EV Digest 2877
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Formula lightning and Epic minivans.
by "Cliff Rassweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) EV awareness day in Portland, July
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-In Hybrid Prototypes
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) Re: So What's So New About Power Factor Corrected EV Battery Chargers
by russco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: So What's So New About Power Factor Corrected EV Battery Chargers
by russco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-In Hybrid Prototypes
by "Leonard Tramiel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: So What's So New About Power Factor Corrected EV Battery Chargers
by russco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: So What's New ...
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) overthinking regen?.
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-In Hybrid Prototypes
by Brad Waddell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: overthinking regen?.
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Regen Braking SEC: unclassified
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-In Hybrid Prototypes
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-In Hybrid Prototypes
by "Leonard Tramiel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: overthinking regen?.
by Gordon Niessen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Kinetic Generator Motors
by Aubrey Wilder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-In Hybrid Prototypes
by "sae" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) I need a fine point clarified on regenerative breaking
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Formula lightning and Epic minivans.
by "BORTEL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Further responses about plug-in hybrids
by Felix Kramer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) LiIon conclusions
by "Gary Graunke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Formula lightning and Epic minivans.
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Welcome back, Russ!
by michael bearden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-In Hybrid Prototypes
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Rod,
I heard the EPIC vans were running the same motors as we are running in the
Electric Imp, Siemans 5134WS20's. If that is right, you can find the torque
curves by going to www.ProEV.com. Go to the Electric Imp Project, then Tech
Specs. Click on the Motor link. There is a picture of the motor and at the
bottom of the page is the torque curves at 340 volts and 380 volts.
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
>
> I just supplied Ohio University (Athens Ohio) with a
> 160 KW controller
> for
> their Formula Lighting race car. The school has 5 of
> the motor out of
> EPIC
> minivans. We successfully ran no load last week. We
> plan on running
> Chassis
> Dyno test next week. Do you have any of the numbers or
> curves on this
> motor
> that we can use to compare our test results against.
>
> Also, if your interested, the Formula lighting cars
> are racing at
> Mansfield
> Speedway on July 4th.
> Best Regards,
>
> Bob Gruenwald
> Electric MotorSports
> 2072 Greenpine Dr
> Cincinnati, OH 45231
> Phone 513-851-3748
> Fax 775-201-1362
> Email [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Web www.fluxvector.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John, Ralph, Bruce or Marshall (OEVA)-
would you please let the list know some details about the OEVA EV awareness
day in Portland in July? I didn't know the exact dates or details and
strangely, I happened to stumble upon our Seattle EV friends' social at Dave
Cloud's place this past Saturday----real weird because I was way out in the
boonies of Woodinville (didn't even know where that was exactly before then)
and had gotten lost trying to find this guy's house (I was picking up a
couple R/C gliders I had bought from someone in Woodinville). Well, driving
down this gravel road, and 2 doors down from "Mr.Glider", who do I find
standing in the gravel road? Why, Rich Rudman. Rich didn't have a clue who
I was, but I'd seen him enough at OEVA meetings and the Woodburn Dragraces
to know that this was really weird to be way out in a place I'd never been
to suddenly see a familiar face standing in the middle of a gravel road.
Rich wondered how I knew that Dave Cloud was having a BBQ and EV parts swap
meet and how neat that I'd drive all the way up from Portland for
this---well, uh, I didn't..."well, it's your lucky day---come on by when
you're done with your R/C gliders" he said...so I did...nice guys---and very
hospitable--- those Seattle EV'ers.
Anyway, John/Marshall/Ralph/Bruce....there's interest in the EV awareness
day if you've got details----and thanks to Dave Cloud, Rich Rudman, 'Father
Time' and the gang for the beer in the woods!
-Myles Twete, Portland
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Thanks!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Myles,
Here are some responses to your questions.
BR,
Ed Thorpe
California EVer
-----Original Message-----
From: Myles Twete wrote:
> Isn't California still pulling out of an electricity crisis
> ---and now State leaders are supposed to get excited about
> leading the charge for plug-in electric hybrids? What's
> wrong with supporting the existing hybrid electrics? With
> SUVs soon to come out in hybrid form anyway, is the value
> added worth the hassles?
The current hybrid-electrics are basically electric-assisted gas vehicles.
The electric battery pack is only recharged through the gas engine running,
and some through regen braking. When the hybrid-electric runs out of gas,
the vehicle stops moving. The focus has been only to have a small electric
subsystem to assist and otherwise gas vehicle.
What is being pushed as a plug-in electric hybrid is a vehicle with
all-electric propulsion for a range of 20, 40 or 60 miles, and gas/electric
hybrid thereafter, until the vehicle is plugged in. During the EV portion it
is hybrid-depleting, where if the gas engine runs it is only for additional
power, no recharging. After the pack of NiMH batteries gets down to about
20% SOC, then the gas engine kicks in, to become hybrid-sustaining. Only
generates enough electrical recharging to maintain this minimal pack level,
which allows the electric to suppliment the gas power. The pack will only
fully recharge by plugging into the grid - a much more efficient use of
energy.
