EV Digest 2878
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re:ford EV factory conversion.
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: So What's So New About Power Factor Corrected EV Battery Chargers
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-In Hybrid Prototypes
by "Mark Thomasson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: I need a fine point clarified on regenerative breaking
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: So What's So New About Power Factor Corrected EV Battery Chargers
by John Bryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Just do it
by "The Levine Family" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) EV Awareness Day in Portland, July 26th!
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: LiIon conclusions
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: I need a fine point clarified on regenerative breaking
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-In Hybrid Prototypes
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Kinetic Generator Motors
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Just do it (Hybrid)
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RAV4 hybrid
by "The Levine Family" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Kinetic Generator Motors
by "The Levine Family" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Just do it (Hybrid)
by "The Levine Family" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: LiIon conclusions
by "The Levine Family" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: LiIon conclusions
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: So What's So New About Power Factor Corrected EV Battery Chargers
by russco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-In Hybrid Prototypes
by Brad Waddell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) where do I get these parts
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: CalCars Seeks Sponsors for Plug-In Hybrid Prototypes
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Formula lightning and Epic minivans.
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: I need a fine point clarified on regenerative breaking
by "paul compton (RRes-Roth)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Battery Cycler project
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
It's been over two weeks and I've been so busy (mowing lawns not working on
EV's ) I haven't gotten back to see Bob on the Ford ranger ev truck. I have
a lawn over that way so I stopped and talked to him again . The truck is
still at the golf cart place and it dosn't sound like anything has happened
, I told him there was some intrest in it and might be able to get 8k for
it if we charged it so it would run. He said that he was going to leave it
with the golf cart guy for a little longer but if he couldn't do anything
I'd get a shot. , He had picked up another charger for it also . Then he
said he had somthing for me. A nice isolation transofrmore that looks like
about 1.5kv with lots of taps, FREE . I still have no info on what type
of batteries it has .
Steve Clunn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You answer had good information in it and gives a very good view of the
application of the device to battery charging.
I guess I missed the reply to Lee. I know I did not delete it.
Can you forward me a copy off-line?
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "russco" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 4:28 PM
Subject: Re: So What's So New About Power Factor Corrected EV Battery
Chargers
> For an operational description of Russco Chargers, see my reply to Lee
> Hart.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 5:39 PM
> But most EVs recharge at night, when there's aboundant extra power in the
> grid. The grid has no storage capabilities, but the power plants cannot be
> scaled back very far during the nighttimes and ramped back up during the
> day, so there's excess power being wasted to radiation (from the overhead
> transmission lines) if there's no users for this power. That's where EVs
> come in.
>
Charging EV's at night does fit well in the utilities' load patterns.
And it is true that the grid has no storage capabilities, unless you
consider the very limited use of energy storage technologies, such as pumped
storage (see Mt. Elbert Pumped Storage Powerplant
http://www.usbr.gov/power/data/sites/mtelbert/mtelbert.htm ). However,
utilities cannot use the transmission lines to get rid of excess energy. A
utility's production of electrical energy must match the load. As load
drops off at night, the frequency and voltage of the grid will rise.
Feedback control loops at the power plant sense the change and cut back
production by cutting fuel, closing the water valve, inserting moderating
rods, etc, depending on which type of power plant is being used to balance
the system.
The advantage of charging EV's at night occurs because this gives the
utilities a more constant load to supply and allows them to supply that load
with efficient base load plants. Base load plants consist of the most
efficient production plants the utilities have available and are online as
much as possible. Coal and nuclear are base load, and usually hydro. Base
load plants are hard to cut back and only run efficiently at high production
rates. Peaking load plants are used to supply the fluctuation of load that
occurs during the day. These plants can come on and off line quickly and
more easily adjust to changing loads. Peaking plants are usually gas or
oil fired turbines and boilers. Some peaking plants are as simple as gas
turbine generators that exhaust straight to the air with no waste heat
recovery. Because of this they may be quickly started up in the afternoon
and shut down at night, or started any time emergency power is needed.
Peaking load plants are the most inefficient and polluting plants in a
utility's inventory of production facilities.
So, if you charge during the day, you may be using inefficiently
produced power from simple cycle gas turbine generators. If you charge at
night you are helping the utility level their load as well as using the most
efficient electric power production facilities. Even better, don't turn the
charge on until midnight, after the microwaves, TV sets, and Nintendo games
are turned off (and the A/C load drops in South Texas). I welcome your
feedback to all this. Thanks, Mark T.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Several ideas cross here and you need to think of them separately to keep
your head from hurting.
