EV Digest 2875
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Was:Re: CalCars
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: regen braking
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-In Hybrid Prototypes
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-In Hybrid Prototypes
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-In Hybrid Prototypes
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Test run of Citroen with new batteries. Question re breakin.
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Re: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-In Hybrid Prototypes
by Felix Kramer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: DC controler questions.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Charging at campgrounds
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: DC controler questions.
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) So What's So New About Power Factor Corrected EV Battery Chargers
by russco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: regen braking
by "The Levine Family" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Grid-charged HEVs, was Re: CalCars
by "The Levine Family" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Cruzin', was watthours/mile
by "The Levine Family" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) The first thing *every* non-profit needs: lawyers!
by "The Levine Family" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: So What's So New About Power Factor Corrected EV Battery Chargers
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-In Hybrid Prototypes
by "Coallier, Steve" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: AC-to-DC motor controllers as chargers
by "The Levine Family" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Cruzin', was watthours/mile
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: So What's So New About Power Factor Corrected EV Battery Chargers
by "James Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) EV Album
by "James Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Power of DC this Sunday June 29
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Watthours/Mile (Was: Imperialistic measurements)
by "Adams, Lynn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
While agree that the charter needs to be upheld, I wouldn't dismiss an
effort to build a hybrid as easy. You have twice as much to go wrong,
and a charge sustaining strategy can be a real pain. Especially if the
user gets to decide if/ when they want to plug in. And drivetrain
integration on a parallel HEV is a challenge, be it mechanical, controls
or both.
It looks like they want to use decent batteries and do testing of the
product when they are done. There are worse things to do than EV/HEV
testing at either a system level or component level.
Maybe we will get a cheaper AC or sepex drive out of the deal, or some
other benefit.
Seth
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>
> Right on Rich. Lawrence Rhodes....
>
> > I sell Power factor corrected Chargers for Evs. Want one???
> > I have 2 street machine EVs. One that has world records in the NEDRA
> > races.
> >
> > I could build a fleet of Evs for 1 to 2 Mill, not a Dozzen. 150K is
> > rediculas for a Ev of any type.
> >
> > This sounds like a internet Scam. Or else you folks have not realized
> > that the fat days of the late 90s are long past.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Rich Rudman
> > Manzanita Micro
> > www.manzanitamicro.com
> > 1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
> >
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
jeff said to reply:
I am copying back to list from an email, I hope this is kosher.
So the voltage to the motor created by PWM is really a farse? and
battery voltage is all that counts?
This is where I am fuziest, in a SMPS the voltage is based on the amount
of the pulse width that we allow to energize the inductor. In the PWM
motor controller, we are talking about the inductor being the windings
themself?, So when we look on the oscilliscope we see 1/2 the battery
voltage on a phase if we are at 50% Duty cycle. Is this just not
reversible, we can chop the bat voltage down thru an inductor but we
can't boost it up to battery? From the motor's point of view wouldn't
it's back emf be greater than the applied voltage and it would flow
current backwards. If it can't go into the batteries does it just become
heat?
BTW. I am considering non brush commuted motors; Sep-ext, BLDC,
slip-ring, induction and the like. I can't see any reason to not have a
transmission or to have a clutch. In a 3 phase environment, getting
"fused on" won't allow runaway. The Rest of the idea : A close ratio
sequential gearbox with integral electric motor and no 90degree turns
located at the previous rear-end location in a truck. With spray oiling
and straight cut gears, the efficiecy of the overall drivetrain would be
high.
On the DC side, what if I got 2 controllers and 2 pot boxes and 2 sets
of brushes. 1 pot box is on the optimized power brushes and chops
voltage down to control motor;it's on the go pedal. The other pot box
and controller is on second set of brushes and varies the regen torque
by raising the effective voltage back to the pack; it is on the brake
pedal. some kind of killer DPDT relay tied to brake light hehe
the reply was
Hi ,
Read your regen comments on the EV List Archive.....
Read J.Smalley's comments also.....
I'm using Yahoo Groups to send this message......
U R making it all too complex.
A brush motor is "optimized" as either a motor or a generator.
Only way to do both, is to adjust brush "advance" to zero.
brushes advanced one way = better motor(more torque)
brushes advanced other way = better generator
zero "advance" compromises *both*, so neither is at optimum
performance utilization.
A generator will start to charge batteries when it's output
voltage exceeds the battery voltage. Also, batts are going
to pull amt of amps based on gen voltage and internal batt
resistance. What this means, is--as (regen)amps go up,
gen will "load" down, making gen voltage drop. U *do* save
the "diode drops" of an alternator, since the commutator acts
as the rectifier. But i think alternators are more efficient
in making electricity.
i've alway thought it better to have a "separate" generator
for the regen. Believe U suggested something like it(or someone
did). A generator, or better an alternator, belt-driven off the
traction motor tail shaft.