If consumers drive this type of vehicle, they might start out only plugging
in over the weekend, and still have to fill up with gas once or twice per
week. After a while, they will pickup the difference in the electric
recharging paradigm, but plugging in every evening or whenever they've used
up the EV range, and only use the hybrid mode when they are unable to
plug-in, due to longer travel or other reasons. The goal is *not* to have
the gas engine do the recharging of the pack, only the grid.
BTW, since the "energy crisis" California power companies have been building
new power plants. Many of them run on natural gas, which is even being
imported from overseas rather than piped in.
But most EVs recharge at night, when there's aboundant extra power in the
grid. The grid has no storage capabilities, but the power plants cannot be
scaled back very far during the nighttimes and ramped back up during the
day, so there's excess power being wasted to radiation (from the overhead
transmission lines) if there's no users for this power. That's where EVs
come in.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"David Roden (Akron OH USA)" wrote:
> Russ, nice to hear from you again.
>
> But please don't just post to advertise your chargers.
Whoops, busted by the List Police. But trying to stop some of the incorrect
rumors circulating on the list regarding Russco
"Dumb and/or Light Dimmer Chargers may require an outgoing description of the
virtues of the product and may be taken as an advertisement. I think there is
a fine line between an aggressive description and an advertisement.
In the future, call me Careful Russ.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
> I am glad to see Russco filling in the gaps. I have had very little
> hands on time on a Russco. But I know they are a lot better than Light
> dimmer chargers.
Thank you. Thank you. There's one person that doesn't think a Russco
Charger is a Light Dimmer.
Now, is the Russco Charger a dumb or a smart charger? Hmmmm.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Let's see if $150k is really that far out of line? Or to put it another way
is $1.5 million way out of line?
Assume that the batteries, controller, motor and charge controller are $15K.
Add in another $30k for the base car and we are at $540k for a dozen.
Now we need to design, prototype, test, iterate and build the hybrid drive
system and controller. Let's say that takes 4 people for 2 years. Assume
$100k for full expenses per person/year and we get another $800k just for
HR.
This gets us to $1.34 million and we haven't gotten to the actual cost of
making the drive systems and reworking the cars.
-Leonard
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joe Smalley wrote:
>
> Hi Russ;
>
> Interesting write up.
>
>
>
> 1. What is the name of the "Active and passive boost power factor
> correction" circuit that you use?
>
> 2. Why does a boost power factor correction circuit need a boost
> transformer?
>
> Charger description that states requirement:
> http://store.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=168&product_id=1629
>
> Transformer description also states that it is required for packs over 120
> VDC:
> http://store.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=&product_id=1985
>
> 3. Is the transformer necessary to operate the charger from 240 VAC?
Hey Joe,
I haven't seen your charger, but you'll find the Russco Charger is an
order of magnitude simpler than your excellent product. The Russco
Charger is a 60 hertz device; operates from 60 hertz and uses 60 hertz
internally. While the LC network internal to the charger will charge a
192 volt pack from 120 VAC, the charging current is low.
The Russco SC18-120 and SC24-120 chargers operate off 120 VAC only and
are intended for charging packs of 84 to 144 volts. To achieve full
power capabilities of 1800 watts AC or 2400 watts AC from the SC18 or
SC24 respectively, a boost transformer is required for packs of 132 or
144 volts. The boost transformer is a 60 hz. buck/boost transformer
configured as an auto transformer to boost the line voltage by either 16
or 32 volts. The transformer can also be wired to buck the line voltage
for faster charging of 84 volt packs.
Chargers come without the boost transformer. If the transformer is
required, it is mounted external to the charger and wired to an existing
terminal block on the charger. About 98% of chargers are sold without
the transformer, so most EV's are using packs of 120 volts or less. At
least, the EV's using Russco chargers.
For an operational description of Russco Chargers, see my reply to Lee
Hart.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In general, a smart charger refers to a one watching for the battery
and adjusting its output based on current battery conditions, as well
as following own charge profile settings. Usually (on this list) this
means a programmable one, so, a processor controlled.
If the charger is just limits max current and max voltage, it is still
a dumb one. Adding timers, filters and other features protecting
battery or improving power factor makes it much better but it is not
adding "brains" to make it flexible in terms of changing charge
profiles, handling different chemistries, following temp compensation
or tracking amp-hours, so it is still a "dumb" charger with some
intelligence added to it.
For the most people, such a charger is more than enough to take care
of the batteries, especially forgiving ones as flooded PbA type.
Smart battery regulators ("remote brains") can make up for the lack
of brains in the charger making it semi-smart, but are usually
optional and as such technically different class of the product and
are not part of the charger itself.
Trying to use dumb chargers for the batteries with more sophisticated
charging algorithms like NiCd (requiring special commissioning charges
or
tricky temp compensations) or NiNaCl (requiring talking to a charger
over network) at least without means of defining and storing needed
charging characteristics can indeed ruin such batteries in short order.
However, perhaps >95% of people don't use such batteries, so don't care.
"Dumb" may sound bad, but doesn't mean bad charger. Very often
it's adequate charger for given battery and the one which works
perfectly
for years and fits the bill very well, thus so popular.