1. PM motors (both brushed and BLCD) and shunt motors have a back EMF
"voltage" stated in "Volts per RPM."
When you spin them, the motor terminal voltage will rise linearly with RPM.
If you spin them fast enough, the voltage will exceed the battery voltage
and make the MOSFET body diode (Brushed PM) or Bridge diodes (BLDC) conduct
into the battery pack. If a motor controller can boost the motor voltage to
the battery voltage, then regen is controllable. If you are just using the
controller diode to regen, then the motor/battery combination just limits
your speed to a fairly constant RPM.
2. Wound field motors (series) have back EMF rated in "Ohms per RPM". As the
RPM goes up, the motor resistance goes up causing it to draw less current
than at lower RPM. This is commonly called back EMF but is not the same as
in the case above. You cannot get this type of motor to regen without
switching the field from series to some sort of external excitation and take
the regen energy from the brushes without the series field in the circuit.
3. When you spin a squirrel cage motor (or SRM) above the controller
frequency, it puts energy back into the battery through the bridge diodes. I
can't explain how, but it has to do with building current in the windings in
the same direction as the voltage instead of opposite of the voltage that
normally happens when the rotor is turning less than synchronous speed. The
controller will boost the motor voltage to the battery voltage to cause
regen.
When you get these three cases separated in your mind and can think of them
as separate situations, then you can probably grasp each of the three of
them.
Trying to think of all three at once makes my head hurt, too.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVlist" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 6:46 PM
Subject: I need a fine point clarified on regenerative breaking
> Everywhere I read, "when the back emf is greater than the voltage from
> the controller, regeration takes effect."
> ok, I got it.
>
> From here I see 2 different explinations. One says if it doesn't exceed
> the pack voltage there is no regen current and the other says the
> voltage accumlates and climbs, indeed, they state that if the battery
> becomes disconnected during breaking that the voltage will climb untill
> it exceeds the mosfet's capabilities and let the smoke out.
>
> I understand that inductors don't like a change in current, is this
> spike just at the transition and doesn't apply to a braking event? or is
> each phase coming around over controller voltage generating a new charge
> of regen energy.
>
> is it controller voltage or pack voltage?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joe Smalley wrote:
>
> You answer had good information in it and gives a very good view of the
> application of the device to battery charging.
>
> I guess I missed the reply to Lee. I know I did not delete it.
>
> Can you forward me a copy off-line?
How about on-list, I didn't receive it either.
Good to hear from you Russ, I spoke with you when I was
working on Ken Farnsworths car.
..John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<I have toyed with the idea of using a front
wheel drive car and putting an EV setup on the back wheels . Could use a
tranny from another (same model) car and mount it in the back to drive the
back wheels . I'm thinking This would be an ac drive with regen . So the gas
end of the car is done and working ( as well as before), and the back end of
the car is a regular EV conversion. I know it would get worse gas mileage ,
with the added weight , You'd be using an old gas engine and when driving on
electric you'd be pulling it around also so it wouldn't get the distance
that a BEV dose. The main reason I even think about this is that I get asked
about it often so you may have something the gas burning public thinks they
want. I think that the extra weight would make this a loser compared to all
electric or all gas but It could be 4 wheel drive and have some power if you
ran both at the same time and isn't that really what people want.Plug it in
and gas it up ! I can see kids putting the front in drive and back in
reverse and smoking the tires while standing still they'll love it, what's
your Idea?>>
Your idea may be less than optimally efficient, but it's fast, cheap, and
easy. Another "not optimally efficient" version is a straight BEV with a
small ICE-powered generator on-board - this series power unit can use very
simple controls, coming on only when SOC is, say, 50% and off when 80%, or
whatever suits the battery pack (not much brains needed). Sizing the ICE for
the equivalent draw at 65-75mph would be enough for most uses. There are
plenty of other ideas that would work, like that Saab hybrid another listee
did many years ago. This whole HEV issue is another case of overthinking -
money spent on consultants instead of getting your hands dirty.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Myles Twete wrote:
> John, Ralph, Bruce or Marshall (OEVA)-
> would you please let the list know some details about the OEVA EV awareness
> day in Portland in July? I didn't know the exact dates or details.....Anyway,
> John/Marshall/Ralph/Bruce....there's interest in the EV awareness
> day if you've got details---
Well Myles, you kind of beat me to the punch with this, as I 'was' planning on doing a
big
post to the EVDL all about OEVA's big shindig, just not tonight, as I am now doing. We
have all been seeing one another in person, talking on the phone, or emailing each
other
the past week, just about every day, as we are indeed, in the final stage of setting in
stone the date, time, and place for this year's 'EV Awareness Day'. It's the last item,
the place, that we are still working out the final details on, that's kept me from
making
the big announcement...should have it finalized tomorrow, Wednesday. We all felt we
should
wait a day or two longer to make sure we had the new location locked-in before saying
anything.
