EV Digest 2897
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Battery Life vs Temp. Optimas....
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Windmill hood ornament
by "Crabb, David" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) FW: Battery Life vs Temp. Optimas....
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) Isolated Bad Boy Charger Usage
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Modular charging (was: Proper Charging!)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Windmill hood ornament
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: How to title a ground-up EV project
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: 2nd try - EMF shielding for radio reception - will this stuff work?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) NG3 schematic
by "paul compton (RRes-Roth)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: AGM as accessory batt?
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Timers, electrical 120V
by "Donald Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: 2nd try - EMF shielding for radio reception - will this stuff work?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Contactor/relay specing
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: How to title a ground-up EV project
by "amadare" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) OT: Trimming REs
by John Shelton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: B&D CMM 1000 electric lawn mower question
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Orbital Purple Haze Ready for Testing!
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Orbital Purple Haze Ready for Testing!
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: How to title a ground-up EV project
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: MB80, Second discharge
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Orbital Purple Haze Ready for Testing!
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Battery Life vs Temp. Optimas....
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: AGM as accessory batt?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Windmill hood ornament
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) MB80, second bulk charge
by fred whitridge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Just a comment from below, Alan did the 30k miles on the Optimas while
towing a charging trailer. The actual EV range on Optimas is similar to
other sealed leaded batteries in the average 7k-12k mile range.
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 3:03 PM
Subject: RE: Battery Life vs Temp. Optimas....
> Based on information about Edward Ang's Sparrow:
> 13,700 miles on 13 battery, 156v pack using Excide Orbital batteries.
>
> If Edward's usage was about 160 wh/m, then the calculations show as:
> average = 160 wh/m
> total dist = 13700 miles
> pack size = 156v
> performance = 160wh/m / 156v = just over 1 ah/m
> energy used = 13700*.16/13 = 168.6kwh per battery
>
> Now that's the type of value we need to be shooting for...
> -Ed Thorpe
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ed Thorpe
> Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2003 6:19 PM
> To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
> Subject: RE: Battery Life vs Temp. Optimas....
>
> Otmar,
>
> My Sparrow easily does 150wh/m when driving reasonably. But I've mostly
been
> commuting the diamond lane at 70-75mph, so my performance for this pack I
> just replaced was:
> average wh/mile after recharging = 185
> total mileage = ~6900 miles
> pack size = 156v (YTs)
> average performance = 185wh/mile / 156v = 1.2 ah/mile
>
> energy used by each Optima = 7000*.185/13 = 99.6kwh
> Still have life on the batteries, but one was dropping out after about
12-13
> miles on my 18 mile commute leg. Also, battery pack was never really
"new" -
> set had been shelved for 2-3+ years before I got them. Now I have a brand
> new set and going to see how well they hold up.
>
> BR,
> Ed Thorpe
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Otmar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2003 3:24 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Battery Life vs Temp. Optimas....
>
>
> >evranger wrote:
> >>
> >> John,
> >>
> >> I'm curious about how many total miles you have on your 7 year old
YTs?
> On
> >> my 3 year olds, the best I've seen is 15,000. Worst was 6,000.
> >>
> >> Dave
> >
> >I have 7000 miles on them.
> >
> >...John
>
> In my case, for my 914 CAPOPE, I use an average of 360 wh/mile when I
> drive. This is just taken off the Emeter on several average drives
> where I use about 1.5 ah/mile and I have a 240V pack. (1.5 x 240 =
> 360) The car has 20 Optimas.
> I have 4000 miles on my Optimas. They do not have battery monitoring
> or a smart charger. (I use a Variac and a timer from McMaster
> http://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/108/html/0781.html ) My Optimas are
> starting to drop off now. My math says that I have run 72kwh through
> each battery. If I used less energy, or had more batteries I would expect
> more life.
>
> I remember Alan Cocconi claiming to get 30,000 miles on a set of 28
> Optimas in his Honda. This is not surprising since I think his car
> only uses about 130 wh/mile. If he averages 130wh/mile then I'm
> calculating that he gets 140kwh per optima before they wear out. He
> also has sophisticated battery equalization, temperature regulation
> and relatively low current draws.
>
> Anyone else have real life numbers on their Optimas? I would be
> curious to know the mileage, number of batteries and the average (not
> best possible, but what you normally do) energy per mile and the
> relative condition of the batteries.