Either way, U *will* need some sort of voltage/amp regulation.
Weather its an APU, or regen, U *Must* control the amt of amps
that are flowing. Both to save the generator AND the batts!!
Build the EV with a series DC motor for simplicity and lower
voltage (lower that the AC drives). Allow room for an alternator
and pulleys and belts. Do regen retrofit later after EV is running
and U are sure everything is working OK.
Good luck on your EVentures!!
Sacramento
jeff said:
I am still trying to wrap my head around regenerative brakeing. Does
the majority of the energy for regenerative brakeing come from the
induction in the motor or the back emf created? if it is purely backemf
then what are interpoles for and how does a SRM motor give regen. If it
is purely generated voltage, does the BLDC motor have a distinct
advantage in regen? articles like
http://www.etvi.org/High_Tech/New_Electric_HiTech_right.html seem to
indicate that regenerative brakeing can create voltages and currents
that can exceed MOSFET ratings and destroy the MOSFETs. hmmmm
So... It gets shoved back into the controller, cause the back emf is
greater than the apparent controller voltage (which is from the buck
converter made from the chopper and the motor windings???)
so the lower the pulse width the greater the difference in winding
voltage and the greater the current, but without much of a pulse width,
how does it get to the battery.
I am so confused.
If I create a 2 stage controller with optimized first stage to set
voltage and smaller silicon h-bridges, will regen still find it's way
back to the battery?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I saw Claire Bell's name mentioned. Maybe we could get her to email the
list about her experience with this group. Lawrence Rhodes.....
----------------------------------------------------
This mailbox protected from junk email by Matador
from MailFrontier, Inc. http://info.mailfrontier.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Felix Kramer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 1:17 PM
Subject: Re: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-In Hybrid Prototypes
> In response to a few comments on the list: I'm sorry we offended Peter Van
> DerWal by posting; I've heard from a few list members that they're happy
to
> know someone is trying a new way to bring vehicles that will be "mostly
> EVs" to the marketplace.
>
> And Rich Rudman, we're a sincere group of people, not seeking any benefit
> for ourselves. Of course, already-designed EVs could be built much more
> cheaply. We're talking about designing, building and testing a sequence of
> conversions of an existing vehicle in such a way that we demonstrate the
> practicality and benefits of plug-in hybrids to car buyers and then
> convince car makers that there's a viable mass-market vehicle and money to
> be made producing them.
>
> Our cost estimates of $1-$2 million for a dozen one-off prototypes come
> from respected people who have built vehicles and have agreed to be
CalCars
> advisors and endorsers (you'll probably recognize many of their names):
> http://www.calcars.org/about.html
> http://www.calcars.org/kudos.html
>
> Regards, Felix Kramer
>
> Regards, Felix Kramer
> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> Felix Kramer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Founder, California Cars Initiative
> http://www.calcars.org
> PO Box 61222 Palo Alto, CA
> cell 650.520.5555 voice 650.599.9992
> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Kind of harsh Peter?
I think they may have good intentions for EV's
This is not the usual increase your.... battery
size type of AD.
Rod.
--- Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Mon, 2003-06-23 at 11:43, Felix Kramer wrote:
> > Dear EV enthusiast
> >
> > The non-profit California Cars Initiative is
> talking with some
> > California entrepreneurs who are considering
> joining CalCars'
> > prototype development project. Below, you'll find
> details of the
> > opportunity to buy and test one of about a dozen
> prototype
> > plug-in hybrids. The invitation is also at
> > http://www.calcars.org/prototypebuyers.html
> >
> > We recognize that most EV owners don't have
> substantial resources.
> > But many of you know people who do!
> >
> > Please forward this email broadly to anyone you
> think may fit the
> > profile of a "Super-Early Adopter
>
> I'm sorry but such blatant advertisement is a direct
> violation of the list charter.
> Regardless of what the product is, this list is NOT
> for spamming people.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 2003-06-23 at 19:25, Rod Hower wrote:
> Kind of harsh Peter?
Harsh about what? The fact that it was a blatant violation of the list
charter?
Good intentions doesn't mean it's OK for them to violate the rules and
use the EVDL to troll for investors.
P.S. If I knew someone who was willing to pay $150,000 for a hybrid, I'd
build them one myself, charge them $100,000, and pocket a tidy profit.
> I think they may have good intentions for EV's
> This is not the usual increase your.... battery
> size type of AD.
> Rod.
>
> --- Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Mon, 2003-06-23 at 11:43, Felix Kramer wrote:
> > > Dear EV enthusiast
> > >
> > > The non-profit California Cars Initiative is
> > talking with some
> > > California entrepreneurs who are considering
> > joining CalCars'
> > > prototype development project. Below, you'll find
> > details of the
> > > opportunity to buy and test one of about a dozen
> > prototype
> > > plug-in hybrids. The invitation is also at
> > > http://www.calcars.org/prototypebuyers.html
> > >
> > > We recognize that most EV owners don't have
> > substantial resources.
