EV Digest 2864
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: EVLN(Bus Rapid Transit says electric rail is dirty)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Re: EVLN(Bus Rapid Transit says electric rail is dirty)
by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: EVLN(Bus Rapid Transit says electric rail is dirty)
by Harsha Godavari <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EVLN(Bus Rapid Transit says electric rail is dirty)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5) RAV4 EV range?
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: eMeter temp sensor
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: EVLN(Bus Rapid Transit says electric rail is dirty)
by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: EVLN(Bus Rapid Transit says electric rail is dirty)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9) Re: Threaded posts (was Ten EV-145's)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Manufacturing EVs (was: RE: EVLN(Bus Rapid Transit says electric rail is dirty)
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Threaded posts (was Ten EV-145's)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) cooling system
by fred whitridge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: EVLN(Bus Rapid Transit says electric rail is dirty)
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Segway Bush tumble: Got Video?
by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Segway Bush tumble: Got Video?
by "amadare" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: EVLN(EVs pushed into the slow lane, I drive my politics)-long
by Aubrey Wilder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Charging at campgrounds
by "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Starting torque
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Segway Bush tumble: Got Video?
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: MB80 third cycle, conditioner thoughts
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Charging at campgrounds
by "Tom Hudson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Manufacturing EVs (was: RE: EVLN(Bus Rapid Transit says electric rail is
dirty)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
23) Re: Segway Bush tumble: Got Video?
by Ryan Fulcher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Ampabout
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Segway Bush tumble: Got Video? WAY OT
by Matthew Muelver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) RE: RAV4 EV range?
by "Park, Youngchul" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: EVLN(Bus Rapid Transit says electric rail is dirty)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
28) RE: EVLN(EVs pushed into the slow lane, I drive my politics)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
29) Range predictopn (was Re: Ampabout)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Chris,
You need a two seat commuter and a large enough four seater for around
town
that has four wheels and both must be safe in a collision with other four
wheelers or the first major collision will end the business. Three
wheelers have the problem of being defined as a motorcycle in many states
and enclosed motorcycles are illegal in many states as Corbin already
found out the hard way.
Where are you located ?
Menlo Park III,
Bill
On Thu, 19 Jun 2003 13:40:52 -0400 "Chris Tromley"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> billglic wrote:
>
> > What we need is a group from this list to form a nonprofit
> > coop to design and manufacture a real battery EV for the
> > public at a price that will compete, but
> > remembering that a real battery EV will only replace the 2nd
> > car that is used around town and possibly a short commuter
> > (within 25 miles of home) for work and not able compete for
> > traveling over 150 miles in one day.
> > Top speed must be atleast 75 mph up hill on interstates to be
> safe.
> > The real problem is location, location, location. Where
> > would such an
> > organization be located such that enough members would join to
> finance
> > this endeavor. There are probably plenty of towns and
> > cities looking
> > for new business and jobs that still have old abandoned factories,
> tax
> > incentives, etc. Stock would need to be sold to all members
> > to finance
> > the business, possibly sold to every member of the EV list,
> > and if necessary transform to a regular for profit business
> > to sell stock to the general public. Has anyone come up with
> > a business plan with actual $ numbers, personel required, and
> > a milestone chart ??? Menlo Park III, Bill, Glastonbury, CT
>
> Hi Bill,
>
> Tell you what. You take care of the financials - incentives, loan
> guarantees, etc. I have a concept sketched out for a two seat
> three-wheeler that meets all your requirements above. No need for
> FMVSS
> testing because it's technically a motorcycle, not a car. Nice
> styling
> that sets it apart without being too weird. Weighing under 1500
> lbs.,
> two A89s series-parallel shifted by a Zilla Z1K should make it scoot
> along quite nicely. Or opt up to a Z2K. Sports car handling, no
> stability problems. Can you say, "Fun ride"? For all the problems
> Corbin caused, they did build acceptance for three-wheel EVs. Might
> as
> well tap into it.
