EV Digest 2884
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Questions about Russco Chargers
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Tilley and his Delorean
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) anyone have 50ah or 90ah thunder sky batts???
by "sae" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Tilley and his Delorean
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5) Reverse switch. Was: Mike the Menace strikes again
by Michael Hoskinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Windmill hood ornament
by Gordon Niessen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Mike the Menace strikes again
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Electric Rickshaw?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Equalizing question
by Michael Hoskinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Windmill hood ornament
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Battery Life vs Temp. was: straight cut gears....
by John Bryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Battery Cycler project
by "Richard Furniss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Mike the Menace strikes again
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Equalizing question
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
15) Re: Plug-in hybrid range/kit cars/solar on car roof
by Ryan Fulcher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Movie
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: I'm Looking for a 36 Volt Charger
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Waking to the sweet smell of sulfur
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) ebay EVs: nEVs, Forces, conversions, Escooters
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Power supply currents, was Re: Battery Cycler project
by "The Levine Family" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Tilley and his Delorean
by Lesley Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Battery Life vs Temp. was: straight cut gears....
by "evranger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Tilley and his Delorean/OT
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
We can discuss this but the fact is that UL will not approve non-isolated
battery chargers. This was when I was working with them in the mid 90's
establishing EV safety requirements. see comments below:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 10:58 AM
Subject: Re: Questions about Russco Chargers
> Ok, I think you folks might be acting a bit like chicken little.
> Perfect safety is impossible to achieve, EVERYTHING can hurt you or kill
> you under the right circumstances.
> That's why there is risk analysis, at some point additional safety costs
> more than it's worth.
>
> Any way, isolation is nice, but in order for someone to die by
> electrocution from a non-isolated charger a NUMBER of things must go
> wrong simultaneously.
>
> 1) the GFI must fail.
You can still get a nasty shock while the GFI trips and as David pointed out
if not tested monthly they can stick and most trip above the 5ma rating. The
dead cat under the hood was from an operating GFI.
> 2) you need a low resistance short from the pack to the body/frame.
> 3) the ground connection to the body/frame must fail (I ground the body
> of my truck, don't you?)
That's the problem is leaning against the frame and touching a battery post
or connection point.
> 4) the body/frame needs to have exposed metal (it's been my experience
> that painted surfaces don't conduct enough to even notice)
There is plenty of grounded chrome, bolts etc to lean against while working
under the hood or veiwing at a show.
> 5) the person touching needs to be barefoot and standing on a well
> grounded surface.
Not true
> 6) the person touching must be soaking wet, or something, to lower their
> personal resistance for enough current to flow.
This does make it worse
>
> Isolation just adds one more thing that must fail (and sometimes does)
Lester has been making isolated ferro-resonant chargers for eons that are
reliable as a rock.
>
> I've been sitting here racking my brains and I can't recall the last
> time I heard about someone dieing from electrocution by household
> current. I don't know anyone personally who has, I've never read about
> it in the paper, or seen it on TV.
This is not statistical analysis.
> I have seen(on TV) a guy get drunk, climb a telephone pole, short out a
> high tension wire(big flash), fall 20 feet to the ground....and live.
>
> I think you folks might be a might bit paranoid here.
>
> On Fri, 2003-06-27 at 05:58, Mark Hanson wrote:
> > Excellent post, well said. The key point of someone getting electrocuted
by
> > non-isolated chargers and legislating out homebuilt EV's should be
heeded by
> > all.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Remember all the stories about Tilley and his free-energy Delorean?
Well, the Tennessee Dept of Commerce just seized all his assets....
(something about mis-representing his invention to stock holders..
oh my.)
But, but, but, Tilley's a genius! He's the greatest thinker since
Einstein! They /can't/ take his invention away! It's gotta be that
conspiracy he was worried about. Yeah! That's it! They can't handle
the threat he poses to the status quo. </sarcasm>
Or maybe he's a swindling bastard who butchered a Delorean and
screwed a lot of people.
