EV Digest 2899
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Wall Wart Modular Charging
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: How to title a ground-up EV project
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Eee Vee One Fun
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: AOL 8.0 (OT)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5) Re: Isolated Bad Boy Charger Usage
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: How to title a ground-up EV project
by "Bryan Avery" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Lifting batteries
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Wall Wart Modular Charging
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Eee Vee One Fun
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) 6 hours of high voltage hammering.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Lifting batteries
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: MB80, second bulk charge
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: alternators
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Windmill hood ornament
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Isolated Bad Boy Charger Usage
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: 6 hours of high voltage hammering.
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) 'Isolated' Bad Boy Charger???
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: 6 hours of high voltage hammering.
by "Tom Hudson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: 6 hours of high voltage hammering.
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: How to title a ground-up EV project
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Wall Wart Modular Charging
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Wall Wart Modular Charging
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Isolated Bad Boy Charger Usage
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) For that Classy look on your cabling
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: 'Isolated' Bad Boy Charger???
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Monitoring Pack current
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: 'Isolated' Bad Boy Charger???
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I just picked up a bunch of NIB 13V DC Wall Warts. While pondering what to
do with `em I started thinking they might make a practical (cheap) approach
to modular charging. They are only rated @ 10.4 watts so I can see that one
per battery would probably not be too useful. But what if a fellow broke
them out of their cases and used say 4 per batt? With the increased cooling
might even up the output amperage? Probably not efficient enough tho huh? I
think we went over this a few years back but all I seem to remember was that
the WWs that I found then were all too expensive. Opinions? DC.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The real driving force behind the recent "success" of commercial EVs
was the California mandate. The California legislative branch is
dominated by democrats, and California has a democrat governor. Why
did they let the EV mandate lapse? We can thank California's
far-sighted governor and his party for dis-encouraging EVs.
<dons abestos, let the fireworks begin!>
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ...
> There is a $2000 federal income tax credit if he manages to
> complete it
> before the end of 2003. Next year it drops to $1500, and I believe
> keeps
> dropping $500 per year until it's gone. We can thank our
> far-sighted
> President and his party for dis-encouraging EVs.
> ...
=====
__________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I rented an EV1 for the 3rd time. I just popped on
http://www.evrentals.com, and picked it up at Budget at LAX.
The EV1 is surprisingly fast. It is just a tad sluggish right off the
line, but really scoots from about 5 mph to 30 mph, and still pretty
quick above 30 mph. Excellent traction control insures a good launch
every time. It is about a 0 to 60 in the high 7�s car, and does the
1/4 in about 16 seconds (but it is speed limited to 80 mph). So it is
not the greatest 1/4 mile machine, but excellent in the stoplight to
stoplight mode.
Mind you, the below digitally simulated experiences were only from 0
to the speed limit, none of this 100+ mph stuff. Over the course of a
week here are my encounters:
I put the car on the charger near the Seal Beach pier. I had lunch at
Ruby�s at the end of the pier. It was really enjoyable, ocean views,
good food, good service, and one of the world�s best and rarest cars.
The only downside was being on a business trip away from my family.
Going to my hotel that night, a rusty, banged up Honda Accord was
next to me and started revving his motor. He is revved to about 4
grand. The light turns green, he dumps the clutch, and his tires let
out a short yelp, like someone had stepped on a dog�s tail. The EV1
had him by a car length by the other side of the intersection. Poor
guy probably didn�t know what hit him, probably thought he was going
to crush something with golf cart performance.
I decide to cruise Beach Boulevard, trolling for victims. Didn�t
catch many lights (for a change I was hitting everything green!),
when finally I lined up with a Ford truck. The EV1 was far enough
ahead I wondered for a moment if he was even trying. It is certainly
fast enough, though, I believe that may have been his best try.
Third night: A new, stock looking Acura Integra was in the left lane,
and I was in the right lane. Light goes green, and WHEEEEEEEEEEEEE
goes the EV1, ahead by a fender at the other side of the
intersection, and then I had to turn to get on the freeway.
Fourth night: I troll for victims on Coast Highway. I met a brand new
Lexus with low profile tires. The light goes green, both cars take
off at the same time, and he immediately is ahead by a fender. The
EV1 hits its powerband and pulls a fender ahead of the Lexus. The
Lexus inches forward, and is threatening to pull even at about 35 mph
when he suddenly hits his brakes and turns off, sealing his defeat.