>
> -Otmar-
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Maybe that is his slick way of not paying the 100 bux. :)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 5:46 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: Windmill hood ornament
>
>
> Lee,
>
> Do you mean September 1 "2003"? Otherwise it's not worth our
> time for 10
> months past the deadline....
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ralph Merwin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 2:36 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Windmill hood ornament
>
>
> Lee Hart writes:
> >
> > Entries must be photos or other documentation of a real
> working model,
> > not just an idea or paper sketch. The contest closes
> September 1, 2002,
> > and I will judge the winner.
>
> So the first challenge is to build a working time machine before we
> submit our hood ornament designs...
>
> Ralph
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would think that individual daily commute distances(thus DOD) are an important
figure in these computations.
What is Ed Ang's daily commute distance? What was Alan's average DOD?
Ed Thorpe is at 6900 miles so far, but he has an 18 mile each way commute (right?). If
his daily commute were only 13 miles round trip his pack would still be sufficient and
he may be able to get about 1000 miles, or 160 kwh per Optima also.
For Thorpe's needs the pack is dead, but for Ang's needs it's only half dead.
(speculation)
I forget, how far did John Lussmeyer get on his pack, and how far was his commute, and
what was the Sparrows range when he declared the pack dead.?
Stay Charged!
Hump
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Hanson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 9:53 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Battery Life vs Temp. Optimas....
>
>
> Just a comment from below, Alan did the 30k miles on the Optimas while
> towing a charging trailer. The actual EV range on Optimas is similar to
> other sealed leaded batteries in the average 7k-12k mile range.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 3:03 PM
> Subject: RE: Battery Life vs Temp. Optimas....
>
>
> > Based on information about Edward Ang's Sparrow:
> > 13,700 miles on 13 battery, 156v pack using Excide Orbital batteries.
> >
> > If Edward's usage was about 160 wh/m, then the calculations show as:
> > average = 160 wh/m
> > total dist = 13700 miles
> > pack size = 156v
> > performance = 160wh/m / 156v = just over 1 ah/m
> > energy used = 13700*.16/13 = 168.6kwh per battery
> >
> > Now that's the type of value we need to be shooting for... -Ed Thorpe
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Ed Thorpe
> > Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2003 6:19 PM
> > To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
> > Subject: RE: Battery Life vs Temp. Optimas....
> >
> > Otmar,
> >
> > My Sparrow easily does 150wh/m when driving reasonably. But I've
> > mostly
> been
> > commuting the diamond lane at 70-75mph, so my performance for this
> > pack I just replaced was: average wh/mile after recharging = 185
> > total mileage = ~6900 miles
> > pack size = 156v (YTs)
> > average performance = 185wh/mile / 156v = 1.2 ah/mile
> >
> > energy used by each Optima = 7000*.185/13 = 99.6kwh
> > Still have life on the batteries, but one was dropping out after about
> 12-13
> > miles on my 18 mile commute leg. Also, battery pack was never really
> "new" -
> > set had been shelved for 2-3+ years before I got them. Now I have a
> > brand new set and going to see how well they hold up.
> >
> > BR,
> > Ed Thorpe
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Otmar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2003 3:24 PM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: Battery Life vs Temp. Optimas....
> >
> >
> > >evranger wrote:
> > >>
> > >> John,
> > >>
> > >> I'm curious about how many total miles you have on your 7 year old
> YTs?
> > On
> > >> my 3 year olds, the best I've seen is 15,000. Worst was 6,000.
> > >>
> > >> Dave
> > >
> > >I have 7000 miles on them.
> > >
> > >...John
> >
> > In my case, for my 914 CAPOPE, I use an average of 360 wh/mile when I
> > drive. This is just taken off the Emeter on several average drives
> > where I use about 1.5 ah/mile and I have a 240V pack. (1.5 x 240 =
> > 360) The car has 20 Optimas.
> > I have 4000 miles on my Optimas. They do not have battery monitoring
> > or a smart charger. (I use a Variac and a timer from McMaster
> > http://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/108/html/0781.html ) My Optimas are
> > starting to drop off now. My math says that I have run 72kwh through
> > each battery. If I used less energy, or had more batteries I would
> > expect more life.
