EV Digest 2889
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Gasless on Greenwood AV.
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Re: Cross country success
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Orbital YT Wannabes
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: RS-232 DMM
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Mini Hydrolic Pump
by "James Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) OT serializing transformers
by "James Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: real time wh/mile meter?
by Ben Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Curtsis DC-96 controller info Needed
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9) eMeter RS232, temps and realtime wh/mile
by fred whitridge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Electric boat, more EV projects
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) TdS Report #79: Interview with Tour de Sol Technical Director Rob Wills
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) RE: Someone bought it?
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Orbital YT Wannabes (was Long trip)
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Back East Drag Race
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Power of DC
by "Shawn Lawless" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Fuel Cell Laptop
by "Coallier, Steve" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: OT: Fuel Cell Laptop
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
18) RE: OT: Fuel Cell Laptop
by Sam Thurber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) 2003 NEDRA Power of DC Part I
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Electric boat, more EV projects
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: real time wh/mile meter?
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Fill us in on your adventure, if you don't mind.
Thanks,
Seth
Chris Zach wrote:
>
> Took the Prizm on a cross-country to the Power of DC races. Made it up
> all the way under her own power (75 miles) including a run up the
> Appalachian mountains.
>
> Note: When you go from pulling 50-60 amps at 65mph to pulling over 140
> amps you probably did not blow a tire. You're simply going up a steep
> mountain grade.
>
> It made it. The one hour stopoff at the Battery Warehouse in Frederick
> was enough to make it through the hills and to the strip. I'll write
> more about the drive if anyone's interested.
>
> Chris
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks all for the info , Sounds like I got the right one's and My
924Porsche will lose some weight and gaining some voltage now 132v 3900lbs
later 240v at est 3400 lbs, . I also have a 1000amp t-rex to go in there.
After a little 280 mile ride (will charge three times ) in the bed of the
EV Mazda truck. I Drove the Mazda with the 20 excides (in the bed) in
parallel(2 strings) with the 20 golfcarters 60 miles sunday . From the
meters
it looks like it will make the 80 miles at 50 mph just fine. Steve Clunn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bryan Avery wrote:
> Since the E-Meter I bought has the 500V prescaler, do I need anything
> different for measuring & testing single cells at 3.6V? Do I just wire
> it up without the pre-scaler? Will the E-Meter even work at this low
> voltage?
You will a separate 12 to 48 volt DC power supply (or a spare car
battery), as the 3.6 volts is too low to make the e-meter go. Almost any
old wall-wart (little transformer in plastic case with prongs to go in
the outlet) rated 12 volts or more will do, just add a rectifier if AC
output.
And leave the pre-scaler off for this application.
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S-10
1970s Elec-Trak E20
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
A couple of years ago I visted the Guilford County goverment auction. I
purchased 2 portable Hypospray units. These are the big old honkin gizmost
that are used mor mass imunizations. They superatomize drugs and blast it
right through the skin into the bloodstream.
Anyway, I just wanted the motors out of them. I took one apart and found a
very heavy/solid 1/12 hp electric motor connected to a miniature hydrolic
pump!
Anyway, I got all I wanted/needed out of one of them, the other is sitll in
it's box gathering dust. I was going to put it up on ebay, but I thought
I'd give the members of the list dibs. Didn't know if anyone had a need for
a miniature hydrolic system or not.
James
James F. Jarrett
Information Systems Associate
Charlotte Country Day School
(704)943-4562
Every program is either trivial or it contains at least one bug.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok,
Recently I purchased to transformers with the intent of building a couple of
jacob's ladders for halloween.
One is a 120v Primary 3000v secondary. (25x boost)
The other is 120v Primary 9000v secondary. (75x boost)
Both are AC.
I have made Jacob's ladders with both, but neither really give much of a
display. So I was wondering, if I connect 120 to the primary of the small
one, and then connect the secondary of the small one to the primary of the
large one, would this work? What kind of results would I get?
My first thought is it should work, and I should get 120 x 25 x 75 =
225,000v
Now I know this will arc like a banshee and I'll have to put in some
safties. But I got to thinking that with voltage that high, the internals
of the large transformer may start to arc out.
So can I do this? What kind of safety precautions should I take.
Thanks
James F. Jarrett
Information Systems Associate
Charlotte Country Day School
(704)943-4562
Every program is either trivial or it contains at least one bug.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of James Jarrett
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 8:45 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Mini Hydrolic Pump
Hi all,
A couple of years ago I visted the Guilford County goverment auction. I
purchased 2 portable Hypospray units. These are the big old honkin gizmost
that are used mor mass imunizations. They superatomize drugs and blast it
right through the skin into the bloodstream.