I�m impressed with the EV1! I�ll bet the guy�s girlfriend in the
Lexus was impressed, too!
I had dinner that night with my parents, and dragged my dad�s
minivan. I shot ahead, slowed, and shot past him again by 40 mph. OK,
so it wasn�t an even match, but I love getting pressed back in my
seat!
On my final day, going to work, I see a 4th generation Pontiac
Firebird. Finally, some real competition! I catch a light with him,
and edge forward a couple times, signaling my intent. Light turns
green, the EV1 takes off like a rocket, but the Firebird doesn�t
bite. I slow, get even, gun it. He passively motors along at the same
slow speed. Then I catch him at the next light. He must know by now
it is time to pit 275 horsepower powered by exploding dinosaurs
against 137 kiloWatts powered by voltaged electrons. We get another
light together. I grip the wheel a bit tighter. Light goes green, the
EV1 quickly whirs ahead, and he is driving like a grandma! How is
that for a switch, I�m driving a green car in race mode, and he is
driving a racecar in economy mode.
All is not lost, the next light has me next to a black 2 door Neon,
with a hood bulge, rear wing, and an exhaust. The EV1 immediately
took a 1/2 car lead, and held this lead up to 55 mph.
Another neat benefit of the EV1 is it is an official California Clean
Air Vehicle. This let me use the carpool lanes, even though I was by
myself. Taking the car on its final trip, to LAX to return it, I was
cruising along steadily in the carpool lane. I head this roaring
beside me. It is a big Toyota SUV (Landcruiser maybe?) with low
profile tires. Why do people put low profile tires on SUVs? Maybe
they are hoping the extra traction will help them flip more easily?
The Toyota is flooring it, leans it over to change lanes, and guns
ahead. I silently and smoothly pass the Toyota a minute or two later.
The Toyota undulates back and forth, kind of like a whale trapped in
too small a tank, hoping for that opening that is not appearing.
Finally one appears! RRRRROOOOOOAAARRRR! It is not accelerating all
that quickly (I am spoiled by my Camaro and the EV1), but it sounds
impressive doing it. The Toyota manages to pass me again! Again, a
couple minutes later, I serenely pass it. The Toyota zigs, it zags,
it leans, it roars, and finally manages to pass me again. I could
have put the gas pedal down , whoops make that accelerator
potentiometer down, and given another free education, but I let this
one go.
So what makes the EV1 so fast? It isn�t brute power, as its 137 kW
works out to be 183 crankshaft horsepower for a 3000 pound car. The
EV1 exploits features of electric motors as well as finesse. First,
the EV1 is very efficient. The transmission is just one gear, the
torque does not make any 90 degree turns (like driveshaft to rear
axle), it has low rolling resistance tires, and is very aerodynamic.
It wastes only about 1/2 the energy a regular car does accelerating
hard at 50 mph. That�s nothing to sneeze at, you are getting about 7
free horsepower (due to less drivetrain loss, rolling resistance, and
aero drag).
Another reason is excellent traction control. Traction control on an
electric motor can occur much more quickly than on a gasoline engine
The last reason has to do with the characteristics of electric
motors. You can get full torque at stall. For practical reasons, the
EV1 doesn�t instantly apply this much torque to prevent motor
overheat and to prevent a big jerk when taking off. The EV1 electric
motor has a flat torque curve to about 35 or 40 mph, and then goes
into �constant power� mode from about 40 mph to 80 mph. What this
means is the car now acts like it is at peak torque, but has a
continuously variable transmission. You are always in the �right�
gear for maximum acceleration. This also gets rid of �holes� in the
drive wheels torque curve. When a car shifts gears, it only has about
2/3 the torque at the drive wheels it did in the previous gear. With
the electric motor, these holes are smoothed over, giving you �more
area under the curve� for more acceleration.
The net effect is the EV1, for a moment after the 1-2 shift point for
gas cars, accelerates with its 183 crankshaft horsepower like a 3000
pound car with about 250 horsepower.
=====
__________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've been an AOL customer since they started but today, I connect via DSL from a
different supplier and use AOL's bring your own ISP package. I'm just keeping the
email address I've had for many years. If you're an AOL customer you can send text
only by going to www.aol.com, logging in and reading and creating your email from
there. That's where this is coming from.