>
> I can handle the mechanical end, we need someone to pick up the
> electrical. Maybe 4-6 more people as staff, 5000-6000 sq. ft.,
> probably
> under a million dollars to get a prototype and all production
> tooling
> ready to roll, maybe even a small pilot run of cars. It would be a
> smaller start than I'd prefer, but a solid one. Get some revenue
> with
> this car and then fund FMVSS testing on a "real" car.
>
> We're really that close - and that far away - from having EVs
> available
> to the public.
>
> Chris
>
>
________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 02:09 PM 6/19/2003 -0300, [EMAIL PROTECTED] stated:
You need a two seat commuter
Hmm, most commuters I know ride alone.
and a large enough four seater for around town
that has four wheels and both must be safe in a collision with other four
wheelers or the first major collision will end the business.
Define "other four wheelers". GM Suburban or Geo Metro?
Three wheelers have the problem of being defined as a motorcycle in many
states
Some people don't consider being a motorcycle as a "problem".
and enclosed motorcycles are illegal in many states as Corbin already
found out the hard way.
Define "many".
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Count me in Bill :-)
Regards
Harsha Godavari
aka The Mouse That Roared
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> What we need is a group from this list to form a nonprofit coop to design
> and manufacture a real battery EV for the public at a price that will
> compete, but
> remembering that a real battery EV will only replace the 2nd car that is
> used around town and possibly a short commuter (within 25 miles of home)
> for work and not able compete for traveling over 150 miles in one day.
> Top speed must be atleast 75 mph up hill on interstates to be safe.
> The real problem is location, location, location. Where would such an
> organization be located such that enough members would join to finance
> this endeavor. There are probably plenty of towns and cities looking
> for new business and jobs that still have old abandoned factories, tax
> incentives, etc. Stock would need to be sold to all members to finance
> the business, possibly sold to every member of the EV list, and if
> necessary transform to a regular for profit business to sell stock to the
> general public.
> Has anyone come up with a business plan with actual $ numbers, personel
> required, and a milestone chart ???
> Menlo Park III,
> Bill, Glastonbury, CT
>
> On Thu, 19 Jun 2003 11:40:47 -0400 "Chris Tromley"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > > WASHINGTON--(BUSINESS WIRE)--June 18, 2003--Electric rail
> > > transit systems generate significant air pollution,
> > > particularly where these systems are powered by electricity
> > > generated by fossil fuel power plants, according to a new
> > > study released today by the Breakthrough Technologies
> > > Institute. Bus Rapid Transit (BRT), a new transit technology
> > > that uses low-emission vehicles, produces significantly less
> > > pollution than electric rail, while costing a fraction of the
> > > amount to build and operate.
> > >
> > > "We can no longer overlook the source of electricity for our
> > > rail systems," said Bill Vincent, author of the study and a
> > > former transportation official during the Clinton
> > > Administration. "Using coal to power transit simply moves the
> > > tailpipe to the smokestack - the overall environmental
> > > benefit is questionable."
> >
> > I think we've seen the face of a new enemy. Poke around for info on
> > Breakthrough Technologies Institute and you'll find they are a rabid
> > promoter of fuel cells. For ten years now. So it's not just the
> > oil
> > industry that's fighting us, it's the fuel cell industry too.
> >
> > Hmmm. Maybe it's the oil industry acting through the fuel cell
> > industry?
> >
> > Who can we find to make a real battery EV available to the public?
> > That's the key. Get reasonably reliable EVs in customers' hands,
> > even
> > in modest numbers, and the reality will make shameless spin like the
> > above much less effective. Half a dozen of the people on this list
> > and
> > some support staff could make it happen. All we need is someone to
> > pony
> > up a few million. Peanuts in the automotive world. Anyone know of
> > any
> > funding sources?
> >
> > No, me neither.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
> Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
> Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi John,
Most commuters may ride alone, but might use that extra seat room for
carpool, grociers, etc. especially if it is their only means of private
transportation other than a bicycle or walking.
Other four wheeler means any other four wheeler on the road (car, pickup
truck, SUV, minivan, van) equal to passing Federal Crash / Safety
testing.
CT is one state where it is illegal to drive enclosed motorcycles.
You can research other states if you need more.
Many people that don't consider a motorcycle a problem should then ride
electric motorcycles.