Anyway, I just wanted the motors out of them. I took one apart and found a
very heavy/solid 1/12 hp electric motor connected to a miniature hydrolic
pump!
Anyway, I got all I wanted/needed out of one of them, the other is sitll in
it's box gathering dust. I was going to put it up on ebay, but I thought
I'd give the members of the list dibs. Didn't know if anyone had a need for
a miniature hydrolic system or not.
James
James F. Jarrett
Information Systems Associate
Charlotte Country Day School
(704)943-4562
Every program is either trivial or it contains at least one bug.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At the time I suggested an interface between an E-meter with the serial port, the pulse speedometer sensor most newer cars have
This got the old creative juices flowing... Most cars
(converted) have a speedometer and a lot have a matching
tach. Now most conversions will want to keep the speedometer
but what about the tach? I'll bet you could put a
speedometer in there with out much trouble. Most cars
probably won't have the newer pulse speedometer but heck,
why couldn't you just stick a stepping motor in place of the
cable and program it from a little micro (~10 revs = .1
mile)? The same little micro could figure out the WH. The
speedometer would display the current WH, the trip would
display the WH on this charge and the odometer would display
total WH on the batteries. Think about it, all that and you
wouldn't even have to screw up the dash. Naa... It sounds to
cool to work.
--
It is far more impressive when others discover your good
qualities without your help.
Ben Bennett
http://home.earthlink.net/~greyhawk200/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Danny,
I have one of the original PMC Controller User Manuals.
I have used both the 96 volt controller and now the 72 volt controller.
Both are covered in the user manual.
I would be willing to make a copy of the 35 pages and mail to you for $
20.
This includes making the copies and mailing if you are within the
continental
48 states, other wise any additional mailing cost would be adjusted.
I also have copies of the complete manual for Jet Industries ElectraVan
that includes a section on the PMC Controller.
Menlo Park III,
Bill, Glastonbury, CT
On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 02:08:50 -0400 "David Roden (Akron OH USA)"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On 29 Jun 2003 at 20:08, Danny Ames wrote:
>
> > Anybody know the pin out on the molex connector especially.
>
> Pin 1 = +24v (from traction battery tap, NOT referenced to vehicle
> ground)
>
> Pin 6 = +12v (enable signal from keyswitch, referenced to vehicle
> ground)
>
> Pin 5 = vehicle ground
>
> Pin 2 = potbox (0 or full, I forget which)
>
> Pin 3 = potbox (full or 0, ditto)
>
> Pin 4 = potbox wiper
>
> Note that these PMC DCC-96 (not Curtis!) controllers use all 3
> potbox
> terminals on Molex pins 2-4.
>
> Pin 1 on the Molex connector must be connected. It supplies power
> for the
> logic circuits and also signals low-battery 50 amp current limit.
> It's a
> tap 24 volts from pack negative. The 12v input on pin 6 does NOT
> power the
> controller, all it does is pull in a relay to power it up on the 24
> volts.
>
> The high power connections are plainly marked (or at least they were
> on
> mine).
>
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
> or
> switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> =
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> =
> Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to
> all
> thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite
> thee.
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> =
>
>
________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Several different threads going on here...
Lee Hart has posted that the temp sensor for the eMeter is an LM35. See
Jameco #155740. These cost $1.75 and are good for 0 to 100 C. There
are other part #'s that go below freezing but I don't know what the
eMeter's range is. This part is a three pin package. Tie "output" via
a 200 ohm resistor to "ground". Connect ground and power to the emeter
per their manual. This two wire connection method is also shown in the
datasheet for the LM35. I am logging an eMeter on my cycler and the two
digits of Centigrade temp appear as the last field, pumped out every
second.
I am interested in building a real time kwh/mile readout for the EV at
my son's school. I bought and began fooling around with a pulse counter
from http://www.weedtech.com/ As I'm not terribly electronically
literate I think I need the pulse counter as I load a BASIC Stamp down
with other tasks, like listening to an eMeter, calculating, logging,
and driving a display. Perhaps one of our EE literates could show me
how to lose the weedtech module? In any event, I am logging several
eMeters with java powered TINI modules and have done it in the past with
the Stamp. The weeder tech pulse counter worked fine with a magnet and
reed switch. Lee was urging me to pot up the reed switch and try it out
on the car which I probably will this fall. I had the weeder module
talking with the STAMP altho it seems particular about getting "real"
RS232 levels and I needed a level shifter to do that.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Whoa Partner. This is an application for a small trolling motor. This
thing won't see more than 4 knots unless you are planing in heavy wind. I
would classifiy it as a dingy if it is under 16 feet long. Something that
small and light is prone to capsize. YOu wouldn't want you electric
equptment to get wet. Did you mean flat bottom with a keelboard? My 14
foot Laser weighed 140 pounds. Wouldn't think of putting any motor on it.