> >
> > I remember Alan Cocconi claiming to get 30,000 miles on a set of 28
> > Optimas in his Honda. This is not surprising since I think his car
> > only uses about 130 wh/mile. If he averages 130wh/mile then I'm
> > calculating that he gets 140kwh per optima before they wear out. He
> > also has sophisticated battery equalization, temperature regulation
> > and relatively low current draws.
> >
> > Anyone else have real life numbers on their Optimas? I would be
> > curious to know the mileage, number of batteries and the average (not
> > best possible, but what you normally do) energy per mile and the
> > relative condition of the batteries.
> >
> > -Otmar-
> >
Stay Charged!
Hump
--
__________________________________________________________
Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com
http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup
CareerBuilder.com has over 400,000 jobs. Be smarter about your job search
http://corp.mail.com/careers
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Try a microwave transformer from a large 1500w feeding the diode bridge. You
can knock out the magnetic shunt and either re-wind the secondary or take
another primary from a same type microwave and remove the I off the E core
and install. For me it was easier to rewind the secondary with #12 wire. I
did on my 89' Metro years ago. (Not PFC though but could feed a PFC-20.)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 2:42 AM
Subject: Re: Bad Boy Charger Usage
> Charger is pushing 6000 watts into battery in the first case. The meter is
> reading 6000 watts because only one diode is conducting at a time. The
> current is 25 amps per leg times two legs times 120 volts is 6000 watts.
>
> A half wave device is only pushing 3000 watts because only one diode is
> conducting from one leg. The current is 25 amps per leg times one leg
times
> 120 volts is 3000 watts. This will open a 20 amp breaker very quickly.
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 11:15 AM
> Subject: Re: Bad Boy Charger Usage
>
>
> > Charging amperage was measured with a simple analog meter on the
charger.
> >
> > I guess I missed the Super Bad Boy charger where there is a diode on
each
> > hot leg, the two hot legs are tied together on the DC side of the diodes
> > and the neutral is used as the negative to the battery pack.
> > Charger registers 50 amps to the 120 volt battery pack.
> > Is the house meter reading 50 amps at 240 volts because both legs of the
> > 240 volt outlet are being used to charge 120 volt battery or something
> > else ?
> >
> > Regular Bad Boy has a diode on only one hot leg, either the hot leg of
a
> > regular 120 volt outlet or on one hot leg of a 240 volt outlet, and the
> > neutral is used as the negative to the 120 volt battery pack.
> > Is the house meter reading 50 amps x 120 volts, 50 amps x 240 volts, or
> > something else ?
> >
> > Thanks.
> > Menlo Park III,
> > Bill
> >
> > On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 19:32:49 -0700 Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > writes:
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] asked:
> > > > How much electricity does a Half Wave Bad Boy Charger use to
> > > charge
> > > > a 120 volt battery pack at 50 amps from a 240 volt AC outlet for
> > > > one hour?
> > > >
> > > > How much electricity does a Full Bridge Bad Boy Charger use to
> > > > charge a 120 volt battery pack at 50 amps from a 240 volt AC
> > > outlet
> > > > for one hour?
> > > >
> > > > Both chargers use one 120 volt AC hot leg and the neutral.
> > > >
> > > > Do they both only use 120 volts x 50 amps or 6000 watts plus what
> > > > ever is lost in the heating of the cord from the outlet to the
> > > > meter on the charger?
> > >
> > > The current in and current out of a 'bad boy' charger are identicaly
> > > --
> > > both their magnitude and waveform. A halfwave 'bad boy' draws all
> > > its
> > > current from just one half cycle; a fullwave draws it from both half
> > > cycles.
> > >
> > > The current is all concentrated in a narrow high-current pulse about
> > > in
> > > the middle of the AC line cycle. When you say "50 amp", you need to
> > > specify how it is measured; peak, average, RMS, etc. A circuit
> > > breaker
> > > responds to RMS current; charging batteries respond to average
> > > current.
> > > In a fullwave 'bad boy', 50 amps RMS is around 30 amps average, and
> > > over
> > > 100 amps peak.
> > >
> > > > How does the electric company house meter record the usage?
> > > > Does it record 50 amps for 120 volts or 50 amps for 240 volts?
