EV Digest 2885
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Anybody dump charging ?
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Anybody dump charging ?
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: LiIon conclusions
by Ryan Fulcher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) EV Scooter advice
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5) Re: EV Scooter advice
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: LiIon conclusions
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: EV Scooter advice
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Windmill hood ornament
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Anybody dump charging ?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Ended auction
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Equalizing question
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Power supply currents, was Re: Battery Cycler project
by "Richard Furniss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: LiIon conclusions
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Meter damping
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Mike the Menace strikes again
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Power supply currents, was Re: Battery Cycler project
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: EV Scooter advice
by "BORTEL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: LiIon conclusions
by "Gary Graunke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Waking to the sweet smell of sulfur
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: EV Scooter advice
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Tilley and his Delorean
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Someone bought it?
by "The Levine Family" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Segway Spam
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Speaking of Segways
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Sunshine and Fast Electrons to Prevail on Sunday
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Anybody dump charging ?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
27) Re: Tilley and his Delorean/OT
by Michael Hoskinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I've used my PFC-20 to cycle my extra batteries , I have 27 golfcarters
sitting in the yard , I pump the amps out
of them ,and into one of my EV's . I don't have to worry about what the
voltage is /if it's higher or lower . While this is going on I check the
voltage on them and have arranged this line of batteries best to worst and
as they drop to about 11v I move one wire (the one on the weak end of the
line ) along the line so as not the beat up the weakest soldiers. While this
is going on I can also see on my e-meter how many amphours were pulled out
( buy
how many just when into the EV) .I Write that number on the batteries and I
pull them out of line (move the wire).
Charging them back is almost as easy ,I have a variable transformer with
bad
boy ( would that be a controlled bad boy )and do the same thing , charge
them all then pull out the week one's as they fill (readjusting the variable
transformer as i go ), the weakest one's will charge first. BPFC ( before
PFC
charger) I'd use the varible transformer with less or the same number of
batteries doing the dumping and just keep trunning the dial as the EV
charges.Using a 36v golf cart charger pluged in the variac I could get some
amps as much as the charger could put out
As time goes buy I am noticing that what excites me is changing , Dump
charging , fast charing , and thin tires, . The thrill of seeing 40 or 50
amps flowing into my pack . When there are no cars behind me and no cops
around I do some dangerest low speed driving (just to see how few amps I can
use ) and most of the time when I see a cop car behind me I speed up .
SteveClunn
---- Original Message -----
From: "Danny Ames
Subject: Anybody dump charging ?
> I may get a spare battery pack for dump charging.
> Added plus to store my excess energy generated from the solar array.
> Quick charging also very beneficial.
> Also its good to have two matched sets of batteries for spares.
> If one propulsion battery goes I can swap out a good one off my dump
> pack.
> Now is it best to match that is 18 in car 18 for dumping or more ?
> This option makes it brain dead simple just bridge and wait right ?
> Or I thought maybe have 19 for the dump pack - any thoughts here.
> Use a power relay and bang engage directly shunting the packs.
> All opinions welcome.
> Thanks,
> Danny
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I read you want to 'dump' charge. To me this means
a 200 amp (or higher) charge current rate. This
similar to what John Wayland does by carrying
around an additional set of batteries with him to
http://nedra.com races.
His method is to monitor the EV pack's voltage
and current, then connect the external pack
directly to the EV's pack.
Joe mentioned an external pack of the same size
won't work. When the external pack's voltage is
higher than the EV's pack a current flow will occur.
I believe Joe's point is you need a higher external
pack voltage to ensure a complete charge of the
EV's pack.
As John's EV pack voltage rises, the current tapers
(drops) off. The EV's pack may not be charged before
this happens.
So, John would disconnect the dump charge pack,
manually add another battery, and then reconnect
the bumped up dump pack to the EV's pack (still
monitoring the EV's voltage and charge current).
When the EV's pack surface voltage reached a
certain point (and the EV's AGM batteries are
starting to steam), John disconnects and gets back
in line to race again.
John's method is manual but it works. Steve's
method is to recharge using a PFC-20. Even a
PFC-50 would not be a enough current to call it
a 'dump' charge flow.
