EV Digest 2874
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: OT Re: Imperialistic measurements
by "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-In Hybrid Prototypes
by Felix Kramer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-In Hybrid Prototypes
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-In Hybrid Prototypes
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Power of DC this Sunday June 29
by Seth Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Watthours/Mile (Was: Imperialistic measurements)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Re: OT Re: Imperialistic measurements
by =?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Rice?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: OT Re: Imperialistic measurements
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9) Re: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-In Hybrid Prototypes
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: DC controler questions.
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: EVLN(Bus Rapid Transit says electric rail is dirty)
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: DC controler questions.
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: EVLN(Bus Rapid Transit says electric rail is dirty)
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: AC-to-DC motor controllers as chargers
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Charging at campgrounds
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: OT Re: Imperialistic measurements
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Funny Ebay listing for EV
by "Eric Penne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: DC controler questions.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Regen: was: DC controler questions.
by Michael Hoskinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: DC controler questions.
by Michael Hoskinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: AC-to-DC motor controllers as chargers
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Regen: was: DC controler questions.
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-In Hybrid Prototypes
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Watthours/Mile (Was: Imperialistic measurements)
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
The US Federal government in about 1973 started to change road
signs to indicate distances in kilometers. They dropped the idea
when many people complained.
Here in the US, most of us involved in EVs calculate performance
in Wh per mile or sometimes miles per kWh. Most EVs use between
150 and 500 Whr per mile.
When I was in Hawaii about 20 years ago, fuel was being measured
and sold by the liter. I don't know if the practice continued or not
or if fuel was measured and sold by the liter anywhere else in USA.
I was puzzled by your number 4.546 until I figured out that that is
the number of liters per Imperial gallon. The US gallon is smaller,
3.785 liters.
Tom Shay
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 7:59 AM
Subject: Re: OT Re: Imperialistic measurements
> Most of Europe measures its road sign distances in
> kilometres, which is sensible and easy to work with.
>
> The UK still measures in miles, which is antiquated
> and irritating.
>
> All of Europe (I'm sure someone can pick out an
> exception), including the UK, sells fuel in litres,
> which again is sensible (at least as sensible as
> selling fossil fuel can be).
>
> I've grown up working in miles per gallon and spend
> most of my journeys dividing the number of miles I
> completed on the last tank filled to the brim by the
> result of dividing the amount of fuel I've just bought
> by 4.546 (I normally guestmate the last .046!)... All
> so I can work out how much more I'd rather be driving
> an electric car :^)
>
>
> which leads me on to a serious note:
>
> How does everyone here measure their performance?
>
> km per charge?
> metres per kWh?
> miles per charge?
> mm per Joule? ;^D
>
> or my personal favourite:
>
> light years per googol Joule
>
> And what sort of performance is everyone here getting?
>
> James
>
> __________________________________________________
> Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience
> http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/yplus/yoffer.html
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In response to a few comments on the list: I'm sorry we offended Peter Van
DerWal by posting; I've heard from a few list members that they're happy to
know someone is trying a new way to bring vehicles that will be "mostly
EVs" to the marketplace.
And Rich Rudman, we're a sincere group of people, not seeking any benefit
for ourselves. Of course, already-designed EVs could be built much more
cheaply. We're talking about designing, building and testing a sequence of
conversions of an existing vehicle in such a way that we demonstrate the
practicality and benefits of plug-in hybrids to car buyers and then
convince car makers that there's a viable mass-market vehicle and money to
be made producing them.
Our cost estimates of $1-$2 million for a dozen one-off prototypes come
from respected people who have built vehicles and have agreed to be CalCars
advisors and endorsers (you'll probably recognize many of their names):
http://www.calcars.org/about.html
http://www.calcars.org/kudos.html
Regards, Felix Kramer
Regards, Felix Kramer
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
Felix Kramer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Founder, California Cars Initiative
http://www.calcars.org
PO Box 61222 Palo Alto, CA
cell 650.520.5555 voice 650.599.9992
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Building a dozen prototypes will cost between $1-$2 million, or about
$150,000 for each "one-off" vehicle. We're looking for a dozen SEAs
who can spend this much (some of it will be tax-deductible.) Mass
produced, the cost will drop to just a few thousand dollars more than
conventional hybrids, much of which will be offset by savings on fuel
and repairs -- and less time spent at the pump.