> > > But many of you know people who do!
> > >
> > > Please forward this email broadly to anyone you
> > think may fit the
> > > profile of a "Super-Early Adopter
> >
> > I'm sorry but such blatant advertisement is a direct
> > violation of the list charter.
> > Regardless of what the product is, this list is NOT
> > for spamming people.
> >
> >
>
--
EVDL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Normally don't beat on them for atleast 20 cycles.
Stay above 50 % DOD until atleast 20 cycles.
I don't know about high amp discharge rate during break-in period, but it
probably isn't a bad idea to keep the discharge rate below 200 amps.
Sagging from 96 volts down to 74 under 450 amps is definitely beating on
them
as 74/16 batteries = 4.625 volts per 6 volt battery. 5.25 volts is 100
% DOD.
You really should not sag below 5.25 volts per battery (84 volts) during
break-in period or any other period for that matter or you will decrease
battery cycle life.
315 wh/mi isn't that bad for a heavy non-aerodynamic vehicle.
What is the gross weight of the EV ?
How did the hydraulic suspension work out under the lead-acid load ?
Did you hit any bumps or pot holes ??
My dozen 10 year old Trojan T145s got down to 10 miles per charge last
week and I replaced them with fifteen (15) seven year old Douglas EV137s
that have been sitting (charged monthly and on power pulses) for about 4
years.
This increases system voltage from 72 to 90 and should give the old 1969
Beetle a little better top speed and range.
Menlo Park III,
Bill
On Sun, 22 Jun 2003 22:09:00 -0600 Michael Hoskinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
> Please set me straight if I am killing my batteries...
>
> I got the new batteries installed in the D - 1280 lbs of
> US-250HC. Had to brace the trunk, which was sagging a bit under
> the weight of 5 of the big guys. Put the doors back on and spent
> some time adjusting them. I figured that it was about time I
> hooked up the parking brake. I paid for my policy of never
> putting off till tomorrow that which can wait till the next day.
> I had to take apart the whole dash just to get enough access to
> hook up the cable. Jeesh. Then it was reaching into
> difficult-to-access areas to adjust the calipers. That should
> have been done long ago, before the steering rack, hydraulic
> pump, controller and batteries went in. The headlights are wired
> kinda strange on this car. I thought it was something I did but
> it was jsut another example of French engineering: there are two
> bulbs in each of the low beam lights, and one bulb in each of the
> high beams. One of the low beam lights comes on with the high
> beams, the other comes on when the high beams are off. It's like
> there are 4 high beams. Oh well. Time for a test drive.
>
> Gisele and I belted up and I turned the key. The motor fan came
> on, the "drive power" light came on and so did the friendly green
> "Canadian Electric Vehicles" light. I touched the pedal and she
> slowly crept out of the garage. "The suspension didn't come
> up!", said Gisele. Oh, ok, turn on the pump switch. Must be
> nervous. So a few 10's of seconds of pump clatter and we're on
> our way in second gear.
>
> It was gray and cold, not a very pleasant first day of summer.
> There was just a slight drizzle, but enough that I had to
> occasionally turn on the newly installed wipers. I turned off
> the pump so I could hear the motor and tranny wind up. 3rd gear,
> it's all right, 4th gear, hang on tight. Faster, faster...
>
> At 50-55 mph wind noise was terrible, especially at the roof
> seam; I had not installed the gasket, planning to wait until the
> final paint job. The roof is fiberglass, held on with screws.
> Also, there is not rubber seal on the bottoms of the doors, and
> of course, no carpets. The fresh air ducts are not connected,
> that way I can smell any smoke... But it's mine and it works.
> We even passed a cop going the other way, who luckily didn't stop
> us because I haven't got the insurance yet. Handling is crisp and
> sure. Braking is awesome. And no smoke.
>
> I tried to keep the acceleration down somewhat, but the EV-Dash
> did report a 450 amp surge with a voltage sag to 74 volts (for
> one second). Yikes. The next trip I set up EV-Dash to beep at
> me at 300 amps. Pretty cool program. Thanks Pete Ohler!! (One
> of my Grade 8 teachers was named Pete Ohler. He was place kicker
> for the BC Lions CFL football team. Won the Grey Cup for the
> Lions by faking a field goal attempt and throwing a pass. At
> least that's what I remember).
>
> When I got back I had used 3.92 KWh on the e-meter for 12.5
> miles. That's about 315 watt-hours/mile. I'm hoping it will be
> better once I get the rest of the body work on (ie, the bottom
> half of the nose and a proper belly pan). I'm also hoping that
> things will improve when I get more used to the characteristics
> of the sepex system.