Victor
russco wrote:
>
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> > I am glad to see Russco filling in the gaps. I have had very little
> > hands on time on a Russco. But I know they are a lot better than Light
> > dimmer chargers.
>
> Thank you. Thank you. There's one person that doesn't think a Russco
> Charger is a Light Dimmer.
>
> Now, is the Russco Charger a dumb or a smart charger? Hmmmm.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks EVlist for all the good info, someday maybe I will be able to
give back.
My apologies to the list if I am overthinking this. I am just not ready
to spend thousands, accept what is easily avail, and end up a
300+wh/mile dog that can't keep up with traffic or costs alot to charge
(They/We drive fast in Fresno CA and my electric will be about $.20/kwh
to charge) I have heard claims of regen "down to zero" and "anti-lock
regenative breaking" and of vehicles where backing off the "go" to fast
breaks the tire loose. I am trying to find out how to achieve this
because I want to build my own controller. I contrast that with the
responses that say it is a waste and has little to offer; that if the
back emf doesn't exceed pack voltage then there is no regen.
random thought : use a low voltage pack and a boost controller,
therefore allowing regen and balanced charging.
I am playing with more than one design until I get the money from the
house refi..
The main one is a little weekend racer to show what can be done, there
is to be no extra weight or redundency.
To achieve this, the design so-far is for a transaxle that would bolt to
the frame of a pickup in place of the third member. It would have the
electric motors integrated in it. The shifting would be sequential with
the "auto lift" handled by the controller to alleviate the shifting
problem. Use the regen to drag the rpms down to match for the next gear.
Quick shifts are a must. No clutch, no reverse, independent rear suspension!
For testing, this goes in my little mitsubishi Pickup that I used in
autocross.I would like to show up there again as an electric:-). This
means light, fast, able to handle. I am reading this list every day
following the discusions on the new batteries for this reason. Anyone
have problems with sloshing on flooded batteries?
I Agree, regular transmissions are 90% efficient but the driveline takes
a little and the hypoid rear ends take a lot. I am planning on buying
standard MK9 or DG dog tooth gears and other standard race transsmission
components and making the pattern for and machining my own casting. I
agree on the noisy part but I want to see how many watt-hours/mile I can
achieve. It looks like I could integrate the motor to the first shaft
with 4 sets of 3.2 centered chage gears onto a second shaft. this drives
a pinion and crown without a 90 degree turn. should be 95% eff in all
gears.
A few percent here a few percent there, the effect can multiply. I won't
know untill I try. For a baseline, Anyone out there with a mitsubishi
PU conversion that can tell me their wh/mile and give me a description
of handling and performance?
aren't computer fans single phase? doesn't a three phase motor just sit
and humm if a phase gets stuck on or off, If I don't use a clutch, what
other safety mechanism could I use?
The design waits on the motor type decision, looks like it is between
Slip-ring, sepx, and BLDC.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Myles,
At 03:08 PM 06/24/2003 -0700, you wrote:
Sure, we all want to see more plug-in infrastructure for our EVs---me, for
my electric boat---but imagine if even 100,000 plug-in hybrids went online
in California suddenly, each using perhaps 15kwh/day of grid electricity.
That's an extra 1500Mwh/day (or, 60MWatt rate) of electricity. So, we'd
better be talking about adding lots of windmills and solar panels at the
same time---and funding it all somehow while we're at it.
EV's are charged at night when the Coal plants shut down and only the dams
and nuclear are still running because demand is quite low. In fact, more
electricity is produced than needed at this time. I have read reports that
600,000 electric cars could be charged each night before any new electric
infrastructure would be required because of existing oversupply at night.
brad
Brad Waddell ** FLEXquarters.com LLC ** voice-mail/fax: 602-532-7019
Postal: 6965 El Camino Real Ste 105 #488 Carlsbad CA 92009 USA
QODBC Driver for Quickbooks - Unleash your data at www.qodbc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
>
> ...I am just not ready
> to spend thousands, accept what is easily avail,
....
> I have heard claims of regen "down to zero" and "anti-lock
> regenative breaking" and of vehicles where backing off the "go" to fast
> breaks the tire loose. I am trying to find out how to achieve this
> because I want to build my own controller.
I have such a "controller" in my car for a few thousands.
I'm afraid designing, building and testing own controller worth
putting in a highway capable EV will cost much more than that.
...
> To achieve this, the design so-far is for a transaxle that would bolt to
> the frame of a pickup in place of the third member. It would have the
> electric motors integrated in it. The shifting would be sequential with
> the "auto lift" handled by the controller to alleviate the shifting
> problem. Use the regen to drag the rpms down to match for the next gear.
> Quick shifts are a must. No clutch, no reverse, independent rear suspension!
I believe, far more elegant and simple solutions offering regen exist.
Unless you just love tinkering and can't stop :-)
...
> I am planning on buying
> standard MK9 or DG dog tooth gears and other standard race transsmission
> components and making the pattern for and machining my own casting.
I thought you said you're not ready to spend thousands...
...
> doesn't a three phase motor just sit
> and humm if a phase gets stuck on or off, If I don't use a clutch, what
> other safety mechanism could I use?
No, it doesn't.
> The design waits on the motor type decision, looks like it is between
> Slip-ring, sepx, and BLDC.