Yes, what happens when there is no wind? Don't worry, even in a drifter you
get some puffs of wind. Unless it had aux. propulsion before, just sail.
You will enjoy the change of pace. Lawrence Rhodes........
----------------------------------------------------
This mailbox protected from junk email by Matador
from MailFrontier, Inc. http://info.mailfrontier.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 7:47 PM
Subject: RE: Electric boat, more EV projects
> Thanks for the info!
> Seth, send any info about prop size, RPM etc. my way.
> This is a small sail boat that will fit 3 people max
> with a flat keel. It probably only weighs 100 lbs
> total without sails etc.
> My friend from Baldor stopped by this weekend and
> said I was EV obsessed!. He works for the University
> of Illinios now and is doing a battery equalizer.
> I'll post more info about this soon, quite interesting
> and not a 'passive system'. They are using a switched
> capacitor setup to shuttle charge between batteries.
> Rod
> --- David Stensland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > Hi Rod,
> >
> > Here's a collection of electric watercraft links in
> > which I vaguely
> > remember seeing at least one electric sailboat...
> >
> http://www.megawattmotorworks.com/defaultlinksb.asp?tree=554
> >
> > Hope it helps,
> > -Dave
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > Behalf Of Rod Hower
> > Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 8:20 PM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Electric boat, more EV projects
> >
> > I've had my eyes on a sailboat for a couple of
> > weeks.
> > Jim and I drove out in the TEVan to look at it while
> > his Fiero
> > was charging at my house (he miscalculated and
> > didn't
> > have enough charge to make it home).
> > It was a good deal and he had cash, so I made him
> > a deal, buy the boat for me and you can have the
> > equivalent of a PFC20 (a.k.a. Dodge TEVan charger).
> > So, I've decided wind power is cool, but I need
> > to make this thing electric. I have the batteries,
> > motor and control but need some advice on how to
> > interface the motor to some type of prop. I have
> > very little watercraft experience (I do have a
> > Pontoon
> > boat, canoe and Kuyak, but they are not electric).
> > Any help would be appreciated!
> > Rod
> > www.qsl.net/w8rnh
> >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
TdS Report #79: Interview with Tour de Sol Technical Director Rob Wills
Truth to tell, the reason I come to the Tour de Sol, and the primary reason I
write these Reports, is I want to see what the electric vehicle technology is
doing. Here I can see the ideas becoming reality and the rubber meeting the
road. And doing these Reports affords me the opportunity to sit with Rob Wills
for half an hour and review what we've seen. As a founder of the American Tour
de Sol (after the Swiss model), he has seen them all and has the best sense of
the path they, and we, have taken during the past 15 years.
So what distinguishes the 2003 edition of the Tour from the recent and distant
past? "In the first Tour we had very simple, prototype solar electric vehicles
and a vision of autonomous travel. We were also trying to give great projects
to school teams. Then slowly we started thinking about making this more
practical. Now we see the technology becoming more and more real. We take the
Toyota Prius totally for granted now, at least within our community." When a
team brought a hybrid to the 1993 Tour de Sol, most people did not understand
what they were looking at.
"The diversity of the alternative fuels in the competition strongly impressed
me this year. In 2001 we had them at the request of the Department of Energy.
This time we choose to open up, mainly to recognize the whole controversy: that
alternative transportation is a multi-horse race. The first horse out of the
gate was the electric and it has faltered a few times. It is in search of a
better battery. The second horse is the hybrid and it is starting to get a
pretty strong lead. But in the long term I don't think it can win because it
is too complicated and too expensive. If you can do something with one power
stage, why put two in a vehicle?
"And the third horse being shown here, in the GM demonstration vehicles, is the
hydrogen fuel cell.
"The technical, and practical, question is, `which one is going to win?'