I heard years ago, a Washington EAA chapter
(Townsend?) had worked on a project with a local
High School. They set up a higher voltage pack at
the HS put on a constant charge.
Their 96V EV would come in, and do a dump charge
off that pack, using an EV controller to control
the current from the higher voltage dump pack to
the EV's pack.
It was still a manual process to adjust the
controller, keeping an eye on the EV's pack
voltage and charge current. But it was less manual
than stopping the charge to add a battery (like
what John does).
So, you could build a higher voltage external
dump pack, and use a cheap 400 amp cursit
controller to control the dump current.
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
90HP*.746kW=67.14kW. What is the 1/.75 for?
each cell is (3v*30A) 90W or .09kWh for 3 hours
67.14 / .09 = 746 cells, no? Still a lot of cells.
Are there 4 or 5 cells per battery? 12 or 15 volts?
746/4=186 batteries or 746/5=149 batteries.
How much can the Li-Ions deliver for 20 seconds without
excess heat or damage? From what has been learned thus
far, are we saying that 30A is the max, or the nominal load?
Can they handle short term draws of 60A? how about 90A?
if 60 is possible, then 75-93 batteries will do 90HP, 45 nominal.
if 90 is possible, then 50-62 batteries will do 90HP, 30 nominal.
30HP is 22.3kW for 60 minutes is .373kWh/minute or mile.
373wh/mile seems greater than the averate conversion uses, no?
so, one would need 50 or 62 Li-Ion for a 180 mile EV?
Assumeing that they will dish out 90Amps or utilize a hybrid pack.
Even though they are small and lightweight, 50 is still a lot of
batteries, it'd have to be an SU(E)V. <G>rin
L8r
Ryan
Joe Smalley wrote:
I think the way to state this is:
Each cell can deliver 90 watts (3 V x 30 A) safely for three hours.
To get 90 HP, you will need 994 of these cells.
90 HP 746 W 1
--------- x ---------- x ---------- = 994 cells
90 W 1 HP .75
This formula takes the system voltage out of consideration.
Opinion:
That seems like an awful lot of cells to make 90 HP.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just finished my son's EV scooter--a converted GO-Ped with 2 Bosch motors originally
for EV Warrior.
I have the two motors wired in parallel, with one 12V battery. It's a bit sluggish
because the spindle diameter is designed to work on a bicycle tire, with much larger
diameter. No controller yet, just 30A auto relay for ON/OFF.
With 100 lb son riding it, it pulls 15A on level surface. Goes approx 8-10 mph.
I'm going to try a second battery to give it more power. Looking for advice: wire
the second battery in parallel or series? I believe that these motors are rated for
12-24V.
Thanks, in advance for your advice.
Chuck
________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 28 Jun 2003 at 4:57, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> It's a bit
> sluggish because the spindle diameter is designed to work on a bicycle tire,
> with much larger diameter.
This shouldn't make any difference. What matters is the diameter of the
drive puck. The wheel is just an intermediate "idler" between the puck and
the ground. Think of it this way: the larger the wheel, the slower it
turns, but the faster it covers ground with each rotation; they cancel out.
On the other hand, maybe your Go-ped weighs more than an EV Warrior.
Try adding a second battery in series, but keep an eye on motor temperature.
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On the Thunder Sky web site, TS claim that the batts can pump out 3CA.
(so 270A for 90Ah, 300A for 100Ah batts)
So far the actual reality has been considerably less, hence the 30A figure for 90Ah
jobbies.
(Boy do I hope that they get better with a bit more use...)
The batteries themselves are single cells, so 3.6V nominal voltage.
They come strapped together in a pack of four, and could be easily wired up as a 14.4V
pack.
(Or separated and packed together in whatever size you liked)
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Ryan Fulcher [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, 28 June 2003 2:12 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: LiIon conclusions
90HP*.746kW=67.14kW. What is the 1/.75 for?
each cell is (3v*30A) 90W or .09kWh for 3 hours
67.14 / .09 = 746 cells, no? Still a lot of cells.
Are there 4 or 5 cells per battery? 12 or 15 volts?