Best luck designing decent control. Talk to Otmar or Rich about
what's involved.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The main problem is that unless you start with a four wheel drive
vehicle, how are you going to attach the alternators to the front
wheels?
On Tue, 2003-06-24 at 14:50, Snudden, Neil FLGOFF wrote:
> All,
>
> I am a new reader to this forum and have found the discussion generally very
> interesting.
>
> I have a thought on regen braking that I would like to throw into the fray.
>
> Assuming that the EV is rear wheel drive, has anyone considered using
> alternators (or similar devices) connected to the front wheels. The rotor of
> the alternator would be fed a variable voltage depending upon the amount of
> force applied to the brake pedal; the more voltage fed to the rotor the
> greater the braking effect. I would still have front brakes fitted, however
> they could be set to activate much later in the brake pedal movement.
>
> I see several advantages to using this setup:
> 1. The front wheels perform about 75% of the braking.
> 2. The voltage out of the alternator could be set to the correct
> battery voltage, therefore direct charging.
> 3. Sensors could be placed on the front wheels to detect skidding, the
> voltage to the rotor could then be removed/lowered to stop the skid,
> therefore the alternators would be a kind of ABS.
> 4. Could be used in conjunction with a cruse control to reduce speed
> when going downhill.
> 5. Alternators are available cheap.
>
> Some disadvantages or things that would need to be considered are:
> 1. Half shafts with CV joints would need to be fitted to the front
> wheels,
> 2. Belt/chain or gear drives would need to be fitted between the half
> shafts and the alternators.
> 3. Additional drag would be encountered by the extra stuff.
> 4. Isolation between the battery bank and the alternators and between
> both alternators.
>
> If the car you convert was front wheel drive and you made it rear wheel twin
> EV drive, the addition of the alternators is easy.
>
>
> What do you think?
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Neil from OZ
>
--
EVDL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 2003-06-24 at 16:12, Leonard Tramiel wrote:
> Let's see if $150k is really that far out of line? Or to put it another way
> is $1.5 million way out of line?
>
> Assume that the batteries, controller, motor and charge controller are $15K.
> Add in another $30k for the base car and we are at $540k for a dozen.
>
> Now we need to design, prototype, test, iterate and build the hybrid drive
> system and controller. Let's say that takes 4 people for 2 years. Assume
> $100k for full expenses per person/year and we get another $800k just for
> HR.
>
Cool, can I get a Job? Oh yeah, they aren't looking for Techs and
Engineers yet, just marketing folks.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 6:07 PM
Subject: Re: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-In Hybrid Prototypes
> > Now we need to design, prototype, test, iterate and build the hybrid
drive
> > system and controller. Let's say that takes 4 people for 2 years. Assume
> > $100k for full expenses per person/year and we get another $800k just
for
> > HR.
> >
>
> Cool, can I get a Job? Oh yeah, they aren't looking for Techs and
> Engineers yet, just marketing folks.
>
I don't know. Can you do the work? Have you designed, from scratch, a
mutli-power sourced automotive drive system? This isn't trivial and it
involved a lot more than just assembling existing parts. I don't know the
people on this list. I wouldn't be surprised that someone has the relevant
skills. Maybe you do Peter. If so I suggest you contact Felix and offer to
consult.
I was trying to start a realistic discussion of the reasonable costs
involved. If we never get past sarcasm then I guess that isn't going to
work.
If you have a better estimate, even better if it is based on some real-life
experience I'd love to read it.
My estimate was strictly a SWAG (Stupid Wild Ass Guess) but I through it out
to start somewhere. Unless we are taking an existing design for the drive
system I don't think I was really that far off. If I was, tell me where.
-Leonard
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I Agree, regular transmissions are 90% efficient but the driveline takes a
little and the hypoid rear ends take a lot. I am planning on buying
standard MK9 or DG dog tooth gears and other standard race transsmission
components and making the pattern for and machining my own casting. I
agree on the noisy part but I want to see how many watt-hours/mile I can
achieve. It looks like I could integrate the motor to the first shaft with
4 sets of 3.2 centered chage gears onto a second shaft. this drives a
pinion and crown without a 90 degree turn. should be 95% eff in all gears.
Where are you getting these parts? Is there a web site? Catalog?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVers,
I attended the Electric Vehicle Association of Southern California meeting
on Saturday in Diamond Bar, California and thought I'd pass along some
interesting stuff from the meeting.
We had a guest speaker there named Robert Sharp of Trinity Motors. He said
that his company had created a new kind of motor for EV type uses that will
recharge the batteries as you drive. He said that it could at least double
and possibly quadruple the current range of EVs.
Now, before this becomes an intense discussion of how impossible this is,
like it did at the meeting, please understand that I know nothing about
this, I'm just passing on the info. I'm not an engineer and didn't
understand it much. However, he did have a working model and passed out a
brochure. For more info, see http://www.trinitymotors.net/
Aubrey
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I wanted to stay out of this, but I think 150k is really not a bad figure.