"I think the right answer is, `It depends on the application.' If we had a
better battery that gave us an easy 200-to-250 mile range and a reasonably fast
recharge I think battery electrics would win on two fronts. One is on
efficiency: you cannot beat charge-discharge on a battery and an electric
drive. Mike, what is your running cost is on your EV?" I pay just over 10
cents a kiloWatt-hour and get 5 miles per; that's about 2 cents a mile. "Most
people spend $1 or more for 20 miles. The same distance costs you just 40
cents.
"The hydrogen vehicles are interesting. But the place the hydrogens have a
problem at the moment is the same place that the EVs had a problem. The
storage is pretty limited. It can be cost effective if you use a very high
pressure tank. If you work out how much hydrogen you can put in a 5,000 PSI
tank such as we saw here, it is about 20 kiloWatt hours, through the fuel cell,
delivered to the wheels. That's about the same as 20 lead-acid batteries in an
older battery-electric vehicle which goes about 100 miles. I haven't seen
anything that says it will get significantly better. The only solution at the
moment is a higher pressure tank; 10,000 PSI." Their safety could be an issue.
What about metal hydride storage tanks? "I don't know why they haven't come in
as a practical alternative. I think it's either the storage density, or the
cost of the hydride, or the mechanical breakdown of the hydride over time,
called decrepitation."
Rob still believes that purely battery-electric vehicles still can have a
future if the higher charge-density cell technologies scale up. "The lithium
ion batteries are pretty much mainstream for portable computers and such.
There it has a lot of advantages. The Electrovaya battery has 220 Watt-hours
per pound, achieving an energy density way above what we have seen before. If
a better battery large enough for vehicles comes along, the bulk of commuter
needs could easily be met with a battery electric car."
Anything else interesting in battery technology out there? "I think there is
the possibility of an energy storage device that is like a battery crossed with
an ultracapicitor. They have pretty interesting characteristics, and they are
commercial in Russia for starting vehicle engines in the cold." They work a
lot better than lead-acid in that application.
But near term, Rob sees lithium ion as the product to watch. "It is clear it
takes a lot of management, which adds cost. But information technology and
monitoring and control is becoming very cheap. The raw cost of the battery
will ultimately come down to the raw material cost. That is where lithium
shines. It is a very light metal and quite abundant. At current world metal
prices, it is about the same as lot of heavy metals, but you get so much more
energy storage per unit volume. It also has a higher electric potential."
Cells are typically 4 Volts each, which helps the energy density.
Which brings us to the long term future that Rob sees. While hybrids are
clearly the near term future of most vehicles, "I'll bet you that, although it
might take 10 or 15 years, the hybrids will be passed by either straight fuel
cells or storage electric. And the long term reason why storage electrics will
win, I believe, is when the storage capacity is there, the simplicity and
efficiency will drive the running costs" so they will be the cheapest overall.
"Especially in commercial applications, efficiency is everything."
Another story at the Tour this year, that surprised me and got my attention,
was the vegetable oil and biodiesel fueled cars, especially when they used
waste oils as the fuel stock. "Biofuels have a really clear place in picking
up that waste stream," Rob commented. "This country uses a lot of vegetable
oil in its `cuisine'. It would be interesting to know the statistics on that.
You can probably run a lot of miles. The real question is what will happen
when you run 10 times, 100 times those miles. It is clear to most analysts
that the biofuels won't fundamentally change how we move people and things.
But in developing countries particularly, they can be locally developed, with
low local labor costs, abundant sun light and wonderful growing conditions. I
don't know why prime power for villages in the Amazon rainforest isn't done
with biofuels as opposed to diesel. Even steam engines could generate a fair
amount of electricity and be relatively carbon dioxide neutral. Add the fact
that for the remote villages, some two or three weeks up the river from
significant commercial points, it takes three or four gallons of fuel to
deliver one." Think of what biofuels would mean in those places. "Robert
Williams of Princeton did an analysis a while ago that combined a micro turbine
and a fuel cell and some sort of reforming (to produce hydrogen). The
efficiencies look like they are high enough to make biomass grown as a crop
economic for electric generation." The result could move electric generation
from centralized plants in cities to distributed generation in agricultural
areas, where you could grow enough fuel. That would also move some of the
population back out into those areas again.
Any thoughts about this being the 15th Tour de Sol? "I never thought I would
do 15. My beard is now white. There was no white in 1989. My life has
changed. I'm really glad to see it still going. Nancy Hazard and NESEA are
responsible for the largest part of that. She puts her heart and soul into it,
and I thank her for that. May it continue. We are looking for sponsorship for
next year; that is very important. It's a fun event, and it really helps
change the world. At the Philadelphia Festival, I saw 20 first graders being
told what electric vehicles and alternative fuel vehicles are all about. I
remember the look on their faces. It is good to know that when they go to buy
their cars they will be looking for something different."