In any EVent, let it suffice for now, that YES, we are going to have our annual BIG EV
show here in Portland, 'EV Awareness Day', July 26th on Saturday. We are also repeating
our copy cat after-the-show barbecue (we ripped this idea off from our good Canadian
friends), and all out-of town EVers attending with an EV or hybrid entry to display,
will
have their dinner on us. After the show, as we did last year, we'll all migrate east
from
the downtown core to my neck of the woods in east Portland's Gateway District over to
the
Village Inn restaurant for a specially prepared barbecue dinner, and an extra mini EV
show
in the parking lot...tunes for the street dance provided by my Insight's 700 watt
competition audio system! OK, there's really not an official street dance thing, but
last
year, the manager of the restaurant, Rick Woodbury and his wife, and I think a few
others,
were in fact, dancing in the parking lot to the sounds of my son's funk band playing
through the system, lit up by Neon's 'neon'.
The location we are pretty sure we have, is even better than OMSI has been, at a
gorgeous
setting in downtown Portland referred to as 'Portland's Living room'. I'll post again
in
more detail, just as soon as I get confirmation that we have the location tied up. If
we
do get it, the crowds will be heavy, as this place is nestled right between the MAX
electric train tracks, as it is a major stop for it. Media coverage will the best ever
this year, too.
I've already started with my annual arm-twisting, and am lining up cool out-of-town EV
projects to have on display. I 'was' planning on cc'ing all the SEVA and VEVA members
with
a post before I went public with this, but Myles has forced my hand :-), so consider
this
a precursor arm twist!
I'm hopeful that we can get some more radical EVs to the show again, like Tango, Maniac
Mazda (come on Rod, you can put it on a trailer, even if it doesn't have batteries in
it),
the Silver Bullet Z Car, Rudman's oh-so-famous Goldie (it may not be beautiful, but
it's
always been a crowd pleaser for all the rubber it has shed over the years), Father
Time's
over-the top machines, etc.
I've already convinced Geoff Shepherd to haul down Neon's cool EV dun buggy...and I
haven't even asked Neon yet! It would be great to get some of Dave Cloud's cool
machines
here as well. It would be really cool, to have some of the cars from Vancouver BC here,
too!
Some pretty well known Portland EVs will be on hand....Gary Graunke's electric Insight
(maybe by then, it will have its LiON pack installed), Victor's ACRX (maybe by then, it
will have its LiON pack installed), Marko Mongillo's '59 Fiat 600 'Fiamp' with its new
edition Optima group 31's, Ralph Merwin's gorgeous Prism conversion (with a new battery
pack?), my own Blue Meanie and White Zombie Datsuns...and more...Sparrows, motorcycles,
pickups, sedans, tractors,
go karts, scooters....Portland is a pretty hip EV spot!
Stay tuned for the official announcement.....
See Ya.....John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gary, let me preface by saying I don't dispute any of
your testing, nor your conclusions.
I am curious however, how Sony can put LiIP batts.
in a minivan (the Altra), and get 140 mi. range. I'll
grant that it is a 340V or so package, but the current
draw must still be in excess of
VoltsRabbit 128V x 400A = 51 kW
Altra 51 kW / 350V = 146A from a dead stop. Yeah,
I'm comparing PbA vs. LiP, so it's not accurate b/c of
internal resistance of the batteries, but the fact
remains: the Li batts. I'm hearing about (FIVE YEARS
after Sony released theirs) are pretty cruddy compared
to what Sony has put out at an admittedly exorbitant
price.
Any explanations?
--- Gary Graunke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I have reached some conclusions after our initial
> LiIon excellent testing
> that Chris Brune has been doing on 4 TS-TLP90A LiIon
> cells.
>
> Our test results, equipment used, and procedures can
> be found on my website
> at http://ev.whitecape.org/lion .
> The summary, which gives a description of each test,
> is at
> LiIonSummary6-22-03.pdf . There are other documents
> showing the equipment
> used. The raw data is in excel spreadsheets, and the
> graphs are in pdf
> files.
