EV Digest 2902
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) My Bad-Boy charger
by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Isolated Bad Boy Charger Usage
by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Homebuilt Simple Fairly Dumb Charger
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Isolated Bad Boy Charger Usage
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Curious about power "kick"
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Isolated Bad Boy Charger Usage
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Homebuilt Simple Fairly Dumb Charger
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Homebuilt Simple Fairly Dumb Charger
by russco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Curious about power "kick"
by "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Smaller Optima YellowTop
by "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Curious about power "kick"
by "Dave Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) remove
by porge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Curious about power "kick"
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Homebuilt Simple Fairly Dumb Charger
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: ampabout
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: OT Re: Fw: CNG Vehicles & Electric vehicles
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: New EV to go into production
by Brad Waddell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Electric Mobility Scooter-Cheap
by "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Electric Mobility Scooter-Cheap
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) MB80 Shallow Discharge, Ambient vs. Case Temps
by fred whitridge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: OT Re: Fw: CNG Vehicles & Electric vehicles
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Begin Message ---
I think I have about the smallest Bad-Boy charger out there. I have
uploaded a picture of it to my web site, but this is the only place
you will find a link to it. You can see my Bad-Boy at
<http://home.comcast.net/~paul-g/bad_boy.jpg>.
Warning; if you are squeamish about Bad-Boy chargers you may not want
to see my charger sitting on the front seat of my Buggy - but at
least the ground is hooked up!
I'm a little saddened by by rebuild of the charger - not enuf
resistance, so now I have to plug it into my variac instead of strait
into the wall much more often. But I was getting nervous about the
old version, as it was starting to melt some of its insulation.
David Brandt e-mailed me today with a better name for the Bad-Boy
plus Variac charger. I thought I would pass it along. How about
calling it the VARI-BAD BOY?
Enjoy,
Neon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm in for the network drivers.
"Network drivers?"
You know, to talk to the universal EV bus standard that doesn't exist. ;-)
S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, July 04, 2003 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: Isolated Bad Boy Charger Usage
> As for an open source charger:
>
> "me too!"
>
> I would be interested in helping, not sure what I can do exactly. I have
> a background in mechanical CADD and sheet metal. I have built a motor
> controller, but I am not at all expert. I own a non-profit license of
> Eagle schematic and layout tool (100 x 160mm), but I am not too good at
it.
>
> So if there is an effort, count me in. My needs are NEV voltages
> (36-96V) and peak detecting for NiCad chemistry.
>
> Seth
>
>
>
> Otmar wrote:
> <snip>
> >
> > Tom Hudson suggested a open source charger, I assume he means
> > isolated (if I read his intentions correctly). I'd be happy to
> > contribute a little time to that project, especially if it fit's the
> > specs I want (32A input, PFC, isolated, smart, inexpensive etc) If
> > there is interest I'll set up a mailing list for it, or we could just
> > do it on evtech.
> >
> > --
> > -Otmar-
> >
> > http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
> > http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
>
> --
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 4:27 PM -0700 7/5/03, russco wrote:
Mike Chancey wrote:
Isolated, so you don't have to worry about GFCI trips or shocks.
NO, no, no!
The National Electrical Code requires GFCI protected receptacles
wherever there is a possibly of water or ground contact. All bathrooms,
kitchens, garages, swimming pools, spas, and outdoor receptacles MUST be
GFCI protected.
An electric vehicle is parked on the ground outdoors, so charging must
be from a GFCI protected receptacle. Isolated charger or non isolated
charger, it doesn't matter.
GFCI charging is the rule.
Practice Safe and Sane Sharging, not Dead and Dumb.
Follow the rules.
Russ,
As I read it no one said that they were not planning on using a GFCI
with a isolated charger. Of course you use a GFCI, it's just that
with a isolated charger it doesn't trip as much and the chance of a
high voltage shock is lower.
It's simple, just like all the manufacturers have done:
Use a GFCI, plus isolation.