- - - -
The complete set of Tour de Sol Reports for 2003 can be found at:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2003
The complete set of past Tour de Sol Reports can be found at:
http://www.FovealSystems.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
- - - -
The above is Copyright 2003 by Michael H. Bianchi.
Permission to copy is granted provided the entire article is presented
without modification and this notice remains attached.
For other arrangements, contact me at +1-973-822-2085 .
- - - -
For more on the NESEA Tour de Sol, see the web page at
http://www.TourdeSol.org
- - - -
Official NESEA Tour de Sol information is available from the sponsor,
the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association (NESEA) at
413 774-6051 , and 50 Miles Street, Greenfield, MA 01301 , and
[EMAIL PROTECTED] . All media enquiries should be addressed to ...
Jack Groh
Tour de Sol Communications Director
P.O. Box 6044
Warwick, RI 02887-6044
401 732-1551
401 732-0547 fax
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I suppose he could have, but that would be VERY expensive since he'd
then have to pay ebay their cut.
On Mon, 2003-06-30 at 00:07, Coallier, Steve wrote:
> He's got a feedback rating of 1 for buying something, not for selling it.
>
> Don't forget - he could have bought-it-now himself!
>
> .Steve Coallier
> "Attack life, it's going to kill you anyway!"
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: The Levine Family [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2003 2:12 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Someone bought it?
>
>
> The vapor-drive EV being sold on eBay by solar-solutions, item #2420246849,
> seems to have gotten a "buyer" who used the "Buy it Now" option; as a
> private aution, we may never know who it was and whether anything will
> become of this...but, honestly, was it anyone on this list?
>
> He now has another (very odd) item for sale, but it ain't no EV! I do see he
> now has a rating of 1!
>
>
--
EVDL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nathaniel Martin wrote:
>
> Hmmmm. I might be a guinea pig and try out these orbitals in my GTI.
> I'm looking at Optimas now, but if I can save some money for similar
> performance....
>
> Especially since I'm looking at a 1000A controller, and these can take
> 1100 for 5 secs.
>
> I'm intrigued!
>
> -Nathaniel Martin
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 1983 VW GTI under construction
I just checked the draw dowm curves on the Small Red Optima that we
tested last fall.
A 1400 amp peak at 6.5 volts is a very stout power package.
This one looks JUST like the Orbital battery.
We won't be doing cycle tests on the Lead Acid battereis, but We can do
the Drag race pull down tests. We can do the tests in a pretty quick
time. The cycle todeath runs take weeks, and well we need to improve the
gear for better speed and data.
I think us Ev street racers need to find the lightest battery that can
saturate our controllers. And not much more.
SVR-14s can make 850 amps
The Hawkers can make from 800 for the Gennies, to 950 amps for the
Aviation spec ones.
The Optima that I have is NOT the 26 lbs one it's like 32 lbs with both
posts and GM type universal posts.
Ok I have my eyes open now I just weighed a Yt blem and it's 43lbs, or
10 lbs heavier than the little RT. For racing the little red top makes
as much or more amps than the full sized Rt, and 10 lbs less lead. THIS
is significant.
If we could get the Same thing with just posts, it might be 26lbs. This
is just about perfect for the 1200 amp class of racer.
The next data point is how long at what amps for the up and coming
Range/hybrid pack. 1200 amps is enough to make Zk2 onwers take notice,
and If you say 800 amps for how long, this sets the time limit for a big
pull, followed by a 50 amp recharge from a Lion or Evercell pack, this
gets you many launches, or on ramp runs.
Now we need a 12 lbs 1200 amp battery. Like a SVR about 17 or 20,
without the heat issue.
Any body running full sized Optimas in a drage race or street race would
benifit from this sized battery.
Oh yea Thank Dave Cloud Racing for giving Joe and I this battery for
testing.
I expect that the Orbital will be close to this data point. I hope it's
lighter, and makes the same amps. Of course!
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> WAY TO GO SHAWN LAWLESS and ORANGE JUICE Dennis Kilowatt Berube
Dennis, Just what where the records set at the power of DC????
We know, the list doesn't yet.
We need the story behind this also, it's worth telling, Can we Con Shawn
into telling it himself???
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Available next year...