Steve
In a message dated 7/3/2003 10:38:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
>
>
> Comments inserted.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Brandon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 6:19 PM
> Subject: RE: AOL 8.0
>
>
>
> > Up until now I've been satisfied with AOL. I've found it to give a
> > faster and more reliable dialup than many of it's rivals.
>
> As an early user of AOL, I grew into the internet on it. And yes, initially
> it was the greatest. And even years later when I became more computer savvy,
> it still worked well enough for my needs and was like an old shoe.
>
> >However they've managed to piss me off bigtime. Customer support don't
> seem to know about this issue.>
>
> They terminally hacked me off a couple of months ago. And yes AOLs CS team
> couldn't (as a rule, met a couple of good guys over the years, didn't last
> long) support their A** with both hands. When I called in to cancel my
> account and they saw how long I had been a user, they gave my 2 free months,
> and when I called back in to verify the cancellation they offered me another
> 2 months, and have even E-mailed me begging me to come back with more free
> month offers. Good riddance!!
>
> > If you also use AOL, DON'T UPGRADE!<
>
> Even better, DOWNGRADE!! Get a copy of 7.0 and browse the CD. There is a
> Version 5.0 on it. Install it on the same machine ( I had both Ver 7.0 and
> 5.0 installed on mine, they ignore each other). That way whenever you want
> to read your EV list or more importantly Post to any list that doesn't
> support HTML, Log on with the Ver. 5.0 shortcut. Its a little inconvenient,
> that is the main reason I did so little posting over the last year or so.
> When I really wanted to reply to a post I usually found that I was on 7.0
> and said NM rather than switch versions. I imagine that some here would
> rather I HAD stayed with AOL :-).
>
> I even have an account on Wal Mart Connect, would recommend that over AOL,
> almost same format/service and only $ 9.95 a month unlimited. I mostly keep
> that account for a friend that I put on the net and as an extra way to get
> e-mail when travelling.
>
> I do have to tell you since dumping AOL in favor of a simple local 56K
> dialup account from a reliable local ISP (FastQ) I couldn't be happier. Back
> to 49K downloads and 99.9% no discons. I did find that changing to a USR
> Internet Pro "hardware type" modem ( 80.00 from Frys Electronics) has helped
> stability over the typical 56K WinModem as well. Good Luck,
> David Chapman.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"Isolated" and "bad boy" in the same phrase is a self contradicting
statement.
A bad boy NEVER has an isolation transformer. If it has an isolation
transformer and a bridge, then it is a "TWC" (third world charger). Fuse,
switch, and ammeter are optional.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 7:46 AM
Subject: Isolated Bad Boy Charger Usage
> Try a microwave transformer from a large 1500w feeding the diode bridge.
You
> can knock out the magnetic shunt and either re-wind the secondary or take
> another primary from a same type microwave and remove the I off the E core
> and install. For me it was easier to rewind the secondary with #12 wire. I
> did on my 89' Metro years ago. (Not PFC though but could feed a PFC-20.)
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 2:42 AM
> Subject: Re: Bad Boy Charger Usage
>
>
> > Charger is pushing 6000 watts into battery in the first case. The meter
is
> > reading 6000 watts because only one diode is conducting at a time. The
> > current is 25 amps per leg times two legs times 120 volts is 6000 watts.
> >
> > A half wave device is only pushing 3000 watts because only one diode is
> > conducting from one leg. The current is 25 amps per leg times one leg
> times
> > 120 volts is 3000 watts. This will open a 20 amp breaker very quickly.
> >
> > Joe Smalley
> > Rural Kitsap County WA
> > Fiesta 48 volts
> > NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 11:15 AM
> > Subject: Re: Bad Boy Charger Usage
> >
> >
> > > Charging amperage was measured with a simple analog meter on the
> charger.
> > >
> > > I guess I missed the Super Bad Boy charger where there is a diode on
> each
> > > hot leg, the two hot legs are tied together on the DC side of the
diodes
> > > and the neutral is used as the negative to the battery pack.
> > > Charger registers 50 amps to the 120 volt battery pack.
> > > Is the house meter reading 50 amps at 240 volts because both legs of
the
> > > 240 volt outlet are being used to charge 120 volt battery or something
> > > else ?