I think that once it's built, isolation on a 7kw charger should cost
about $200 extra in parts. If this industry had normal markup
(certainly doesn't as far as I know) that woudl add $800 to the
charger. But if people want to build their own open source charger
then the penalty is not as bad.
The disadvantage I see with the isolation is that it gets harder to
make a super wide output voltage range charger like the PFC series.
You end up with different windings for different pack voltages. This
is because the logical topology (as far as I know) is a resonant full
bridge which is a type of forward converter. As a general rule,
forward converters like to run at less than a 2 to 1 output range (or
the output inductor gets really big, much like a isolated converter
followed by a buck converter)
As I see it, a good part of the extra cost of a isolated unit is
getting rid of the extra 5% of heat that is lost in the isolation
stage, 350 Watts in the case of a 7kw charger as I would like.
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com
Mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm in for the network drivers.
"Network drivers?"
You know, to talk to the universal EV bus standard that doesn't exist. ;-)
Go ahead Sheer, Make my day, write up a standard. :-)
I'm dying to make some PCBs for battery monitoring so that people can
start playing with them, (and I can stop killing my Optimas).
I just found a nice way to cut up panelized boards using the mill.
That makes the boards cheap in low quantities.
Can you tell I'm procrastinating all the other work that I really
should be doing? :-)
Those of you waiting for controllers, worry not, the copper goes to
the plating shop on monday.. Really, they're almost done...
Have fun!
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com
Mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would disagree with this...
When I went from 6V to 8V, I did notice a "kick",
mostly when I stomped on it, which I'm told, is bad
for floodeds. I noticed it happening as the amps
started dropping, and the voltage began rising,
_after_ coming off a dead stop.
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Sounds like it is coming from the controller.
> Be Careful or you may get stuck in the middle of
> nowhere as batteries
> don't have a kick, only a sag.
>
> On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 15:25:34 -0700 "Dave Anderson"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > I have a Jet Electrica with a fresh 120v T-125
> pack, Curtis 1221C,
> > and stock
> > Prestolite motor. I am currently on my 10th
> battery break-in cycle,
> > and I
> > am curious about a phenomenon that I am
> experiencing with it:
> >
> > At a certain point in each gear range
> (approximately midpoint) I
> > feel a
> > definite "kick" in terms of power when under heavy
> load, as when
> > climbing a
> > hill, most noticeably with full throttle. As I
> recall, the
> > voltmeter shows
> > a definite rise from the sag, but the amps stay
> steady. Don't get
> > me wrong,
> > I'm not complaining, it sure is nice to feel it
> "kick in" when
> > climbing a
> > hill. It sure keeps the ICE folks behind me from
> getting cross. :)
> >
> > I am just curious to understand what is going on.
> Is this kick a
> > phenomenon
> > of the batteries, or is it coming from the
> controller? And how do I
> > get
> > that kick across the whole range? :)
> >
> > Regards,
> > -Dave
> >
> >
>
>
>
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=====
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
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'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel? Are you
saving any gas for your kids?
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 06:19 PM 7/5/2003 -0700, Otmar wrote:
I'm dying to make some PCBs for battery monitoring so that people can
start playing with them, (and I can stop killing my Optimas).
I just found a nice way to cut up panelized boards using the mill. That
makes the boards cheap in low quantities.
Can you tell I'm procrastinating all the other work that I really should
be doing? :-)
I left a 1/8" gap between boards when I had mine made 9 up.
I then used an "ultra thin kerf" carbide tipped circular saw blade on my
radial arm saw to cut them up.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Russ Kaufmann wrote in reply to my statement:
> Isolated, so you don't have to worry about GFCI trips or shocks.
NO, no, no!
The National Electrical Code requires GFCI protected receptacles
wherever there is a possibly of water or ground contact. All bathrooms,
kitchens, garages, swimming pools, spas, and outdoor receptacles MUST be
GFCI protected.
Yes, but are you telling me that if you needed to charge and found the only
available outlet was not GFCI you wouldn't use it? There are probably
thousands of outlets without GFCI protection accessible to EV owners. I
for one would still like to use them.