Hmm, I wonder which one of the above passes the BS smell-test more
easily? (rhetorical question)
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in
sort of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand
naked women screaming and throwing little pickles
at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
- Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Our solar car team is in a bit of a bind, and I'm hoping one of you can help
out. They ordered 15 of the 90 ah batteries from thunder sky to put in the
car, but have just discovered that they can't be shipped due to SARS. I
don't buy it, but thats what the company said. They go to race in about 2
weeks and really need 13-15 battereis. Does anyoe have any that they would
be willing to sell/loan/rent? They don't have many options at this point.
Please contact tom off list if you think you think you can help.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Paul
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wonder if someone could aquire his EV Delorean and make it really work. That
would be a nice project - without the free-energy componients, of course.
-Ed T
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Hurley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 8:46 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Tilley and his Delorean
>Remember all the stories about Tilley and his free-energy Delorean?
>Well, the Tennessee Dept of Commerce just seized all his assets....
>(something about mis-representing his invention to stock holders..
>oh my.)
But, but, but, Tilley's a genius! He's the greatest thinker since
Einstein! They /can't/ take his invention away! It's gotta be that
conspiracy he was worried about. Yeah! That's it! They can't handle
the threat he poses to the status quo. </sarcasm>
Or maybe he's a swindling bastard who butchered a Delorean and
screwed a lot of people.
Hmm, I wonder which one of the above passes the BS smell-test more
easily? (rhetorical question)
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in
sort of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand
naked women screaming and throwing little pickles
at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
- Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Randy says that when the Zapi guy was visiting CEV he drove the
Might-E truck with the throttle on all the time, just shifting
into reverse when he wanted to slow down, then back into forward
to zoom off again. I figure that this concept must have been
natural for the crazy Italian drivers who designed it. :) (no
disrespect intended).
I got an email from Bill Hamm of Zapi. He said that the in the
sem-3 sepex controller, if the enable signal is absent, then
'throttle off' regen takes precedence over inversion and brake
pedal regen. Regen levels are programmable 0-9 for each of the
three. But if the enable signal is not active, you only get
throttle off regen.
So it looks like I'll have to include the enable signal in my
brake pedal and shifter switches.
Of course, I'll need a new controller before I can try this,
having made the Star Trek diagnosis on the previous one (He's
dead, Jim).
Mike Hoskinson
Edmonton
David Roden (Akron OH USA) wrote:
On 26 Jun 2003 at 16:29, Michael Hoskinson wrote:
I figured we'd keep
everything else constant except "inversion regen" which happens
when you flip the forward/reverse switch into reverse while
cruising down the highway.
Yipe! Is it really supposed to do that? I can't imagine anyone ever
switching to reverse while motoring forward, except by sheer carelessness or
in an emergency.
I believe if that happens to my Brusa, the controller just shuts down, but
I'm not about to try it deliberately.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 03:37 AM 6/27/2003, you wrote:
But from this foolishness come the one device that would
put electric car's in the minds and harts of everyone. The wind mill Hood
Ornament. With its spinning magnets and flashing leds , . this I have
discovered about the little HO which can be make from a VCR head .
People have been saving old broken VCR's just for me. They are so happy
that I've finely come and got them.
Steve Clunn
Are you going to make and sell these? Or publish the plans?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have noticed when freewheeling in gear and going the opposite direction
with a Curtis controller my car will hit about 3mph and then stop dead. How
much damage does this do to the controller? Lawrence Rhodes.....
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 11:48 PM
Subject: Re: Mike the Menace strikes again
> Look in the archives. It has been reported in the past. One story told of
a
> guy backing out of his garage down the sloped driveway into the street and
> throwing the electrical reverse lever into forward before the car stopped
> rolling.
>
> Series motors really bite hard when that first PWM pulse hits them and the
> regen current skyrockets through the free wheel diodes.
>
> The rest of the story is fuzzy in my mind but I think it involved
replacing
> some U joints.
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 10:06 PM
> Subject: Re: Mike the Menace strikes again
>
>
> > On 26 Jun 2003 at 16:29, Michael Hoskinson wrote:
> >
> > > I figured we'd keep
> > > everything else constant except "inversion regen" which happens
> > > when you flip the forward/reverse switch into reverse while
> > > cruising down the highway.