Menlo Park III,
Bill
On Thu, 19 Jun 2003 11:25:32 -0700 John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
> At 02:09 PM 6/19/2003 -0300, [EMAIL PROTECTED] stated:
> >You need a two seat commuter
>
> Hmm, most commuters I know ride alone.
>
> >and a large enough four seater for around town
> >that has four wheels and both must be safe in a collision with
> other four
> >wheelers or the first major collision will end the business.
>
> Define "other four wheelers". GM Suburban or Geo Metro?
>
> >Three wheelers have the problem of being defined as a motorcycle in
> many
> >states
>
> Some people don't consider being a motorcycle as a "problem".
>
> >and enclosed motorcycles are illegal in many states as Corbin
> already
> >found out the hard way.
>
> Define "many".
>
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
> http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
>
>
________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What type of real-life ranges have folks been getting with the Toyota
RAV4 EV? Is the 126 advertised close to reality (reality meaning hills
and stop lights and such).
> Specifications show it can cover only 126 miles between
> charges that take between five hours and eight hours.
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
fred whitridge wrote:
>
> Hello: any idea what the eMeter uses as a temp sensor? Is this just a
> thermistor?
It's a National Semiconductor LM35. The circuit is figure 5 on their
data sheet.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 02:43 PM 6/19/2003 -0300, [EMAIL PROTECTED] stated:
Most commuters may ride alone, but might use that extra seat room for
carpool, grociers, etc. especially if it is their only means of private
transportation other than a bicycle or walking.
Fine, but that doesn't mean 2 seat. It means 1 seat + usable Cargo area.
(Hatchback Sparrows have quite a bit of cargo space.)
Other four wheeler means any other four wheeler on the road (car, pickup
truck, SUV, minivan, van) equal to passing Federal Crash / Safety testing.
Okay, but any small vehicle, fares poorly against a rolling jugernaut.
CT is one state where it is illegal to drive enclosed motorcycles.
You can research other states if you need more.
Last I know, there weren't more. 1 != many.
Many people that don't consider a motorcycle a problem should then ride
electric motorcycles.
Except that electric motorcycles don't keep the rain off, which is rather
important for a commuter. I commute on a BMW K100, which is a nice
bike. I far prefer the Sparrow for convenience. (Even though I have the
Jellybean style with minimal cargo space.)
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill, and others,
How many production electric motorcycles (not mopeds) are available / on the
market? Several have been prototyped, but have any gone into production?
Besides the Sparrow (for limited production - only about 350 built).
-Ed Thorpe
another Sparrow owner/commuter
enjoy soloing at 75mph in the diamond lane, no emissions
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 10:43 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: EVLN(Bus Rapid Transit says electric rail is dirty)
Hi John,
...
Many people that don't consider a motorcycle a problem should then ride
electric motorcycles.
Menlo Park III,
Bill
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jay Donnaway wrote:
> With threaded battery posts, couldn't an installer lock the cable
> lug between two nuts, rather than pulling the threaded stud loose
> by torquing down against the lead?
One problem is that the stud is normally a stainless steel bolt embedded
in the lead terminal. Stainless steel is a lousy electrical conductor,
so you would be passing all your current through a 5/16" dia. bolt,
which is roughly equivalent in conductivity to a piece of #8 copper
wire. That is far too small for the 100s of amps drawn by a normal
on-the-road EV.
A second problem is that stainless steel has a thick oxide coating, and
it takes a lot of pressure to make a good connection to it. That's OK
for the nuts holding your terminal, but there is very little pressure
between the lead and the stainless steel. Mechanical stress can produce
cracks between the bolt and lead, allowing acid to creep in, creating a
bad connection. I've seen studs that measured over an ohm between them
and the post. You had to tighten a nut on the stud to pull it tighter
against the lead to get a reasonable connection -- and this was of
course only temporary.
The 5/16" stud is only there as a low-current connection. It's fine for
75 amp golf carts, but not for high-current EVs.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
billglic wrote:
> You need a two seat commuter and a large enough four seater
> for around town that has four wheels and both must be safe in
> a collision with other four
> wheelers or the first major collision will end the business. Three
> wheelers have the problem of being defined as a motorcycle in
> many states and enclosed motorcycles are illegal in many
> states as Corbin already found out the hard way. Where are
> you located ? Menlo Park III, Bill
I personally believe it is self-defeating to assume you "need" a certain
base product line to be successful. All you need is to have a product
that will keep your business afloat. That gets your foot in the door.