746/4=186 batteries or 746/5=149 batteries.
How much can the Li-Ions deliver for 20 seconds without
excess heat or damage? From what has been learned thus
far, are we saying that 30A is the max, or the nominal load?
Can they handle short term draws of 60A? how about 90A?
if 60 is possible, then 75-93 batteries will do 90HP, 45 nominal.
if 90 is possible, then 50-62 batteries will do 90HP, 30 nominal.
30HP is 22.3kW for 60 minutes is .373kWh/minute or mile.
373wh/mile seems greater than the averate conversion uses, no?
so, one would need 50 or 62 Li-Ion for a 180 mile EV?
Assumeing that they will dish out 90Amps or utilize a hybrid pack.
Even though they are small and lightweight, 50 is still a lot of
batteries, it'd have to be an SU(E)V. <G>rin
L8r
Ryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't think it is more batteries you need, it is more relays. Since you
have two motors you can build a parallel/series switch like some of the drag
racers use. I would tell you how to do it, but since I have never done it
myself I would probably tell you wrong. Someone else on the list will have
to fill you in on the details.
Are you using the friction drive? My first EV was converting one of the
kids scooter for them, but the friction drive was it's weak link. They
loved to ride it though. One of these days I need to get a better drive
worked out and put it back together for them. Trouble is I spend all my EV
time tinkering with my motorcycle.
damon
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: EV Scooter advice
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 04:57:46 GMT
Just finished my son's EV scooter--a converted GO-Ped with 2 Bosch motors
originally for EV Warrior.
I have the two motors wired in parallel, with one 12V battery. It's a bit
sluggish because the spindle diameter is designed to work on a bicycle
tire, with much larger diameter. No controller yet, just 30A auto relay
for ON/OFF.
With 100 lb son riding it, it pulls 15A on level surface. Goes approx
8-10 mph.
I'm going to try a second battery to give it more power. Looking for
advice: wire the second battery in parallel or series? I believe that
these motors are rated for 12-24V.
Thanks, in advance for your advice.
Chuck
________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> Are you going to make and sell these? Or publish the plans?
>
even better I'll tell you right now . All the parts are in a VCR , I had
somebody that wanted me to fix one . After putting in a fuse , I blessed it
and after he left I got looking a the head , That is one fine motor , with a
big magnet , there is a spot on the control board that plugs in to power it
(not the video output) , like 6 to8 places to try to find some power out . I
put my 0-scope to find the best two but a meter will do. Solder 2 led's in
parallel so they'll light either way (I don't use the one's in the VCR but
you can) ) to the two pins you just found. Now spin the part that use to
stand still while holding the part the use to turn . The led's light up
(there also spinning around) and they do it each time the coil passed the
magnet so you get 6 to 10 spots where the led is on . Drill a hole in the
part the use to turn and tap it, then put a threaded rod ( the hard part it
putting it on the car) in it , There are 3 screw's that held the head in
place on the vcr, this is where you'll put the blades which can also be made
form the plastic parts in the VCR. I use a heat gun to bend them , .Of
course you may think of a better way . There is a OH contest going on right
now at www.grassrootsev.com , you have till 9/11/03 to get it built and
pictures in .
I am going to video one being made as filler on the next " convert your gas
car to electric video i do ".
Good luck
steve clunn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you have a variac and a bridge, it is commonly called a "variac charger."
If you have a variac and an isolation transformer and a bridge, it is
commonly called an "isolated variac charger."
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 11:00 PM
Subject: Re: Anybody dump charging ?
> Charging them back is almost as easy ,I have a variable transformer with
> bad
> boy ( would that be a controlled bad boy )and do the same thing , charge
> them all then pull out the week one's as they fill (readjusting the
variable
> transformer as i go ), the weakest one's will charge first.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
About two inches down the page reads:
"The seller ended this listing early because of an error in the listing."
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 7:05 AM
Subject: Ended auction
> Hm. So what happened to this auction?
>
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2420172550&cat
egory=6737
>
> It was up to 1,000, but now looks like all the bids were cancelled?
>
> I've heard bad things about BAT cars; are they worth anything?
