hello: Well I've terrified Victor Tikhonov (who has sold me a GORGEOUS Brusa
> charger) by departing from the Evercel recommended charging regime, and
> Rich/Joe will probably think I'm a pansy for not screwing the amps up to the roof.
> Truth is, I have two "extra" MB80's to "play" with. If Evercel is really cheap and
> Manzanita Micro is really nice I might send them the second potential abuse victim.
> That is: if they agree to whomp it, post results, not interrupt the charge/discharge
> abuse, and the EVDL all tell me to send a poor unsuspecting MB80 to them. The
> Evercel algorithm is 11 amps CC for 386 minutes or 15.8 volts at 25C, whichever
> comes first, followed by an hour at 5 amps CC. Due to Rich's post I have fudged the
> 5amp CC phase a bit longer. Last night I "overcharged" for a couple of hours
> longer at 5 amps and then pulled 76.9 amp hours out of this batt (which has a
> nameplate of a 64 amphour capacity). I haven't yet hooked up the Automagic brains
> and temp monitor that I intend to add, so the overcharge period was directly related
> to my bedtime. This poor abuse beast is charging now and I will add another
> 5AH if it will take it. Right now my temp calibration is my NIST certified left
> hand and it ain't getting warm. Internal resistance has dropped in these three
> cycles
> from 25 milliOhms to 23 milliOhms.
>
> I've uploaded some pics: of the battery, the charge profile and temp compensation
> from the manual, and my copper tubing cooling system to
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Evercel-EV/ and ummmm, the ability to store pics and
> files is one advantage of the Yahoo system IMHO. I shall expunge the
> meaningless eMeter fields and upload a charge and discharge spreadsheet of the third
> cyle referenced above, when it is done. I'd like comments on the charge
> algorithm, whether to send Rich/Joe a battery, and remarks on my (work in process)
> conditioning rig described below.
>
> I was able to buy two Sorensen DLM 20-30 600W DC Power Supplies on eBay. One of
> these is now in a nice plywood cabinet with the battery on top and an
> eMeter at the rear. Pics to follow as it gets finished. I will soon (next week I
> hope) be able to automagically control the Sorensen in two charge steps, monitor 4
> temp sensors, start/stop the discharge load (presently 3 spare VW Cabrio headlights
> and 3 50Watt RV bulbs totalling 21 amps), and log the eMeter data on a java
> TINI. My inteneded regime is as follows:
>
> 1) start logging
> 2) measure starting internal resistance
> 3) start discharge
> 4) terminate discharge
> 5) measure internal resistance
> 6) start two step timed and temp compensated charge
> 7) terminate charge
> 8) measure internal resistance
> 9) stop logging
>
> Once (if) I accomplish all that with the conditioner, I will cycle the first of two
> parallel strings of 10 MB80's 3x each (I guess) as they seem to need at least this
> much
> break-in before going into the car. Victor provided a formula which said that at
> these break-in impedances (25 milliOhms and hopefully headed south) and a 50
> amp draw, each batt might be generating 60watts of heat. While my intended cooling
> system can move 3gpm of coolant by the batteries I don't think I want to take
> on this heating load. The pic of the cooling system shows one copper strip soldered
> on to the tubing; a Physics PhD is convincing me i need more contact area, in
> addition to liberal heatsink goo, between the cooling tubing and the bottom of the
> MB80's metal case. Ugh! Roger Stockton is worried about the heat exchange part
> of this system but I have a handy 30,000 gallon heat sink (read swimming pool) which
> is about 15' and ambient minus (20-30) degrees F about 15 feet from the rear
> bumper from where the car normally charges. Heck, the wife won't mind a few loops
> of Norprene tubing in the pool!
>
> Coments? Criticisms? Corrections?
You don't need the cooling sytem!!! Not at 50 amps, and a over night
cool off is just fine.
Watch the voltage of every battery, and drag back the charge currrent to
keep below 16 volts.
Hold at 5 amps until the voltage starts to drop.
You can brutalize them in the bulk phase, and not make much heat.
Becarfull once one gets above 15.6.
We would love to start the REAL data collection on a MB80. 10 cylces of
breakin, or breakin until a Amphour peak is established. Then a
resistance full current test. I still think the Milli ohms are high by
your measurements. You are not pulling hard enough. Pull them at the
manufactures recomended Max for any real numbers. Then at 1/2 and then
at 1/4 then 1/10 Plot, publish. We do a volts/amps curve on a single
pull to what ever we can do without dropping below 7.6 volts.
Don't do this until you have found a amp hour maximum!!
76.0 from a 64 amp hour battery, this is GOOD!!!
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
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I just spoke with John Bidwell this morning on his progress on an Etek
version of the El Chopper. It is not done yet but the good news is that it
will be based on a readily available chassis unlike the Scott powered one
where you have to make the entire frame. He is basing it on a Honda 250
Rebel frame. There will also be a hybrid option.
Roderick
Roderick Wilde, President, EV Parts Inc.
Your Online EV Superstore
www.evparts.com
1-888-EV Parts (387-2787)
Phone: 360-385-7966 Fax: 360-385-7922
PO Box 221, 107 Louisa Street
Port Townsend, WA 98368
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