> >
> > Yipe! Is it really supposed to do that? I can't imagine anyone ever
> > switching to reverse while motoring forward, except by sheer
carelessness
> or
> > in an emergency.
> >
> > I believe if that happens to my Brusa, the controller just shuts down,
but
> > I'm not about to try it deliberately.
> >
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
> > switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> > 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> > 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> > 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> > 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
> > thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.roleximpex.com/rolex-impex-auto-rickshaw2.html Lawrence
Rhodes.......
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have 5 or 6 cycles on my 96 volt US 250-HC pack, mostly 50 Ah
cycles, one cycle of about 80 Ah. The 20 hr rating of these 6
volters is 275 Ah. I've been charging them to a pack voltage of
116. Last night I turned the voltage limit of the PFC-50 one
full turn up, and the current down to 2.2 amps for 4 hours, then
down to 1.6 amps overnight.
This morning still on 1.6 amps, pack voltage is 121.
The two lowest batteries measure 7.51 and 7.54.
12 of them are between 7.56 and 7.63.
The highest two are 7.65 and 7.66.
All are bubbling. On a scale of 1-5, where 1 is barely
detectable bubbles and 5 is a geyser, the bubbling rate is a 2 or 3.
What should I do now? How equal should they be?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Mike Hoskinson
Edmonton
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve,
Why don't you put some solar cells under the spinning
LED's to help charge the batteries?
This will surely increase your efficiency.
Rod
--- Gordon Niessen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At 03:37 AM 6/27/2003, you wrote:
> >But from this foolishness come the one device that
> would
> >put electric car's in the minds and harts of
> everyone. The wind mill Hood
> >Ornament. With its spinning magnets and flashing
> leds , . this I have
> >discovered about the little HO which can be make
> from a VCR head .
> >People have been saving old broken VCR's just for
> me. They are so happy
> >that I've finely come and got them.
> >
> >Steve Clunn
>
> Are you going to make and sell these? Or publish
> the plans?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"David Roden (Akron OH USA)" wrote:
> My Force lived its first few years in Arizona as an APS vehicle. The
> average life of the first several battery packs was less than 9 months.
> Apparently heat was one of the major factors in their rapid demise.
I've always felt that operating in cooler climates has helped
to prevent aging of my almost 7 year old YTs. First in Boise, Idaho,
then Boulder, Colorado, then Bend, Oregon, and now Livingston Montana.
Through move after move, my trusty EV has been the only thing in my
life that I could truly depend on. Through thick and thin, rain, snow,
or shine, I've never had to do a thing to the feller except for plugging
and unplugging it, and bringing the tire pressure up about once a year.
Oh, and one other thing, I've had to register and license it
over and over and over....
The worst was Oregon, where they slam all EVs and Hybrids with double tax.
The best was Montana, where they don't even need to inspect an out of
state vehicle!
...John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for your help on this Joe, I'm sure other people will benefit from
this trick with the diode, that's one setup I didn't think of, this way you
don't have to shut off or turn on anything.
So a word of caution to battery cycler builders is make sure that you
properly charge the battery before you do a discharge test, like you and
other people on the list have been saying, voltage alone is a poor indicator
of SOC, you need to watch amps and temp also.
www.lasvegasev.com
Richard Furniss
Las Vegas, NV
1986 Mazda EX-7 192v
1981 Lectra Centauri 108v
3 Wheel Trail Master 12v
Board Member, www.lveva.org
Las Vegas Electric Vehicle Association
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 11:31 PM
Subject: Re: Battery Cycler project
> Comments inserted...
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Richard Furniss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "EV List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 10:29 AM
> Subject: Re: Battery Cycler project
>
>
> > Now you got my interest Joe, how you do that? the only thing I can
think
> of
> > is to run the first PS at 2.45v per cell with the current knob turned
all
> > the way up and the second PS set with voltage unlimited and the current
> knob
> > set to 10% of the capacity (run both PS at same time) and wait for the
> > voltage to stop rising, if this is what your talking about, great idea,
> but
> > what are the diodes for, I would think that the Sorensen PS are self
> > protected?