>
> CZ
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would say you are done equalizing for now.
Check the water after they sit for a couple hours.
Run them about a week and repeat the equalization next weekend.
The fact that a flooded battery makes it over 7.5 volts at 1.6 amps
indicates they are in good shape. This does not indicate they have a lot of
capacity. It means the chemicals in the batteries are well behaved.
Be careful about battery temperature.
116 is up where a thermal runaway can happen.
You might want to turn the voltage down a couple volts in the hot weather.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Hoskinson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 10:06 AM
Subject: Equalizing question
> I have 5 or 6 cycles on my 96 volt US 250-HC pack, mostly 50 Ah
> cycles, one cycle of about 80 Ah. The 20 hr rating of these 6
> volters is 275 Ah. I've been charging them to a pack voltage of
> 116. Last night I turned the voltage limit of the PFC-50 one
> full turn up, and the current down to 2.2 amps for 4 hours, then
> down to 1.6 amps overnight.
>
> This morning still on 1.6 amps, pack voltage is 121.
> The two lowest batteries measure 7.51 and 7.54.
> 12 of them are between 7.56 and 7.63.
> The highest two are 7.65 and 7.66.
>
> All are bubbling. On a scale of 1-5, where 1 is barely
> detectable bubbles and 5 is a geyser, the bubbling rate is a 2 or 3.
>
> What should I do now? How equal should they be?
>
> Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Mike Hoskinson
> Edmonton
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "The Levine Family"
> If you put any 2 power supplies in series, is you current output then the
> lesser of the 2?
They add until the current and voltage settings are met in each PS when
connected in series.
> A related question: What if you have them in parallel with 2 different
> voltage ratings, does overall current into the battery(ies) drop once the
> voltage output exceeds the lower one's output? E.g.- one puts out 57.6V
at
> 20A and the other puts out 60.0V at 5A, so, from your starting point to
> 57.6V, you have 25A input...but how much current is going in from 57.7V to
> 60.0V?
>
>
OK, PS #1 put's out 20 amps until 57.6v is reached then it starts to cut
back on the current so you can stay at 57.6v and the current keeps dropping
until you get 57.6v and 0 amps
PS#2 put's out 5 amps until the battery hits 60v and then cuts back until
you reach 0 amps.
If you connect both Power Supplies in parallel (with steering diodes) to a
battery then you get your 25 amps until you hit 57.6v then current starts to
drop until PS#1 reaches it's set limits of 57.6v and 0 amps at which time
PS#2 is the only PS pushing current and it will push current until the
battery hits 60v and then the current will start to drop until the
resistance in the battery won't let the current drop anymore, this is when
the battery is full.
www.lasvegasev.com
Richard Furniss
Las Vegas, NV
1986 Mazda EX-7 192v
1981 Lectra Centauri 108v
3 Wheel Trail Master 12v
Board Member, www.lveva.org
Las Vegas Electric Vehicle Association
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
75% efficiency for the motor/controller/comfort loads in the vehicle.
I used 3 volts for the cell voltage under load.
Very good questions. We all wait for the answers.
The way to get the thermal answers is to apply a 60 amp load for a fixed
period of time and measure the temperature rise of the terminals after each
test. I would expect the temperature rise to be proportional to the duration
of the test times the test current.
Has anyone run this test?
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Fulcher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 9:11 PM
Subject: Re: LiIon conclusions
> 90HP*.746kW=67.14kW. What is the 1/.75 for?
>
> How much can the Li-Ions deliver for 20 seconds without
> excess heat or damage? From what has been learned thus
> far, are we saying that 30A is the max, or the nominal load?
>
> Can they handle short term draws of 60A? how about 90A?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Try looking at the voltage across the shunt with an oscilloscope. You will
probably find that the current is in pulses.
Measure the peak to average ratio to get the crest factor.
See how much time there is no current flowing.
The DMM may sample the data during one of these "zero current" states and
average it in with two good readings.
As far as damping the meter, you will need a resistor as well as a capacitor
to do the damping. The resistor will increase the range of the meter. I
would probably go for a doubling of the scale. If it is a 20 amp scale, it
might read 20 amps to indicate a real 40 amps flowing.