> > >
> > > Regular Bad Boy has a diode on only one hot leg, either the hot leg
of
> a
> > > regular 120 volt outlet or on one hot leg of a 240 volt outlet, and
the
> > > neutral is used as the negative to the 120 volt battery pack.
> > > Is the house meter reading 50 amps x 120 volts, 50 amps x 240 volts,
or
> > > something else ?
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > > Menlo Park III,
> > > Bill
> > >
> > > On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 19:32:49 -0700 Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > writes:
> > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] asked:
> > > > > How much electricity does a Half Wave Bad Boy Charger use to
> > > > charge
> > > > > a 120 volt battery pack at 50 amps from a 240 volt AC outlet for
> > > > > one hour?
> > > > >
> > > > > How much electricity does a Full Bridge Bad Boy Charger use to
> > > > > charge a 120 volt battery pack at 50 amps from a 240 volt AC
> > > > outlet
> > > > > for one hour?
> > > > >
> > > > > Both chargers use one 120 volt AC hot leg and the neutral.
> > > > >
> > > > > Do they both only use 120 volts x 50 amps or 6000 watts plus what
> > > > > ever is lost in the heating of the cord from the outlet to the
> > > > > meter on the charger?
> > > >
> > > > The current in and current out of a 'bad boy' charger are identicaly
> > > > --
> > > > both their magnitude and waveform. A halfwave 'bad boy' draws all
> > > > its
> > > > current from just one half cycle; a fullwave draws it from both half
> > > > cycles.
> > > >
> > > > The current is all concentrated in a narrow high-current pulse about
> > > > in
> > > > the middle of the AC line cycle. When you say "50 amp", you need to
> > > > specify how it is measured; peak, average, RMS, etc. A circuit
> > > > breaker
> > > > responds to RMS current; charging batteries respond to average
> > > > current.
> > > > In a fullwave 'bad boy', 50 amps RMS is around 30 amps average, and
> > > > over
> > > > 100 amps peak.
> > > >
> > > > > How does the electric company house meter record the usage?
> > > > > Does it record 50 amps for 120 volts or 50 amps for 240 volts?
> > > >
> > > > The power meters people have on their homes measure true power in
> > > > watts;
> > > > actual voltage times actual amps. Thus, it doesn't matter if you
> > > > draw
> > > > power from only one leg of a 240vac service, or if the current
> > > > waveform
> > > > or power factor are bad. You still only pay for the real power used.
> > > >
> > > > Commercial and industrial power meters *do* keep track of power
> > > > factor
> > > > and waveform distortion. The power company charges these customers a
> > > > premium price for bad power factor.
> > > > --
> > > > Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> > > > 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> > > > Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> > > > leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in -- Leonard
> > > > Cohen
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________________________________________
> > > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
> > > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
> > > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
> > >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's good to know. The information on federal EV tax credits seemed
pretty encouraging until I got to the part about it only being
applicable for new cars. We some state tax credits here in Oregon that
will apply to conversions, but it would be great if I could take
advantage of the federal tax credits as well.
-Bryan Avery
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
> Behalf Of Lee Hart
> Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 9:01 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: How to title a ground-up EV project
>
> Bryan Avery wrote:
> > Does the car have to have a salvage title to do this? Could a fully
> > functioning non-salvaged car be re-titled in this way to make it a
> > "new" car eligible for the tax credit?
>
> You can "junk" any car as long as you own it. It doesn't have to be
> wrecked, or have anything wrong with it.
>
> The process to re-title it varies a bit from state to state. You
> basically have to provide the state inspector with the serial numbers
of
> all the key components, (body, engine, transmission, etc.), and
> documentation to prove they weren't stolen. Then they issue a new
title
> and VIN.
>
> But... making an older car into a "new" car also raises its value for
> tax purposes (licensing and registration). I had to pay much more for
my
> ComutaVan license plates and registration because the state considered
> it a "new" car. This can also affect your insurance premiums as well.
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard
Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I used an 8 foot 2x4 on edge.
I put one end out the driver or passenger door and the other end out the
hatch area. I put the board on my shoulder and lift with my legs rather than
my arms.
Pick the battery out of the hole and set it on a board to slide it over to
the hatch area to be lifted out of the car. When you pick it out of the
hatch area, use the 2x4 with one person on each side of the car to save your
back lifting it over the taillight panel.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: Lifting batteries
> Use a 2x4 about 6 feet long. Attach a battery to the middle of the
> 2x4. Now two people, on on each end of the 2x4 can easily lift the
battery.