>
> Some of the Sorensen power supply have an "Active Pulldown" in them to
allow
> them to regulate at low load. There is a circuit in them that holds the
> voltage down to the programmed voltage with no load on them since some of
> the power stages won't hold regulation with no load on them. One of the
> Sorensen application notes discusses this and it's application in detail.
> The two diodes are to prevent this "active pulldown" from disrupting the
> current settings on the power supplies. Yes, you are right on this.
>
> The way to do it with one diode is to put the power supplies in series and
> put the diode across the lower current supply to prevent it from being
> reverse biased during bulk charge. The lower current power supply does not
> need to be as sophisticated as a Sorensen. It can be just a 4 amp TWC
(third
> world charger) and a resistor calibrated to put out the correct
equalization
> current.
>
>
> > This is what I saw when I tried to break in (cycle) a replacement
> Optima
> > for the car, the setup, 25 amp load resistor 500W with fan, a Rudman reg
> > with Lee Harts cycler modifications and a small automotive battery
charger
> > 20 amps, I stopped the automatic cycling after the fourth cycle because
> the
> > discharge time was decreasing at a steady rate, it became very clear
that
> a
> > dumb charger wasn't going to cut it, the voltage hit 14.7v before the
> > current dropped to 2 amps so the battery wasn't "full" when it switched
> over
> > to the discharge mode.
>
> Been there. Done that with the same results. Except I was using an emeter
> and PC controlled relays.
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hmm you've been lucky. Normally this blows the freewheel diodes in the
controller. Without the freewheel diodes, the next time you use the
controller, it blows the FETs.
On Fri, 2003-06-27 at 09:07, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> I have noticed when freewheeling in gear and going the opposite direction
> with a Curtis controller my car will hit about 3mph and then stop dead. How
> much damage does this do to the controller? Lawrence Rhodes.....
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> This mailbox protected from junk email by Matador
> from MailFrontier, Inc. http://info.mailfrontier.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 11:48 PM
> Subject: Re: Mike the Menace strikes again
>
>
> > Look in the archives. It has been reported in the past. One story told of
> a
> > guy backing out of his garage down the sloped driveway into the street and
> > throwing the electrical reverse lever into forward before the car stopped
> > rolling.
> >
> > Series motors really bite hard when that first PWM pulse hits them and the
> > regen current skyrockets through the free wheel diodes.
> >
> > The rest of the story is fuzzy in my mind but I think it involved
> replacing
> > some U joints.
> >
> > Joe Smalley
> > Rural Kitsap County WA
> > Fiesta 48 volts
> > NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 10:06 PM
> > Subject: Re: Mike the Menace strikes again
> >
> >
> > > On 26 Jun 2003 at 16:29, Michael Hoskinson wrote:
> > >
> > > > I figured we'd keep
> > > > everything else constant except "inversion regen" which happens
> > > > when you flip the forward/reverse switch into reverse while
> > > > cruising down the highway.
> > >
> > > Yipe! Is it really supposed to do that? I can't imagine anyone ever
> > > switching to reverse while motoring forward, except by sheer
> carelessness
> > or
> > > in an emergency.
> > >
> > > I believe if that happens to my Brusa, the controller just shuts down,
> but
> > > I'm not about to try it deliberately.
> > >
> > >
> > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > > Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
> > > switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
> > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > > David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> > > 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> > > 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> > > 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> > > 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > > Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
> > > thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
> > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > >
> >
>
--
EVDL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mike,
No two batteries are exactly alike.
There is tolerance from plate to plate, to amount of surface area, to
amount of electrolyte, etc. etc. etc.
I would not worry about the batteries all being equal as long as the
batteries are all above 7.35 simultaneously for normal full charge and
around 7.5+ for that equalizing charge. You only need to worry if one
battery either in the new pack or all of a sudden does not approach 7.35
or 7.5+ when the rest of them have past it by say .1 already. I had
one pack where some batteries were at 8.00 volts while the rest were
around 7.60 volts during equalizing and would not go any higher even if
individually charged. There are still 12 of these 18 batteries in use
today after 15 years. I mistakenly let 6 of them freeze one winter
while sitting in my Electrak. The other 12 are still in use in my
Windmill / PV battery storage compartment. They are Trojan J250's.