I've been building hybrids for a few years and they are a lot more expensive
than you might think. I'm guessing thatthey will be using an AC Propulsions
drive, since they talk about powering back to the grid and the ACP is the
only drive I know of that can do this. I'm also guessing that they will be
using some sort of advanced battery technology. Figure 30k for the drive,
and 20k for the batts, 30k for a car, plaus they need a different engine and
probably a custom transmission to tie everything together. Add to that some
sort of custom computer to determine when to run what power source. We
build relatively low budget cars and have yet to build one for less that
100k. All of you know new technology isn't cheap. Why are race cas so
expensive? It's because everything is custom built for that application.
Making copies is cheap.
paul
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Leonard Tramiel
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 9:02 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-In Hybrid Prototypes
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 6:07 PM
Subject: Re: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-In Hybrid Prototypes
> > Now we need to design, prototype, test, iterate and build the hybrid
drive
> > system and controller. Let's say that takes 4 people for 2 years. Assume
> > $100k for full expenses per person/year and we get another $800k just
for
> > HR.
> >
>
> Cool, can I get a Job? Oh yeah, they aren't looking for Techs and
> Engineers yet, just marketing folks.
>
I don't know. Can you do the work? Have you designed, from scratch, a
mutli-power sourced automotive drive system? This isn't trivial and it
involved a lot more than just assembling existing parts. I don't know the
people on this list. I wouldn't be surprised that someone has the relevant
skills. Maybe you do Peter. If so I suggest you contact Felix and offer to
consult.
I was trying to start a realistic discussion of the reasonable costs
involved. If we never get past sarcasm then I guess that isn't going to
work.
If you have a better estimate, even better if it is based on some real-life
experience I'd love to read it.
My estimate was strictly a SWAG (Stupid Wild Ass Guess) but I through it out
to start somewhere. Unless we are taking an existing design for the drive
system I don't think I was really that far off. If I was, tell me where.
-Leonard
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Everywhere I read, "when the back emf is greater than the voltage from
the controller, regeration takes effect."
ok, I got it.
From here I see 2 different explinations. One says if it doesn't exceed
the pack voltage there is no regen current and the other says the
voltage accumlates and climbs, indeed, they state that if the battery
becomes disconnected during breaking that the voltage will climb untill
it exceeds the mosfet's capabilities and let the smoke out.
I understand that inductors don't like a change in current, is this
spike just at the transition and doesn't apply to a braking event? or is
each phase coming around over controller voltage generating a new charge
of regen energy.
is it controller voltage or pack voltage?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rod,
These should be the motors built by Westinghouse/Northrop-Grumman/Satcon. If
they are, I can get you a contact at Satcon for the information you need.
Chrysler and Satcon were both giving their left over motors & controls away
to schools in the last year.
Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 9:37 AM
Subject: Formula lightning and Epic minivans.
> This message was sent by Bob and I thought
> the list would be interested to know that the
> formula lightning electrics will be racing
> in Mansfield, OH on July 4.
> P.s. Does anybody have speed torque curves for
> the AC induction motors used in the Epic Minivan?
> Thanks,
> Rod
>
> Hi Rod,
> I had 3 email addresses for you, didn't know which one
> to use, so I
> sent
> this to all three. Let me know which one to use.
>
> I just supplied Ohio University (Athens Ohio) with a
> 160 KW controller
> for
> their Formula Lighting race car. The school has 5 of
> the motor out of
> EPIC
> minivans. We successfully ran no load last week. We
> plan on running
> Chassis
> Dyno test next week. Do you have any of the numbers or
> curves on this
> motor
> that we can use to compare our test results against.
>
> Also, if your interested, the Formula lighting cars
> are racing at
> Mansfield
> Speedway on July 4th.
> Best Regards,
>
> Bob Gruenwald
> Electric MotorSports
> 2072 Greenpine Dr
> Cincinnati, OH 45231
> Phone 513-851-3748
> Fax 775-201-1362
> Email [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Web www.fluxvector.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Listmembers:
I think most people agree that this is a time for anyone looking to promote
EVs to be open to new strategies. For instance, if some people concluded
that PHEVs might be a back-door way for people to realize that what they
really need is an EV, and that mass production of PHEVs have made that
possible by improving cost factors, I'd be the last one to take issue with
that.
I really appreciate all the feedback and discussion. It's very helpful!
(Sorry I'm not able to reply to messages more than 1-2x/day,which means my
response breaks the threads.) Some specific comments:
Lawrence Rhodes:
We too are watching what's happening with batteries. We're hoping that
timing on our prototypes will coincide with the availability of Lithium Ion
or Lithium Polymer batteries -- lots of people are experimenting with
bundling up laptop batteries, and a few Chinese and Korean companies in
particular seem to be making lots of progress.
Christ Tromley:
I agree that yet one more reason car makers will be almost as reluctant to
build PHEVs as EVs (and dealers to sell them) is that they'll dry up some
of their regular revenue streams.
We bring to the equation a model of assembling customers into a buy order.
Of course, in addition to the majors, we can approach some of the emerging
or smaller manufacturers (a few, like Hyundai, aren't 100% owned and
controlled by the majors). A combination of legislative
initiatives/incentives and a CalCars Buyers' Club buy order could be even
better.