>
> Tom Shay
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Aubrey Wilder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "EV List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 12:43 PM
> Subject: Lifting batteries
>
>
> > Quick question. Does anyone have any tips for lifting batteries in and
> out
> > of the car or do you just rely on brute force? My batteries are 90
pounds
> > each and I only weigh 130, so I can't even lift them. Are there any
tools
> > out there?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
13.0 is too low of a voltage for 6 cell charging. Anything you could do to
raise the voltage would cost more than the wall wart.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 10:12 PM
Subject: Wall Wart Modular Charging
> I just picked up a bunch of NIB 13V DC Wall Warts. While pondering what to
> do with `em I started thinking they might make a practical (cheap)
approach
> to modular charging. They are only rated @ 10.4 watts so I can see that
one
> per battery would probably not be too useful. But what if a fellow broke
> them out of their cases and used say 4 per batt? With the increased
cooling
> might even up the output amperage? Probably not efficient enough tho huh?
I
> think we went over this a few years back but all I seem to remember was
that
> the WWs that I found then were all too expensive. Opinions? DC.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
David Dymaxion wrote:
> So what makes the EV1 so fast? It isn�t brute power, as its 137 kW
> works out to be 183 crankshaft horsepower for a 3000 pound car.
A friendly correction......you've got your EV1 numbers a bit confused. The EV1 has a
102
KW motor, not 137 KW, but its motor does produce 137 HP.
Your 183 HP figure must be a recall of the top speed a race prepared 'GM Impact'
(forerunner to the EV1) hit back in 1994 at Fort Stockton, Texas, when it set a world
land-speed record for a
production electric vehicle at 183 mph.
The fact that the EV1 performs the way it does with just 137 HP to move nearly 3000
lbs.,
is a testament of the superior power of an electric motor, when being compared to a gas
engine at the same rated HP.
> I decide to cruise Beach Boulevard, trolling for victims. Didn�t
> catch many lights (for a change I was hitting everything green!),
> when finally I lined up with a Ford truck. The EV1 was far enough
> ahead I wondered for a moment if he was even trying. It is certainly
> fast enough, though, I believe that may have been his best try.
>
> Third night: A new, stock looking Acura Integra was in the left lane,
> and I was in the right lane. Light goes green, and WHEEEEEEEEEEEEE
> goes the EV1, ahead by a fender at the other side of the
> intersection....
Corrections aside, I enjoyed your EV1 street race stories!
See Ya....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well I gave the Aspire a 20 amp charge up from the 10 amp it normally gets.
Just a quick jolt to get over the big hill. It already went up once and I
didn't want to stress the pack. My wife was going to leave in a half hour
and I figured it would go quicker at that rate. She mentioned Pacifica and
I said I wouldn't go there with the electric figuring she wouldn't go. My
mistake. I called but she didn't answer her cell and I left a message on
the home phone and the cell. She took the gas car for all the trips and the
poor pack got hammered for 6 extra hours when a couple would have done.
Lucky the house didn't burn. She didn't check her messages untill late and
I forgot my cell phone. Had to borrow one. Everything was against me.
Instead of turning it off at 3:30 or so the charge went on till 10:00pm I
got back at 1:00 am and smelled a sickly sweet smell. The pack was still
venting from at least one battery. Water vapor on the windows. The back
cover was still on. I usually take it off to disapate heat. It is wood and
was hot to the touch. All the batteries in that part of the pack were very
hot. I noticed some discoloration in the buss bars. Warped plastic
everywhere. This was after 3 hours being shut off. S%$t. I put the charge
back on and with all the batteries up pretty high it still drew high amps
and wouldn't go over 131v when it should have gone quickly up to 150v. With
all my babying of the pack I have lost my battle with the Delphis I am
afraid. One sad story. I'll drive the car tomorrow with out charging
unless some of you think of a way to minimise the damage. I don't know how
many of the regs got hammered. Oh well. So much for a manual charging
with a partner who is oblivious. Rats..... Next charger will sense over
charging. This was a costly mistake....If it sags really bad on it's first
hill I'll know it's over. Maybe I'll get lucky. Lawrence Rhodes.........
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Yes you can move them. You use a battery strap. Stand over it and lift it
out with your legs. Lawrence Rhodes......