I could build a Hybrid sportscar for less than this. Much less using
available kits. Saving my money for a Li Ion full ev. Lawrence Rhodes.....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Right on Rich. Lawrence Rhodes....
> I sell Power factor corrected Chargers for Evs. Want one???
> I have 2 street machine EVs. One that has world records in the NEDRA
> races.
>
> I could build a fleet of Evs for 1 to 2 Mill, not a Dozzen. 150K is
> rediculas for a Ev of any type.
>
> This sounds like a internet Scam. Or else you folks have not realized
> that the fat days of the late 90s are long past.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
> www.manzanitamicro.com
> 1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All!
Chip, sounds like a first-rate EVent! I am very sorry to say I won't
be able to make it, it i just too far to drive (10 hours +). Will
someone please take lots of pictures in the pits and on the track? If
someone has time it would be wonderful to hear an account of the day.
I am especially interested in some details and close up photos of the
240Z since I am converting one now... Cheers,
Seth
On Monday, June 23, 2003, at 02:59 PM, Chip Gribben wrote:
Hello Drag Racing fans,
The Power of DC Race is coming up this Sunday, June 29!
The race is at Mason Dixon Dragway in Hagerstown, Maryland starting at
1pm.
Don't miss this exciting event.
So far we're expecting
* Shawn Lawless with his 240 volt Orange Juice dragster
* NetGain's Bad Amplitude 336 volt dragster
* Bob Salem's 240 volt ELECTRK
* Darin Gilbert's 48 volt Pirahna
* The "Sweetheart" 240-Z from Central Shenandoah Valley Regional High
School
* Northeastern High School's 156 volt VW Golf
* Shawn's other entry, a 48-volt motorcycle with a side car
* Bryan Murtha's 312 volt Ford Ranger
* Charlie Garlow's 312 volt GM S-10
* SkooterCommuter's 48 volt MoRad 1500
* My 156 volt Ford Escort
* and maybe some surprise entries
WANTED
We are in need of a tow for Chris Zach's Car. Although Tim Humphries
really
wants to join us and help out he may have other commitments so if
anyone is
interested please let us know. It would be really cool to have Chris'
AC
Prizm there to take on one of the AC trucks.
SPONSORS
Sponsoring our event is
*EV Parts
*KTA Services
*Manzanita Micro
*Megawatt Motorworks
*EVA/DC
CONTRIBUTORS
We'd also like to thank the following contributers
*Metric Mind Engineering
*Battery Warehouse
*Vanner Technologies
*Flexcar
*Bad Fish Racing
*Wallace Rumbarger for media
*Greg Crabtree for video
*Gary Sumner for printing our programs
*Greg Porkorny for starting this gig from the beginning
We would also like to thank those on the EVDL who are helping and who
plan
to attend this event.
AND MORE . . .
*We will be raffling off an authentic Auranthetic 24 volt mini bike. We
restored it just for this event and it is a blast to ride.
*SkooterCommuter.com will be providing scooters to tool around in the
pits.
*Capital Rental in Beltsville, MD has given us a great deal on a
rental for
a huge 70 kW tandem axle generator which they will deliver to the race
for
us so we are appreciative of their efforts. Sponsored in part by
Manzanita
Micro.
*Megawatt Motorworks has provided prizes in the form of some great new
books, courtesy of Dave Stensland.
*Darin Gilbert's Bad Fish Racing is providing T-shirts as door prizes.
*We will have full color 2003 Power of DC T-shirts for sale and our
Power of
DC Racing Programs
*Our traditional after race dinner at Ledo's in Hagerstown.
PRIZES
This year we will have cash prizes and trophies for Motorcycles, cars
96
volts and below and cars 97 volts and above. Awards for NEDRA Record
breakers. We will also have a lot of different door prizes.
Visit our website for more information
http://www.powerofdc.com
Chip Gribben
NEDRA Power of DC Racing Coordinator
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
301-490-0657
--
QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION
http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tom & Mark & others,
In my 156v Sparrow, I've been averaging 184 watt-hours per mile from the
wall - 7,000 miles, since Jan 1.