I still think the charger must be isolated. Two layers of protection, GFCI
and isolation. We are talking about a charger built from plans, isolation
will allow a bit more "fudge factor" for the builder. An isolated charger
will not fall victim to nuisance tripping due to condensation on the
batteries. BTDT. Steel battery boxes and flooded batteries will teach all
kinds of lessons in tripping GFCI circuits. About the third time a
non-isolated charger trips its GFCI because of something like that you will
find someone getting "clever" and bypassing it or disconnecting the ground
lead. I am not saying you should not use a GFCI, what I am saying that you
shouldn't count on it for 100% of the protection, they do fail and fairly
often. The one in my bathroom lasted only four months. Put them in the
automotive environment they were never designed, tested, or approved for,
and they will probably fail sooner. Include the GFCI but isolate the
charger. Obviously, one arrangement would be an isolated charger with a
GFCI plug on the end of the cord. The only problem with this is the cord
end tends to get bashed around a bit and they can be a bit bulky. Of
course a GFCI could certainly be built into the charger as well.
FWIW I did use a non-isolated GFCI equipped charger for some time,
installed in an early 80s conversion. After driving me to distraction, I
switched back to the off-board isolated Lester for most of my charging.
(Yes, in a properly designed EV I it would probably have been fine, but
that was not the case.)
I suspect the whole issue of successful use of a non-isolated charger may
have a lot to do with the use of sealed batteries. On a nice clean sealed
battery EV the chances of a GFCI trip are very low. Contrast that with a
pickup conversion with flooded batteries in under bed boxes. Every time it
rains those batteries will get wet. Click, there went the GFCI.
This week I helped a friend with a pickup conversion he had recently
purchased. When we pulled the rear batteries, one of the boxes had about
four inches of water in it.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, I see I've gotten things going again. That's Russ for 'ya.
Always causing trouble.
An isolation charger is excellent, certainly better than a non isolated
charger. But isolation requires a transformer. For a small lightweight
transformer, high frequency switching is required, read, fets,
complexity, and $$.
In the case of a 60 hertz charger, the transformer will be a large,
heavy, iron core unit, again costing $$.
I would personally not rely on a GFCI. The best protection is a
grounded car chassis/body. With the body at ground potential through
the charger cord green wire, the body is at the same potential as the
earth is. Thus, a person standing barefoot in the mud and touching the
car cannot receive a shock. Now, that's better than a GFCI or
isolation.
Since the GFCI is required by Code, look at it another way. If the GFCI
trips, there is a problem with the car, for a current is passing between
the propulsion system and the car body, a no no. The leakage current
will trip the GFCI, forcing the repair of the leakage path.
Without the GFCI, the leakage current probably wouldn't have been
detected, let alone repaired. Yes, there are other on board methods of
detecting leakage currents, but the GFCI is already there (by Code
requirement) and its purpose is to detect leakage currents and shut off
the power.
The Russco charger uses a Leviton Brand GFCI. There are other brands,
but I have had a very good track record with the charger GFCI. The
Operating Instructions have a "GFCI Record Date Chart" for monthly user
testing of the GFCI.
It is also very important to have all high voltage connections such as
controller, motor, contractor, and batteries, covered or otherwise
protected from exposure to people or animals. This involves rubber
boots, heat shrink, or such, covering ALL high voltage connections.
All commercial EV's do not expose any connections under the hood, but
most self conversions have exposed connections under the hood.
Summary: With a grounded body through the charger cord and sealed high
voltage connections, GFCI and isolation become redundant safety items.
Personal cannot be shocked or harmed by touching the car body and
personal cannot be shocked under the hood.
But, GFCI outlets are required and well as grounding. Isolation is
just another safety factor, but not the most important.
Russ Kaufmann, Owner, dba
Russco Electro Mechanical Engineering Since 1976
Manufacturers of Anti Light Dimmer Fairly Smart EV Battery Chargers
Past Manufacturers of EV Controllers and Hydronic Heaters
EAA Santa Clara Rally 127 miles on one charge
EAA Fellow Award 1993
1800 watt grid tied photovoltaic system on site
(707)542-4151 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Mike Chancey wrote:
>
> Russ Kaufmann wrote in reply to my statement:
>
> > > Isolated, so you don't have to worry about GFCI trips or shocks.