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Aubrey Wilder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 12:43 PM
Subject: Lifting batteries
> Quick question. Does anyone have any tips for lifting batteries in and
out
> of the car or do you just rely on brute force? My batteries are 90 pounds
> each and I only weigh 130, so I can't even lift them. Are there any tools
> out there?
>
> Thanks,
> Aubrey
>
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Subject: MB80, second bulk charge
> More breathtaking news from the cycling front (holler when you get bored
> and I'll stop posting all this...)
>
these are the one's victor got right? I'm intrested and following , . I had
though about getting one for the 12v aux. just to get to know them. I missed
the deadline and .Now I'm wondering if I could have ever gotten them broken
in.
SteveClunn
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> I have a red-top optima as my starting battery in my mitsubish PU ( the
> donar car for the EV I am planning). \
I have (till it sell's) a 84 mitsubish PU and am inpressed with the low amp
it uses compared to my ford ranger . The old ones were lighter.
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I am wondering if people who want to enter shouldn't have to send a video
tape of it working to you .
As I said before , if some company picks up the idea and wants to make them
, I'd like to see some of the money they make go to a grant to help people
doing conversions. Kind of like Paul Newman's pop corn. One the back of the
box could be information on EV's ect. Well its 4th of July and I'll going to
have my cars a some event here in town , hood up and giving rides . won't be
had to tie my EV's into the day we celebrate our freedom.
SteveClunn
>
> > entries can be seen at www.grassrootsev.com in the event's section
> > (if Jon H has this working).
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> "Isolated" and "bad boy" in the same phrase is a self contradicting
> statement.
>
> A bad boy NEVER has an isolation transformer. If it has an isolation
> transformer and a bridge, then it is a "TWC" (third world charger). Fuse,
> switch, and ammeter are optional.
>
I love these names , What do you call (other that dangerous ) a charger that
run's off the two hot legs with one diode on each and uses the middle or
ground as the negative. "a double dealing bad boy"?
SteveClunn
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On 4 Jul 2003 at 1:32, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> Next charger will sense over charging. This was a costly
> mistake....
Cheaping out on the charger is always false economy.
David Roden
Webmaster, atesk.org and english-korea.org
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Hello to All,
Joe Smalley wrote:
> "Isolated" and "bad boy" in the same phrase is a self contradicting
> statement.
Yeah, I agree here with Joe. The phrase 'Isolated Bad Boy' is pretty much text book
oxymoron.
The name Bad Boy came about years ago when Lee Hart and I were going back and forth
over
my crude charger, and though Lee was right about all he had said (well, mostly right)
'technically', I felt he had missed the point of my original post. In true Wayland
style,
I fired back with an opening line of my reply posy, "Hello, it's bad boy Wayland with
my
bad boy charger...." (or something pretty close to that). The name 'Bad Boy Charger'
has
forever stuck, and means a basic....very basic....AC juice into a full wave bridge
rectifier and into the battery pack kind of setup. Adjustments are made with varying
lengths and gauge
sizes of extension cords.
One of my favorite versions of a Bad Boy, was when I had Red Beastie. It's outboard,
high
current 240V capacitor charger had taken a dive and I needed to use the truck for some
longer distance traveling the next day...what to do? I assembled a quick and dirty
'liquid-cooled' Bad Boy, consisting of the requisite 40 amp diode bridge stuck to a
heat
sink, and a 100 ft., 16 gauge orange extension cord, coiled up in a water filled 5
gallon
bucket. The Beastie's pack was 120V, so the Bad Boy needed this kind of resistance (and
perhaps crude inductance provided by the coiled-up extension cord) to keep the 20 amp
wall
circuit breaker from popping. It was terribly inefficient, as witnessed by the steaming
bucket of hot water the next morning (a bad Boy crock pot?), but from the late
afternoon
until the next morning, 150 some-odd ahrs had been stuffed back into the Beastie's 40
T-105s.
>
> A bad boy NEVER has an isolation transformer. If it has an isolation
> transformer and a bridge, then it is a "TWC" (third world charger). Fuse,
> switch, and ammeter are optional.
Man, I love that third world charger bit!
See Ya......John Wayland
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--- Begin Message ---
>
> On 4 Jul 2003 at 1:32, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>
> > Next charger will sense over charging. This was a costly
> > mistake....
