EV Digest 2893
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: fuel cells - fuel source
by "bholmber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: 20 Fuel cell myths paper
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) New bid on YTs in Portland, OR
by "Eric Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Orbital YT Wannabes (was Long trip)
by "Eric Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Orbital YT Wannabes (was Long trip)
by "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Orbital YT Wannabes (was Long trip)
by "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Switched capacitor battery equalizer
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: EVLN(Yamaha Escooter dealership network)
by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Electric boat, more EV projects
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) REtest
by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: fuel cells - fuel source
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Exide Orbitals vs Yellowtops
by Seth Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Exide Orbitals vs Yellowtops
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: I'm back! -and- help with Project GTI
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Gasless on Greenwood AV.
by Ryan Fulcher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: fuel cells - fuel source
by Ryan Fulcher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) AC motor/controller suppliers
by "Doug Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: AC motor/controller suppliers
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: ampabout
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
There are fuel cell powered vehicles running polymer exchange membrane fuel
cells on hydrogen reformed from methanol. The Daimler-Chrysler Necar 5, and
the Mazda premacy are two that come to mind. Recently, the Necar 5 drove
across the country, over 3000 miles. The problem with running reformed
hydrogen is not making the hydrogen, its cleaning up the hydrogen to the
levels required by the fuel cell. CO in the hydrogen stream really hurts
the performance of the PEMFC.
Brett
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Michael Hurley
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 11:48 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: fuel cells - fuel source
> >Not quite true. All hydrocarbon fuel cells (Methanol, etc.) are just
>>hydrogen fuel cells with an attached reformer.
>
>Maybe we're just picking nits here, but it's possible to have a fuel cell
>without a reformer - though that's not what's being done, for a number of
>reasons.
Yes, then it's a hydrogen fuel cell. I was trying to say that fuel
cells which run off methanol or gasoline or such are just hydrogen
fuel cells with a reformer attached to process the hydrocarbon fuel
and produce the hydrogen that's actually needed by the fuel cell. If
you run off pure hydrogen then you have no need of a reformer in the
car,but you instead have to carry around a tank of liquid hydrogen.
BTW, the Honda FCV (The only fuel cell road vehicle in production)
does this very thing. It has a tank (40 liter, I believe) of pure
hydrogen stored at 5000 PSI under the seats. To my knowledge, no-one
has yet built a hydrocarbon reformation fuel cell for vehicular use.
I think they'd have a real hard time cracking the hydrogen out fast
enough.
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in
sort of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand
naked women screaming and throwing little pickles
at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
- Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It might be easier to build a fuel cell than a battery, but it is much
easier and cheaper to manufacture and charge a battery than manufacture
and supply fuel for the fuel cell.
Batteries store energy and fuel cells convert a stored fuel to
electricity, water, and heat with the help of pumps, fans, valves, and
other controls that need maintenance, repair, or replacement in addition
to the replacement of the fuel cell stack after so many thousand hours.
The only maintance a flooded battery needs is some distilled water once
every month or two.
Hybrids work fine, except the combination of equipment is packed into
such a small area that any collision may cause enough damage to warrant
scrapping the vehicle.
Hybrids still have all the difficulties of an ICE system only now both
ICE and electric propulsion systems are computer controlled. The
average backyard mechanic probably isn't qualified to work his new Hybrid
whereas a simple EV is no more complicated than a child's toy racing car
set.
Yes, most people probably don't work on their cars now, but they
certainly don't want to pay for more than necessary for so called simple
maintenance or repair. And would also prefer to pay less to a local
gas station mechanic or even a backyard mechanic than to their dealer.
But most people probably don't consider this as they trade in their car
before repair required.
Conversions are made every day for highway speeds of 65 to 85 mph and
even GM's EV1 and the Ford Ranger had highway speed capability and
acceleration, so one should not say that EVs are slow.
Menlo Park III,
Bill
California has largely abandoned its mandate to introduce
battery-electric
cars because battery technology, as RMI predicted, was overtaken by
hybrid
technology, which will in turn be trumped by fuel cells. Battery-electric
cars are a valid concept for niche markets, but (as Professor P.D. van
der
Koogh of the Delft University of Technology remarked) are "cars for
carrying
mainly batteries - but not very far and not very fast, or else they would
have to carry even more batteries." It is also probably easier to make a
good fuel cell than a good battery.