I finished replacing my ten year old Trojan T145s with seven year old
EV137s from my unused ElectraVan (that needs a new controller installed
and front wheel bearings replaced) and took it for a spin today in 100 F
weather. The Bug ran up a hill at 25 to 30+ mph in second gear that
could barely get up at 15 mph in first gear with the older batteries :-).
I will probably try a new set of those US250HC next year when time and
money permit as I became unemployed June 16 from "a lack of work" since
all new commercial jet engine design work is being sent to INDIA and
military jet engine design work is scarce.
Menlo Park III,
Bill
On Fri, 27 Jun 2003 11:06:32 -0600 Michael Hoskinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
> I have 5 or 6 cycles on my 96 volt US 250-HC pack, mostly 50 Ah
> cycles, one cycle of about 80 Ah. The 20 hr rating of these 6
> volters is 275 Ah. I've been charging them to a pack voltage of
> 116. Last night I turned the voltage limit of the PFC-50 one
> full turn up, and the current down to 2.2 amps for 4 hours, then
> down to 1.6 amps overnight.
>
> This morning still on 1.6 amps, pack voltage is 121.
> The two lowest batteries measure 7.51 and 7.54.
> 12 of them are between 7.56 and 7.63.
> The highest two are 7.65 and 7.66.
>
> All are bubbling. On a scale of 1-5, where 1 is barely
> detectable bubbles and 5 is a geyser, the bubbling rate is a 2 or 3.
>
> What should I do now? How equal should they be?
>
> Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Mike Hoskinson
> Edmonton
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Felix Kramer wrote:
* I did want to clarify that in the world of PHEVs, they're generally
referred to as HEV20, HEV40, HEV60 -- meaning their all-electric range
before refueling. The higher the range, the more costly and the heavier
the vehicle. Well-to-wheel emissions, cost-competitiveness and other
numbers all vary (see the Electric Power Research Institute studies
cited on CalCars' resources page). We think it's likely that the first
CalCars prototypes will be HEV20-30. Our goal is to produce
demonstration vehicles that is all-electric for most drivers' daily
commutes, which are in the 20-25-mile range, according to US DOT research.
Humm, somthing to keep in mind, is that if you build a HEV30 it should
acutally have a 60 mile range when new. The car will only indicate a 30
mile range to keep DOD at 40% to 60%, extending the battery life. I
believe that this holds true for all battery chemistries. Like a good
EV'er with a 50 mile car tries to go no more than 30 on a regular basis.
This will maximize battery life, which is the largest re-occuring EV
maintainance cost/issue, obsticle. (until FlyWheels!, 99% RFC's)
Also people would think it was good stuff, when their HEV30 ran out of
gas in the middle of no where, and they then drove 30miles Electric,
and another 20miles with the EV (fuel guage?) at Empty. As opposed to
a HEV30 that only goes 28 miles. 24 miles in 2004 , 20 miles in '05,
14 miles in '06, and by 2007 needs new batteries at $k,xyz.
* We recognize that homologation issues, especially crash-testing and
California SMOG tests, are a complex issue. What is a "kit car" in the
U.S. is not always a simple issue, especially when we're talking about
conversions. If we do go that route, I would welcome guidance and
suggestions from people with relevant experience.
On a related topic, what NHTSA testing would be required if a major car
maker converted an existing vehicle is also not clear: one
manufacturer's engineer told me he thought abbreviated testing based on
how the weight, structural elements and center of gravity of the vehicle
had changed would mean a much quicker-than-usual process.
Crash! What a pain. Say, how about choosing a few good "base vehicles"
that are already on the road, and clean burning. Create and sell kits
to convert them into HEV's. Car Shops and mechanics that like the idea
would get on board to do conversions and maintainance. Sounds easier
than creating a whole new car. If you're just out to proove the point
that it can be done and there is demand, then this may be a better way
to approace the problem.