To do this, you will need to measure the internal resistance of the meter
movement. You can do this with a DMM on the ohms scale.
Get a resistor the same value as the internal resistance of the meter and
put it in one of the wires to the meter movement.
Get a capacitor rated for at least one volt (more voltage is overkill in
this application) and as much capacitance as you can in a thumb size (or
smaller) capacitor. Install the capacitor across the meter movement screws
(observing correct polarity.)
If the meter is sluggish, use fewer uF. If it still wiggles too much, use
more uF.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lesley Walker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 12:57 AM
Subject: Meter damping
> The new meter is a bit hard to read because the needle waves around a
> lot. There seems to be some high frequency ripple because the needle
> becomes a blur nearly half an amp wide when the power is turned on,
> and there's also a visible wavering up and down of about an amp.
>
> So the question is, can I damp out these oscillations by just hooking a
> capacitor across the meter? What's a good size to start trying with?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Apparently not enough damage to kill it right away.
To use an analogy: You are hitting glass with a hammer.
It might not break the first time, but if you hit it hard enough and/or
enough times, it will break.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 9:07 AM
Subject: Re: Mike the Menace strikes again
> I have noticed when freewheeling in gear and going the opposite direction
> with a Curtis controller my car will hit about 3mph and then stop dead.
How
> much damage does this do to the controller? Lawrence Rhodes.....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
1. If the total voltage is above the voltage regulation point of the power
supply with the most current, then the output current will be the current of
the lower current supply.
If you are below the voltage regulation point of the power supply with the
most current, then the output current will be the current of the higher
current supply. If the lower current supply does not have an antireversion
diode, then the higher current may blow the lower current supply.
2. Yes.
3. 5.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "The Levine Family" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 5:33 PM
Subject: Power supply currents, was Re: Battery Cycler project
> > The way to do it with one diode is to put the power supplies in series
and
> > put the diode across the lower current supply to prevent it from being
> > reverse biased during bulk charge. The lower current power supply does
not
> > need to be as sophisticated as a Sorensen. It can be just a 4 amp TWC
> (third
> > world charger) and a resistor calibrated to put out the correct
> equalization
> > current.
>
> If you put any 2 power supplies in series, is you current output then the
> lesser of the 2?
>
> A related question: What if you have them in parallel with 2 different
> voltage ratings, does overall current into the battery(ies) drop once the
> voltage output exceeds the lower one's output? E.g.- one puts out 57.6V
at
> 20A and the other puts out 60.0V at 5A, so, from your starting point to
> 57.6V, you have 25A input...but how much current is going in from 57.7V to
> 60.0V?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chuck,
The EV Warrior's two Bosch motors were connected in parallel powered by two
12V batteries in series. I think you will be amazed at the difference you
get by adding the second battery. A note of caution, DON'T LET YOUR SON BE
THE FIRST TO TEST THIS! The EV Warrior motors are 350W each (total of 700W,
almost 1 HP, and more power than most of the factory built scooters on the
market) at 24V and are designed to push the bike at over 20 MPH. You should
get about the same, or better, performance from the scooter. (Now I am
assuming you started with a kids push scooter with the 12" tires.) You
really do need to get one of the EV Warrior (Curtis 1505) controllers or you
will be grinding through the tires with all the torque at takeoff.
Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 9:57 PM
Subject: EV Scooter advice
>
> Just finished my son's EV scooter--a converted GO-Ped with 2 Bosch motors
originally for EV Warrior.
>
> I have the two motors wired in parallel, with one 12V battery. It's a
bit sluggish because the spindle diameter is designed to work on a bicycle
tire, with much larger diameter. No controller yet, just 30A auto relay
for ON/OFF.
>
> With 100 lb son riding it, it pulls 15A on level surface. Goes approx
8-10 mph.
>
> I'm going to try a second battery to give it more power. Looking for
advice: wire the second battery in parallel or series? I believe that
these motors are rated for 12-24V.
>
> Thanks, in advance for your advice.