-Ed Thorpe
finishing upgrade to new 168v pack; DCP Raptor controller
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Villemaire [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 11:03 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: Mark Villemaire
Subject: Re: Watthours/Mile (Was: Imperialistic measurements)
Hi All:
According to my records, my out-of-the-wall efficiency for my 92 Solectria
is 259 watt-hours per mile for the first 19157 miles.
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Hudson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 1:35 PM
Subject: Watthours/Mile (Was: Imperialistic measurements)
> > Most people report watt-hours per mile, I guess just because most
> > on this list are Americans and they still use miles. Not so
> > bad for me, because my D is so old its odometer reports miles.
> > I've seen some reports of watt-hours per km. Unless you are a
> > stickler for efficiency measurements, the watt-hours are what the
> > emeter reports, rather than what you would measure at the wall
> > outlet when charging.
>
> Hmm...
>
> According to my records, my out-of-the-wall efficiency is 320 watt-hours
per
> mile. Anybody else know what their number is for comparison?
>
> -Tom
>
> Thomas Hudson
> http://portdistrict5.org -- 5th District Aldermanic Website
> http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More
> http://portgardenclub.org -- Port Washington Garden Club
> http://portlightstation.org -- Light Station Restoration
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yeah - I know - this all started when Brett mentioned the 50 mpg quoted fuel
economy for a Lotus Elise - I mentioned the conversion factor then myself - as
it knocks down to 41.6 mpg (US gallons) - funny how these conversations
develop!
Jorg posted a link to the Lotus web-site (interestingly it's the US Lotus
web-site - but it's got the UK specifications :^S)...
http://www.lotuscars.com/ukelise_specs.html
Pity people resist change so much, SI units make so much more sense! Who would
actually choose a combination of base 12, 14 and 16 when we count in base 10
but wait - it gets better - here in the UK - there are markers at the side of
large dual-carriageways and motorways. They are spaced at 100 metres apart...
Wonderful!
Ho hum - guess you can't stop stupidity :^D
Lucky I enjoy maths - or this would drive me nuts!
James
There are only 10 types of people. Those who understand binary and those who
don't...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: OT Re: Imperialistic measurements
The US Federal government in about 1973 started to change road
signs to indicate distances in kilometers. They dropped the idea
when many people complained.
Here in the US, most of us involved in EVs calculate performance
in Wh per mile or sometimes miles per kWh. Most EVs use between
150 and 500 Whr per mile.
When I was in Hawaii about 20 years ago, fuel was being measured
and sold by the liter. I don't know if the practice continued or not
or if fuel was measured and sold by the liter anywhere else in USA.
I was puzzled by your number 4.546 until I figured out that that is
the number of liters per Imperial gallon. The US gallon is smaller,
3.785 liters.
Tom Shay
__________________________________________________
Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience
http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/yplus/yoffer.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<AEVLA hat*>
There may be those on the list who are interested in this proposal.
However, I agree that the post was inappropriate for this list, because it
was too promotional. (And too long.)
When publicizing such an enterprise, it's perfectly OK to provide a brief
descriptive paragraph (omitting qualitative statements), and invite
interested persons to visit a web page for more information. But this one
was too long and too promotional.
Please, in the future, just post a muted synopsis and a link. Thanks.
</AEVLA hat*>
*Assistant EV list administrator hat
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 22 Jun 2003 at 21:02, Joe Smalley wrote:
> You would be well advised to design
> the car for sealed batteries from the beginning and not have to deal with the
> corrosion and watering that are inevitable during the lifetime of a set of
> batteries.
Aw, Joe. We're not going to open THIS argument again, are we?
What you say is true. VRR batteries are neater and more convenient. But
you pay dearly for that!
If you want an EV that comes close to the operation cost of a gasser, and
with care can even be cheaper to run, the only choice is flooded golf car
batteries. With current proven technology, it's almost impossible to build
an EV using VRR batteries that doesn't cost several times as much per mile
(or km) to operate as a gasser. (I deliberately omitted mention of the
bleeding edge batteries that some on the list are testing, because there are
so many unknowns right now.)
OTOH, if you have to have neck-snapping acceleration, AGM VRR batteries are
the way to go.
So what are you building -- a daily driver, or a sports car? That determines
what type of battery you choose. Let's give newbies the facts and let them
decide for themselves. With all due respect, IMO phrases like "you would be
well advised" are, uh, not all that well advised.