* I posted the link to the Australian project not because I was
proposing that as a realistic solution for CalCars -- among other
things, we have focused only on 4-5-passenger vehicles. I simply thought
people on the list would be interested in knowing about it and possibly
connecting to the group. (Of course, 5 solar miles for every 20 miles
driven daily, with the rest coming from the grid, doesn't look so bad.)
Mobil photo-voltic is probably not the way to go, unless you are in
outerspace, or a race across some desert. 5 miles in their case is
only 1 or 1.5 miles in your case. A much better argument is to still
use solar power, but to use it at your home. Not only would it help to
supplament your home power and ev charging. It also offers a bit of
independence and freedome on an individule household basis. 5 miles of
ev range or more could surely be realized by a medium to large home pv
array. 500wh/m is 2.5kWh for 5 miles. $5000 gets you 1000Watts of pv's.
Even if that's a non-tracking array, 2 to 3kWh should be easily realized
with such a setup.
50% rating for 6hrs a day is 3kWh. 50% of the time is 547kWh per year.
100% rating for 8hrs a day is 8kWh. 75% of the time is 2190kWh per year.
That's $9.14-$2.28 per kWh for the first year, Steep but $0/kWh after.
"Financed" over 20 years is $0.46-$0.11 per kWk, and $0/kWh thereafter.
* Finally, so far one person has emailed me indicating they'd be part of
a 200-person buying group for a $30-$40K prototype. I hope others are
thinking about it. The invitation won't be withdrawn!
Should you decide to create some HEV conversion kit, I'll take a dozzen!
If you can show me a prototype, or even some more detailed concept
designs I and others may bite. But it'll have to be a very good and
thouroughly thought out design to convince many of the "critics" and
experts here on this list.
We may be a very difficult croud to please,
but if you can then you are sure to succeed.
L8r
Ryan
Felix
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
Felix Kramer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Founder California Cars Initiative
http://www.calcars.org
PO Box 61222 Palo Alto, CA 94306
cell 650.520.5555 voice 650.599.9992
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
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The file is deleted.
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--- Begin Message ---
I have a 5 amp one that I picked up for $20. I added a fan to it and I seem
to have no problem running it at 10 amps for hours on end.
damon
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "ItalysBadBoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "EVlist"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: I'm Looking for a 36 Volt Charger
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 00:00:48 -0700
One thing you can do is get a small variac and a bridge. It can be used up
to 120v pack. You pay for as much variac as you need. I have seen them
surplus as low as 29 dollars for 5 amps. More amps more cost. Lawrence
Rhodes......
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This mailbox protected from junk email by Matador
from MailFrontier, Inc. http://info.mailfrontier.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "ItalysBadBoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVlist" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 3:52 PM
Subject: I'm Looking for a 36 Volt Charger
> Hello all,
>
> I am currently looking for a 36 volt 15 amps or
> less charger. I have 3 batteries, SLA, AGM,
> rated at 50 ah. The manufactor recommended
> charging at 15 amps or less. Being portable is
> not a factor, I would perfer used to save some
> dough, and I live in Southern California. You
> can contact me on or off the list.
>
> Thanks, Allan
>
> PS: If someone just happened to post a charger
> for sale on here, I did not see since I fell
> behind on my email.
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> =====
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public
relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." --- Richard P. Feynman
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Remember the following first rule of disinformation analysis: truth is
specific, lie is vague. Always look for palpable details in reporting and
if
the picture is not in focus, there must be reasons for it.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> __________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
OK,
I finally did it. The other night I went to bed and forgot that I had my
batteries on charge. It's a small pack and usually only takes about 60-90
minutes at 10amps to charge. Of course I remembered first thing when I woke
up the next morning and as I made my way downstairs I could smell the sweet
smell of sulfur wafting up from the garage. I had a chance today to take it
out for a test run and see what damage was done, and I was actually
surprised that the bike seemed to have nearly the same performance and range
as usual. It seems that one battery took the brunt of the damage.