Scale your startup to supply the initial demand. Sufficient profits to
fund new product development will then permit growth, hopefully to
include a four-wheeler.
Corbin only made something like 300 Sparrows. If they had used their
heads, they would still be in business without a four-wheeler. For that
matter, they could have doubled the quantity sold and be growing
steadily by now. Don't let yourself be too sharply defined by what "the
industry" dictates.
My concept should be plenty crash-worthy. As for legality, they're
legal in enough states to get the business off to a good start. I
believe Washington state actually redefined their laws to accommodate
the Sparrow.
I'm near Philadelphia. I'm not sure if enclosed three-wheelers are
legal in PA, but Governor Rendell just had a photo op at a ground
breaking for the new Oxygen electric scooter factory near Scranton. If
a business such as we're discussing actually got to the point of being a
serious proposal, there's a fair chance enclosed three-wheelers could be
*made* legal in PA.
I agree with the W.L. Gore (as in Gore-Tex) approach to business, where
you spread your manufacturing capabilities. Keep them local. Any state
will be more flexible in allowing enclosed three-wheelers if they can
attract more jobs.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
I'm in the process of changing my batteries right now and I have stainless nuts and
bolts but 'L' post batteries. Is stainless a problem here? Wouldn't most of the
current flow between the copper buss bars and the terminal?
Steve
In a message dated 6/19/2003 4:02:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, Lee Hart <[EMAIL
PROTECTED]> writes:
>Jay Donnaway wrote:
>> With threaded battery posts, couldn't an installer lock the cable
>> lug between two nuts, rather than pulling the threaded stud loose
>> by torquing down against the lead?
>
>One problem is that the stud is normally a stainless steel bolt embedded
>in the lead terminal. Stainless steel is a lousy electrical conductor,
>so you would be passing all your current through a 5/16" dia. bolt,
>which is roughly equivalent in conductivity to a piece of #8 copper
>wire. That is far too small for the 100s of amps drawn by a normal
>on-the-road EV.
>
>A second problem is that stainless steel has a thick oxide coating, and
>it takes a lot of pressure to make a good connection to it. That's OK
>for the nuts holding your terminal, but there is very little pressure
>between the lead and the stainless steel. Mechanical stress can produce
>cracks between the bolt and lead, allowing acid to creep in, creating a
>bad connection. I've seen studs that measured over an ohm between them
>and the post. You had to tighten a nut on the stud to pull it tighter
>against the lead to get a reasonable connection -- and this was of
>course only temporary.
>
>The 5/16" stud is only there as a low-current connection. It's fine for
>75 amp golf carts, but not for high-current EVs.
>--
>Lee A. Hart � � � � � � � �Ring the bells that still can ring
>814 8th Ave. N. � � � � � �Forget your perfect offering
>Sartell, MN 56377 USA � � �There is a crack in everything
>leeahart_at_earthlink.net �That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich: I don't plan on a cooling system for just 50 amp draws. In fact
I am planning on much bigger draws and hence two parallel strings.
I'm relieved to see the internal resistance dropping as I do some more
cycles. I believe out of the box was 50mOhms, then down to 25 on the
next cycle, back up to 33, and now down to 17 after only the bulk phase
of this last cycle. Amp hours seem to be in the 76 range despite
putting in enough to have taken me higher after the 76.9 on the third
cycle. I need to get some temp monitoring going. Thanks Lee for the
info on the LM35 which is cheaper from jameco than it is from Xantrex.
Still haven't freed up the old laptop logging away in the garage long
enough to post a charge discharge worksheet for the data hungry....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
billglic wrote:
> You need a two seat commuter
Judging from other comments I think I need to emphasize that the concept
I have *is* for a two seater. A two seat, tandem three wheeler. Real
car size, so you can get the weight distribution and cg correct.