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switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> > think an
> > > electric car should be your primary car except for trips
out of
> > town.
> >
> > This last sentence is exactly how I like to view it. I don't
> > view the EV as a "second" vehicle; it is the primary vehicle.
> > For that longer trip every couple of weeks, month or two, get
the
> > gasser warmed up and enjoy the scenery. If the EV charging
> > infrastructure ever builds out (not likely), then our EVs
could
> > take on more and more of the gasser's job.
> >
> And it's not long before your eyeing your "second" vehicle the
gas Bruner
> and thinking " I don't use this much anymore and it would be
nice as an
> electric. " The third is a little hard to justify "It's for
sale " works for
> me .
> Steve Clunn
Yeah, except I don't think there are any electrical outlets where
the gas burner frequently goes, like the Sierras, Death Valley
(thinking of going there this July 4th to experience some real
heat!), or wherever else... However, I think EV1s have been to
Death Valley, haven't they?
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
www.geocities.com/chursch/bizcard.bmp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I drove Bob Wing's ol' MG electric when it had a Zapi H2(3?) with
all the regen contactor setup and a Prestolite series-wound
motor. I think he had it up to 120V pack by the time I got to
drive it in this configuration. Needless to say, coming down the
grade from the Inverness Ridge out at Pt. Reyes, I was not
impressed with the regen: barely noticeable (kept the car from
speeding away down the grade to some extent) and a rather weird
ticking sound. Eventually Bob gave up on the regen scene after
innumerable hassles and an aging back that slowed down his work
on the car. (By the way, Bob's car(s) is featured at
www.geocities.com/nbeaa if anybody wants to take a look.) I did
drive Greg McCrea's Zapi SEM setup in a little Fiat or whatever
it was, and that was nice, real nice regen, all the way down to
0mph just by letting up on the gas. I got really hot on that
idea for awhile, but now I think AC is the way to go for regen,
since it's just a natural part of the AC scene - no extra
controller parts, where you have to have one to excite the field
windings in the SEM motor. Here in hilly Marin where 500-2000 ft
ridges are commonplace and they just run the roads right over
them, regen would be real nice to ease the brakes' life and get
some of that energy back.
----- Original Message -----
From: "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 10:50 AM
Subject: Re: DC controler questions.
> I had regen on my work truck and loved it till it brunned out
(twice) , I
> don't really miss it now and wouldn't spend the money for
somthing that
> makes a few pennys of electricy and cost so much . It will be
your weak link
> and let you down sometime . If you want it that bad go with
victor's AC
> setup , I've not heard to many with series DC haveing it work
well of long.
> With your setup of used and expencive batteries I would be
working on a
> simple BMS , so you can find and keep charged the weakest one
in the pack .
> Put your time in where it will do the most good.
> The regin on my old zapi would put out about 20 amps/120v and
keep putting
> out to about 5mph which is a lot better then anything your
talking about and
> still was not worth the trouble . I'm sure you can do it but is
it worth
> your time?
> Steve Clunn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2003 5:25 PM
> Subject: Re: DC controler questions.
>
>
> > Hi, I was wondering a bit about this too, and I decided that
the answer
> was
> > a separate small pmdc motor, for me at 72 volts, I plan to
add a 90 volt
> > motor to my system somewhere, if controlled by a pulley like
the aircond
> > electric clutch this would produce little drag when driving
and when
> engaged
> > as gen, any heat would be applied to a motor that is not the
drive motor,
> > thus reducing the risk of damage.
> >
> > I figure that for the sake of a few pounds each, if one
wasn't enough,
> > others could be added and staged from multiple switches at
the top of the
> > brake pedal travel, just like your brake lights are.
> >
> > This also allows for the removal of the vacuum pump because
the regen
> > braking will take over the effort supplied by vacuum and only
require the
> > remaining brake force to fully stop or hold the car still
once stopped.
> >
> > It seems like a practical solution to me, what do others
think ?
> >
> > Garry Stanley
> >
> > Cable.net.nz
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Lee Hart wrote:
> >> Apartment managers are human beings. If you approach them
> >> right, they will let you charge. Usually, this just means
making
> >> sure it won't cost them money.