If we truly can't interest any car maker in modifying an existing vehicle
type for some tens of thousands of interested customers, we could also
imagine a different strategy: a franchised model, where say 10 authorized
service centers across the state agreed to retrofit a particular vehicle
that a customer would bring in, using CalCars' design, centrally purchased
components, centrally re-sold no-longer needed components, and a local-shop
warranty.
Rich Rudman:
I'm sorry, we don't yet have a vehicle model type or a spec. (I, as a
non-engineer, would be the last person to venture into that territory. Some
of it depends on early input from Prototype Buyers and Charter Sponsors. We
do have the makings of a Technology Advisory Panel (at the moment they're
mixed in with other advisors and endorsers at
http://www.calcars.org/about.html and http://www.calcars.org/kudos.html ),
including the people who've built proof-of-concept PHEVs.
We'd like to take you up on your offer of sincere input -- we'd welcome
help from any individual or group that developed from this community.
Sam Thurber:
We're not putting much faith in better rulings from CARB. The accumulated
credits are probably unassailable, which means that even best case, the
auto makers wouldn't have to do much for 5 or more years. The Pavley bill
may have more promising consequences. And the California Energy Commission,
under a mandate to reduce gasoline consumption, may come out with some
policies that could provide endorsements for PHEVs. As for a change in the
Governor, I don't see many scenarios under which we'd end up with better
energy policies!
Myles Twete:
PHEVs would probably have no negative effect on the grid infrastructure.
Most charging would be at night, when there's a surplus of capacity (and
the existence of PHEVs would increase pressure for more time-of-day utility
rates). Several of AC Propulsion's white papers address this subject in detail.
Proponents of V2G (vehicle-to-grid) make clear that the distributed storage
of batteries in parked vehicles would not be used to provide peak power,
but rather for minute adjustments to help the utilities with voltage
regulation and related processes -- not load levelling. (Of course, this
whole technology is pretty far away, requiring advanced telematics to
identify and meter each vehicle, etc. AC Propulsion's bi-directional
charger-controller makes it possible and worth discussing.) And you're
right that battery warranty and charge/discharge regimens would be a major
issue.
By the way, some of the announced hybrids SUVs from GM, for instance, are
HEVs in name only (providing little more than power for starter motors or
simply adding a bit more acceleration capacity).
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
Felix Kramer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Founder California Cars Initiative
http://www.calcars.org
cell 650.520.5555 voice 650.599.9992
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have reached some conclusions after our initial LiIon excellent testing
that Chris Brune has been doing on 4 TS-TLP90A LiIon cells.
Our test results, equipment used, and procedures can be found on my website
at http://ev.whitecape.org/lion .
The summary, which gives a description of each test, is at
LiIonSummary6-22-03.pdf . There are other documents showing the equipment
used. The raw data is in excel spreadsheets, and the graphs are in pdf
files.
We think that the cells heat up far too fast when drawing currents over 30A.
At 80A, the rise in temperature as measured externally (inside is hotter) is
about 1 degree C every 6 seconds. In addition, it seems very hard to cool
them effectively.
The heat also appears to shorten cell lifetime, and we are seeing
preliminary signs of a decrease in capacity.
On the brighter side, they still are a very effective energy source for
their weight.
Our current focus is to look at using them as part of a hybrid battery pack,
and we'll be doing some experiments that emulate that usage model. We'll be
simulating alternating driving and resting (cooling off) periods, or a usage
model of going somewhere, stopping for time, and returning. We want to see
how long it takes them to get to a stable (and acceptable) heat level.
For my own Insight project, I plan to use 20 16AH Hawker batteries for the
power pack that is directly driving the motor. These will weigh 280 lbs, and
fill the gas tank cavity battery box. The Hawkers are proven to take extreme
power abuse by the drag racing set, and can put out 10 times the current
necessary to climb the steepest, longest freeway grade in Portland at the
speed limit for the 240V power pack.
Recharging them at a constant rate of 20A is easily possible with a
DC-capable PFC 20 charger (I'll be getting my PFC50 modified to be DC
capable). For all but freeway driving, this would put a sustainable load on
the 56 TLP90A LiIon cells. With some additional battery boxes so I can go to
94 cells, I will probably be able to even do continuous highway driving.
The new tests will tell.
Using preliminary efficiency numbers for the Insight, stop and go traffic
(the way I drive) would draw 13 (94 cells) to 22 (56 cells) amps. Steady
highway driving at 55 mph would use 35 (94 cells) to 54 (56 cells) amps
(probably need 90+ cells to be viable). Steady 45 mph driving would draw a
steady 15.3 (94 cells) to 20.3 (56 cells) amps--very easy on the cells.
Oddly enough, with 94 TLP90A LiIon cells, and the 20 16AH Hawkers, the
weight of the batteries would be exactly 30% of the total vehicle weight,
following a traditional rule of thumb. And I actually like putting the
heavier Hawkers in the middle of the vehicle down low. The total weight will
still be a fairly light 2300 lbs--still lighter than it would be with a pure
NiCd, NiZn pack.
Of course, the PFC can still be used as a charger for the LiIon pack with
some additional wiring and contactors, saving any extra weight needed for
the DC-DC for the hybrid pack.