Corbin's extreme design compromise to get the Sparrow to fit in
motorcycle parking is one of the major factors in their failure.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Judging from what we know about Bush, I would guess he forgot to turn it on
first.
S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 10:30 AM
Subject: RE: Segway Bush tumble: Got Video?
> And I thought it was impossible to fall off of one of those thangs.
> Just what the average disabled person needs, all you have to do to save
> yourself from a nasty tumble is make a flying leap.
>
>
> On Thu, 2003-06-19 at 08:37, amadare wrote:
> > Still looking for a video, but here is a good still of it.
> >
> > http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/06/13/bush.weekend.ap/
> >
> > Bobby
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
> > > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 10:07 AM
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: Segway Bush tumble: Got Video?
> > >
> > >
> > > Is there video of the Bush tumble on the Segway? Lawrence
> > > Rhodes.......
> > >
> > >
> >
> --
> EVDL
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
And why was he carrying a tennis racket on his first try with this
device??! The top two photos from the yahoo page clearly show a tennis
racket in his right hand, and I'm not sure he let go of it even by the
lower left picture, though it is gone by the lower right picture. Yeah,
I trust that kinda logic to be running this country. *not*
Bobby
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jon "Sheer" Pullen
> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 2:27 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Segway Bush tumble: Got Video?
>
>
> Judging from what we know about Bush, I would guess he forgot
> to turn it on
> first.
>
> S.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "EV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 10:30 AM
> Subject: RE: Segway Bush tumble: Got Video?
>
>
> > And I thought it was impossible to fall off of one of those thangs.
> > Just what the average disabled person needs, all you have
> to do to save
> > yourself from a nasty tumble is make a flying leap.
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 2003-06-19 at 08:37, amadare wrote:
> > > Still looking for a video, but here is a good still of it.
> > >
> > > http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/06/13/bush.weekend.ap/
> > >
> > > Bobby
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
> > > > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 10:07 AM
> > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > Subject: Segway Bush tumble: Got Video?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Is there video of the Bush tumble on the Segway? Lawrence
> > > > Rhodes.......
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > --
> > EVDL
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Geez, where did this guy get his info? This might have been current two
years ago.
> Toyota has just introduced the $43,000 RAV4 EV, the first
> compact sport utility vehicle for the retail market fueled
> by household current.
These aren't even available any more. The Toyota website doesn't admit that
they ever made them.
> This follows the ongoing test-marketing begun in 2001 of
> Ford's lease-only Think city two-seater, which so far has
> been embraced by 23 motorists in the San Diego area.
Ford pulled all it's Think cities and sold the entire company back to
Norway.
> That does not necessarily mean the all-electric car concept
> is bound for the junkyard - at least in California.
>
> The state is mandating that 2 percent of cars sold there in
> 2003 be pure, battery-operated electric cars.
>
> That requirement is within a wider specification that 10
> percent of car sales be comprised of zero-emission
> vehicles.
Hah! This mandate was killed.
> The state also is doing its part to spur all-electric car
> sales by offering substantial incentive programs to
> consumers and fleet operators.
>
> Buyers of the Toyota RAV4 EV are eligible for up to $9,000
> in state rebates over three years.
This rebate ended December 31, 2002. Now you can only get money back if you
buy as part of a fleet.
Not only that, but I was recently informed that, yes, ZEV's can drive alone
in the carpool lane, but only certain ones built by major manufacturers.
Home done conversions don't count and apparently neither do Jet Industries
products.
Do I sound bitter? :)
Aubrey
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi!
Question: Anyone ever charge their car at campgrounds? What are the typical
protocols, and best practices to get a on-the-road fill up at a location
like this? What kind of plugs should I bring, and what kind of extension
cords would be best?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Dymaxion wrote:
>
> No, going 1st to 5th would drop the RPM enough you go from the
> constant power region to the constant current region.
>
> Looking at your web page, your spreadsheet shows the constant power
> region to be 3500 rpm to about 10,200 rpm. As long as the motor stays
> in this rpm range, the drive wheels will deliver the same torque to
> the road no matter what the gear! (Except for some minor variation
> due to efficiency changing with rpm.)