>
> These batteries are supposed to give 170 Ah at the 1 hour rate
> (275 at 20 hour rate). I took out about 45 Ah.
>
> My question: How much should I baby these batteries and for how
> long? Is 300 amp acceleration ok? Is it more important to keep
> acceleration down or total draws down during the break in period?
>
> Mike Hoskinson
> -ev grin slowly developing on his skeptical face.
>
>
________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In response to Bruce Parmenter's comments, I stand corrected, and will in
the future as much as possible point to a URL.
And thanks, Bruce, for all your efforts on so many EV-related web sites
(and, as seen at
http://geocities.com/brucedp/index4.html
for "getting" the value of "grid-rechargeable" gasoline-electric hybrids,
fuel cell-electric hybrids, etc.)
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
Felix Kramer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Founder, California Cars Initiative
http://www.calcars.org
PO Box 61222 Palo Alto, CA
cell 650.520.5555 voice 650.599.9992
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael Hoskinson wrote:
> Since you mentioned it... Can you explain what interpoles are?
> Are they separate windings? I'm having a hard time picturing
> this... Are you talking about the field coils or the armature?
I can give you a simplified explanation.
You get torque in an electric motor because there are two magnets (or
electromagnets). One is the stator (the non-moving outside case) and the
other is the rotor (the spinning part, called the armature on DC
motors). With magnets, opposite poles attract (North and South). It
turns out that you get the most torque, best efficiency, least arcing
etc. when the two magnetic fields are at right angles to each other. So,
looking at the end view of a motor (view with fixed width font):
___________
/ __ __ \
/ / |_S_| \ \
/ / _____ \ \
| | / \ | |
| | |N S| | |
| | \_____/ | |
\ \ ___ / /
\ \__| N |__/ /
\___________/
The rotor is the circle in the center. The shaft would be pointing
toward your face. You see the North and South poles created by the
windings on the armature, but I won't show the windings themselves for
simplicity. Likewise, you seen the North and South poles of the stator
(field) at the top and bottom, but not the windings. The field could be
produced by permanent magnets, too.
Since the rotor and stator magnetic fields are at right angles, the
motor tries to turn. The rotor North pulls up toward the field South,
and the rotor South pulls down toward the field North. The motor rotates
clockwise.
But, at really high armature currents, the rotor's field gets very
strong. So strong, in fact, that it can "induce" a field in the case.
You see this effect when any non-magnetized piece of iron comes close to
a magnet; the magnet induces a magnetic field in the iron, so it too
behaves like a magnet.
So, the strong armature current induces a weaker pair of poles in the
iron casing of the motor, directly opposite the rotor's North and South
poles. I will illustrate these induced poles with "n" and "s".
___________
/ __ __ \
/ / |_S_| \ \
/ / _____ \ \
| | / \ | |
| |s |N S| n| |
| | \_____/ | |
\ \ ___ / /
\ \__| N |__/ /
\___________/
Now, these induced poles are in the wrong place. They try to prevent the
rotor from turning; they try to hold it right where it is! This is
called "armature reaction". It reduces motor torque, efficiency, and
increases brush arcing.
There are several ways to reduce this effect. One is to provide a large
air gap between the poles. A PM motor uses powerful magnets so there is
always a very strong field. On a series motor, the field winding is in
series with the armature so whenever the armature has high current, so
does the field. Shift the stator or rotor field slightly to compensate
(usually done by brush positioning).
These solutions reduce, but don't completely eliminate the problem. If
you want to run the motor with low field current (generator operation),
or run it in reverse (so the direction of brush shift would be wrong for
one direction or the other), or need to run at very high voltages (where
arcing must be absolutely minimized), then stronger measures are needed.
Interpoles are a way to eliminate armature reaction. They are a second
set of poles, positioned halfway between the main poles. They are wound
with coils connected in series with the armature. Whatever current flows
in the armature also flows in the interpoles. So, the interpoles
generate a magnetic field equal to the field induced by armature
reaction. But, the interpole windings are wound in the opposite
direction, so their magnetic field CANCELS the armature reaction. The
result is that there is no armature reaction; it no longer matters
whether you use the machine as a motor or generator, or which direction
you run it. The optimal brush position for minimal arcing does not
change with current or direction.
___________
/ __ __ \
/ / |_S_| \ \
/ / _____ \ \
| |_ / \ _| |
| n_||N S||_s |
| | \_____/ | |
\ \ ___ / /
\ \__| N |__/ /
\___________/
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I wonder what a KOA would charge for a couple hours to "recharge my
batteries" and "take a shower."
Has anyone tried that approach?