To some, it may be disappointing that one cannot just use a LiIon pack
directly.
However, I feel that the hybrid pack approach is a much better approach,
even if a bit more complicated. There is no question that the Hawker's can
handle the power requirements of climbing and acceleration. There is also no
question that the high energy, but low power, LiIon pack will have its
lifetime as well as its safety optimized.
Hybrid packs may make sense as well for NiCd and NiZn packs.
Cheers!
Gary
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is the best feature of the EVlist, finding
out things about EV parts you had no idea about.
Giovanni at Chrysler was going to send the
information to me, but this is even easier.
Giovanni also said they plan on crushing lots
of Epic vans in AZ soon. Hopefully I can find
a way to salvage at least one? I would at least
like to salvage one Epic AC motor and control
for future TEVan upgrades.
Speaking of TEVan's I might get over 2,000 lbs
of TEVan 'stuff' from the ex repair center.
If this happens I'll let the list know, many good
EV parts to distribute!!.
--- Cliff Rassweiler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Rod,
>
> I heard the EPIC vans were running the same motors
> as we are running in the
> Electric Imp, Siemans 5134WS20's. If that is right,
> you can find the torque
> curves by going to www.ProEV.com. Go to the Electric
> Imp Project, then Tech
> Specs. Click on the Motor link. There is a picture
> of the motor and at the
> bottom of the page is the torque curves at 340 volts
> and 380 volts.
>
> Cliff
>
> www.ProEV.com
>
>
> >
> > I just supplied Ohio University (Athens Ohio) with
> a
> > 160 KW controller
> > for
> > their Formula Lighting race car. The school has 5
> of
> > the motor out of
> > EPIC
> > minivans. We successfully ran no load last week.
> We
> > plan on running
> > Chassis
> > Dyno test next week. Do you have any of the
> numbers or
> > curves on this
> > motor
> > that we can use to compare our test results
> against.
> >
> > Also, if your interested, the Formula lighting
> cars
> > are racing at
> > Mansfield
> > Speedway on July 4th.
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > Bob Gruenwald
> > Electric MotorSports
> > 2072 Greenpine Dr
> > Cincinnati, OH 45231
> > Phone 513-851-3748
> > Fax 775-201-1362
> > Email [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Web www.fluxvector.com
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just wanted to say-it makes my heart glad when one of the EV Elders comes
back on list-and Russ certainly deserves that title and the respect that
should go with it.
There are many of you out there-the guys who were making workable EVs out
of aircraft starter/generators and contactor controllers in the 70's and
80's-and people like me wouldn't be driving EVs without you.
It just made me feel good to see something from Russ on the list...
Michael B.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Felix
I didn't see what your idea is for building this plug in hybrid , How are
you planning on doing this. I have toyed with the idea of using a front
wheel drive car and putting an EV setup on the back wheels . Could use a
tranny from another (same model) car and mount it in the back to drive the
back wheels . I'm thinking This would be an ac drive with regen . So the
gas
end of the car is done and working ( as well as before), and the back end of
the car is a regular EV conversion. I know it would get worse gas mileage ,
with the added weight , You'd be using an old gas engine and when driving on
electric you'd be pulling it around also so it wouldn't get the distance
that a BEV dose. The main reason I even think about this is that I get asked
about it often so you may have something the gas burning public thinks they
want. I think that the extra weight would make this a loser compared to all
electric or all gas but It could be 4 wheel drive and have some power if you
ran both at the same time and isn't that really what people want.Plug it in
and gas it up ! I can see kids putting the front in drive and back in
reverse and smoking the tires while standing still they'll love it, what's
your Idea?
Steve Clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Felix Kramer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 11:43 AM
Subject: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-In Hybrid Prototypes
> Dear EV enthusiast
>
> The non-profit California Cars Initiative is talking with some
> California entrepreneurs who are considering joining CalCars'
> prototype development project. Below, you'll find details of the
> opportunity to buy and test one of about a dozen prototype
> plug-in hybrids. The invitation is also at
> http://www.calcars.org/prototypebuyers.html
>
> We recognize that most EV owners don't have substantial resources.
> But many of you know people who do!
>
> Please forward this email broadly to anyone you think may fit the
> profile of a "Super-Early Adopter" -- someone who cares about
> technology, cars and the environment, and who could afford to spend
> far more than anyone would normally pay for a car in order to own one
> of the first driveable prototypes -- and, of course, help bring a new
> vehicle type into existence.
>
> In particular, if you know anyone who has been driving a leased
> GM EV1, Ford Th!nk, or other electric vehicle, and is already or is
> about to become a "stranded EV driver," you could point out to them
> that with poor prospects for new highway-capable EVs, getting a
> plug-in hybrid that is all electric for local trips may be their
> best alternative.
>
> If you have even a casual acquaintance with any high profile EV1
> owners -- Mayor Willie Brown, candidate Gavin Newsom, Commonwealth
> Club's Gloria Duffy, entrepreneurs John Chambers, Ken Adelman, Steve
> Kirsch, Jim Clark, etc.-- don't hesitate to tell them about this
> opportunity! And of course, feel free to pass it on to any high-
> wealth individuals in tech or non-tech businesses, venture capital
> and angel investing.