>
> We think that the cells heat up far too fast when
> drawing currents over 30A.
> At 80A, the rise in temperature as measured
> externally (inside is hotter) is
> about 1 degree C every 6 seconds. In addition, it
> seems very hard to cool
> them effectively.
>
> The heat also appears to shorten cell lifetime, and
> we are seeing
> preliminary signs of a decrease in capacity.
>
> On the brighter side, they still are a very
> effective energy source for
> their weight.
>
> Our current focus is to look at using them as part
> of a hybrid battery pack,
> and we'll be doing some experiments that emulate
> that usage model. We'll be
> simulating alternating driving and resting (cooling
> off) periods, or a usage
> model of going somewhere, stopping for time, and
> returning. We want to see
> how long it takes them to get to a stable (and
> acceptable) heat level.
>
> For my own Insight project, I plan to use 20 16AH
> Hawker batteries for the
> power pack that is directly driving the motor. These
> will weigh 280 lbs, and
> fill the gas tank cavity battery box. The Hawkers
> are proven to take extreme
> power abuse by the drag racing set, and can put out
> 10 times the current
> necessary to climb the steepest, longest freeway
> grade in Portland at the
> speed limit for the 240V power pack.
>
> Recharging them at a constant rate of 20A is easily
> possible with a
> DC-capable PFC 20 charger (I'll be getting my PFC50
> modified to be DC
> capable). For all but freeway driving, this would
> put a sustainable load on
> the 56 TLP90A LiIon cells. With some additional
> battery boxes so I can go to
> 94 cells, I will probably be able to even do
> continuous highway driving.
> The new tests will tell.
>
> Using preliminary efficiency numbers for the
> Insight, stop and go traffic
> (the way I drive) would draw 13 (94 cells) to 22 (56
> cells) amps. Steady
> highway driving at 55 mph would use 35 (94 cells) to
> 54 (56 cells) amps
> (probably need 90+ cells to be viable). Steady 45
> mph driving would draw a
> steady 15.3 (94 cells) to 20.3 (56 cells) amps--very
> easy on the cells.
>
> Oddly enough, with 94 TLP90A LiIon cells, and the 20
> 16AH Hawkers, the
> weight of the batteries would be exactly 30% of the
> total vehicle weight,
> following a traditional rule of thumb. And I
> actually like putting the
> heavier Hawkers in the middle of the vehicle down
> low. The total weight will
> still be a fairly light 2300 lbs--still lighter than
> it would be with a pure
> NiCd, NiZn pack.
>
> Of course, the PFC can still be used as a charger
> for the LiIon pack with
> some additional wiring and contactors, saving any
> extra weight needed for
> the DC-DC for the hybrid pack.
>
> To some, it may be disappointing that one cannot
> just use a LiIon pack
> directly.
>
> However, I feel that the hybrid pack approach is a
> much better approach,
> even if a bit more complicated. There is no question
> that the Hawker's can
> handle the power requirements of climbing and
> acceleration. There is also no
> question that the high energy, but low power, LiIon
> pack will have its
> lifetime as well as its safety optimized.
>
> Hybrid packs may make sense as well for NiCd and
> NiZn packs.
>
> Cheers!
> Gary
>
=====
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
(in progress)! ____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel? Are you
saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 9:20 PM -0700 6/24/03, Joe Smalley wrote:
2. Wound field motors (series) have back EMF rated in "Ohms per RPM". As the
RPM goes up, the motor resistance goes up causing it to draw less current
than at lower RPM. This is commonly called back EMF but is not the same as
in the case above. You cannot get this type of motor to regen without
switching the field from series to some sort of external excitation and take
the regen energy from the brushes without the series field in the circuit.
While this certainly may be true for a series motor in motoring mode
(I really don't know) I'm sure it does not apply to the regen mode
which involves reversing either the field or armature for a given
direction.
I've done a lot with series regen in the past, and I wrote up a story
about my first experiments for Home Power Magazine many years ago.
You can read a copy of it on my web site, just follow the "Curtis
Stuff" link and then the "Regen Article" link.
Who knows? Maybe it will help clear things up a bit.
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> > Cool, can I get a Job? Oh yeah, they aren't looking for Techs and
> > Engineers yet, just marketing folks.
> >
>
> I don't know. Can you do the work? Have you designed, from scratch, a
> mutli-power sourced automotive drive system?
>From Scratch? Nope, all my designs have been based on working components
and subsystems.