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 1:50 PM
Subject: Re: Charging at campgrounds
> I could see doing the campground charging thing with an EV if I
> had a tent and had a near-perfect assurance of having a live
> outlet to charge from. KOA seems to be ok with using an outlet
> to charge from if you rent an RV space. We never told the
> Willits management, and nobody ever asked, or cared as far as I
> could tell. The outlet is there - use it. Nighttime ok; I might
> be concerned with daytime RV-space rental and having a hassle
> about charging. But hey, you paid for your space...
>
> Chuck Hursch
> Larkspur, CA
> NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
> www.geocities.com/nbeaa
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
> www.geocities.com/chursch/bizcard.bmp
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No. We are not arguing. The advisory was to avoid the two problems of
corrosion and watering.
I just got a 36 Volt shop cart with T105s in it. Troubleshooting it
identified lots of corroded connections. Every time I touch it, I have to go
wash my hands and wipe down my tools. I have not handled flooded batteries
for over a year since I have been using AGMs and Gel cells instead. It was a
shock to go back to flooded batteries and I thought it was appropriate to
pass on the experience.
I am sorry.
I apparently restarted a debate that is inappropriate for this forum.
Please accept my apology.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 3:28 PM
Subject: Re: DC controler questions.
> On 22 Jun 2003 at 21:02, Joe Smalley wrote:
>
> > You would be well advised to design
> > the car for sealed batteries from the beginning and not have to deal
with the
> > corrosion and watering that are inevitable during the lifetime of a set
of
> > batteries.
>
> Aw, Joe. We're not going to open THIS argument again, are we?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So what�s so new about Power Factor Corrected EV Battery Chargers?
Russco
has been making �em for six years now. They are part of every Electro
Automotive Kit and sold by EV Parts Inc.. Some think a Russco Charger
is
similar to other chargers.. NOT! While the Russco and other chargers
may look
similar and even cost the same to the dollar, the buck stops there.
Some chargers use a triac between the AC input and DC output to phase
control more or less of the AC input sinewave to the rectified DC
output. This
results in a very narrow input on-time with a resulting very high peak
AC current.
Peak currents of 65 amps are common for a 15 amp DC current to the
batteries.
This method of control is just like a light dimmer, hence the term
�Light Dimmer
Charger.� The result is a very poor power factor, in the area of 0.6
and the high
peak current causes excessive line cord heating.
The Russco line of battery chargers, introduced in 1997, does not use
phase
control regulation between the AC input and DC output. Active and
passive
boost power factor correction produces a PF of 0.90-0.95 at bulk
charging rates,
as measured with a Fluke Model 39 Power Meter. No light dimmer here.
And talk about smart. Unlike some chargers that keep cookin� the
batteries
until unplugged, the Russco is available with an automatic shutoff
feature that
shuts off the charger when the current comes down and the voltage
stabilizes.
And for the Optima batteries, Russco chargers are available with three
stage
charging with timed third stage constant current, to meet Optima
specifications.
A regulator disconnect is available to disconnect battery shunt
regulators during
third stage constant current charging. And, a battery temperature
probe is
available to lower charger output if battery temperature rises too high.
In July, 2003, Russco is pleased to announce the new third version of
its Power
Factor Corrected Safety Chargers, Models SC 18 and SC 24, rated at 1800
and
2400 watts respectively . The new model called �Shorty,� is only
eight inches
long, weighs just thirteen pounds, and has all the features that have
made
Russco EV Chargers so popular. Same price, too.
Russ Kaufmann, Owner, dba
Russco Electro Mechanical Engineering Since 1976
Manufacturers of EV Battery Chargers
Past Manufacturers of EV Controllers and Hydronic Heaters
EAA Santa Clara Rally 127 miles on one charge
EAA Fellow Award 1993
1800 watt grid tied photovoltaic system on site
(707)542-4151 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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<<BTW. I am considering non brush commuted motors; Sep-ext, BLDC,
slip-ring, induction and the like. I can't see any reason to not have a
transmission or to have a clutch. In a 3 phase environment, getting
"fused on" won't allow runaway. The Rest of the idea : A close ratio
sequential gearbox with integral electric motor and no 90degree turns
located at the previous rear-end location in a truck. With spray oiling
and straight cut gears, the efficiecy of the overall drivetrain would be
high.
On the DC side, what if I got 2 controllers and 2 pot boxes and 2 sets
of brushes. 1 pot box is on the optimized power brushes and chops
voltage down to control motor;it's on the go pedal. The other pot box
and controller is on second set of brushes and varies the regen torque
by raising the effective voltage back to the pack; it is on the brake
pedal. some kind of killer DPDT relay tied to brake light hehe>>
Don't you think you're overthinking this a bit much? Here's the basic
question you need to ask: how much am I willing to spend?