>
> For example:
>
> First gear, 8000 to 10000 rpm (let's guess about 40 to 50 mph)
> Second gear, about 5700 to 7100 rpm (40 to 50 mph)
> Third gear, about 4100 to 5100 rpm (40 to 50 mph)
Exactly theoretically right! The thing is in practice you
almost never run AC system in constant power mode.
I tend to keep ACRX below 5000 RPM and upshift when exceed
5500...6000 RPM, so practically never experience the same
acceleration since staying in constant torque (current)
mode.
> would all accelerate at the same rate!
>
> To drag race your car, you'd probably turn in the best times by
> shifting 1st to 3rd, and saving the time the 2nd shift would have
> taken. (Or if 1st is just wheel spin, then racing 2nd to 4th may be
> better yet.)
This can be easily simulated, I can do that.
> The reason this works mathematically is power is constant.
>
> Power = constant = torque * rpm
I understand that, but like I said you pretty much have constant
power for DC motor at any RPM, but for AC only starting
from few thousand RPM, I *practically* one never drives like that.
> lower rpm has more torque, each shift lowers the rpm by some
> constant, but raises the torque by the same constant.
>
> Caveat: AC motors tend to have this nice constant power region, but I
> don't think that extends to series DC.
I'll let DC experts to comment on this. I think it does, but
the torque seem to fall quicker as RPM increases.
>
> In any case, I think it would be great if you did a test like the
> example above, and posted the results.
ACRX is currently down for the pack replacement (PbA->LiIon).
Victor
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--- Begin Message ---
rEVenge of the EVs!
On 6/19/03 2:03 PM, "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 08:06:43 -0700
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Segway Bush tumble: Got Video?
>
> Is there video of the Bush tumble on the Segway? Lawrence Rhodes.......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> You don't need the cooling sytem!!! Not at 50 amps, and a over night
> cool off is just fine.
Yes, this should be fine.
In Cal Edison they charge Evercels with 200A in bulk phase and
just have fans blowing on the batteries (in open air). Apparently,
no problems so far and good results. Don't know much details.
So I think extensive cooling even at 50A charging is not necessary.
Driving is different issue...
Victor
ps. At high charge rates your probably better track Ah in, rather
than rely on the voltage to switch to next step (unless there is
stable correlation between the two).
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> Question: Anyone ever charge their car at campgrounds? What are
> the typical
> protocols, and best practices to get a on-the-road fill up at a location
> like this? What kind of plugs should I bring, and what kind of extension
> cords would be best?
I charged my Force at campgrounds on a cross-country trip a few years ago.
I phoned the manager of each campground prior to my trip to be sure I could
get plugged in. I gave each an estimate of when I'd arrive and how long I'd
be plugged in. Nobody had a problem with it, I offered to pay for the
electricity and their trouble, I think they each asked for $5 for the couple
of hours I was plugged in.
The main issue was 120 vs. 240V power. As far as I can tell, most
campgrounds only have 120V outlets for RVs. They're typically something
like 120V, 30A outlets. I use 240V to charge and specifically asked for
240V, they all said they had it. Campground 1 did have it, it was a
crows-foot outlet on one of their shop buildings. No problem. Campground 2
also had 240V, he had it in a shop building and used it for welding. OK.
Campground 3 said they had it, but when I went to plug in it turned out to
be 120V! The owner thought the big outlet meant 240V. I wound up plugging
in to the outlet for the electric dryer in the campground's laundry room
(luckily, nobody was doing laundry).
I ended up using a standard crows-foot plug for all these locations, but be
aware that most of the campground hookups you'll find will be 120V unless
it's something like a 50 or 60A hookup. Talk to the managers, hopefully
they'll know what they have.
If you just charge on 120V, you won't have a problem.
See http://www.portev.org/solectria/ho/amherst.htm for details on my
cross-country trip. Hey -- Coincidence! It was exactly four years ago
today!
-Tom
Thomas Hudson
http://portdistrict5.org -- 5th District Aldermanic Website
http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More
http://portgardenclub.org -- Port Washington Garden Club
http://portlightstation.org -- Light Station Restoration
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Hi Chris,
Good luck in your endeavor to provide a three wheel enclosed motorcycle
that is better and longer lasting than the Sparrow. I will not be
joining you as I will continue in my efforts to create four wheelers.