> This isn't trivial and it
> involved a lot more than just assembling existing parts. I don't know the
> people on this list. I wouldn't be surprised that someone has the relevant
> skills. Maybe you do Peter.
Probably not (me).
> I was trying to start a realistic discussion of the reasonable costs
> involved. If we never get past sarcasm then I guess that isn't going to
> work.
FWIW There have been many really good ideas discussed on this list on
how to build/standardize EV related projects. Very few ever actually
get built. Too much discussion and not enough building.
That's my main beef here. CalCars has a great idea, one that has been
discussed on this list numerous times. They have access to proven
designs. They've been around for what a year now? What actual work
have they done toward actually building vehicles?
I'm concerned because it appears (to me) that they are spending all of
their time and money on raising more money and not working on designs.
I'll admit, however, that I know nothing about running a business like
this.
I do know that I will probably have my HEV 40 running in the next 6
months. It's no where near as sophisticated as what they (probably)
will build, but then I'm doing it for about 10% of the cost that they
are talking about.
>
> If you have a better estimate, even better if it is based on some real-life
> experience I'd love to read it.
Late model RAV4 AWD $15,000
Siemens AC drive system
plus cables, etc. $10,000
700 lbs of NiCads $10,000(?)
Geo Metro Engine/tranny $ 5,000
Misc, adapters, parts $10,000
Chargers, computers, etc $10,000
pay me for 6 months work $40,000 (wink, wink)
Total $100,000
Hook the AC drive to rear wheels via a 6 or 7:1 reduction (preferably
transverse mounted to avoid hypoid gears)
Hook the Metro engine to the front wheels. Add a 240V generator head to
the engine, with an electric clutch, for series hybrid operation.
Range in EV mode would be 40+ miles
I have, of course, padded my estimates. Plus you can get a thousand or
so back for selling off the RAV4 ICE.
p.s. My personal preference would be to use something like a VW indirect
injection diesel engine modified to run on straight vegetable oil, which
is recycled from fast food joints, etc. Much lower emissions, no
greenhouse gas issues, no wasting of precious dead dinosaurs.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gotta love those over-unity designs
I had one in my truck for a while, but I kept having to stop and hook my
truck up to the AC lines to drain my batteries.
On Tue, 2003-06-24 at 18:26, Aubrey Wilder wrote:
> EVers,
>
> I attended the Electric Vehicle Association of Southern California meeting
> on Saturday in Diamond Bar, California and thought I'd pass along some
> interesting stuff from the meeting.
>
> We had a guest speaker there named Robert Sharp of Trinity Motors. He said
> that his company had created a new kind of motor for EV type uses that will
> recharge the batteries as you drive. He said that it could at least double
> and possibly quadruple the current range of EVs.
>
> Now, before this becomes an intense discussion of how impossible this is,
> like it did at the meeting, please understand that I know nothing about
> this, I'm just passing on the info. I'm not an engineer and didn't
> understand it much. However, he did have a working model and passed out a
> brochure. For more info, see http://www.trinitymotors.net/
>
> Aubrey
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
EVDL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<I have toyed with the idea of using a front
wheel drive car and putting an EV setup on the back wheels . Could use a
tranny from another (same model) car and mount it in the back to drive the
back wheels . I'm thinking This would be an ac drive with regen . So the gas
end of the car is done and working ( as well as before), and the back end of
the car is a regular EV conversion. I know it would get worse gas mileage ,
with the added weight , You'd be using an old gas engine and when driving on
electric you'd be pulling it around also so it wouldn't get the distance
that a BEV dose. The main reason I even think about this is that I get asked
about it often so you may have something the gas burning public thinks they
want. I think that the extra weight would make this a loser compared to all
electric or all gas but It could be 4 wheel drive and have some power if you
ran both at the same time and isn't that really what people want.Plug it in
and gas it up ! I can see kids putting the front in drive and back in
reverse and smoking the tires while standing still they'll love it, what's
your Idea?>>
My idea is just like what you are describing, except the oil burner
is in the rear and I hope to have it run on grease.
I have a Stretched Vanagon, where the front half is from a 4WD
"Syncro" version. It's running on pure gasoline at the moment. I also
have a nice EV-1 motor and gearbox just waiting to drop in where the
front diff now is. What I'm still missing are the batteries, charger,
time to redesign the controller and time to put it all together. I
guess I had planned it this way since the early 90s.
Details of it here: http://www.EVCL.com/vw/
Ah yes, so many plans, so little time....