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=528&ncid=528&e=1&u=/ap/20030630/ap_on_hi_te/fuel_cell_laptop
It claims 40 hours on a single fuel cartridge. Much better than that silly ICE idea,
huh?
.Steve Coallier
"Attack life, it's going to kill you anyway!"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How can they really support this claim on a fuel cell powered by a
"cartridge of methanol fuel"?
"Fuel cells produce electricity without generating pollutants, through an
electrochemical reaction that uses oxygen and hydrogen."
Only if they start off with H2 and introduce O2 from the air can they end up
with H2O, which needs to go somewhere (like the drippy EV1 when it's
charging on a hot day). If they are using methanol, then they will
definately have other byproducts - the major problem/limitation of the fuel
cell technology.
Still think we are better off sticking with batteries - already proven and
currently in production.
-Ed Thorpe
-----Original Message-----
From: Coallier, Steve [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 10:11 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Fuel Cell Laptop
Available next year...
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=528&ncid=528&e=1&u=/ap/20030
630/ap_on_hi_te/fuel_cell_laptop
It claims 40 hours on a single fuel cartridge. Much better than that silly
ICE idea, huh?
.Steve Coallier
"Attack life, it's going to kill you anyway!"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I can't imagine anybody opting for more expensive fuel
cells and heading to the local "methanol cartridge"
store every 4 to 40 hours instead of just plugging in
the laptop. If some niche application really needs 24
hour battery life, why not just buy two or three
lithium batteries, leave a few on a charger and just
swap them. This sounds like pure hype to attrack niave
investors to me.
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> How can they really support this claim on a fuel
> cell powered by a
> "cartridge of methanol fuel"?
> "Fuel cells produce electricity without generating
> pollutants, through an
> electrochemical reaction that uses oxygen and
> hydrogen."
>
> Only if they start off with H2 and introduce O2 from
> the air can they end up
> with H2O, which needs to go somewhere (like the
> drippy EV1 when it's
> charging on a hot day). If they are using methanol,
> then they will
> definately have other byproducts - the major
> problem/limitation of the fuel
> cell technology.
>
> Still think we are better off sticking with
> batteries - already proven and
> currently in production.
>
> -Ed Thorpe
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Coallier, Steve [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 10:11 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Fuel Cell Laptop
>
>
> Available next year...
>
>
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=528&ncid=528&e=1&u=/ap/20030
> 630/ap_on_hi_te/fuel_cell_laptop
>
> It claims 40 hours on a single fuel cartridge. Much
> better than that silly
> ICE idea, huh?
>
> .Steve Coallier
> "Attack life, it's going to kill you anyway!"
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What a great day of racing we had for our 3rd NEDRA Power of DC at the Mason
Dixon Dragway. Eleven vehicles showed up and raced under the hot blazing sun
in Hagerstown, Maryland. After weeks of rain we were concerned the race
would be washout but it turned out to be a typical hot summer Sunday in
Maryland under a beautiful blue sky.
The events actually started a day before, on Saturday evening, when Shawn
Lawless and his crew from Youngstown, Ohio brought down their 240-volt
"Orange Juice" dragster and did a test run of 11.4 with driver Mark Moore
behind the wheel. Shawn called right after the run and told me they
successfully ran the dragster and they were really looking forward to
Sunday.
A week before, Shawn had emailed me a really cool MPEG of a burnout they did
at a test run in Ohio which apparently did some damage to dragster. So Shawn
had the motor and transmission in pieces and rebuilt just days before the
race.
So the fact that they did a perfect test run the day before at Mason-Dixon
without breaking anything was great news, especially after hearing on Friday
from Kevin Zak, at NetGain, that they probably couldn't make it with their
dragster "Bad Amplitude" because of fuel system problems with their truck. I
had talked with Kevin a day before that about the trucks problems and was
hoping it would be fixed in time. So I was pretty dissapointed we wouldn't
have two dragsters there, but Shawn and his crew were ready to roll which
was great.
Sunday morning Bob Salem and Dave Erb can down from Ohio with Bob's VW
ELECTRK sporting a new Zilla controller Bob decided to install just a few
days earlier, which required a lot of rewiring in the truck. Apparently,
many of us had our cars in pieces just days before the race. We met up with
Bob, Dave and Howard at the Sheetz Gas Station on the way to the track while
I was getting bags of ice for the cooler. I was surprised to see Dave Erb
wandering around the Sheetz store since he told me earlier he was going to
be in Vegas for a trade show. But I'm glad he made it.