> > >
> > > The power meters people have on their homes measure true power in
> > > watts;
> > > actual voltage times actual amps. Thus, it doesn't matter if you
> > > draw
> > > power from only one leg of a 240vac service, or if the current
> > > waveform
> > > or power factor are bad. You still only pay for the real power used.
> > >
> > > Commercial and industrial power meters *do* keep track of power
> > > factor
> > > and waveform distortion. The power company charges these customers a
> > > premium price for bad power factor.
> > > --
> > > Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> > > 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> > > Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> > > leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in -- Leonard
> > > Cohen
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________________________________________
> > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
> > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
> > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> What is a problem to shut off mains if *any* of modular chargers fail?
> Yes, you will be left uncharged, but it's no different than if your
> only bulk charger fails should that happen.
It certainly can be done. It's just that many people assume their nice
new modular chargers won't fail, so they don't include any kind of
system to detect a failure.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ralph Merwin wrote:
>
> Lee Hart writes:
> >
> > Entries must be photos or other documentation of a real working model,
> > not just an idea or paper sketch. The contest closes September 1, 2002,
> > and I will judge the winner.
>
> So the first challenge is to build a working time machine before we
> submit our hood ornament designs...
Ooops; sorry about that. Should say Sept 1, 2003 of course!
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Crabb, David wrote:
> will he be able to write anything off of your taxes, since it is
> a 'new' vehicle?
There is a $2000 federal income tax credit if he manages to complete it
before the end of 2003. Next year it drops to $1500, and I believe keeps
dropping $500 per year until it's gone. We can thank our far-sighted
President and his party for dis-encouraging EVs.
All that matters is that it is titled as a new vehicle. It could
literally be new, or just newly assembled from old components and
re-titled. For example, I got the $2000 tax credit on my 1980 ComutaVan,
because I bought it with a "salvage" title and re-titled it in 1993 as a
"1993 Assembled Electric Car" (that's what the state of Michigan called
it).
The inspection process was rigorous, but no crash tests or other drastic
measures were needed. Each state has its own list of mandatory features.
In Michigan, one of the screwy ones was that they require an exhaust
system. I actually had to bolt a piece of exhaust pipe to my electric
car (which went nowhere and did nothing) to pass the inspection.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seth Dallob wrote:
> If I slathered this stuff on my controller, would it improve my radio
> reception to any noticeable effect?
> http://www.lessemf.com/paint.html (about 1/3 the way down the page)
Probably not. All this paint is doing is adding a slightly conductive
coating, which provides some shielding for plastic cases. Any metal
case, or even the thinnest piece of tinfoil or metal windowscreen has
better shielding properties.
Your controller and motor are already in metal cases. They are creating
the noise, but it is not radiating from them because of the metal case.
The noise is almost certainly radiating from the wires connected to
them.
So, a much more effective way to reduce noise is to run the wires inside
metal conduit or braided shields. It also helps to keep opposite
polarity wires paired together, not widely separated.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've put up a partial schematic of the Zivan NG3 control card at
http://members.aol.com/evconsulting
It's in a .DWG format (the only useful export format from Protel), but if you can't
read that someone has converted it to .pdf and put in in the files section of the
Yahoo Sparrow group.
I'd appreciate anyone who has an NG3 lying around checking for errors and ommisions.
Paul Compton
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Time for an accessory battery story.
I ran for over a year with a 30 ah wheelchair battery (gel style) as an acc.
battery in a total loss system, using the "standard 12V, 10 amp" charger you
mention. Seemed to work fine. After I got a DC/DC, I kept this battery,
but my DC/DC has the same problem as the Todds - when switched off at the
pack, it'll still slowly drain the acc. battery unless you disconnect it
when the car is off. I've since added a relay that takes care of that, but
in the first few weeks of having my DC/DC and getting it dialed in, the
battery got deeply cycled 5 or 6 times.
When charging it back up, I noticed the battery would shoot up in voltage
immediately (acting like it was charged) but drop like a rock under load.
Turns out that the charger was cooking it, as the gel had really dried out.
I removed the cover over the vent caps, and removed them one by one to add
water to the cells. I still do it every few months. The battery is
perfoming just like new. You could tell which cells had been damaged - the
gel looked dry and cracked.