>
> Chuck Hursch wrote [snip]:
> > ...I tried to do it right by writing the formal proposal and
> > not just dumping a cord over the rail of my deck. She (the
apt
> > manager) did take the initiative to make it happen, and they
> > have not hassled me about it since, so that counts for
something.
>
> > A lot of work, though, in a society that professes a great
want
> > for clean air. Seems to me there is a big disconnect between
the
> > CA/CARB policies and mandates, and what ends up happening
down at
> > the "street".
>
Lee Hart wrote:
> I see what you mean. It sounds like a rough situation. I'm glad
you
> stuck with it, and it had a happy ending.
>
> In my case, I've lived in 3 different apartments where I
charged my EVs.
> I made sure I was a "good" tenant in the eyes of the landlord.
(In one
> case, that just meant he hated me the least (they aren't called
> landLORDs for nothing :-)
>
> I did small repairs around the apartments myself; shoveled
snow,
> replaced outside light bulbs, etc. Things that other tenants
would bug
> the landlord about. As a result, he cut me more slack than he
gave some
> of the others.
>
> I happened to be paying for my own electricity in all these
cases, so
> there was no cost to the landlord for charging my EV. In
situations
> where this isn't the case, one might be able to call the power
company
> and have your own metered outlet installed. The cost for
charging your
> EV probably won't even reach the minimum monthly charge. You
might even
> offer to add security lighting to that same circuit, so other
tenants
> and the landlord also get some benefit from your charging
circuit.
Yes, that was the other condition as I recall - I had to pay for
the electricity for charging the vehicle (no problem with me).
So it all meant it had to come off my apt circuits.
I have tried helping in various situations. At one point a year
or two ago, I ended up with more fluorescent lightbulbs than I
was going to need for quite awhile. It's amazed me how much
electricity they must be using running all the 75W incandescent
bulbs in these globe shades in the carports and around the
outside parking lots. There's probably a few hundred. It's
enough so that if I'm charging/floating the Rabbit on the variac,
the DC voltage on the pack for a given variac dial setting is a
good volt or lower at night. People running their TVs, computers
and interior lights also probably add in. When I offered to
experiment, the manager was quite interested in the idea of the
fluorescents to cut down their electricity cost, and she let me
replace the lights in the immediate area in the carport and at my
door. Unfortunately, what it says on the box really applies -
don't run 'em in enclosed covers, so the fluorescents didn't last
long, darkening and burning around the bases of the filaments
(the more expensive fluorescents seemed to do better in this
regard than the Costco $3 cheapo units, which seem to burn around
base of the filaments anyways). So they'll get to either stick
with incandescents in their current globes, replace the globes
(not likely to happen), or wait for LED lighting. But the
fluorescents would've saved on the electricity, and amazingly
enough, were significantly brighter and had better light than the
standard equivalent incandescent. Oh well...
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
www.geocities.com/chursch/bizcard.bmp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> The Levine Family wrote:
> >
> > In searching for motor controllers, I have noted a lot of
controllers that
> > allow varying the speed of a DC motor run off of the AC line,
such as for
> > lathes and such. Can one of these be used as a battery
charger, sort of like
> > a variable power supply, or is there something that prevents
this use?
>
Lee Hart wrote:
> Yes; they are generally phase-controlled, like a light dimmer
or
> variable-speed electric drill. These are very cheap, simple
circuits,
> and have been used in battery chargers like the K&W, Russco,
etc. The
> drawback is that they are noisy (interfere with radios), and
poorly
> utilize an AC outlet (you can only get about half the outlet's
power
> rating without tripping breakers).
I guess I'm still having troubles with lumping the RUSSCO in with
the K&W (the BC-20). The RUSSCO beta unit I tested would run the
cord-ends significantly cooler while putting in more amps to the
pack. The RUSSCO could also run flat-out at 12.3A DC into my
pack, and still allow me to do the dastardly deed of running the
microwave (takes about 9-10A AC) up in the kitchen (same 20A
circuit) for several minutes. The K&W would put about 10A into
the pack under the same conditions before tripping the circuit
breaker up in the apt. When I talked with Russ Kaufmann years
back about his charger, he said that there was some big reactive?
device as the core of the charger. The K&W was just a glorified
light dimmer (triac) with maybe a filter or two. I don't think
the RUSSCO had a triac. May I be illuminated (no pun intended)?