> Chuck
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
> Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
> Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris ran a 30A discharge cycle on 6/17 with fans blowing on the cells, and
did a brief resistance measurement during the discharge where the current
was increased in 10A steps for about 15 seconds each, starting with 10A and
ending with 80A.
The background temp from the 30A was around 32 deg C prior to running the
resistance test. The slope of the temperature graph at the end of the 80A
step was about 1 degree C in 6 seconds, measured at the terminal (don't know
which).
The graph is on my website at
http://ev.whitecape.org/lion/GroupDischarge6-17-03resistancecheck.pdf . The
raw data is in "Group Discharge 6-17-03.xls" in the same directory (spaces
in filename).
So certainly the cells will do 80A and probably a bit more for a short time.
An optimistic scenario is that you pull 90A (1C) starting with a pack at 30
deg C until you get to 60 deg C. That would take (60-30)*6 = 180 seconds, or
3 minutes. That will certainly get you merging onto the freeway and handle
most things except long, steep hills. Hopefully you will cool off (though
this seems to be slow) by the next time you need to do this.
However, we have not done a straight discharge until it gets too hot or 3V
test.
I also would like to have various discharge current tests. I'm getting my
equipment together now. It's not the sort of test you want to leave running
unattended.
Gary
--------------Joe Smalley writes----------------
From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sat Jun 28, 2003 5:36 am
Subject: Re: LiIon conclusions
I used 3 volts for the cell voltage under load.
Very good questions. We all wait for the answers.
The way to get the thermal answers is to apply a 60 amp load for a fixed
period of time and measure the temperature rise of the terminals after each
test. I would expect the temperature rise to be proportional to the duration
of the test times the test current.
Has anyone run this test?
Joe Smalley
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Fulcher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 9:11 PM
Subject: Re: LiIon conclusions
> How much can the Li-Ions deliver for 20 seconds without
> excess heat or damage? From what has been learned thus
> far, are we saying that 30A is the max, or the nominal load?
>
> Can they handle short term draws of 60A? how about 90A?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lucky...
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 4:05 PM
Subject: Waking to the sweet smell of sulfur
> OK,
>
> I finally did it. The other night I went to bed and forgot that I had my
> batteries on charge. It's a small pack and usually only takes about 60-90
> minutes at 10amps to charge. Of course I remembered first thing when I
woke
> up the next morning and as I made my way downstairs I could smell the
sweet
> smell of sulfur wafting up from the garage. I had a chance today to take
it
> out for a test run and see what damage was done, and I was actually
> surprised that the bike seemed to have nearly the same performance and
range
> as usual. It seems that one battery took the brunt of the damage.
> Physically it is easy to see which one it is, as it bulged way out and was
> venting when I came down and turned the charger off. After a good 4 mile
> test run this battery was sitting at 11.75 while the rest of the pack came
> in at between 12.4 and 12.7 volts resting. Suddenly that $30 timer I was
> looking at at Home Depot the other day doesn't seem so expensive. Is it
> normal for one battery to sacrifice itself for the rest of the pack, or
did
> I just get lucky?
>
> damon
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Parallel will give more range at the same speed.
Series will give more power and less range.
You will need a speed control to keep it safe for the kids.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 9:57 PM
Subject: EV Scooter advice
>
> Just finished my son's EV scooter--a converted GO-Ped with 2 Bosch motors
originally for EV Warrior.
>
> I have the two motors wired in parallel, with one 12V battery. It's a
bit sluggish because the spindle diameter is designed to work on a bicycle
tire, with much larger diameter. No controller yet, just 30A auto relay
for ON/OFF.
>
> With 100 lb son riding it, it pulls 15A on level surface. Goes approx
8-10 mph.
>
> I'm going to try a second battery to give it more power. Looking for
advice: wire the second battery in parallel or series? I believe that
these motors are rated for 12-24V.
>
> Thanks, in advance for your advice.
> Chuck
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
> Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
> Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hmmm. Don't know if he butchered the Delorean. I'd take it. Lawrence
Rhodes...
----------------------------------------------------
This mailbox protected from junk email by Matador
from MailFrontier, Inc. http://info.mailfrontier.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Hurley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 8:46 AM
Subject: Re: Tilley and his Delorean
> >Remember all the stories about Tilley and his free-energy Delorean?