Physically it is easy to see which one it is, as it bulged way out and was
venting when I came down and turned the charger off. After a good 4 mile
test run this battery was sitting at 11.75 while the rest of the pack came
in at between 12.4 and 12.7 volts resting. Suddenly that $30 timer I was
looking at at Home Depot the other day doesn't seem so expensive. Is it
normal for one battery to sacrifice itself for the rest of the pack, or did
I just get lucky?
damon
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--- Begin Message ---
ebay motors has a selection of EVs for sale
http://search.ebaymotors.com/search/search.dll?GetResult&SortProperty=MetaHighestPriceSort&query=electric&from=R8&ebaytag1=ebayreg&siteid=100&s_partnerid=2&categorymap=6000&category0=6000&combine=y&st=2
I am wondering if ebay motors isn't a better
forum for selling one's EV?
-visibility is very good
-you can put all the images and text needed
-and payment seems easy and secure
The EVs for sale are:
A Think nEV, plenty-o-gems, and a Bombardier nEV
Bombardier is still selling these for $8k?
There is Chuck's Jet Industries conversion
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2421031805
REASON FOR SALE: I have 3 EV's and my wife say's
something must go. I don't want it to be me :-)
There are a couple of low cost Solectria Force EVs
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2420842682
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2420847679
And for those that want to cut their teeth on a
starter EV, there are plenty-o-electric-scooters
below $150
http://search.ebaymotors.com/search/search.dll?GetResult&SortProperty=MetaLowestPriceSort&query=%22Electric+Scooter%22&from=R7&ebaytag1=ebayreg&siteid=100&ht=1&categorymap=6000&category0=6000&combine=y&st=2
But watch out for this $50 special
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2420944738
With the tacked on charges listed at the bottom
the $50 Escooter is really $130 and sold 'as-is'.
(I smell a rip-off)
Hmmm, maybe trying to sell your EV amounst
rip offs is the negative part of ebay.
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
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--- Begin Message ---
> The way to do it with one diode is to put the power supplies in series and
> put the diode across the lower current supply to prevent it from being
> reverse biased during bulk charge. The lower current power supply does not
> need to be as sophisticated as a Sorensen. It can be just a 4 amp TWC
(third
> world charger) and a resistor calibrated to put out the correct
equalization
> current.
If you put any 2 power supplies in series, is you current output then the
lesser of the 2?
A related question: What if you have them in parallel with 2 different
voltage ratings, does overall current into the battery(ies) drop once the
voltage output exceeds the lower one's output? E.g.- one puts out 57.6V at
20A and the other puts out 60.0V at 5A, so, from your starting point to
57.6V, you have 25A input...but how much current is going in from 57.7V to
60.0V?
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Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> Yeah and the answer was sooo simple, how did we miss it?
> Drive until the batteries are thoroughly dead (a pathetic 17 miles in
> this case) and then fake a mechanical failure.
Well..... I'm fairly sure I predicted a convenient mechanical failure.
Maybe I just had the thought and never mentioned it on the list.
--
Lesley Walker, Wellington, New Zealand
LRW at clear.net.nz
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/460.html
http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/lrw
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John,
I'm curious about how many total miles you have on your 7 year old YTs? On
my 3 year olds, the best I've seen is 15,000. Worst was 6,000.
Dave
>
>
> "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" wrote:
>
> > My Force lived its first few years in Arizona as an APS vehicle. The
> > average life of the first several battery packs was less than 9 months.
> > Apparently heat was one of the major factors in their rapid demise.
>
> I've always felt that operating in cooler climates has helped
> to prevent aging of my almost 7 year old YTs. First in Boise, Idaho,
> then Boulder, Colorado, then Bend, Oregon, and now Livingston Montana.
> Through move after move, my trusty EV has been the only thing in my
> life that I could truly depend on. Through thick and thin, rain, snow,
> or shine, I've never had to do a thing to the feller except for plugging
> and unplugging it, and bringing the tire pressure up about once a year.
>
> Oh, and one other thing, I've had to register and license it
> over and over and over....
>
> The worst was Oregon, where they slam all EVs and Hybrids with double tax.
> The best was Montana, where they don't even need to inspect an out of
> state vehicle!