The trick is to make sure your charger follows the algorithms recommended by
the battery manufacturer. I didn't know it, but there would be a little
time in each charge cycle where the "standard" charger I used would
overcharge, thus drying out the gel and causing the problems. It happened
more on the deeper cycles, which made the problem much more apparent. It
actually was worse when I used the "deep cycle" setting. Note - this was a
Schauer charger, not sure of model number, had settings for manual, auto,
and deep cycle auto. Seems OK for floodeds. The motto is get a charger
designed for gel or AGM to use with those types of batteries.
AGM's apparently act the same way, as several on the list have resurrected
them by adding water, (though by this time usually some damage has already
been done). They are harder to add water to, though.
An acc. battery is not a very difficult application for an AGM or gel that
is properly cared for. Ask John W. How many years has he had that Optima
acc. battery in his car with no problems? He posted about that a while
back.
Anyway, yes, they should work fine if you get the DC/DC voltage dialed in
correctly or if you use a correct charger with a total loss system.
-----Original Message-----
From: Seth Murray [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 11:08 PM
To: EV List
Subject: AGM as accessory batt?
hi all,
I know in a series string application AGMs will eventually fail if
charged to too high a voltage. however, if a 'normal' car alternator's
voltage regulator is designed to charge at 14.4 volts, in theory, could
you use an AGM as your accessory battery without killing it quickly?
Also, is is OK to charge an AGM or gel battery from a normal "12
volt/10 amp" style battery charger?
Seth
--
QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION
http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
IMPORTANT - THIS MESSAGE (INCLUDING ANY ATTACHMENTS) IS INTENDED ONLY FOR
THE USE OF THE INDIVIDUAL OR ENTITY TO WHICH IT IS ADDRESSED, AND MAY
CONTAIN INFORMATION THAT IS PRIVILEGED, CONFIDENTIAL AND EXEMPT FROM
DISCLOSURE UNDER APPLICABLE LAW. IF YOU ARE NOT THE INTENDED RECIPIENT, YOU
SHOULD DELETE THIS MESSAGE IMMEDIATELY AND YOU ARE HEREBY NOTIFIED THAT ANY
READING, DISSEMINATION, DISTRIBUTION OR COPYING OF THIS MESSAGE, OR THE
TAKING OF ANY ACTION BASED ON IT IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED. THANK YOU.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you're on a "normal" household meter and just trying to help out the city
manage it's load, starting at 9:00 p.m. should be helpful enough. If you're
on a time-of-use (TOU) meter, do the math to determine whether a timer would
make sense.
If you do use a timer, don't just start at 10:00 p.m. You'll help even more
if you wait until later in the night, remembering that you want to keep the
entire charge time in the "meat" of the lower demand period.
Donald Brown
Atlanta, GA
----- Original Message -----
From: "tom peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 7:22 PM
Subject: Timers, electrical 120V
Hi all, does anyone know of a timer I can plug my Citicar into. The city I
live in states its off peak time is 10:00 PM to 11:00 AM. So I want to
charge during that time. I have to get up at 5:30, to avoid heat of the
day, so I retire by 9:00. Thanks tom
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Hanson wrote:
> The best way to reduce EMI is to make the wires from the controller
> to the motor as short as possible and ty-rap all to-from large
> cables together to cancel opposing fields under the right side of
> the vehicle and all control wiring under the left side.
To illustrate this; my LecHart EV has its propulsion wiring all run in
pairs, and the long pair from the rear battery box is inside metal
conduit. The result is that I can listen to AM radio on the stronger
stations without interference, though there is noise on weaker stations.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Chapman wrote:
> These are definitely true contactors... Basically a solenoid with
> a bar (T formation) with a contact at each end that pulls down on
> a contact at each side... see if I can increase the contact spacing
Yes, this can be done to increase the voltage rating. However, it then
requires more solenoid voltage to pull it in with the bigger gap.
> and there even might be enough room under the cover to place a
> couple of magnets for blowouts. How do mbos work, NS poles
> straddling the contacts vertical spacing, one pole straddling
> the vc
Magnetic blowouts place the North and south poles of a magnet at right
angles to the direction of the arc. For example, if the contacts are one
above the other, so it arcs vertically between them, then the N and S
poles of the magnet go to the left and right of the contact.