> >Well, the Tennessee Dept of Commerce just seized all his assets....
> >(something about mis-representing his invention to stock holders..
> >oh my.)
>
> But, but, but, Tilley's a genius! He's the greatest thinker since
> Einstein! They /can't/ take his invention away! It's gotta be that
> conspiracy he was worried about. Yeah! That's it! They can't handle
> the threat he poses to the status quo. </sarcasm>
>
> Or maybe he's a swindling bastard who butchered a Delorean and
> screwed a lot of people.
>
> Hmm, I wonder which one of the above passes the BS smell-test more
> easily? (rhetorical question)
> --
> Auf wiedersehen!
>
> ______________________________________________________
> "..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
>
> "Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in
> sort of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand
> naked women screaming and throwing little pickles
> at you?"
>
> "..No."
>
> "Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
> - Real Genius
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The vapor-drive EV being sold on eBay by solar-solutions, item #2420246849,
seems to have gotten a "buyer" who used the "Buy it Now" option; as a
private aution, we may never know who it was and whether anything will
become of this...but, honestly, was it anyone on this list?
He now has another (very odd) item for sale, but it ain't no EV! I do see he
now has a rating of 1!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How hard up for sales can he be?
His site isn't even functional, yet he blasts out spam
for people to look at his site (don't bother, its blank).
Like most spammers, he does not even know where I am,
that I can get it right here in the USA.
Sheesh, hungry sales types trampling the EV market.
--- xxx <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Are you interested in getting a Segway ?
>
> They will be available in Australia pretty soon.
> You may care to visit
>
> xxx.segwayaustralia.xxx
>
> Michael Mote
-
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Other day I happened into my favorite CB radio and electronics shop, and lo,
there sat a Segway reposing on its "kickstand". And not just the strippo
version, but one fully loaded with the HID lights and laptop carry bag etc.
And on the fender, the designers autograph in sharpie marker. Seems that
Allen, the owner of the CB shop knows Dean Kamen and has actually bought
quite a few of the Segways since they came out. He told me about the
availability of different tires for on and off road and talked about how he
and his wife had done some trail riding with their knobby tired Segways, and
how they both loved them. And just then it was getting on to 5 PM and Allen
was closing the shop. He hopped on his ride, moved it out the door, locked
the shop up and after helmeting and gloving up, zoom, off into the still hot
as he** day on his way home. He apparently has been commuting on this thing
for some time, lives about 4 miles from work each way. Very nicely built
piece of equipment (reminded me of a piece of hospital gear), seems to work
as claimed but still oh so strange. David Chapman.
--- End Message ---
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Fabulous weather is expected for this Sunday's (06/29) EVA/DC *Power of DC
3rd Annual East Coast Electric Drag Races at Mason-Dixon Dragway in
Hagerstown, MD. Gates open at 9:00 a.m. and racing begins at 1:00 p.m.
Hagerstown is about 60 miles northwest of the Capitol Beltway via I-270 and
I-70 from Frederick, through rolling green countryside.
"This is the only EVent of this type in the East," says *Power of DC*
Coordinator, Chip Gribben, "and some of the racers are coming from as far
away as Detroit. I invite everyone to join us!"
At least two powerful electric dragsters are among the dozen or so EVs
expected on Sunday, including:
* Shawn Lawless' "Orange Juice" dragster
* NetGain's "Bad Amplitude" dragster,
* Bob Salem's high-performance "ELECTRK VW" pickup,
* The famous "grudge match" between Charlie Garlow's Chevy S-10E pickup and
Bryan Murtha's Ford Ranger EV,
* Chip Gribben's Ford Escort with Optima batteries and a new traction
package,
* Christopher Zach's 300 volt AC-powerered US Electricar Geo Prizm,
* Rob Neighbour's beautiful red Pontiac Fiero, "Sparky," racing for the
first time, without a clutch,
* Central Shenandoah Valley (VA) Regional High School's "electronically
altered" Datsun 240-Z
* A hotly-contested motorcycle racing class, including:
Darin Gilbert's 48-volt "Pirahna"
Shawn Lawless' 48 volt motorcycle with side car
Paul "SkooterCommuter's" MoRad 1500 screaming 48 volt Vespa-style E-scooter
. . . And possibly more. Winners of the race will receive cash prizes,
trophies and other goodies.