No brushes wanted? AC drive and motor from metricmind, everything in one
box.
Brushes OK with you? SepEx motor and SEM3 controller from ZAPI approximates
a lot of the AC setup (does need external dc-to-dc and main contactor, not
much more).
Quote an amount and a bunch of listees can tell you what level of "tech" you
can get for it.
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<<While agree that the charter needs to be upheld, I wouldn't dismiss an
effort to build a hybrid as easy. You have twice as much to go wrong,
and a charge sustaining strategy can be a real pain. Especially if the
user gets to decide if/ when they want to plug in. And drivetrain
integration on a parallel HEV is a challenge, be it mechanical, controls
or both.>>
Anyone wanting to make a grid-chargeable HEV might get a lot of useable,
on-the-road data from the folks at U.C.Davis who made both a sedan *and* a
Suburban of this same design, and it would probably be free or maybe a few
$K donation to the school's transportation studies department. I forgot the
professor's name (I'm sure others on the list know him), but I do remember
meeting him at a CARB meeting several years ago, and he was quite open about
design and implimentation.
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<<When I worked at Nova Cruz, the kick scooters would get from 10-25Wh/
mile form the pack, so 15-40Wh/mile from the wall? But they were BLDC,
human leg power hybrid with regen. The Voloci (e-cycle) prototype was
more like 50-75Wh/ mile from the pack so maybe over 100wh/ mile from the
wall. So 180ish is really good, as I never broke 35mph on the Voloci. It
was ~100lbs plus a 200 lb rider, no pedals, just footpegs. With regen,
maybe it got better. I was long gone by then.>>
Hah! I have an eX3 that blew its controller...twice, and probably its Hall
sensors from the second event! I took out the rotor and now it gets used as
a kick scooter by my son, since the solid aluminum design is better suited
to heavy use than the wood-decked Cruz I previously bought for my 170#
teenager.
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This whole CalCars discussion came up 3 months ago in digests #2661 & 2665:
> We hope to raise funds initially from up approximately 1000 Charter
Sponsors, at $95, sufficient to bring on 3 or 4 consultants to move this
initiative forward, including people with substantial industry expertise
and credibility. We intend to advance this effort to the point where we can
make a credible proposal (buttressed by the number of Sponsors who are
demonstrably serious buyers) to one of the car companies that might retrofit
their existing vehicles, most likely Toyota, Hyundai, Honda or Ford, see
http://www.calcars.org/vehicles.html <
and
> If you are still concerned that this is a "fly-by-night" effort, I hope
the
endorsers listed at http://www.calcars.org/kudos.html will provide some
reassurance.
We also have the counsel of one of the more established San Francisco Bay
Area law firms, Gray Cary Ware http://www.gcw.com <
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Hi Russ;
Interesting write up.
I have three questions about the technology:
1. What is the name of the "Active and passive boost power factor
correction" circuit that you use?
2. Why does a boost power factor correction circuit need a boost
transformer?
Charger description that states requirement:
http://store.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=168&product_id=1629
Transformer description also states that it is required for packs over 120
VDC:
http://store.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=&product_id=1985
3. Is the transformer necessary to operate the charger from 240 VAC?
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "russco" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 9:17 PM
Subject: So What's So New About Power Factor Corrected EV Battery Chargers
> The Russco line of battery chargers, introduced in 1997, does not use
> phase
> control regulation between the AC input and DC output. Active and
> passive
> boost power factor correction produces a PF of 0.90-0.95 at bulk
> charging rates,
> as measured with a Fluke Model 39 Power Meter. No light dimmer here.
>
> Russ Kaufmann, Owner, dba
> Russco Electro Mechanical Engineering Since 1976
> Manufacturers of EV Battery Chargers
> Past Manufacturers of EV Controllers and Hydronic Heaters
> EAA Santa Clara Rally 127 miles on one charge
> EAA Fellow Award 1993
> 1800 watt grid tied photovoltaic system on site
> (707)542-4151 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
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I both see Peter's point and appreciate Felix's promise to keep it to URLs in the
future.
Clearly, though, the effort is somewhat relevant to the list, if not the plea for
sponsorship?
As far as the cost...it seems that people are thinking of this as "just another
hybrid" (and of course summarily dismissing the money [albeit reluctantly] spent by
manufacturers like Honda and Toyota to create the safe, efficient, mass-producable
current "ordinary" hybrids), and that's not really what CalCars seems to be about. If
I understand it correctly from skimming the flier and the site, it's about a hybrid
done more correctly than production models to date, which is to say a hybrid that is
ZE for around-town trips and LE for longer trips. That's not what the Prius is, it's
not what the Civic Hybrid is...it's a different beast that seems to have its own
technical hurdles which are as yet unsolved. Maybe these hurdles could be solved
cheaply, but if they could then why isn't this how the existing hybrids work? It
would certainly provide a more valuable vehicle and thus higher sales.