Electrons must travel in a curved path in a magnetic field. The stronger
the magnets, the sharper the curve. The curved path is longer than a
straight path; so in effect, the contact spacing is larger.
However, this may also concentrate the arc at the edges of the contact,
and so burn it away much faster there. Contacts designed for magnetic
blowouts have a large "shoulder" or other projection so the arcing
occurs there. The neat thing is that now your arcing is destroying a
part of the contact that isn't used to make the actual electrical
contact when it is closed.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lee Hart
> Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 11:39 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: How to title a ground-up EV project
> measures were needed. Each state has its own list of
> mandatory features.
> In Michigan, one of the screwy ones was that they require an exhaust
> system. I actually had to bolt a piece of exhaust pipe to my electric
> car (which went nowhere and did nothing) to pass the inspection.
That is COMPLETELY insane. I hope you gave the inspector an earfull
regarding that completely inappropriate regulation. Granted, books
evolve slowly, but for the one doing the inspection to require you to
bolt a piece of tailpipe on to pass is asinine.
Bobby
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All,
Awhile back someone mentioned the importance of trimming the old email
off of your reply. On top of the many good reasons he listed for
trimming lengthy replies, another good reason to do this is for those of
us who use Linux and the most popular e-mail program for Linux, Ximian.
I receive the EV list in digest form. With Windows' Outlook, the digest
comes as several attachments that show up as several individual icons.
This makes it easy to select the e-mails you want to read and you don't
need to scroll down to the rest of whatever is at the lower portion of
the e-mail. Ximian does not offer that option (or at least I haven't
figured out how to do this. Any suggestions fellow Linux users?). With
Ximian, the entire digest has to be viewed as one long e-mail. So you
wind up scrolling forever. It's just a convenience/courtesy thing.
Thanks guys.
John David
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have had mine apart and there is lots of room to put anything in there you
want to. When my go dead I am going to put in a couple of the surplus 26
ahr Hawkers, then I am going to put in a new charge connector so that I can
charge at a higher rate. The charger that comes built in takes several
hours to get a decent charge. Sometimes in the spring when the grass is
tall and wet, I can't finish my whole lawn and have to wait a day.
The original batteries are marked indicating that the initial charge rate
should not be above 4 amps. I'm not sure why they use the term 'Initial
Charge', but I have been hesitant to charge them at more then 4 amps, so I
have never tried to quick charge them.
I have mowed with an ammeter attached and have never seen higher than about
28amps being pulled with the average being around 25amps, so any battery
that can handle this current level should be fine. They have a built in
auto-reset 40 amp circuit breaker.
damon
From: "Cliff Rassweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "EV List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: B&D CMM 1000 electric lawn mower question
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 15:36:37 -0400
Hi,
The batteries on my Black and Decker electric mower are finally giving out.
Anybody have a suggestion on best replacement batteries?
Thanks,
Cliff
_________________________________________________________________
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Wayland wrote:
>
> Hello to All (calling MadMan),
>
> John Wayland wrote:
>
> > Hello to All,
> >
> > Rich Rudman wrote:
> >
> > > Hey John,
> > > Plasma boy!!
> > > Can you supply ONE of these units for abuse testing. The results will be
> > > published on the Manzanita Micro Website for all of us to view.
> >
> > Tell you what...I'm on it tomorrow. I'll stop by and suggest this to my Exide
> > contact, and
> > we'll see where it leads. They just might be into doing this, as they seem to be
> > very
> > interested in having real hard data on just how well these puppies perform.
> >
> > See Ya......John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
>
> Well, it's a couple days past, but the deed is done....Rich, I have a brand spank'n
> new
> Orbital Purple Haze '34XCD' here for you and Mr. Smalley to test. Exide here in
> Portland is
> all for you guys putting it through the wringer and posting the results. Get in
> touch with me
> and let's get started.
>
> See Ya...John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
OH goodie!!!!
Oh crud! Dad is on the way up for the 4th, like in transit... so I
suppose I shoulda done one last pass of E-mail last night..
I am sure I will be down there in the next couple of weeks.
We should see if we can make a chart that has some Crowd pleasing
graphics on it so Mr. Exide can show it off and excite Joe 6 pack. 1400
amp should get even the
V-8 Diesel guys to head snap.
Anyone coming North from Portland???