Menlo Park III,
Bill
On Thu, 19 Jun 2003 15:02:42 -0400 "Chris Tromley"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> billglic wrote:
>
> > You need a two seat commuter and a large enough four seater
> > for around town that has four wheels and both must be safe in
> > a collision with other four
> > wheelers or the first major collision will end the business.
> Three
> > wheelers have the problem of being defined as a motorcycle in
> > many states and enclosed motorcycles are illegal in many
> > states as Corbin already found out the hard way. Where are
> > you located ? Menlo Park III, Bill
>
> I personally believe it is self-defeating to assume you "need" a
> certain
> base product line to be successful. All you need is to have a
> product
> that will keep your business afloat. That gets your foot in the
> door.
> Scale your startup to supply the initial demand. Sufficient profits
> to
> fund new product development will then permit growth, hopefully to
> include a four-wheeler.
>
> Corbin only made something like 300 Sparrows. If they had used
> their
> heads, they would still be in business without a four-wheeler. For
> that
> matter, they could have doubled the quantity sold and be growing
> steadily by now. Don't let yourself be too sharply defined by what
> "the
> industry" dictates.
>
> My concept should be plenty crash-worthy. As for legality, they're
> legal in enough states to get the business off to a good start. I
> believe Washington state actually redefined their laws to
> accommodate
> the Sparrow.
>
> I'm near Philadelphia. I'm not sure if enclosed three-wheelers are
> legal in PA, but Governor Rendell just had a photo op at a ground
> breaking for the new Oxygen electric scooter factory near Scranton.
> If
> a business such as we're discussing actually got to the point of
> being a
> serious proposal, there's a fair chance enclosed three-wheelers
> could be
> *made* legal in PA.
>
> I agree with the W.L. Gore (as in Gore-Tex) approach to business,
> where
> you spread your manufacturing capabilities. Keep them local. Any
> state
> will be more flexible in allowing enclosed three-wheelers if they
> can
> attract more jobs.
>
> Chris
>
>
________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wonder if that golf cart is gas or electric powered.
L8r
Ryan
amadare wrote:
Still looking for a video, but here is a good still of it.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/06/13/bush.weekend.ap/
Bobby
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 10:07 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Segway Bush tumble: Got Video?
Is there video of the Bush tumble on the Segway? Lawrence
Rhodes.......
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--- Begin Message ---
Neon wrote:
> I previously wrote:
> >> True, but I'm thinking of something smarter. If voltage is
compared
> >> to load it seems possible to figure out the capacity on the
fly. Then
> >> the capacity doesn't have to be programmed in; it will
adjust the
> >> capacity based on what the pack is showing, giving built in
pack
> >> capacity adjustment (so it will figure out when the pack
has only 50%
> >> of its capacity left).
>
> Lee wrote:
> >Yes! This is one of the big failings of the E-meter. It
assumes the
> >operator is smart enough to configure the E-meter correctly
(amphours,
> >Peukert exponent, CEF, charge parameters, etc.). Its State of
Charge,
> >Low Battery, Fully Charged, and other indicators only work
when it is
> >configured properly.
> >
> >But, the average owner doesn't know how to set them! And the
E-meter
> >manual is no help! So, most E-meters are set up wrong, and
provide bad
> >information.
>
> It more than that (setting up the e-meter is a pain with their
> directions though). The capacity of a battery changes over its
life.
> You set the numbers in your e-meter and it thinks your 5 year
old
> batteries can still put that much power out. Another annoyance
is the
> e-meter tracks amp hours. 60% SOC is more than 1/2 your range
used.
> The bar graph gauge needs to track more in terms of watt hours
> available.