On Tue, 1 Jul 2003 14:13:10 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> This report appears to be pro-hydrogen. Notice that all of the
> "myths" are
> considering misunderstanding of a hydrogen economy. The author
> doesn't seem
> to support battery electrics, but accepts the political verdict of
> the CARB
> process (myth 15.c.):
>
> "c. We should improve batteries and increase the required
> electricity
> storage capacity (battery-electric driving range) of hybrid cars.
>
> California has largely abandoned its mandate to introduce
> battery-electric
> cars because battery technology, as RMI predicted, was overtaken by
> hybrid
> technology, which will in turn be trumped by fuel cells.
> Battery-electric
> cars are a valid concept for niche markets, but (as Professor P.D.
> van der
> Koogh of the Delft University of Technology remarked) are "cars for
> carrying
> mainly batteries - but not very far and not very fast, or else they
> would
> have to carry even more batteries." It is also probably easier to
> make a
> good fuel cell than a good battery. Regulators that, like the
> California Air
> Resources Board, have rewarded automakers for increasing the
> "zeroemission
> range" (battery capacity) of their hybrids are distorting car design
> in an
> undesirable direction, increasing the car's weight and cost in a way
> that
> doesn't well serve their strategic policy goals. However, such
> recent CARB
> concepts as requiring hybrids to have at least 8 kW of electric
> drive
> capacity and at least 60-volt traction motors are helpful, because
> they'll
> force real hybrid technology, rather than rewarding just a routine
> shift to
> 42-volt electrical systems that permit the starter/alternator to
> provide a
> minor torque supplement."
>
> The author fails to define what "far" and "fast" limitations are
> required
> for passenger vehicles, and the value of the battery EVs which were
> created
> over the past 5 years.
>
> Basically this paper tries to refute the arguments that H2 costs too
> much,
> is too inefficient a process for extracting energy, that it poses
> environmental problems and will take too long to adopt and
> incorporate in
> our existing automobile environment. Bear in mind that this company
> also is
> developing the hypercar, which is an H2-powered 5-passenger, 330
> mile range
> car.
>
> Still takes the route of dismissing the battery electrics while
> trumpeting
> the hydrogen economy as the solution. Still, I don't buy their
> arguments.
>
> -Ed T
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rod Hower [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 11:21 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: 20 Fuel cell myths paper - Re: fuel cells - fuel source
>
>
> I strongly recommend reading this paper, it should
> help 'clear the air'.
> http://www.rmi.org/images/other/E-20HydrogenMyths.pdf
>
> It's still an electric car, it just has a different
> source of energy.
>
>
________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
After a delay, we've got a new bid for Optima D34 (top-post only)
Yellow Top batteries in Portland.
$108.95 each.
My contact had to push hard to get this price. From what I've
heard, we won't be able to beat this around here.
If anyone wants in, the time is almost up. All we're waiting
for now is delivery time. If at least half of them can be here
within two weeks, we'll be ordering (barring some other snafu).
You'll need to let me know real soon now, and be ready to pay
promptly.
Note that I have no interest in this deal at all except to get
batteries I need at a good price. I'll be paying the same price
as everyone else for all I get.
Thought that this might be an opportunity for some of you.
And now, back to our regularly scheduled program...
Eric Johnson
Now: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
503-348-6392
PS: Sorry if this ends up being a duplicate, I'm still dealing
with the domain name change.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As I understand it, the "Purple Haze" variety that John W. has
been talking about are too new to be two years old. Are you
saying your new ones are specifically Purple Haze's?
If they are, I'd be surprised, since the word is that the top
plate is bigger than the Optima YTs'.
What is the full model number of the new ones?
I just got a quote of $88.95 each for Purple Hazes at 100 minimum
order. Don't know what the delivery time would be yet. There
is some confusion, especially on my part, of exact model number
of the one John mentioned (I seem to have lost the messge and
haven't dug through the archives yet).
Any details would be appreciated, especially if we know exactly
which model we're talking about.
There is a group of us in Portland, OR who are looking to buy
batteries. We're leaning the the YTs we cand get at $108.95
each partly because we aren't really sure of the Exide model
we've been quoted on or of its actual size.
If others want to get whatever model it is at $88.95, all you
need to do is be ready to order 100 or more and I'll pass on
what information I have.
Thanks for the information, though. It looks like more alternatives
are showing up.
Eric Johnson
Now: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (possible source of duplicates)
>--- Original Message ---
>I have been using these on my Sparrow (installed by Corbin)
for almost 2
>years now. I built my own regulators for them. I have put
more than 13,700
>miles on them and they are still holding up very well.