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<Hook the AC drive to rear wheels via a 6 or 7:1 reduction (preferably
transverse mounted to avoid hypoid gears)
Hook the Metro engine to the front wheels. Add a 240V generator head to
the engine, with an electric clutch, for series hybrid operation.
Range in EV mode would be 40+ miles
I have, of course, padded my estimates. Plus you can get a thousand or
so back for selling off the RAV4 ICE>>
I'm lazy, so I'd do an even simpler hybrid with my RAV4: leave the original
ICE and fwd, disconnect the drive shaft to the rear, attach a small electric
drive here, and load battery packs between the wheels on either side.
Leaving the tranny in neutral allows electric drive, putting in gear or
pushing the clutch turns it off. Since this would only be for lower speeds,
an E-tek motor, 4-quadrant drive from 4QD (300A*48V), and 4 of the largest
Hawkers would be enough for in-town use. The OEM uses a viscous coupling for
4WD, which you could put between the PM motor and the rear diff, eliminating
drag when used as an ICE, but allow regen braking whenever the brakes are
engaged.
You might even get away with making the alternator run at 48V and feed the
car's 12V off a dc-to-dc converter, but then I'd be overthinking.
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So that's where Tilley ran off to!
> We had a guest speaker there named Robert Sharp of Trinity Motors. He said
> that his company had created a new kind of motor for EV type uses that
will
> recharge the batteries as you drive. He said that it could at least double
> and possibly quadruple the current range of EVs.
>
Even if you had a motor that ran at 100% efficiency, you'd only go 1/4 to
1/2 again farther. How did Mr Sharp explain these claims? Did the name
"Trinity" come from some biblical ideation, because religion seems to crop
up a lot around over-unity types.
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<<I have a Stretched Vanagon, where the front half is from a 4WD
"Syncro" version. It's running on pure gasoline at the moment. I also
have a nice EV-1 motor and gearbox just waiting to drop in where the
front diff now is. What I'm still missing are the batteries, charger,
time to redesign the controller and time to put it all together. I
guess I had planned it this way since the early 90s.>>
...your zipper has been showing for a while, and is Cat-Dog even on the air
anymore?
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<<...how Sony can put LiIP batts.
in a minivan (the Altra), and get 140 mi. range. I'll
grant that it is a 340V or so package, but the current
draw must still be in excess of
VoltsRabbit 128V x 400A = 51 kW
Altra 51 kW / 350V = 146A from a dead stop. Yeah,
I'm comparing PbA vs. LiP, so it's not accurate b/c of
internal resistance of the batteries, but the fact
remains: the Li batts. I'm hearing about (FIVE YEARS
after Sony released theirs) are pretty cruddy compared
to what Sony has put out at an admittedly exorbitant
price.
Any explanations?>>
Maybe expensive Japanese-made Li cells are just better than cheap
Chinese-made ones?
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Gary, let me preface by saying I don't dispute any of
your testing, nor your conclusions.
I am curious however, how Sony can put LiIP batts.
in a minivan (the Altra), and get 140 mi. range. I'll
grant that it is a 340V or so package, but the current
draw must still be in excess of
VoltsRabbit 128V x 400A = 51 kW
Altra 51 kW / 350V = 146A from a dead stop. Yeah,
I'm comparing PbA vs. LiP, so it's not accurate b/c of
internal resistance of the batteries, but the fact
remains: the Li batts. I'm hearing about (FIVE YEARS
after Sony released theirs) are pretty cruddy compared
to what Sony has put out at an admittedly exorbitant
price.
Any explanations?
Ok, I'm not Gary, but I have a simple explanation:
Batteries can be optimized in many ways. Those were different batteries.
Saft was prototyping three sizes of lithium batteries some years ago.
I looked at the specs but don't remember them. (actually I think I
have them buried somewhere deep in my computer) They had three power
densities and three respective energy densities. As I remember it the
HEV batteries stored about the same amount of kwh/kg (energy) as lead
batteries but were more powerful (kw/kg) than the best lead batteries
that we were racing at the time. On the other end of the scale the
BEV batteries had about the power density of a medium power lead
battery but the energy density was several times that of lead.
I'm sure some battery experts could describe it better, but it is a
common effect seen in ni-cads (aircraft starters vs. saft flooded EV
cells) and Lead acid as well (Optima vs. Golf car)
I think what we have here with the Thundersky batteries is the Golf
car version of lithium, which is excellent for 300+ mile range EV.
But not ideal for a light short range one.
hth
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
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Lee Hart wrote:
>
> Hi, Russ. Good to hear from you!