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joe Smalley wrote:
>
> What a week.
>
> I almost get done ding my quarterly run through my stash of AGMs and expect
> to do an upgrade to the old system and I get two more victims. I guess there
> is no rest for the cycler this month.
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>Joe lets get that 8 station cycler put together.
What part needs to get bought first?
I don't go out and buy TVs and steros, and DVDs, and CD, I aM NOT
normal... I buy Data logging gear for Ev toys, I still get giddy when I
have some new battery to play with,
geez I am hopeless.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> > measures were needed. Each state has its own list of
> > mandatory features.
> > In Michigan, one of the screwy ones was that they require an exhaust
> > system. I actually had to bolt a piece of exhaust pipe to my electric
> > car (which went nowhere and did nothing) to pass the inspection.
>
> That is COMPLETELY insane. I hope you gave the inspector an earfull
> regarding that completely inappropriate regulation. Granted, books
> evolve slowly, but for the one doing the inspection to require you to
> bolt a piece of tailpipe on to pass is asinine.
>
I agree. Hey Lee, did you ask to actually see the rule that requires
this? When I registered my truck the lady tried to charge me a "Clean
Air" tax. She said "All vehicles have to pay this tax", so I said "Show
me". So she pulled out the book and it said all vehicles must pay a
clean air tax, including alternate fuel vehicles...except electric or
solar powered vehicles. The double take and dumbfounded look on her
face was priceless.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
fred whitridge wrote:
>
> Hopefully a graph of my second discharge can be seen at:
> http://home.ix.netcom.com/~fw/Discharge1-2.jpg or in the Evercel yahoo
> group files section. My sophisticated naming system is the battery
> number before the hyphen and the cycle number after. Thanks to those
> who have given me Excel tips and examples.
>
> This is a good news, bad news story.
>
> GOOD NEWS: Pulled out 71.3 Amp Hours with discharge and charge for the
> first cycle absolutely per the company's reccomendation. Not bad for a
> 64Ah nameplate. But not as good as the poor soldier who's gone out to
> visit Uncle Joe/Uncle Rich for a little PFC high rate spa treatment.
> When I extended the 4amp finish charge on that MB80 until the voltage
> dropped (per Rich's suggestion) I got 79Amp hours on the next
> discharge.
--
Fred, On your graph please continue tracking the temp rise, and keep on
until it peaks, this will show the heat build up, and extraction times.
AND the 4 amps was for a MB100 NOT a 80. I bet it's more like 3 amp.
The important this is just a little run a way, not much.
That 104 F limit just about eliminates this battery from the Southern
lands this time of year.
Joe and I need to show you a graph that has the voltage sag as the
battery comes to full charge. As soon as you see it, that's just enough.
This MB80 battery you are testing is making almost the same amps as our
MB100.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich/John-
I'm heading north to Redmond tomorrow morning.
I've got room and could deliver.
Let me know.
-Myles Twete, Portland
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Rich Rudman
> Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 9:38 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Orbital Purple Haze Ready for Testing!
>
>
> John Wayland wrote:
> >
> > Hello to All (calling MadMan),
> >
> > John Wayland wrote:
> >
> > > Hello to All,
> > >
> > > Rich Rudman wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hey John,
> > > > Plasma boy!!
> > > > Can you supply ONE of these units for abuse testing.
> The results will be
> > > > published on the Manzanita Micro Website for all of us to view.
> > >
> > > Tell you what...I'm on it tomorrow. I'll stop by and
> suggest this to my Exide contact, and
> > > we'll see where it leads. They just might be into doing
> this, as they seem to be very
> > > interested in having real hard data on just how well
> these puppies perform.
> > >
> > > See Ya......John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
> >
> > Well, it's a couple days past, but the deed is
> done....Rich, I have a brand spank'n new
> > Orbital Purple Haze '34XCD' here for you and Mr. Smalley to
> test. Exide here in Portland is
> > all for you guys putting it through the wringer and posting
> the results. Get in touch with me
> > and let's get started.
> >
> > See Ya...John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
> OH goodie!!!!
>
> Oh crud! Dad is on the way up for the 4th, like in transit... so I
> suppose I shoulda done one last pass of E-mail last night..
>
> I am sure I will be down there in the next couple of weeks.