>
>Because of this, I decided to buy these Exide Orbital Deep Cycle
batteries
>for my PaseoEV conversion in Feb. (I had BB600 flooded NiCads
on it. But,
>I was getting very tired adding water to 158 cells very week.)
I got them
>for $105 a piece. My PaseoEV has 16 of these (192V). I finally
had a
>change to install them in April. We have since put about 2000
miles. I am
>using a PFC-20 with my own regulators.
>
>I love these batteries. They have an individual rubber cap
type valve for
>each cell. So, it is possible to add water to them if it comes
to that. I
>believe these are goog alternative to the Optimas. They are
a little
>smaller than the YT though, both in weight (5 lb less) and capacity
(5 Ah
>less). They carry a 2-year warranty.
>
>Ed Ang
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
(It is good that my post finally went thru. I was trying to post for the
past 2 days.)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Otmar
> Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 1:58 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: Orbital YT Wannabes (was Long trip)
>
>
> Hi Ed,
>
> It is wonderful to hear that you are having good experience with them.
>
> 13,700 miles sounds like very good life for such a small number of
>
> batteries. (13 right?) And they are still going strong.
>
>
>
> I'm curious,
>
> How many amp hours can you get from them when you are pushing
> your range?
>
Otmar,
Yes, a Sparrow has 13 12V batteries. Mine are still going strong after
13,700 miles. I was able to pull 22Ah (20 miles) without dropping below
11.15V (145V total) anytime during the drive. This was just 2 weeks ago.
But, I normally do not pull them this hard. I guess if I push it, I should
be able to get at lease 30Ah even now.
> How many do you usually use between charging?
I normally use 13-15Ah. Occasionally (once every 2-4 weeks or so) 17-22Ah.
>
> What sort of regulation and charging are you doing? Are they shunt
>
> regulators? What voltage?
This would be an interesting discussion. I made my own shunt type
regulators. They pull 3A when they are on. And, they could pull 3A
indefinitely dissipating about 45W each. The regulate voltage varies from
14.8-15.3V when regulating. Because we use Zivan NG3 chargers which has a
2A 1-hour equalization phase, the regs got very hot during this phase. So,
I decided to make them so that their regulate voltages increase when they
get hot. This is my way of sensing equalization phase and to enable cell
equalization within each battery.
About 18 Sparrows have my regs installed in them now. Most of these
Sparrows have YTs in them. I am just trying to help fellow Sparrow owners
out and to proof that EVs could use existing battery technologies. I am
getting very good feedback from these owners. And, I am hoping, in a few
months time, these Sparrow would report long battery lives like I do.
My first 2 packs of YTs lasted about 3000 miles each on my Sparrow. I had
PowerCheqs installed until they caught fire. But, that is a whole other
story. Both packs died within 4 months. Many reasons contributed to their
early deaths. In my opinion, the one and only main reason is the 2A
equalization phase without proper voltage regulation and cooling. So, I
made up my mind to attack these issues. Now, it looks like I was right! At
first, I was shooting for 5,000 miles. Then, 7,000 miles, then 10,000
miles, then 13,000 miles. I will be going over 14,000 miles on this pack
next week. This is nearly 5 times as long as my previous 2 packs, although
my current pack is Exide Orbitals and my previous packs were YTs. My target
is now 15,000 miles which should happen in Aug-Sept. At which point, I
would be aiming for 20,000 miles which, I think, would be the toughest since
it would be winter again. But, who knows, it might pass and push towards
25,000 miles next summer.
>
> Do you know your average wh/mile figures?
I never keep track of this. But, a normal Sparrow uses about
150-200Wh/mile. Mine is on the low side because of the way I drive and the
lighter pack compared to YT.
>
> What temperature do they usually run at?
This is another interesting discussion. I made modifications on my Sparrow
to enable more battery cooling. I even installed a 40C thermostat to keep
the battery fans blowing if battery temperature is over 40C. In winter,
they normally stay at about 12-20C. In summer, they tend to stay around
30-38C. At equalization phase, I have recorded temperature as high as 48C a
few days ago during the last heat wave. But, the thermostat-controlled
battery fans cooled them down overnight.
>
>
>
> I have been advised by Peter Senkowski that adding water to Optimas
>
> is a good thing. As an experiment I've added 40cc of distilled water
>
> per cell. On the Optima you have to drill holes and then plug them.
>
> Time will tell if it helps....
Well, I did the same more than 2 years ago on my first pack of YTs --
drilling holes, adding distilled water, and sealing them back. It did not
help the 4 that I added water. I gave up after that. It might help yours.