>
> Could you provide a more objective description of it, and how it works?
> I'm an engineer, and will understand perfectly well if you say it uses a
> "phase controlled full bridge rectifer with 2-pole LC filter", for
> example.
> --
Well, Lee, I gotta hand it to 'ya. You're the one that got me started
on the Russco Charger. And it was on this List, too. So, good things
do happen!
You were describing using inductors and capacitors with a full wave
bridge to improve power factor and provide proper coupling for various
battery pack voltages. And hence the story begins....
Start with a so-called Bad Boy Charger. I believe good 'ol John
Wayland named this dude. Take 120 VAC, feed it into a full wave bridge
to rectify to DC and send the DC to the batteries. Nice and simple,
but works best for 120 volt battery packs. Packs of 132 volts will
charge at a very low current and packs of 108 volts will hog way too
much current. A boost transformer is needed for the over 120 volt
packs and a buck transformer is needed for under 120 volt packs. But it
works well enough, regulation is through exact matching of the AC to DC
voltage and power factor is poor.
If an inductor is placed in series with the AC input, the inductive
reactance at 60 hz will lower the charging current to a low level of an
amp or two, good for finishing current. If an AC bathtub type capacitor
is next placed in parallel or across the input to the full wave bridge,
the charging current will be high, in the order of twenty amps,
depending the capacitor value. A few mfd. may produce a current of 5
amps, a 20 mfd., 10 amps, etc. So if the capacitor value were varied
automatically and electronically, the charging current could be
controlled. The power factor would also improve, being in the 0.9
range. And that's the basis of the Russco charger.
The coupling of the one only capacitor is through a bi-polarity phase
controlled rectifier-yes, indeed, a TRIAC in series with the capacitor.
But unlike the light dimmer chargers, this triac is placed in series
with the capacitor, the combination which is shunted to the full wave
bridge. So called "light dimmer" chargers place a much larger triac in
series with the input. That's what makes the Russco charger so
different from the "other" triac battery charger.
Now, the charger gets two orders of magnitude more complex (100X). An
electronic circuit board consisting of an analog voltage regulator,
current regulator, and firing circuit trigger the triac through an opto.
Other circuitry senses current and starts the shut off timer at the
proper time, which turns off the charger after the elapsed time.
Add in the safeties such as the NEC required GFCI, an inlet circuit
breaker, outlet fuse, power on indicator, current and voltage controls,
lots of misc. components, a bunch of teflon wire and place in a bright
red steel enclosure with 30 CFM fan cooling.
Pretty basic, just the ticket for the List person that has the smarts to
set the constant current and voltage of their charger. Perhaps some
older charger use this technique, but I'm not aware of any.
And that's the rest of the story.
Russ Kaufmann, Owner, dba
Russco Electro Mechanical Engineering Since 1976
Manufacturers of EV Battery Chargers
Past Manufacturers of EV Controllers and Hydronic Heaters
EAA Santa Clara Rally 127 miles on one charge
EAA Fellow Award 1993
1800 watt grid tied photovoltaic system on site
(707)542-4151 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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At 11:07 PM 06/24/2003 -0500, you wrote:
Even better, don't turn the
charge on until midnight, after the microwaves, TV sets, and Nintendo games
are turned off (and the A/C load drops in South Texas). I welcome your
feedback to all this. Thanks, Mark T.
I was thinking of a timed outlet - a simple light timer set to be on 9pm
until 7am, would that be a good idea for car charging? then you plug in
anytime but only charge off-peak. Not sure what amperage they can handle
though.
brad
Brad Waddell ** FLEXquarters.com LLC ** voice-mail/fax: 602-532-7019
Postal: 6965 El Camino Real Ste 105 #488 Carlsbad CA 92009 USA
QODBC Driver for Quickbooks - Unleash your data at www.qodbc.com
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I have seen gears sets from $65 to $90 on ebay and some racer sites.
http://www.race-cars.com/partbd/messages/7831.htm
Hewland and EMCO and Taylor.
http://www.taylor-race.com/subcat1.cfm?category=Transmissions
At the moment I am looking purely at cheap used stuff. I work in a
machine shop and a plastic molder, casting a transmission case is not
difficult as long as you get the design nailed down the first time. You
make a wood pattern oversized by 112 to 120%. we have at least 4
foundries in my area for alum, bronse and cast. Take the rear uprights
for example on the independent rear suspension, I could buy corvette for
$500 each or just go to the wrecking yard and grab a pair of front wheel
drive hubs of a buick or pontiac. Essentially the same thing for this
application. standard brake calipers complete with speed encoders and
will accept common half shafts.