When we arrived at the track we were greeted by the big bright orange 70kW
generator we had rented. It was sitting in the grassy pit area ready to be
cranked up. Tom Sigman from Pepco, our local utility, rigged up a special
panel to accommodate all the AC cars and DC cars we had that day.
We set up our and everyone started arriving one by one. It was great to see
old friends and friends from the EVDL. Lawson Huntley, Steve Sawtelle. Bob
Rice and Mark Hanson were there.
My wife Monica, and kids, Jenny and Jake, set up the registration table
where we had three raffles going including door prizes, the scooter raffle
and a raffle for the kids. We also sold plenty of Power of DC T-shirts. We
still have some left (all XL) if anyone would like to order one. Jeff Silva,
an EVA/DCer came early and helped us set up, and he also brought some salad
and watermelon for everyone to feast on for lunch. Nice cool food for a hot
day.
The Orange Juice crew had their motorhomes and trailer set up on the other
side of the track so they drove over to our side in Shawn's beautiful black
48-volt BMW based motorcycle with a sidecar. The motorcycle sported two Etek
motors. A few minutes later Darin Gilbert, from Detroit, showed up with his
handbuilt Pirahna 48-volt motorcycle. He had only had his bike out for a
couple of runs before coming down so he was thrilled to be there to see what
the bike could do. Darin's bikes just get better and better each year. This
one had two Etek motors and 2 sets of Hawker batteries in parallel.
Two vehicles made it all or part of the way to the track under their own
power. Brian Murtha drove his 312 volt Ranger EV truck from Southern
Maryland to Gaithersburg, about 70 miles to EVA/DC Prez Dave Goldstein's
house and was towed the remaining 30 miles to the track.
And our friend, Christopher Zach, drove his AC powered US Elecricar Prizm to
the track under its own power with spot charging along the way. There are
some pretty long steep grades in the mountainous region of Western, Maryland
so Chris did really well.
The two high school teams later showed up each with a crew of 5 or 6 kids.
The Central Shenandoah Valley Regional Governor's School in Virginia with
instructor, Byron Humpries, and their 120-volt 240 Z and Northeast High
School with instructor, Rick Lewis, from North Carolina with their 96-volt
VW Golf GTI. The kids showed a lot of enthusiasm and some had never been to
an NHRA dragstrip before.
It was so cool to have entries from Michigan and Ohio all the way down to
North Carolina and that all the teams really put a lot of effort into
getting their cars ready in anticipation of the event.
EVA/DC Vice Prez, Charlie Garlow showed up with his 312-volt GM S-10 and I
had my 156 volt Ford Escort and brought SkooterCommuter's MoRad 1500.
Charlie brought along his Aurenthetic Mini Bike we restored for the raffle
but found when it was there that one of the batteries had died. It was a
gel-cel. I had noticed a couple weeks before, while I was working on the
bike that one of the terminals was really hot after riding it and it wasn't
holding a charge so it had finally died at the track. Charlie unhooked the
battery, ran into town and we installed a new one just before the race
started. The new battery worked out great and the kids had a blast riding it
around the pits.
NEXT UP, THE RACING . . .
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Rod-
Since converting my 26ft, 4000# wooden flat-bottom scow to electric, I've
learned a lot.
First, given a hull, the biggest efficiency gain to be made are in optimally
choosing a propeller and prop speed for a given max hull speed. In my case,
I chose to use the existing 25HP 2-stroke outboard w/o powerhead and w/o
modifying the lower unit to allow a larger prop. This is a recipe for poor
efficiency. I probably don't get better than 35% efficiency through the
outdrive with this arrangement. This compares to an optimum of around 70%
efficiency with a larger, steeper pitch slow-turning prop. Nevertheless,
despite using my existing inefficient hull and inefficient outdrive, with
two 36v T-105 battery strings onboard, I estimate I have about a 40+mile
range (9+hrs) at 4knots and about 27miles(4.5hrs) at 5knots, which is max.
with the current setup.
To optimize your prop size/pitch for your craft, one method used and
documented by England's Steam Boat Association is to use "Troost Charts". I
had a friend mail me a set of these. They are directed at low-RPM prop
speeds (under 1200rpm or so) and are pretty difficult to understand
initially, but by playing with the equations and charts, an optimum prop
diam. and pitch for a given hull and prop speed can be identified based on a
targeted efficiency, or, permutations of these factors can be used to
identify the other(s) from the charts. I'm thinking I might put this info
in a spreadsheet or ideally into an iterative solver to facilitate
optimizing and making the process easier.