>
> ...John
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--- Begin Message ---
I believe that Mr littlefield didn't know it was a scam , that's why he was
the perfect person to promote it as he really believed it .
2 points for Tilley / great scam and great way of promoting it
> Yeah and the answer was sooo simple, how did we miss it?
> Drive until the batteries are thoroughly dead (a pathetic 17 miles in this
case) and then fake a mechanical failure.
>
and after that hard run I'm sure the voltage was coming up fast with the
load then off. That's probable how he fooled Littlefield and got him wound
up. He had the reporter going, He pulled it off , fool most of them , I'll
bet he gets off .
There were some great post and I sat at my computer laughing till my wife
though I was nuts .
By the time I started saving them the best were gone. This was a turning
point for me and I no longer get upset by "gen on a wheel people" or GOW's
pronounced go-a-way and when I hear it now I break out in uncontrollable
laughter. I fight not to laugh and encourage them to go on , at some point
where the belt from the wheel meets the generator I make the biggest fool of
my self buy going into uncontrollable laughter . " Ya well others ha laughed
at me to and @@@@ " I have to now try to explain that it's not his idea I'm
laughing at but that I've been programmed by UFO's to do this .
Here's one I saved
> Mr. Littlefield Please calm down . The Tilley name is safe and I won't be
calling my hood ornament anything that
might bring your foundation shame . Although I think you are missing out and
when you see My hood ornament on the hood of every EV out there with My name
"The Clunn", well We may be eating crow together. I will not be marketing
them as free energy devices but as a device that actually SELL ELECTRIC CARS
something your device can only hope for. They will do this by GENERATING
INTEREST . I haven't done any testing yet but I really think I have
something here and have written Ford and told them not to pull the plug just
yet. My hood ornament could save them and sell there electric cars like hot
cakes. Your black box and my hood ornament ,may be the winning combo. On
the dash there would be a place to PLUG IN five 9 volt transistor batteries
which would be charged from the hood ornament. The car will actually CHARGE
THE BATTERIES WHILE DRIVING. We all know that's what people really want! The
only reason to plug it in will be to keep it from running away from the
house(ha ha just a little joke ) Just Th*nk of all the batteries in smoke
detectors and what not that will be saved . Ford's new slogan could be "Its
not a car its a battery charger"
Please feel free to put one on your car for the demo. What good will
your demo be if the battery in your volt meter dies after hours of driving.
We won't be able to tell if the batteries running the car are fully charged
if the meters dead.
How many people do you expect at your event. You could have the people
that come bring there old 9volt batteries and charge them while your driving
around . This would REALLY SHOW THEM . I'm just trying to help and after
reading this if you decide you want the Tilley name on the hood ornament
it's OK with me (but we will have to see what Ford says first) as I would
have never thought of it without you. If you need plans or any info on how
to make this work let me know. Subject: Re: Self-recharching/ethics
Steve:
You surely do NOT have our permission to do any such thing, I don't even
consider
that an interesting conversation piece...we are draw fire from all corners
and something
"gimmicky" would be a disaster. Do NOT, I repeat in the strongest terms...DO
NOT do
any such thing with any reference to us or the name Tilley, Tilly or any
other derivation
that would be intended to insinuate any relationship whatsoever !
Douglas C. Littlefield
>
> >
> > > Remember all the stories about Tilley and his free-energy Delorean?
> > > Well, the Tennessee Dept of Commerce just seized all his assets....
> > > (something about mis-representing his invention to stock holders.. oh
my.)
> >
> > I also remember that nobody came close to guessing how he was going to
do it
> > (drive 200 miles) . But from this foolishness come the one device that
would
> > put electric car's in the minds and harts of everyone. The wind mill
Hood
> > Ornament. With its spinning magnets and flashing leds , . this I have
> > discovered about the little HO which can be make from a VCR head .
> > People have been saving old broken VCR's just for me. They are so happy
> > that I've finely come and got them.
> >
> > Steve Clunn
> >
> >
> > > John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
> > > http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
> > >
> >
> --
> EVDL
>
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