Yup, love tinkering, can't stop. want to learn.
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Not sure how much of this is true. Here are a couple of URL's.
Many of them run on natural gas, which is even being
imported from overseas rather than piped in.
I think they want to but it is expensive.
But most EVs recharge at night, when there's aboundant extra power in the
grid. The grid has no storage capabilities, but the power plants cannot be
scaled back very far during the nighttimes and ramped back up during the
day, so there's excess power being wasted to radiation (from the overhead
transmission lines) if there's no users for this power. That's where EVs
come in.
Powerplants can infinately scale back to meet demand. Wasted energy. I
don't think so. Hydro in California meets all the nightly needs of the
grid. This might be what you are thinking of. Can't save Hydro. Water can
be diverted though. If too much power is put to the grid I think bad things
will happen. Production and use must match. If there is too much demand
you have a brown out. I have no idea what the opposite condition would be
and if I would want to be around any power lines while it was happening. I
think power is lost but not from overproduction. Lawrence Rhodes.....
http://www.aapg.org/divisions/dpa/testimonies/2001/010315_house_mwd.pdf
http://www.dnv.com/publications/oilgas_news/by_subject/General/USdriveforcle
anerfuel.asp
http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20030611-093254-1304r.htm
http://62.23.130.156/swim/files/us/GB0008762899_01_BG_Group_Annual_Report_20
01_2.68_Mo.pdf
----------------------------------------------------
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Rod Hower wrote:
<snip>
<Giovanni also said they plan on crushing lots
of Epic vans in AZ soon. Hopefully I can find
a way to salvage at least one?>
Should not be too big a problem if you can get the info on who is in charge
of crushing them and when. Then its just a matter of having a friend in AZ
that can help coordinate things. Did I ever mention that I live in PHX ?
Also, I worked for Parker Hannifin as an outside consultant to Chrysler at
the CAPG back in the late 80s. Some of the guys there might even remember
me. I drove a mint '66 Imperial to work there every day, caused quite a
ruckus. Regards, David Chapman.
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Joe Smalley wrote:
> 2. Wound field motors (series) have back EMF rated in "Ohms per RPM".
> As the RPM goes up, the motor resistance goes up causing it to draw
> less current than at lower RPM. This is commonly called back EMF but
> is not the same as in the case above. You cannot get this type of motor
> to regen without switching the field from series to some sort of external
> excitation and take the regen energy from the brushes without the series
> field in the circuit.
You can get the motor to regen with the field in series, in fact that's how it usually
is done.
To drive the field seperately you would need an extra controller, which would be
driving an awkward low impeadance load. You would also have removed a lot of
inductance from the armature circuit, making the boost circuit more difficult.
When Otmar did his regen experiments he used just two contactors in the motor circuit.
This resulted in the magnetic field in the armature being reversed when switching from
drive to regen and collapsing the remaining magnetism in the field. He therefore had
to use a field 'tickler' to start the motor generating. Since the field is still in
series with the armature, once started the field is self sustaining. The controller is
then used in a current control mode to regulate the generated current since the series
motor is inherently unstable as a generator on its own.
Zapi use a single pole changeover contactor to switch from buck to boost and a pair of
single pole changeover contactors in standard forward/reverse configuration to reverse
the armature connection (also provides electrical reverse). No external field
excitation is needed, because there is enough hysteresis in the iron to ensure self
excitation. The Brusa PM controllers operate in a variable current mode in the first
place (rather than variable voltage, current limited, as in most controllers familiar
to list members) so they are well suited to regen. You can use just a single, double
pole changeover contactor (contacts on both ends of the coil) to both reverse the
armature and convert from buck to boost. Just such an arrangement is used on Cedric's
motorcycle (pictures on my site). The Brusa PM controller can also be used with series
motors.
Paul Compton
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
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Well so far I have gotten some ideas of how I am going to lay out the
components on my Auto Cycler, but I have not had much luck finding a DC
Ammeter that reads 100-0-100 amps, IE swings both ways. Although I have
tenatively figured out a way to use a single swing meter by using 2 shunts
and 4 diodes, I am trying to keep things simple by using one shunt in the B+
lead. Any ideas or sources for reasonably priced meters? I could use a
matching DC volt meter that reads 0-30 V as well. I have tried searching my
usual online salvage and surplus sources with little success. Regards, David
Chapman.
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