>
> For people who are seriously considering the opportunity, we'll
> schedule a Q&A session to talk about both technical and strategic
> issues. If enough people are interested, we're available as early as
> THIS FRIDAY in Silicon Valley.
>
> If you're inspired to help spread the word, note that I've
> posted a version of this message to the following mailing lists:
> Yahoo Groups: evworld, electric vehicles, sparrow_ev
> Also: EV1-CLUB, Electric Vehicle Discussion List (sjsu.edu)
> If you're a subscriber to others, feel free to re-post.
>
> (IF YOU FORWARD TO AN INDIVIDUAL YOU COULD DELETE EVERYTHING ABOVE;
> TO A MAILING LIST, YOU COULD INCLUDE THE MESSAGE ABOVE)
>
>
> You Can Create a "SEA" Change
> Help Develop the Next Generation of Earth-Friendly Cars
>
> Dear "SEA" (Super-Early Adopter)
> (Please pass this on if you're not an "SEA" but you know one)
>
> What if you knew that by buying a new kind of car, you could
> personally hasten oil independence, reduce air pollution, and slow
> global warming? And drive solo in the carpool lane? As a Super-Early
> Adopter, you can play a key role in getting far cleaner, more fuel-
> efficient cars on the road soon.
>
> My name is Felix Kramer. Until 2001, I was an Internet entrepreneur.
> I then founded, with other entrepreneurs, environmentalists and
> technologists, the California Cars Initiative (CalCars), a nonprofit
> start-up to introduce "plug-in hybrids".
>
> The first generation of hybrids (Toyota Prius and Honda Civic) are
> already quite popular, and most auto makers will build ones like
> them. These "conventional" hybrids combine a normal gasoline engine
> with a small electric "helper" motor to modestly improve fuel economy
> and reduce emissions. Still, they get their power from (mostly
> imported) oil.
>
> The next generation of hybrids is waiting in the wings. Plug-in
> hybrids use the same technology. But their larger battery storage and
> more powerful motors give you the option to run totally on
> electricity for local trips, while the gasoline engine gives you
> unlimited range. Results: better mileage, lower emissions -- and a
> lower total cost of ownership over the vehicle's life than
> conventional cars or hybrids.
>
> Major auto makers have NO plans to introduce any new types of
> vehicles between conventional hybrids and fuel cell cars. They could
> build plug-in hybrids right now. But they won't -- because they say
> there's no demand for them. We therefore face a "gap" that by the
> most optimistic estimate will last at least 10 years and perhaps as
> long as 20.
>
> That's where CALCARS comes in. We can't wait until the auto makers
> finally produce the cars we want. Plug-in hybrids don't need a whole
> new design -- or fueling infrastructure like fuel cell cars. They can
> simply be modified versions of an existing sedan or SUV. CalCars'
> technical advisors have already built plug-in hybrid conversions, and
> are ready to begin more advanced production.
>
> That's where YOU come in. We're looking for local entrepreneurs
> interested in signing up to buy Calcars' plug-in prototypes. We chose
> entrepreneurs because they have the vision to see a path to the
> future -- and the drive to get there. Several are considering the
> idea, and we hope you -- or someone you will tell about CalCars --
> will join them.
>
> You can be among the first to own one of these cars. In the next 12-
> 18 months, we and our integration partners plan to produce a series
> of prototypes using a sedan (e.g., VW Jetta) or SUV (e.g., Toyota
> RAV4 or Lexus RX330). The conversions will double the fuel economy
> and provide a zero-emission electric-only mode, while retaining all
> the amenities of these well-engineered vehicles. Your vehicle will be
> safe, insurable and run at highway speeds. You'll drive it just like
> any other car. If you want, in an "open source" process, you can
> report back to our automotive and interface engineers, to help
> CalCars improve each successive prototype.
>
> Building a dozen prototypes will cost between $1-$2 million, or about
> $150,000 for each "one-off" vehicle. We're looking for a dozen SEAs
> who can spend this much (some of it will be tax-deductible.) Mass
> produced, the cost will drop to just a few thousand dollars more than
> conventional hybrids, much of which will be offset by savings on fuel
> and repairs -- and less time spent at the pump.
>
> I'm not asking for your commitment today. Let's start with a
> conversation! Initial orders from prototype buyers will help advance
> our discussions with funders, partners and customers across
> California, and demonstrate demand among individuals and fleets,
> setting the stage for our Buyers Club to bring a "buy order" for plug-
> ins to a major auto maker.
>
> I look forward to hearing your reactions. Meanwhile, please check out
> http://www.calcars.org -- in particular, the About, Kudos, and
> Vehicle pages, and links to a recent speech that explains more about
> CalCars and our strategy.
>
> We believe there's no more effective way for you to address the
> urgent issues of global warming, oil independence and air quality
> than to buy a prototype plug-in. With your help, we can get the cars
> we really want -- starting here and now in California.
>
> Regards, Felix Kramer
> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> Felix Kramer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Founder California Cars Initiative
> http://www.calcars.org
> cell 650.520.5555 voice 650.599.9992
> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
>
--- End Message ---