I don't know how far a Rudman PFC would crank up with the
microwave going, but I don't play that game much anymore (those
were my "teenage" years with the EV - "gotta see what things will
do...").
The AM radio test at about 20 feet from the charger (up in my
bedroom, different 120V circuit):
K&W BC-20: lots 'o charger static
Zivan K2 (current charger in the car): not much charger
static if any
RUSSCO: don't recall trying the test
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
www.geocities.com/chursch/bizcard.bmp
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Brad Waddell wrote:
> At 09:31 PM 06/21/2003 -0500, you wrote:
> >You missed the part where you don't stay at the campgrounds
for camping
> >with an RV or anything. You just use the campground as a
charging station
> >since you know they have higher power electrical outlets
available right
> >next to where you park the car. Campgrounds are abundant near
highways
> >and are easy to find.
>
> OK, that makes sense - but then where do you sleep? You charge
for hours,
> presumably at night, and you have no car to take you to a
motel. A tent and
> sleeping bag? Or do we love our EV's so much we will sleep in
them? By the
> light of the charge controller... :)
Or the hum of the fan...zzzz. I slept on a tarp and pad next to
my EV at a KOA Kampground in Willits, while my friend slept in
his VW bus that was towing the EV (we were towing the vehicle up
from the Bay Area to one of the SEER events in Ukiah). Needless
to say, I did not get a good night's sleep back that night in
June 1996!
I could see doing the campground charging thing with an EV if I
had a tent and had a near-perfect assurance of having a live
outlet to charge from. KOA seems to be ok with using an outlet
to charge from if you rent an RV space. We never told the
Willits management, and nobody ever asked, or cared as far as I
could tell. The outlet is there - use it. Nighttime ok; I might
be concerned with daytime RV-space rental and having a hassle
about charging. But hey, you paid for your space...
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
www.geocities.com/chursch/bizcard.bmp
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James Rice wrote:
> which leads me on to a serious note:
>
> How does everyone here measure their performance?
>
> km per charge?
> metres per kWh?
> miles per charge?
> mm per Joule? ;^D
>
> or my personal favourite:
>
> light years per googol Joule
The efficiency is the primary thing I'm concerned with - most
everything else falls into place after that. I measure the
efficiency as miles/kwh, upstream of the charger (ie. measuring
at the AC outlet, or the cord that comes therefrom).
>
> And what sort of performance is everyone here getting?
My efficiency bounces all over the place, depending on how long
the car ends up charging overnight holding the batteries at their
finish voltage (am pondering a timer) and how old the batteries
are and how well they are balanced, and how long the trip is. So
I'll usually end up at a little better than 2 mi/kwh going
through a Zivan K2 charger. Defensive mode on :-) : this is
very hilly country, and for instance, coming up the hill to my
apt, I'm chewing through watt-hours in a hurry at 25-30kW. I've
measured miles/kwh without my hill, ie. charging somewhere else,
and got about 3.4mi/kwh charging at 6A off of a Honda 1kW gas
genset and a variac/rectifier, 4 mile trip over one big hill, and
I got this number when I smelled the batteries gassing strongly.
My best home-to-home roundtrip efficiency was on my best range
test to date (72 miles - I had to charge at work for about an
hour so I could get back up the hill to the apt) - 3.45 mi/kwh
including the work kwhs (there were about 4 more miles to crawl
back to work and then drive back home). That was when the
batteries were pretty well charged up; to get the 100% finish
charge into them and the current down to a reasonable level
brought the number down to something like 3.05 mi/kwh. These
numbers were with a K&W BC-20 charger running at about 10A DC
into a 96V pack of 6V floodeds (US2300) in a Rabbit.. I have to
guess at numbers to compare with what most people seem to use,
which is watt-hours/mile from an E-meter, so that's downstream of
the battery pack.
I erased it on the reply, but you mentioned that UK measures
speed as miles / hour. I was in the UK last in 1999, and have
the distinct recollection of it being kilometers/hour. London
area, out to Heathrow, and the like. OK, looking back at your
message, you said distance as miles. Hmm...