And on a lighter note...why is it that the more you type the word "hybrid" the more it
looks like it's spelled wrong?
Cheers,
.Steve Coallier
"Attack life, it's going to kill you anyway!"
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter VanDerWal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 8:17 PM
To: EV
Subject: Re: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-In Hybrid Prototypes
On Mon, 2003-06-23 at 19:25, Rod Hower wrote:
> Kind of harsh Peter?
Harsh about what? The fact that it was a blatant violation of the list
charter?
Good intentions doesn't mean it's OK for them to violate the rules and
use the EVDL to troll for investors.
P.S. If I knew someone who was willing to pay $150,000 for a hybrid, I'd
build them one myself, charge them $100,000, and pocket a tidy profit.
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<<Yes; they are generally phase-controlled, like a light dimmer or
variable-speed electric drill. These are very cheap, simple circuits, and
have been used in battery chargers like the K&W, Russco, etc. The drawback
is that they are noisy (interfere with radios), and poorly utilize an AC
outlet (you can only get about half the outlet's power rating without
tripping breakers).>>
The most basic bad-boy charger of a bridge rectifier and big capacitor works
on a 120V pack, but sets off the circuit breakers - could you have chokes
(or are they filters?) that limit current input, like say, with 15A choke
with a common 120Vac outlet, and then switch to a 5A choke for final
absorption, or does the bad pfc just make this impossible?
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Yeah, regen was always the Achille's heel of that design. I could tell
you about two months of arguing and anguish over that feature alone
prior to product launch. The market wanted it, the engineers were
terrified about failures. In the beginning, regen was great because we
were testing indoors on the flat and never got above 14mph. But with no
current control on regen, IIRC, one big hill would kill the contorller
if it didn't melt down the battery pack first. That's a East coast 10%
grade hill, not a West coast 17% hill.
If you disable regen and coast you get nearly the same range. And the
controller lasts a LOT longer that way. Not to mention the battery.
So in the end, the market got regen and the engineers got justification.
Seth
The Levine Family wrote:
>
> <<When I worked at Nova Cruz, the kick scooters would get from 10-25Wh/
> mile form the pack, so 15-40Wh/mile from the wall? But they were BLDC,
> human leg power hybrid with regen. The Voloci (e-cycle) prototype was
> more like 50-75Wh/ mile from the pack so maybe over 100wh/ mile from the
> wall. So 180ish is really good, as I never broke 35mph on the Voloci. It
> was ~100lbs plus a 200 lb rider, no pedals, just footpegs. With regen,
> maybe it got better. I was long gone by then.>>
>
> Hah! I have an eX3 that blew its controller...twice, and probably its Hall
> sensors from the second event! I took out the rotor and now it gets used as
> a kick scooter by my son, since the solid aluminum design is better suited
> to heavy use than the wood-decked Cruz I previously bought for my 170#
> teenager.
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Ok,
This got me thinking,
One of the projects I have in mind,(In the FAR financial future) is to put a
slightly "smarter" charger in my Henney.
Now I know that I want a PFC-20. It does everything I want, and is
flexible. But the Wife isn't and I MAY not be able to float that.
So I am now looking at cheaper chargers. The Henney, as she sits is a 72v
(12 6v flooded golf cart batteries). I would LIKE at some time in the
future, to MAYBE add 1-2 more batteries. There is plenty of room, and
weight is the only consideration.
So my question is, is there a good charger that is more economical than the
PFC-20, that can charge both a 72v pack, and has the growth potential to
also charge a 78-84v pack?
James F. Jarrett
Information Systems Associate
Charlotte Country Day School
(704)943-4562
Every program is either trivial or it contains at least one bug.
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Is there something up with updates to the EV album?
I submitted the information for my Henney about two weeks ago and have not
heard nor seen anything? I uploaded picture and the like. I have also sent
two e-mail messages checking on the status and I have not heard back. Am I
doing something wrong?
James
James F. Jarrett
Information Systems Associate
Charlotte Country Day School
(704)943-4562
Every program is either trivial or it contains at least one bug.
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Let me know if you (or anyone else) need a hand. I'm coming up Sat to stay
with my mom in Columbia, Md and drive up to Hagerstown on Sunday. I'd like
to bring my 96' Geo Tracker EV but at 3200 lbs I'd have to rent a truck and
a trailer for bigga-bucks.
work in Roanoke 540-563-2000x290
home 540-473-1248
mom's nearby race 301-596-5037
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chip Gribben" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 2:59 PM
Subject: Power of DC this Sunday June 29
> Hello Drag Racing fans,
>
> The Power of DC Race is coming up this Sunday, June 29!