> >
> >NO, no, no!
> >
> >The National Electrical Code requires GFCI protected receptacles
> >wherever there is a possibly of water or ground contact. All bathrooms,
> >kitchens, garages, swimming pools, spas, and outdoor receptacles MUST be
> >GFCI protected.
>
> Yes, but are you telling me that if you needed to charge and found the only
> available outlet was not GFCI you wouldn't use it? There are probably
> thousands of outlets without GFCI protection accessible to EV owners. I
> for one would still like to use them.
>
> I still think the charger must be isolated. Two layers of protection, GFCI
> and isolation. We are talking about a charger built from plans, isolation
> will allow a bit more "fudge factor" for the builder. An isolated charger
> will not fall victim to nuisance tripping due to condensation on the
> batteries. BTDT. Steel battery boxes and flooded batteries will teach all
> kinds of lessons in tripping GFCI circuits. About the third time a
> non-isolated charger trips its GFCI because of something like that you will
> find someone getting "clever" and bypassing it or disconnecting the ground
> lead. I am not saying you should not use a GFCI, what I am saying that you
> shouldn't count on it for 100% of the protection, they do fail and fairly
> often. The one in my bathroom lasted only four months. Put them in the
> automotive environment they were never designed, tested, or approved for,
> and they will probably fail sooner. Include the GFCI but isolate the
> charger. Obviously, one arrangement would be an isolated charger with a
> GFCI plug on the end of the cord. The only problem with this is the cord
> end tends to get bashed around a bit and they can be a bit bulky. Of
> course a GFCI could certainly be built into the charger as well.
>
> FWIW I did use a non-isolated GFCI equipped charger for some time,
> installed in an early 80s conversion. After driving me to distraction, I
> switched back to the off-board isolated Lester for most of my charging.
> (Yes, in a properly designed EV I it would probably have been fine, but
> that was not the case.)
>
> I suspect the whole issue of successful use of a non-isolated charger may
> have a lot to do with the use of sealed batteries. On a nice clean sealed
> battery EV the chances of a GFCI trip are very low. Contrast that with a
> pickup conversion with flooded batteries in under bed boxes. Every time it
> rains those batteries will get wet. Click, there went the GFCI.
>
> This week I helped a friend with a pickup conversion he had recently
> purchased. When we pulled the rear batteries, one of the boxes had about
> four inches of water in it.
>
> Thanks,
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Curtis 1231C in my Ranger pickup would give a noticeable "kick"
at full throttle when the controller came out of current limit mode.
If I watched the motor current as the speed increased, the current which
had stayed at 500 amps would drop to about 450, then jump back to
500 briefly and then resume its decline. I could feel a slight kick when it
jumped from 450 to 500.
Tom Shay
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2003 3:25 PM
Subject: Curious about power "kick"
> I have a Jet Electrica with a fresh 120v T-125 pack, Curtis 1221C, and
stock
> Prestolite motor. I am currently on my 10th battery break-in cycle, and I
> am curious about a phenomenon that I am experiencing with it:
>
> At a certain point in each gear range (approximately midpoint) I feel a
> definite "kick" in terms of power when under heavy load, as when climbing
a
> hill, most noticeably with full throttle. As I recall, the voltmeter
shows
> a definite rise from the sag, but the amps stay steady. Don't get me
wrong,
> I'm not complaining, it sure is nice to feel it "kick in" when climbing a
> hill. It sure keeps the ICE folks behind me from getting cross. :)
>
> I am just curious to understand what is going on. Is this kick a
phenomenon
> of the batteries, or is it coming from the controller? And how do I get
> that kick across the whole range? :)
>
> Regards,
> -Dave
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There is a smaller Yellow Top than the familiar model D34. It's model D51.