This capacity of the battery changing over its life is one of the
key issues for me as far as pre-programming your emeter is
concerned. We need some way of figuring that out, but the only
way I know of is to load-test the battery. Then feed that
information into the "computer". But that still isn't going to
help with a cell that dies or goes low-capacity between load
tests. How will a computer/e-meter deal with a cell that
basically goes off a cliff at some distance? Most cells seem to
drop off suddenly at the end (I presume it's because there is no
more active material). It's rather hard to tell in many cases
that you're coming up to the cliff - like driving in a
sandstorm... It's what gives you that spongy feeling (bigger
voltage drop) at the pedal at 25 miles (first time there in a few
months), when you thought you had 60 miles range.
I guess we're really amp-ing about on this thread...
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
www.geocities.com/chursch/bizcard.bmp
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On Thursday, June 19, 2003, at 03:23 PM, Chip Gribben wrote:
rEVenge of the EVs!
Yup, an EV assassination attack. I wonder who rigged it to dump him
like that?
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You get better range in city driving. My driving is about 80% freeway.
I try not to exceed 70mph.
I usually do not drive to the bottom. But I once drove 120+ miles
before the "Turtle" mode came up. At this point, you can drive further,
but power is limited. I heard that someone drove about 140 miles with one
charge.
Young
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Coate [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 11:49 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RAV4 EV range?
What type of real-life ranges have folks been getting with the Toyota
RAV4 EV? Is the 126 advertised close to reality (reality meaning hills
and stop lights and such).
> Specifications show it can cover only 126 miles between
> charges that take between five hours and eight hours.
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
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Hi Harsha,
Where are you located ?
I am in Glastonbury, CT.
Wouldn't it be nice if us mice did eventually electrically roar :-) .
Now we just need organization.
Menlo Park III,
Bill
On Thu, 19 Jun 2003 13:24:43 +0000 Harsha Godavari <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
> Count me in Bill :-)
>
> Regards
> Harsha Godavari
> aka The Mouse That Roared
________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Audrey,
In California, ZEVs (and CNG vehicles) have been soloing the diamond lanes
since July 2001.
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/carpool/carpool.htm
Some conversions have been allowed, but they are reviewed on an individual
basis, probably since they may be difficult to distinguish from the all-gas
versions.
-Ed Thorpe
Aubrey Wilder wrote:
(snip)
Not only that, but I was recently informed that, yes, ZEV's can drive alone
in the carpool lane, but only certain ones built by major manufacturers.
Home done conversions don't count and apparently neither do Jet Industries
products.
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--- Begin Message ---
Chuck Hursch wrote:
>
> Neon wrote:
> > I previously wrote:
> > >> True, but I'm thinking of something smarter. If voltage is
> compared
> > >> to load it seems possible to figure out the capacity on the
> fly....
> > Lee wrote:
> > >Yes! This is one of the big failings of the E-meter. ...
> > >But, the average owner doesn't know how to set them!
> > So, most E-meters are set up wrong, and provide bad
> > >information.
>
> This capacity of the battery changing over its life is one of the
> key issues for me as far as pre-programming your emeter is
> concerned. We need some way of figuring that out, but the only
> way I know of is to load-test the battery.
IMHO: I don't know capabilities if e-meter, never had one,
but no hardware can predict sudden failures or irregular catastrophic
battery capacity decrease due to operator error (dry/reversed cell
or melted post) or developing hidden battery factory defect.
No different from the gas car which you know how many gallons
[EV=Ah] you put in, but never exactly sure how many miles it
translated to due to accidental hole in the gas tank [EV=accidental
dried/reversed cell] so the energy storage is shrunk.
For normal batteries used within spec, the rate of capacity loss
vs aging *for given driving pattern* can be tested and applied to
begin with. Then it's only a function of a software to keep
reducing available Ah each cycle by a small fraction accordingly.
So all you need is a gadget calculating instant W and integrating
over time to keep track of Wh consumed. Then it subtracts it from
initial Wh battery can deliver (which is being adjusted as described
above) to get available Wh left. Finally, knowing Wh/mile consumption
(easily calculated if distance data, temp adjustment factor and
Peukert are fed in) software multiplies Wh left by this number
and viola - you get accurate enough gadget always showing
remaining miles in all conditions, regardless whether you suddenly
get flat tire or strong front wind. In this case it will suddenly
roll back faster, because increased Wh/mile consumption, but
still predict remaining miles accurately (for practical purposes).
Victor
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