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
www.geocities.com/chursch/bizcard.bmp
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--- Begin Message ---
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3032026406
This is funny! Whodunit? It is a spoof off of the Ultima car it sounds
like. Sarcastic too! :)
Quote:
"100-1000 miles ... depending on your preferences"
"the price will be steep"
"Just send an e-mail. Do not buy unless you just want to pay $2351.69
(includes Shipping and Handling) for general information on the ev. Since
they are custom made, I would just send us an e-mail and save your money
for the EV itself.. But that is up to you. "
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael Hoskinson wrote:
> Since you mentioned it... Can you explain what interpoles are?
Interpoles are little poles in between the big main poles. They do a
better job of shaping the magnetic fields, so the motor's brushes arc
less. The higher the voltage, the more you need them. They also improve
operation when you have to run the motor both forward and reverse, or
want to use it as both a motor and a generator.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
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Regen on my Zapi sem3 sepex is certainly noticeable, especially
in 2nd and 3rd gears. It has 3 programmable regen
configurations: throttle off, brake pedal and reverse. I haven't
got the brake pedal regen set up just right but I tell you, when
I flip the toggle switch into reverse it's like the hand of God
saying "No further". I'll have a more complete report when I
have a little more data. My efforts just now are concentrated on
getting her ready for the insurance safety check. Boring things
like lights and emergency brakes; maybe the horn should go back
in too.
IIRC, Victor's ACRX has variable regen that he applies with a
hand operated switch. There was a discussion on the list some
time ago about the merits and risks of regen considering that it
only affects the drive wheels. I'm going to either set up a
separate hand switch for brake pedal regen or keep the programmer
handy to turn it off or down when the roads are icy.
Mike Hoskinson
Chuck Hursch wrote:
I drove Bob Wing's ol' MG electric when it had a Zapi H2(3?) with
all the regen contactor setup and a Prestolite series-wound
motor. I think he had it up to 120V pack by the time I got to
drive it in this configuration. Needless to say, coming down the
grade from the Inverness Ridge out at Pt. Reyes, I was not
impressed with the regen: barely noticeable (kept the car from
speeding away down the grade to some extent) and a rather weird
ticking sound. Eventually Bob gave up on the regen scene after
innumerable hassles and an aging back that slowed down his work
on the car. (By the way, Bob's car(s) is featured at
www.geocities.com/nbeaa if anybody wants to take a look.) I did
drive Greg McCrea's Zapi SEM setup in a little Fiat or whatever
it was, and that was nice, real nice regen, all the way down to
0mph just by letting up on the gas. I got really hot on that
idea for awhile, but now I think AC is the way to go for regen,
since it's just a natural part of the AC scene - no extra
controller parts, where you have to have one to excite the field
windings in the SEM motor. Here in hilly Marin where 500-2000 ft
ridges are commonplace and they just run the roads right over
them, regen would be real nice to ease the brakes' life and get
some of that energy back.
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Are they separate windings? I'm having a hard time picturing
this... Are you talking about the field coils or the armature?
Please forgive my ignorance.
Mike Hoskinson
Lee Hart wrote:
Michael Hoskinson wrote:
Since you mentioned it... Can you explain what interpoles are?
Interpoles are little poles in between the big main poles. They do a
better job of shaping the magnetic fields, so the motor's brushes arc
less. The higher the voltage, the more you need them. They also improve
operation when you have to run the motor both forward and reverse, or
want to use it as both a motor and a generator.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chuck Hursch wrote:
> I guess I'm still having troubles with lumping the RUSSCO in with
> the K&W (the BC-20)... When I talked with Russ Kaufmann years
> back about his charger, he said that there was some big reactive?
> device as the core of the charger. The K&W was just a glorified
> light dimmer (triac) with maybe a filter or two. I don't think
> the RUSSCO had a triac. May I be illuminated (no pun intended)?
The K&W BC-20 and Russco are both phase-controlled chargers. The K&W is
basically just a big light dimmer. The Russco is a big light dimmer,
too, but does have extra filter components to greatly reduce the
problems.
Many other chargers are also phase-controlled. A lot of Lester and other
commercial vehicle chargers use phase control, but they add an isolation
transformer and even more filtering to get the power factor up and RFI
down.