I think mine were too far gone. Clare Bell also did the same when she was
with Corbin. She reported success with some batteries and not with others.
40cc per cell sounds too much to me. Too much water would prevent oxygen
recombinant cycle and cause excessive gassing.
Ed Ang
>
>
>
> --
>
> -Otmar-
>
>
>
> http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
>
> http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
They are the Orbital Deep Cycle with blue tops, model number 34DC-36. The
part number on Exide's website is ORB34DC-36.
I did not go with the "Purple Haze" model for my PaseoEV simply because the
model is too new, it costs less, and I have good experience with the regular
34DC-36. I just couldn't believe a company such as Exide would sell a
better battery for a lower price. Since both of my EVs are daily commuters,
I really do not want to take this risk.
Ed Ang
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Eric Johnson
> Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 3:02 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: Orbital YT Wannabes (was Long trip)
>
>
> As I understand it, the "Purple Haze" variety that John W. has
> been talking about are too new to be two years old. Are you
> saying your new ones are specifically Purple Haze's?
>
> If they are, I'd be surprised, since the word is that the top
> plate is bigger than the Optima YTs'.
>
> What is the full model number of the new ones?
>
> I just got a quote of $88.95 each for Purple Hazes at 100 minimum
> order. Don't know what the delivery time would be yet. There
> is some confusion, especially on my part, of exact model number
> of the one John mentioned (I seem to have lost the messge and
> haven't dug through the archives yet).
>
> Any details would be appreciated, especially if we know exactly
> which model we're talking about.
>
> There is a group of us in Portland, OR who are looking to buy
> batteries. We're leaning the the YTs we cand get at $108.95
> each partly because we aren't really sure of the Exide model
> we've been quoted on or of its actual size.
>
> If others want to get whatever model it is at $88.95, all you
> need to do is be ready to order 100 or more and I'll pass on
> what information I have.
>
> Thanks for the information, though. It looks like more alternatives
> are showing up.
>
> Eric Johnson
>
> Now: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (possible source of duplicates)
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Rod,
This looks good, if you fill a string of caps with your charge voltage and
then connect them to the batteries, only the cap on the battery that is
below voltage will discharge into the battery.
Pretty much the exact opposite of the time honored method for making high
voltage except this would fill in series and discharge in parallel rather
than fill in parallel and discharge in series for the high voltage
I don't see why those who don't require fast charging couldn't make this
their prime means of charging full stop as we all know most batteries
respond better to pulse charging than constant charging and with this system
as soon as any battery reached full voltage it would stop receiving a charge
while all the others below charge would continue to charge.
If your cap bank was big enough you could even get fast charge rates from
this and they don't weigh much.
On top of this one system could fit all cars no matter how many batteries
they had because you would only need to add one switch and a cap for an
extra battery and the charger could be a 12 volt or 6 volt instead of
whatever voltage you are using in your car because you could fill in
parallel and discharge in parallel even easier than setting up for parallel
/ series cap filling.
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anyone have a link for a Yamaha 2-wheel EV scooter?
S.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Rod, Myles and All,
Rod, unless you want to go faster than 5 mph
use a trolling motor. I find dead large trolling
motor at yard sales. Usually it's the switch or
controller that's dead and the motors fine.
The big ones motors are 24vdc so will take
36vdc well and give you 5 or 6 mph. I should try one
on an E-bike!!
--- Myles Twete <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Rod-
> Since converting my 26ft, 4000# wooden flat-bottom
> scow to electric, I've
> learned a lot.
> I chose to use the existing 25HP 2-stroke outboard
> w/o powerhead and w/o
> modifying the lower unit to allow a larger prop.
> This is a recipe for poor
> efficiency. I probably don't get better than 35%
> efficiency through the
> outdrive with this arrangement. This compares to an
> optimum of around 70%
> efficiency with a larger, steeper pitch slow-turning
> prop. Nevertheless,
While larger dia props for a given pitch are
more eff, when you slow them down and greatly increase
the pitch your tip losses will be more, giving back
most that eff gain from that.
An easier way would be to put a knort nozzle, a
short tube/ fairing/ shroud closely around the prop
tips.
At your speeds this will greatly increase your
starting thrust maybe 3 times and increase eff about
30% at cruising speed. About the same as a larger dia
prop at the same pitch.
Another way to increase eff is use more
blades, lowering the lbs/sq in/ blade area. A lot of
times these are called power props.
Another way is use a larger outboard leg like a
50 hp unit with it's larger prop.