There are also rules of thumb people use for optimum props. For low-RPM
craft (e.g. steamboats and high-eff. electrics), pitch is typically chosen
as 1.5*diam for max RPMs near 300-500. Higher propshaft RPM boats usually
use pitch nearer 1.0*diam. My steamboat (20ftx5ftx6inch) uses a 13-inch
prop w/20inch pitch. It's a mid area prop, so it's probably pretty well
suited for my boat w/o much loss. So, perhaps w/15% slip, at 300RPM, the
boat should go (20/12)*(300/60)/1.15 ft/sec, or 7.25 ft/sec (5mi/hr)---which
is about what I see when it's clipping along at max-engine-rattle speed
(5cycles/sec)---it's not a tight engine!
Second, once you've chosen a prop (outboard or inboard), there's of course
the optimum coupling of your motor consider---similar calcs probably for
electric cars.
Third, and perhaps most important for energy efficiency is to provide enough
batteries to ensure that the Peukert effect isn't going to kill your
efficiency. In my case, this was the PRIMARY factor I had to twiddle with
(since I wanted to use my inefficient existing outdrive and prop). By
adding a battery string to my single onboard string, due to the reduced
losses due to Peukert, I estimated that I didn't just double my time and
range, but instead increased it to nearly 2.5x. Thus, for the cost of 6
batteries (and little hassle), I gained as much time and range as optimizing
the prop/outdrive. Still, my next project is to take my spare outdrive, cut
off the ventilation plate and relocate it up as much as 4 inches. This will
allow me to increase the prop diameter from 10-inch to as much as 18-inch.
This will require slowing down the current max prop speed (at 34v on motor)
from about 1200 to around 400RPM, but with a pitch of perhaps 23inch (vs.
10inch) and with substantially less slip (25% vs 70%), top speed may
increase to (400/60)* (23/12)/1.25 ft/sec or 10.2 ft/sec (7mph), and since
hull speed for this boat is only about 6knots, this is about all the speed I
can efficiently expect anyway.
The problem for the electric motor boat is that the ideal prop requires slow
speed, while most of our electric motors want to turn at higher speeds for
efficiency and to run cooler.
Right now, my max motor RPM is about 2500---prop speed about half that. At
that motor speed, I'm drawing about 80amps, with hundreds of watts (1kw+?)
of electrical loss in the motor (AC4-4002 Tropica motor). Without the
cooling well engineered, I don't run at this speed long. However, if the
motor could spin at 4000RPM, the proportional reduced torque required would
reduce the current to 50amps and the I-squared loss power by 60% or more.
So my motor would be much happier if I didn't direct-couple it to the
splineshaft, but instead geared it up by 1.5 - 2.0. One local electric boat
"Ginger", uses a 10:1 reduction gear from the electric motor to the output
thru-hull shaft. Ginger cruises at about 5knots with only 36amps or so
(mine requires 80amps) at 36v w/4 battery strings.
Now, if I did modify the other outdrive unit that I have to accomodate a
14-18inch diam. prop, with a max prop speed of 400RPM, the max spline shaft
speed would be around 800RPM. For a max motor speed of 4000RPM, I'll need a
5x speed reduction from motor to splineshaft. That may not be do-able, but
may be pushing the limit given space available.
Compounding this, going to higher RPM will likely mean changing from 36v to
48v or higher.
So now I'd have to change charger, controller and battery connections.
Nothing new to the EV car guys, but when things work now, as is, Murphy is
whispering to me about whether it's really what I want....
In case any of these perspectives/experiences help-
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
Electric Reach of Tide:
www.teleport.com/~mylest/reach/reach01.jpg
New Electric Boating Yahoo group:
www.groups.yahoo.com/group/ElectricBoating
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> device. How about a "plus" version of EVdash with some extra
> functions such as a trip meter that could allow for calculation of
> miles traveled on the current charge, miles remaining, instantaneous
wh/mile,
> average wh/mile for the current charge... did I miss anything?
May as well add capability to input both your trip distance and max depth of
discharge and have the device dynamically compute max average velocity to
get there.
I'll eventually be doing this for my electric boat (laptop-based) with data
acquaisition using the relatively cheap Labjack USB-connected DAQ (
www.labjack.com ) boards.
-Myles Twete, Portland
Electric Reach of Tide:
www.teleport.com/~mylest/reach/reach01.jpg
New Electric Boating Yahoo group:
www.groups.yahoo.com/group/ElectricBoating
--- End Message ---