There is a small entrance fee at the track ($5 per car and $5 per spectator)
Chip Gribben has set up a special Website at www.powerofdc.com, with a cool
video introduction and full directions and a map to the track. And he has
designed some sharp-looking and collectible *Power of DC* T-shirts that
will be available for $20 at the track.
This year, a raffle will be held for a classic 24 volt *Aurenthetic"
E-motorcyle (looks likes a small Harley-Davidson!) donated by EVA/DC's
Charlie Garlow. Tickets are just $1 each and will be limited to 200
entries.
There will also be door prizes including some donated Megawatt Motorworks,
Bad Fish Engineering, and Flexcar
We will also accept orders for videos taken by EVA/DC member Greg Crabtree's
video crew.
EVA/DC would like to thank our volunteers and sponsors, including:
__ EV Parts
__ Manzanita Micro
__ KTA Services
__ EVA/DC and its members
__ Megawatt Motorworks
The *Power of DC* is officially sanctioned by the National Electric Drag
Racing Association (NEDRA) http://www.nedra.com .
Chip reminds everyone to bring suntan oil, hats and *ear plugs." Why ear
plugs? Because there will also be some very LOUD "gassers" that will run in
separate heats.
Also, Chip welcomes everyone -- racers and EV spectators -- to join us for
dinner at a localItalian restaurant following the event.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
DIRECTIONS
If you are coming from Washington DC or Baltimore, get on Rt. 270 or Rt. 70
and head towards Frederick, MD.� Once at Frederick get on, or stay on, Rt.
70 west towards Hagerstown.� Follow Rt. 70 until you reach Rt. 66 (Exit
35).�At the bottom of the ramp turn onto Rt. 66 South,� go about 1/2 mile
until you reach Rt. 40 (you will see a Sheetz convenience store at the
intersection). Turn left (east) on Rt. 40 and go just another 1/2 mile, the
Dragstrip entrance will be on your right.
If you are coming from Harrisburg or Martinsburg, take Rt. 81 to Hagerstown,
MD.,� then go East on Rt. 70 towards Frederick, MD.�� Follow Rt. 70 to EXIT
32A (Rt. 40). Get off that exit and follow Rt. 40 east for exactly 3.7
miles, passing a Sheetz store on the way. Continue straight to the track
entrance, which will be on your right side.
Chip Gribben
Power of DC Racing Chairman
http://www.powerofdc.com
301-490-0657
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Dave Goldstein
EVA/DC President
http://www.evadc.org
(Chip Gribben, Webmaster)
301-869-4954
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
------------------------------------------------------------------
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--- Begin Message ---
Ok Joe,
How do you "pull out" the weak batteries, 65 to 72 pounds each all tied
together with heavy cables, so the weak batteries will get charged first
?
Menlo Park III,
Bill
On Fri, 27 Jun 2003 22:15:54 -0700 "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
> If you have a variac and a bridge, it is commonly called a "variac
> charger."
>
> If you have a variac and an isolation transformer and a bridge, it
> is
> commonly called an "isolated variac charger."
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 11:00 PM
> Subject: Re: Anybody dump charging ?
>
>
> > Charging them back is almost as easy ,I have a variable
> transformer with
> > bad
> > boy ( would that be a controlled bad boy )and do the same thing ,
> charge
> > them all then pull out the week one's as they fill (readjusting
> the
> variable
> > transformer as i go ), the weakest one's will charge first.
>
>
________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Clunn Prince of Florida strikes again! There's not place for
a hood ornament on my D but a nice roof antenna set at a rakish
angle from the top of the windshield. Your Clunn Generator would
look great there.
Mike Hoskinson
1sclunn wrote:
.... Littlefield Please calm down . The Tilley name is safe and
I won't be
calling my hood ornament anything that
might bring your foundation shame ....
--- End Message ---