> despite using my existing inefficient hull and
> inefficient outdrive, with
> two 36v T-105 battery strings onboard, I estimate I
> have about a 40+mile
> range (9+hrs) at 4knots and about 27miles(4.5hrs) at
> 5knots, which is max.
> with the current setup.
> There are also rules of thumb people use for optimum
> props. For low-RPM
> craft (e.g. steamboats and high-eff. electrics),
> pitch is typically chosen
> as 1.5*diam for max RPMs near 300-500. Higher
They only use that pitch because they don't have
the rpm. For eff, the pitch should be about the same
or less than the dia.
At the Offshore racing world championships in Key
West when I lived there on my cat in the middle of the
race course, 1 superboatboat had put so much pitch in
their props that that couldn't get up on to plane. I
bet they were p----d!!!
> propshaft RPM boats usually
> use pitch nearer 1.0*diam. My steamboat
> (20ftx5ftx6inch) uses a 13-inch
> prop w/20inch pitch. It's a mid area prop, so it's
> probably pretty well
> suited for my boat w/o much loss. So, perhaps w/15%
> slip, at 300RPM, the
> boat should go (20/12)*(300/60)/1.15 ft/sec, or 7.25
> ft/sec (5mi/hr)---which
> is about what I see when it's clipping along at
> max-engine-rattle speed
> (5cycles/sec)---it's not a tight engine!
>
> Third, and perhaps most important for energy
> efficiency is to provide enough
> batteries to ensure that the Peukert effect isn't
> going to kill your
> efficiency. In my case, this was the PRIMARY factor
> I had to twiddle with
> (since I wanted to use my inefficient existing
> outdrive and prop). By
> adding a battery string to my single onboard string,
> due to the reduced
> losses due to Peukert, I estimated that I didn't
> just double my time and
> range, but instead increased it to nearly 2.5x.
While the increase is true it's more like 2.30.
Also if you run them to dead like this they will not
last long. Only discharge them to 70% unless an
emergency.
> Thus, for the cost of 6
> batteries (and little hassle), I gained as much time
> and range as optimizing
> the prop/outdrive. Still, my next project is to
> take my spare outdrive, cut
> off the ventilation plate and relocate it up as much
> as 4 inches. This will
> allow me to increase the prop diameter from 10-inch
> to as much as 18-inch.
> This will require slowing down the current max prop
> speed (at 34v on motor)
> from about 1200 to around 400RPM, but with a pitch
> of perhaps 23inch (vs.
> 10inch) and with substantially less slip (25% vs
> 70%),
Don't bet on that much gain. Also whatever
reduction you use will eat up some power, 3 to 10% and
higher tip losses from high pitch.
top speed may
> increase to (400/60)* (23/12)/1.25 ft/sec or 10.2
> ft/sec (7mph), and since hull speed for this boat
is only about 6knots, this
7 knots (8 mph) takes almost twice the power as
6 knots in your type of hull. Cats, pontoon boats are
a lot better.
> is about all the speed I
> can efficiently expect anyway.
>
> The problem for the electric motor boat is that the
> ideal prop requires slow
> speed, while most of our electric motors want to
> turn at higher speeds for
> efficiency and to run cooler.
> Right now, my max motor RPM is about 2500---prop
> speed about half that. At
> that motor speed, I'm drawing about 80amps, with
> hundreds of watts (1kw+?)
> of electrical loss in the motor (AC4-4002 Tropica
That's about 3kw and your motor is about 80% eff
so losses would be about 600 watts.
Did you take out the water pump?
> motor). Without the
> cooling well engineered, I don't run at this speed
> long. However, if the
> motor could spin at 4000RPM, the proportional
> reduced torque required would
> reduce the current to 50amps and the I-squared loss
> power by 60% or more.
Yes but the voltage will be higher to get that
rpm so the power will stay about the same. And you
lose on the reduction.
> So my motor would be much happier if I didn't
> direct-couple it to the
> splineshaft, but instead geared it up by 1.5 - 2.0.
With the right prop, nozzle it will be happier
DDrive.
> One local electric boat
> "Ginger", uses a 10:1 reduction gear from the
> electric motor to the output
> thru-hull shaft. Ginger cruises at about 5knots
> with only 36amps or so
> (mine requires 80amps) at 36v w/4 battery strings.
Hull shape, wetted surface of your boat probably
matters more. I'll bet his is better. But scows are
nice as they draw much less water but do need more
power. Shallow draft is important in Fla.