>
> Cheaping out on the charger is always false economy.
>
You know, as someone who is lucky enough to have a programmable charger that
completely removes the burden of having to babysit battery charging
operations, and as someone who has a ton of experience with software design
and a fair amount of electronics experience, I have to ask: Is anyone out
there interested in working on a collaborative effort to design a
microprocessor-controlled charger that can be made available to EV
enthusiasts at a low price? I will donate my time to the effort, and I know
we could do it a LOT cheaper than some of the other alternatives, such as
the Brusa charger I have.
I would suggest that such a charger could be built and sold at cost to EV
enthusiasts in order to provide temperature-compensated charging for any
kind of battery chemistry without the risk of melting down a battery pack or
burning down someone's garage. It would do wonders for improving the state
of the EV industry.
You shouldn't have to pay $5000 for a battery charger just to get a safe,
reliable charge. Anyone out there interested in working on this?
-Tom
Thomas Hudson
http://portdistrict5.org -- 5th District Aldermanic Website
http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More
http://portgardenclub.org -- Port Washington Garden Club
http://portlightstation.org -- Light Station Restoration
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At 12:39 PM 7/4/2003 -0500, Tom Hudson wrote:
You shouldn't have to pay $5000 for a battery charger just to get a safe,
reliable charge. Anyone out there interested in working on this?
I'm planning on having my BMS talk to my PFC-20.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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Lee Hart wrote:
>> There is a $2000 federal income tax credit if he manages to
>> complete it before the end of 2003. Next year it drops to $1500,
>> and I believe keeps dropping $500 per year until it's gone.
>> We can thank our far-sighted President and his party for
>> dis-encouraging EVs.
David Dymaxion wrote:
> The real driving force behind the recent "success" of commercial EVs
> was the California mandate. The California legislative branch is
> dominated by democrats, and California has a democrat governor. Why
> did they let the EV mandate lapse? We can thank California's
> far-sighted governor and his party for dis-encouraging EVs.
Sadly, *both* parties are doing their part to dis-encourage EVs. With no
leadership on either side, issues like EVs are being shoved aside.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
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Joe Smalley wrote:
> 13.0 is too low of a voltage for 6 cell charging. Anything you could
> do to raise the voltage would cost more than the wall wart.
13.0v is the full-load voltage. At 10.4 watts, that's 0.8 amps. Class 2
transformers have terrible voltage regulation. If it is 13v at full
load, it will exceed 17v at no load.
It also depends on whether it has an internal filter capacitor. If not,
the output voltage will be even higher when connected to a capacitor or
battery.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
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David Chapman wrote:
> I just picked up a bunch of NIB 13V DC Wall Warts. I started thinking
> they might make a practical (cheap) approach to modular charging...
Well, they certainly are cheap. But not very practical. Remember, they
are nothing but a transformer and rectifier. No current limit, no
voltage limit, no shutoff. They would take a long time to charge the
battery, but then would keep going and OVERcharge it. If you connected
it to an Optima, for example, they would go well past 15v.
> But what if a fellow broke them out of their cases and used say 4
> per batt? The increased cooling might even up the output amperage?
Look at the label; see if they are listed as "class 2". A class 2
transformer is deliberately built with poor coupling and high resistance
windings to limit the maximum current. This makes them run hot and have
poor efficiency (about 50%). A class 2 transformer won't deliver more
current if you cool it better.
If you really wanted to use these as battery chargers, you would need to
add some sort of regulator circuit. The simplest would be a 3-terminal
regulator, trimmed for a safe float voltage around 13.5v.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
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1sclunn wrote:
> What do you call (other that dangerous ) a charger that runs off
> the two hot legs with one diode on each and uses the middle or
> ground as the negative. "a double dealing bad boy"?
I guess that's as good as any. Maybe "twin bad boys"?
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://sales.goldmine-elec.com/prodinfo.asp?prodid=8577
Gold Plated Car Battery Connectors - $1.99
:-)
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Wayland wrote:
> One of my favorite versions of a Bad Boy, was when I had Red Beastie.
> I assembled a quick and dirty 'liquid-cooled' Bad Boy, consisting of
> the requisite 40 amp diode bridge stuck to a heat sink, and a 100 ft.