> We should see if we can make a chart that has some Crowd pleasing
> graphics on it so Mr. Exide can show it off and excite Joe 6
> pack. 1400
> amp should get even the
> V-8 Diesel guys to head snap.
>
>
> Anyone coming North from Portland???
> --
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
> www.manzanitamicro.com
> 1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just a comment from below, Alan did the 30k miles on the Optimas while
towing a charging trailer. The actual EV range on Optimas is similar to
other sealed leaded batteries in the average 7k-12k mile range.
Now that's a important bit of information! I missed that.
Do you happen to have a link to the quote? I was assuming it was pure
battery...
If that's true then I'm getting just as many wh through the batteries
as he is, but I'm doing it without monitoring and with a bad boy
charger... Hmmm. I didn't expect that.
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com
Mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seth wrote:
> The 12volt/10 amp [chargers] can be really bad. I see them go to
> over 17V.
Most cheap chargers are nothing but a transformer and rectifier. The
output voltage is not controlled; it is simply the peak of your AC line
voltage times the transformer turns ratio. The only way to safely use
one of these chargers for your AGM or gel cell battery is to manualy
watch the voltage, and turn it off when it gets too high.
> aren't Hawkers and Optimas designed to be installed in ICE vehicles?
Some are; the Optima "Red Top" for example. But most AGMs or gel cells
would be destroyed by a typical car's alternator/regulator.
> What I see for modern ICE alternator output is ususally a voltage
> above 14.0, like 14.2-14.4 for a time, then tapering a bit to 14.0
> to 13.6 after a few tens of minutes.
An alternator's voltage "regulator" is extremely crude and inaccurate.
They are, after all, built to be as cheap as possible. Not only that,
but the wiring between the alternator and battery (and wherever you are
measuring the voltage) is of substandard size and has excessive voltage
drops, again to save cost.
By dumb luck, you might get an alternator that has a low enough voltage,
and your car has enough wiring resistance to naturally limit the voltage
to the battery. In this case, an AGM could survive. But I wouldn't count
on it!
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
1sclunn wrote:
> You summed it up well. Now, where are those TV reporters?
> I wasn't thinking that I qualified, but as you have put up the money,
> you can make the rules :-) Is it to late for any other high rollers
> to add to the prize?
No, of course not. Contributions gladly accepted.
> Could I be a judge of $100 also?
If I make an entry too, then I will obviously need another judge. But
people might think it's a little unfair to have a judge who also enters
the contest. So if I make an entry, we'll pick someone else to be the
judge. (Any suggestions?)
> entries can be seen at www.grassrootsev.com in the event's section
> (if Jon H has this working).
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
More breathtaking news from the cycling front (holler when you get bored
and I'll stop posting all this...)
My second bulk charge graph should be up at:
http://home.ix.netcom.com/~fw/bulk1-2.jpg
and in the Evercel Yahoo group files.
This is the first time I've seen anything remotely endothermic about
these batts: TempC was 31 at the beginning and 29C at the end. This
batt hit the overvoltage point at 376 minutes, or 10 before the maximum
timeout. 61.39 Ah went into the batt.
I spoke with Elio at the company again today who didn't seem too keen on
letting the temp run wild on discharge and suggested a 50C limit.
Hadn't programmed my cycler to stop at over temp but I guess I shall do
so. Also heard from a non-Evercel battery guru that maybe I should be
stopping discharge at lots higher than 9.6v on these conditioning
cycles, like up at 12v for the first few. Any thoughts? Those are
going to be mighty shallow cycles. I also wasn't handling the finish
charge quite right and have heard the most conflicting opinions on this
phase. Again to RTFM "Constant Voltage charge at 15.8volts to i=3amps or
for 60 minutes whichever comes first." Any thoughts? Shall now capture
and plot a finish charge as my prior 4amps for 60minutes was exceedingly
dull to look at. Alledgedly there is going to be some perceptible
taper. i also want to look at the temp effect Rich has alluded to.
Rich: Shall try to implement your suggestion on logging temps after the
discharge shutdown. I find programming like carpentry and EV's. Once
you've built it you know what you'd LIKE it to be. Am vigorously
overhauling my software which is tough since I only have one piece of
hardware to run it on and that's busy cycling....perhaps you know the
feeling?
--- End Message ---