>
> The race is at Mason Dixon Dragway in Hagerstown, Maryland starting at
1pm.
>
> Don't miss this exciting event.
>
> So far we're expecting
>
> * Shawn Lawless with his 240 volt Orange Juice dragster
>
> * NetGain's Bad Amplitude 336 volt dragster
>
> * Bob Salem's 240 volt ELECTRK
>
> * Darin Gilbert's 48 volt Pirahna
>
> * The "Sweetheart" 240-Z from Central Shenandoah Valley Regional High
School
>
> * Northeastern High School's 156 volt VW Golf
>
> * Shawn's other entry, a 48-volt motorcycle with a side car
>
> * Bryan Murtha's 312 volt Ford Ranger
>
> * Charlie Garlow's 312 volt GM S-10
>
> * SkooterCommuter's 48 volt MoRad 1500
>
> * My 156 volt Ford Escort
>
> * and maybe some surprise entries
>
> WANTED
>
> We are in need of a tow for Chris Zach's Car. Although Tim Humphries
really
> wants to join us and help out he may have other commitments so if anyone
is
> interested please let us know. It would be really cool to have Chris' AC
> Prizm there to take on one of the AC trucks.
>
> SPONSORS
>
> Sponsoring our event is
>
> *EV Parts
> *KTA Services
> *Manzanita Micro
> *Megawatt Motorworks
> *EVA/DC
>
> CONTRIBUTORS
>
> We'd also like to thank the following contributers
>
> *Metric Mind Engineering
> *Battery Warehouse
> *Vanner Technologies
> *Flexcar
> *Bad Fish Racing
>
> *Wallace Rumbarger for media
> *Greg Crabtree for video
> *Gary Sumner for printing our programs
> *Greg Porkorny for starting this gig from the beginning
>
> We would also like to thank those on the EVDL who are helping and who plan
> to attend this event.
>
> AND MORE . . .
>
> *We will be raffling off an authentic Auranthetic 24 volt mini bike. We
> restored it just for this event and it is a blast to ride.
>
> *SkooterCommuter.com will be providing scooters to tool around in the
pits.
>
> *Capital Rental in Beltsville, MD has given us a great deal on a rental
for
> a huge 70 kW tandem axle generator which they will deliver to the race for
> us so we are appreciative of their efforts. Sponsored in part by Manzanita
> Micro.
>
> *Megawatt Motorworks has provided prizes in the form of some great new
> books, courtesy of Dave Stensland.
>
> *Darin Gilbert's Bad Fish Racing is providing T-shirts as door prizes.
>
> *We will have full color 2003 Power of DC T-shirts for sale and our Power
of
> DC Racing Programs
>
> *Our traditional after race dinner at Ledo's in Hagerstown.
>
> PRIZES
>
> This year we will have cash prizes and trophies for Motorcycles, cars 96
> volts and below and cars 97 volts and above. Awards for NEDRA Record
> breakers. We will also have a lot of different door prizes.
>
> Visit our website for more information
>
> http://www.powerofdc.com
>
>
> Chip Gribben
> NEDRA Power of DC Racing Coordinator
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 301-490-0657
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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You have me beat, I'm 252 in the summer, 290 in the winter (running the battery
heaters). Watt hours from the pack have been great this month, with 4 out of 16 40
mile trip under 200 WH/mi (average 218 for the month)
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 3:23 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Watthours/Mile (Was: Imperialistic measurements)
Tom & Mark & others,
In my 156v Sparrow, I've been averaging 184 watt-hours per mile from the
wall - 7,000 miles, since Jan 1.
-Ed Thorpe
finishing upgrade to new 168v pack; DCP Raptor controller
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Villemaire [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 11:03 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: Mark Villemaire
Subject: Re: Watthours/Mile (Was: Imperialistic measurements)
Hi All:
According to my records, my out-of-the-wall efficiency for my 92 Solectria
is 259 watt-hours per mile for the first 19157 miles.
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Hudson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 1:35 PM
Subject: Watthours/Mile (Was: Imperialistic measurements)
> > Most people report watt-hours per mile, I guess just because most
> > on this list are Americans and they still use miles. Not so
> > bad for me, because my D is so old its odometer reports miles.
> > I've seen some reports of watt-hours per km. Unless you are a
> > stickler for efficiency measurements, the watt-hours are what the
> > emeter reports, rather than what you would measure at the wall
> > outlet when charging.
>
> Hmm...
>
> According to my records, my out-of-the-wall efficiency is 320 watt-hours
per
> mile. Anybody else know what their number is for comparison?
>
> -Tom
>
> Thomas Hudson
> http://portdistrict5.org -- 5th District Aldermanic Website
> http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More
> http://portgardenclub.org -- Port Washington Garden Club
> http://portlightstation.org -- Light Station Restoration
>
>
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