It's not that phase-controlled chargers are bad -- it's just that it's
easy to make them cheap; and being cheap makes them bad.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael Hoskinson wrote:
>
>
> IIRC, Victor's ACRX has variable regen that he applies with a
> hand operated switch. There was a discussion on the list some
> time ago about the merits and risks of regen considering that it
> only affects the drive wheels. I'm going to either set up a
> separate hand switch for brake pedal regen or keep the programmer
> handy to turn it off or down when the roads are icy.
By definition, regen can only be applied to the traction wheels.
Rear wheels in CRX as in many today's cars are freely suspended,
and only mechanical brakes can be applied if you want all wheels
brake.
Whether activation is by a lever on the stick or by brake pedal
won't change this fact.
I do have a switch on the dash to disable regen if I need to.
Haven't used it, there was no need so far. Even on the wet
surface ACRX is stable enough; if I feel I'm about to loose
traction, I just use brake pedal and don't touch the lever.
And, I don't drive on ice :-)
Victor
p.s. If you want all wheels regen, use 4x4 glider.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Felix,
Your POST read like blatant advertising, and your org is
" Trolling for Dollar$ ".
As you can see, Peter's quick response points out, EV
List members will let you know when the EV List's
netiquette not followed.
David is right that some members might want to know
about what your are doing, but it is how you did it.
Two things can happen when blatant ads like your
original POST are placed on discussion lists and groups:
-it rises the ire of those that did not join just to
be spammed
and
-as Rich pointed out by his POST, it opens the door
for all other companies to POST their ads as well
(Hey if he can do, so can I!).
Here is how you can POST without hitting any EV List
member in face with a LARGE ad.
Make a POST with a succinct subject line.
The message body should be brief and point to a url
for more detail:
The non-profit California Cars Initiative is seeking
entrepreneurs to join CalCars' prototype development
project. The invitation is at
http://www.calcars.org/prototypebuyers.html
Regards,
Felix Kramer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Founder California Cars Initiative
http://www.calcars.org
cell 650.520.5555 voice 650.599.9992
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
And that is all. If people want to know more they
will go to the url. Keep it short and sweet, do not
abuse the member's time.
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com
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--- Begin Message ---
That seems really good for a highway speed EV. I have heard of forces
getting 140-200Wh/mile from the traction pack. Figure in some loss and
you come up with Mark's figure.
When I worked at Nova Cruz, the kick scooters would get from 10-25Wh/
mile form the pack, so 15-40Wh/mile from the wall? But they were BLDC,
human leg power hybrid with regen. The Voloci (e-cycle) prototype was
more like 50-75Wh/ mile from the pack so maybe over 100wh/ mile from the
wall. So 180ish is really good, as I never broke 35mph on the Voloci. It
was ~100lbs plus a 200 lb rider, no pedals, just footpegs. With regen,
maybe it got better. I was long gone by then.
Seth
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Tom & Mark & others,
>
> In my 156v Sparrow, I've been averaging 184 watt-hours per mile from the
> wall - 7,000 miles, since Jan 1.
>
> -Ed Thorpe
> finishing upgrade to new 168v pack; DCP Raptor controller
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Villemaire [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 11:03 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc: Mark Villemaire
> Subject: Re: Watthours/Mile (Was: Imperialistic measurements)
>
> Hi All:
>
> According to my records, my out-of-the-wall efficiency for my 92 Solectria
> is 259 watt-hours per mile for the first 19157 miles.
>
> Mark
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tom Hudson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 1:35 PM
> Subject: Watthours/Mile (Was: Imperialistic measurements)
>
> > > Most people report watt-hours per mile, I guess just because most
> > > on this list are Americans and they still use miles. Not so
> > > bad for me, because my D is so old its odometer reports miles.
> > > I've seen some reports of watt-hours per km. Unless you are a
> > > stickler for efficiency measurements, the watt-hours are what the
> > > emeter reports, rather than what you would measure at the wall
> > > outlet when charging.
> >
> > Hmm...
> >
> > According to my records, my out-of-the-wall efficiency is 320 watt-hours
> per
> > mile. Anybody else know what their number is for comparison?
> >
> > -Tom
> >
> > Thomas Hudson
> > http://portdistrict5.org -- 5th District Aldermanic Website
> > http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More
> > http://portgardenclub.org -- Port Washington Garden Club
> > http://portlightstation.org -- Light Station Restoration
> >
> >
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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