> 16 gauge orange extension cord, coiled up in a water filled 5 gallon
> bucket. The Beastie's pack was 120V, so the Bad Boy needed this kind
> of resistance (and perhaps crude inductance provided by the coiled-up
> extension cord) to keep the 20 amp wall circuit breaker from popping.
> It was terribly inefficient, as witnessed by the steaming bucket of
> hot water the next morning (a bad Boy crock pot?), but from the late
> afternoon until the next morning, 150 some-odd ahrs had been stuffed
> back into the Beastie's 40 T-105s.
Yes John, I remember these debates fondly. Your water-cooled 'bad boy'
is close to what I called a 'crazy boy' charger in another early post.
A 'crazy boy' is a bridge rectifier in a bucket of water for cooling.
*And*, the water is the series resistor to set the charging current! AC
neutral to the metal bucket. Put a brick inside, and set a second
smaller metal bucket inside it. Connect the bridge AC inputs to the AC
hot and inside bucket, and its DC outputs to the battery to be charged
(any voltage, even down to 6v). Drop the bridge into the inner bucket.
Fill both buckets with water, and plug it in!
The surface area of the buckets and space between them determines the
charging current. It starts high when the buckets are full, and
naturally tapers down as the water boils away. When the water level
drops low enough so it no longer touches the inner bucket, it
automatically shuts off!
A mad genius could fiddle with it to produce a perfect fail-safe charge.
But I consider it a crazy boy because of the risk of burns or
electrocution.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've been thinking of adding pack current monitoring to my BMS.
Of course I want to keep the system isolated from the pack.
So, how hard is it to build a tiny little ISOLATED DC-DC that will take in
12V and output 5V DC? (or even 3.3V) at about 100ma? (Actually, I probably
only need about 20ma)
All the pre-built ones I've found have either been WAY overkill (20A), or
not isolated. It also seems that 12V to 5V is an unpopular conversion.
I guess I could use a little oscillator driving into a toroid transformer,
then rectify, filter, and regulate the output. (bridge rectifier,
capacitor, and 3 pin reg?)
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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Lee,
You need to go on the "junkyard wars" for an EV.
Build an EV with parts from the junk yard and compete
with another team for farthest range.
Using a bucket filled with water as a variable
resistor as the water boils off!
Interesting concepts, I could see McGiever (sp?)
coming
up with something like that if he needed to charge
his EV and didn't have a PFC20 handy.
Rod
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> John Wayland wrote:
> > One of my favorite versions of a Bad Boy, was when
> I had Red Beastie.
> > I assembled a quick and dirty 'liquid-cooled' Bad
> Boy, consisting of
> > the requisite 40 amp diode bridge stuck to a heat
> sink, and a 100 ft.
> > 16 gauge orange extension cord, coiled up in a
> water filled 5 gallon
> > bucket. The Beastie's pack was 120V, so the Bad
> Boy needed this kind
> > of resistance (and perhaps crude inductance
> provided by the coiled-up
> > extension cord) to keep the 20 amp wall circuit
> breaker from popping.
> > It was terribly inefficient, as witnessed by the
> steaming bucket of
> > hot water the next morning (a bad Boy crock pot?),
> but from the late
> > afternoon until the next morning, 150 some-odd
> ahrs had been stuffed
> > back into the Beastie's 40 T-105s.
>
> Yes John, I remember these debates fondly. Your
> water-cooled 'bad boy'
> is close to what I called a 'crazy boy' charger in
> another early post.
>
> A 'crazy boy' is a bridge rectifier in a bucket of
> water for cooling.
> *And*, the water is the series resistor to set the
> charging current! AC
> neutral to the metal bucket. Put a brick inside, and
> set a second
> smaller metal bucket inside it. Connect the bridge
> AC inputs to the AC
> hot and inside bucket, and its DC outputs to the
> battery to be charged
> (any voltage, even down to 6v). Drop the bridge into
> the inner bucket.
> Fill both buckets with water, and plug it in!
>
> The surface area of the buckets and space between
> them determines the
> charging current. It starts high when the buckets
> are full, and
> naturally tapers down as the water boils away. When
> the water level
> drops low enough so it no longer touches the inner
> bucket, it
> automatically shuts off!
>
> A mad genius could fiddle with it to produce a
> perfect fail-safe charge.
> But I consider it a crazy boy because of the risk of
> burns or
> electrocution.
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still
> can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect
> offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in
> everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets
> in - Leonard Cohen
>
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