Did he use a PM motor? Using a PM like the E-tek
will increase eff 10% by itself.
>
> Now, if I did modify the other outdrive unit that I
> have to accomodate a
> 14-18inch diam. prop, with a max prop speed of
> 400RPM, the max spline shaft
> speed would be around 800RPM. For a max motor speed
> of 4000RPM, I'll need a
> 5x speed reduction from motor to splineshaft. That
> may not be do-able, but
> may be pushing the limit given space available.
>
> Compounding this, going to higher RPM will likely
> mean changing from 36v to
> 48v or higher.
The higher rpm could come from field weakning, a
very low resistance across the field terminals thru a
contactor to change rpm. A common practice in
forklifts, would save you work, money and time.
> So now I'd have to change charger, controller and
> battery connections.
HTH,
jerry dycus
>
> -Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
>
> Electric Reach of Tide:
> www.teleport.com/~mylest/reach/reach01.jpg
> New Electric Boating Yahoo group:
> www.groups.yahoo.com/group/ElectricBoating
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com
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OK, about a day and a half after comcast took over attbi the e-mail
finally seems to have started to work. Not without changing some
settings - that I could not access for that day and a half - became
available on their web site.
Now I am wondering if I can still send e-mail to the list. Let me
know, thanx! My return address is the same, its supposed to work for
another year. But my new REAL address is now paul-g (at) comcast
(dot) net
Neon
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There are fuel cell powered vehicles running polymer exchange membrane fuel
cells on hydrogen reformed from methanol. The Daimler-Chrysler Necar 5, and
the Mazda premacy are two that come to mind. Recently, the Necar 5 drove
across the country, over 3000 miles.
Note I said production vehicle. Those are both test bed, one of a
kind vehicles.
The problem with running reformed hydrogen is not making the
hydrogen, its cleaning up the hydrogen to the levels required by the
fuel cell. CO in the hydrogen stream really hurts the performance
of the PEMFC.
That is part of producing the hydrogen. If your fuel (the hydrogen)
is impure, your processing system (the reformer) is a failure. If
your processing system is a failure, the whole system breaks down.
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
-Real Genius
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Hi All,
I called my local battery warehouse to get some current pricing
information on Optimas and the new Exide Orbitals. The guy at Ed's
Batteries told me he does not like the Orbitals. He claims that he has
had many many returns on the Exide battery. Just passing it on.
the final lineup:
Optima G34 Yellowtop
10 x 6.8 x 8 L x W x H
~44 pounds
55 Ah (C/20)
max amps 870 (as per data sheet, although we see more in real life)
$130 (Ed's batteries in Westbrook, ME)
Excide Orbital 34XCD "Purple"
10.17 x 7 x 8.12 L x W x H
41 pounds
50 Ah (C/20)
max amps 1100
$98
Now we just need to see how they perform in the real world. See Ya
Seth
--
QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION
http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
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I had a battery dealer tell me he didn't like the Optima's. I have
troubles believing the lowered-car/hydraulics/lighting-effects crowd
follows the best charging regime for AGMs, and as a result may tend to
murder a lot of batteries.
Since you're still building the car, make the boxes big enough for the
Orbital's and maybe before the rest of the car is done, someone will
have done some EV style testing.
Seth Murray wrote:
Hi All,
I called my local battery warehouse to get some current pricing
information on Optimas and the new Exide Orbitals. The guy at Ed's
Batteries told me he does not like the Orbitals. He claims that he has
had many many returns on the Exide battery. Just passing it on.
the final lineup:
Optima G34 Yellowtop
10 x 6.8 x 8 L x W x H
~44 pounds
55 Ah (C/20)
max amps 870 (as per data sheet, although we see more in real life)
$130 (Ed's batteries in Westbrook, ME)
Excide Orbital 34XCD "Purple"
10.17 x 7 x 8.12 L x W x H
41 pounds
50 Ah (C/20)
max amps 1100
$98
Now we just need to see how they perform in the real world. See Ya
Seth
--
QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION
http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
--
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
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Hey Nathanial -
Welcome back! Were you the one who took your prom date to the dance in
your EV (and then allegedly ran out of juice on the way home...)? If so,
you were the one I was thinking of this past prom season as I watched
all the stretch SuvHumVeeUglyThings chauffeuring kid$ around (and there
was a fun thread about who got married because of/in spite of EV
chariots...)
I haven't touched any myself, but yes, Group 31 Optimas are supposed to
be out. Another nice change is that there are now a couple of college
"kids" here in the north east also working on EV conversions so I don't
feel like all the good stuff only happens "over there"... interesting
that all three of you are going for the fun factor this time around.
Good luck.
Nathaniel Martin wrote:
After another year of school, summer is here again, and that means I can
get back to the ev list and working on Project Electric GTI.
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
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oops, I'm not very good with names and was just repeating what Steves
newsletter said.
Sorry Tom.
Anyway,
41 new messages left..
L8r
Ryan
Roderick Wilde wrote:
Hi Ryan,
I would assume we have never met. I'm Roderick Wilde and if the Rodric you
were referring to is me I'm sorry to say that I was unable to attend the
show. I believe it may have been Tom True you were referring to who is
Father Time's son and a major owner of EV Parts Inc. Thanks for the great
post though and I loved your analogy! I was amazed that the gas guys voted
the electric street rod Best of Show. I guess it still has some spark. Pun
intended. When we first built it in 1995 we entered it in the 6th annual
Spring Nationals in Pomona California and it was voted one of the top ten by
Street Rodder Magazine and was also featured in their Sept. '95 issue. It
was also on the front cover of Street Rod Action in the Sept. '95 issue and
a featured car in two international auto shows. It's been shown in several
shows since including The Concurs de Elegance show in Palm Springs and in
2000 it took a first place in The Portland Roadster Show. I feel it has been
a great tool to open peoples minds to the idea of electric propulsion. I see
a new company has been formed to build and sell electric street rods,
Phoenix Motorcars Inc. <http://PhoenixMotorcars.com> I wish them luck. I
don't agree with their drive train layout though from purely an esthetic
point of view. Ryan, I look forward to meeting you in person at Woodburn. I
still may have a few surprises left hidden up my sleeve.
Roderick
Roderick Wilde, President, EV Parts Inc.
Your Online EV Superstore
www.evparts.com
1-888-EV Parts (387-2787)
Phone: 360-385-7966 Fax: 360-385-7922
PO Box 221, 107 Louisa Street
Port Townsend, WA 98368
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Fulcher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 12:25 AM
Subject: Re: Gasless on Greenwood AV.
I and perhaps U did not see this part of the message...
>Just a SMALL correction. The trophy was for BEST IN SHOW as voted
>by the participants.-Tom True
Cause I only saw this...
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
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Anyway, "Best-of-Kind" kinna sounds like out of the 6 EV's...
oO(GEM, Roadster, VW Pickup, Porsche, Sparrow, Pair of Drag Bikes) 7
oO(Not including the scooters, bikes, and Bar Stool that were there)
Out of 7 EV's it was the best? (I picked the Bar Stool ;)
Steven S. Lough wrote:
> We had a GEM N.E.V. thanks to Tom True of EV Parts. And we also had
> Rodric Wildes Ford Roadster, which by the way WON a Trophy ! A big
> trophy! for I guess Best-of-Kind. Many thanks to Rodric of EV Parts,
> and Tom for bringing the car, and all the work that went into that.
It was actually "Best of Show"!
Out of the ~400 Customs, Classics, and exotic cars there;
the Yellow Electric Roadster was voted best of show!
.oO(Thats like Eminem(Rapper) winning a Country Music Award.)
I was thrilled, though strangely not all that surprised....
Rodric was there at the roadster with Don "Father Time" Crabtree
and his drag bikes just in front of it (they ran out of room for us).
Some motor head strolled up and began grilling Don on what kind of
tranny the roadster had, thinking it was his. As Don struggled for
the answer the grease monkey continued, I believe asking about the
rear end. I was gettin a little miffed when Rodric stepped in with,
It's got a something-such differential and watcha-who-wapper tranny.
It appeared that the smart mouth recognized these particular parts
and was a little taken back. So as he stood there baffled Rodric
hit him with the "Ya, and it does a 16 second 1/4 miles.". Over
the course of the next 60 seconds the Neanderthal struggled to
integrate this apparently unbelievable information. Searching both
Rodric and Don for the slightest smile or twinge of sarcasm. "NOooo."
he proclaimed, but Rodric reassured him that it would infact, and that
it wasn't even all that fast compaired to other more "specialized"
projects. I think a wheelie pulling mazda was mentioned. After a
few more minutes of trying to get to the bottom of this EV stuff
he left seeming rather convinced. Though I don't think we have a
new EV enthusiast, I know that there is one more Joe Hot Rodder
out there that now knows the truth. I wouldn't be surprised to see
him at a NEDRA EVent, Of course probably not till fuel gets a little
harder to find.
Anyway, I wanted to congratulate Rodric once again. And
thank Don for letting me ride the little yellow drag bike.
It was a blast and now I'm itchin to get an EV Commuter Bike,
maybe I can convert my ex500 or something.
L8r
Ryan
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Augh, yes, the Fuel Cell..
I've been playing with a small demonstration RFC (bi-directional) fuel
cell and metal-hydride storage for a little while now. Here's my take.
We all know that a PEMFC vehicle uses hydrogen to make electricity.
So instead of pb-a, li-ion, ni-mh you use a high pressure storage
tank, regulators, blowers for air O2 circulation, a whole slew of
control electronics, and of course the Proton Exchange Membrain
(fuel cell) itself. All of this just to replace the batteries.
Then instead of recharging the batteries from say your garage or
some camp site with common 110 or 220vac. Now you have to go to
a special refueling station and buy hydrogen, kinna like gasoline.
You still have to use a motor, controler, and all the standard stuff
that makes a BEV go, you've simply replaced the battery pack with an
even more complex and expencive battery that will cost the equivilant
of gasoline to continuousely refuel.
Of course the industry is racing to make Fuel Cells and Hydrogen happen,
because if they don't then we might just figure out that the EV1 and
such were already very practicle. If they don't set up a new "hydrogen
infrastructure" then people might just utilize the Grid that is already
in place and leave their buddies in the oil industry out of the picture.
Or worse, people might start using renewables like solar and wind! OH NO
Not to mention that an EV powerplant has only 1 moving part, as opposed
to the 100's of parts it takes to get rotational power out of an ICE
driveshaft. Which kind of powertrain do you think brings them more
"repeat business"? No oil to change, no air filters, no valve
adjustments, not much service to speak of.
Can't have that!
Better distract the masses before they catch onto this BEV thing...
Gosh, and I haven't even got into the effeciencies aspects.
Nor the environmental and ecological impacts.
Heck, I didn't even get to mention politicial agendas.
Just business looking out for it's own interests.
Do we really expect them to "do the right thing"?
- Get real.
Keep in mind, The Earch is a Closed System.
With some minor exceptions, like Solar Energy in.
If we used solar power for most of our energy needs, the
earth might still be as wonderous as it was before our arival.
L8r
Ryan
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On 1 Jul 2003 at 22:21, Doug Martin wrote:
> Anyone know of more suppliers/manufacturers of AC drive
> components?
Solectria, MA: http://www.solectria.com
Brusa, Switzerland: http://www.brusa.biz
EMS, Cincinnati OH: http://members.aol.com/evguru/evc2600.html
AC Electric Vehicles, Finland: http://www.acev.fi/
I've probably forgotten a bunch.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
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I have already installed the replacement 4 bank Dual Pro
charger, when I found one of my 3 bank chargers was now
malfunctioning.
Today I have just received the replacement 3 bank charger.
Though I wanted to bolt it in, I have to wait on that. Its
an easy installation as the chargers come with long acid
resistant lead cables that already have a ring connector
at their ends.
But I am taking my RV in to add a couple of upgrades in
preparation of desert living. Afterward I would like to
take a few days to check out RV parks I have had my eye
on. So I will be offline and away from keys for a few
days.
I am caught between my desire to check out all the
conductive charging in the LA or Sacramento area, to
living the simple life along the coast or in the
desert near the wind and solar generators, or the
developing h2 stations for the Palm Springs Bus line.
When I get back I am anxious to install the 3 bank
charger and run a through test on this system. I
would like to see
-does each Dual Pro SE bank really does push 10 amps
per 12 V string (two 6 v wet cells)
-what is the pfc value for these chargers
-how much heat does ban give off, etc.
I already know these small smart chargers are less
expensive than a Russco or K&W BC-20 charger, and
they are a 'no-brainer' for the EV driver. Their
3 stage charging, with a pulse start up, autoshut off,
and auto restart, makes them easy to leave connected
indefinitely. And because they charger across several
12 V strings of 6 V batteries, only the batteries that
need charging get the power they need, and the ones
that don't aren't cooked.
Remember these Dual Pro chargers are an off the shelf
charger for a fishing boat's trolling batteries (wet
cell, AGM, or gel).
I have a running dialoge with a Dual Pro rep. I hope to
set up my PC to capture the faxed specifications as a
tif image. That way I can share the info. I also hope
to get a charging curve graphic, similar to
http://geocities.com/evcharging/images/smallsmartchargercurves.jpg
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com
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