You can read a bit about it at http://www.1st-optima-batteries.com/
This battery might be just the ticket for somebody who wants a smaller
Optima. It weighs 26 lbs compared to 43 lbs for the D34.
I don't know how available this new battery is. Maybe somebody else on
this list knows and can tell us.
Tom Shay
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Thomas, I think that explains it. I might have gotten the change
r.e. volts vs amps turned around. The next time I go out, I'll watch the
gauges more carefully. It would make sense that the current would go up
rather than voltage, as batteries can only sag as someone else pointed
out...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2003 7:51 PM
Subject: Re: Curious about power "kick"
The Curtis 1231C in my Ranger pickup would give a noticeable "kick"
at full throttle when the controller came out of current limit mode.
If I watched the motor current as the speed increased, the current which
had stayed at 500 amps would drop to about 450, then jump back to
500 briefly and then resume its decline. I could feel a slight kick when it
jumped from 450 to 500.
Tom Shay
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2003 3:25 PM
Subject: Curious about power "kick"
> I have a Jet Electrica with a fresh 120v T-125 pack, Curtis 1221C, and
stock
> Prestolite motor. I am currently on my 10th battery break-in cycle, and I
> am curious about a phenomenon that I am experiencing with it:
>
> At a certain point in each gear range (approximately midpoint) I feel a
> definite "kick" in terms of power when under heavy load, as when climbing
a
> hill, most noticeably with full throttle. As I recall, the voltmeter
shows
> a definite rise from the sag, but the amps stay steady. Don't get me
wrong,
> I'm not complaining, it sure is nice to feel it "kick in" when climbing a
> hill. It sure keeps the ICE folks behind me from getting cross. :)
>
> I am just curious to understand what is going on. Is this kick a
phenomenon
> of the batteries, or is it coming from the controller? And how do I get
> that kick across the whole range? :)
>
> Regards,
> -Dave
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
PWM controllers do this when they come out of current limit and go to 100%
duty cycle. It is just a matter of how much of a surge and how much you are
attuned to the car to notice it.
Some people never run the motor/controller combination through this region
and never have the conditions correct to make it happen.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2003 7:51 PM
Subject: Re: Curious about power "kick"
> The Curtis 1231C in my Ranger pickup would give a noticeable "kick"
> at full throttle when the controller came out of current limit mode.
> If I watched the motor current as the speed increased, the current which
> had stayed at 500 amps would drop to about 450, then jump back to
> 500 briefly and then resume its decline. I could feel a slight kick when
it
> jumped from 450 to 500.
>
> Tom Shay
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This design predated the PFC series of chargers. Yes, I built one to
demonstrate the concept. No, I did not keep it together. I took it apart
because it took up too much space and we needed the parts for other
projects.
Here is the formula:
Isolation transformer with a secondary wound for 50% of pack voltage.
Input voltage: whatever is appropriate for your transformer.
Input breaker: whatever is appropriate for your transformer.
GFCI built into box.
Isolated logic supply runs fan for heat sink
Diode bridge on heat sink sized for pack voltage and current.
TI Demo circuit board for PFC control.
PFC boost inductor: whatever is appropriate for your transformer.
FETs and Free Wheel Diode on heat sink.
Internal Thermal shutdown circuit for internal problems (blocked air vents).
External Thermal shutdown circuit for external problems (hot batteries).
Current control knob (equalize to bulk).
Acceptance voltage trimpot.
Fuse on output.
Design advantages:
Wide variety of transformers usable. (100 amps at 48 volts is possible from
240 VAC)
Wide variety of FETs (IGBTs) usable.
Scaleable to any pack voltage.
Isolation.
Easily controlled with throttle pin on demo board.
Power factor corrected.
Design procedure is documented.
Single power stage (bridge, FET and Diode).
Adaptable to true three stage charging.
Adaptable to Regbus interface.
Adaptable to remote control.
Adaptable to Micro control.
Design disadvantages:
Cooling fan needed to keep package small.
Oscilloscope needed for tuning.
Heavy 60 Hz transformer
No reverse polarity protection for output.
Breaker will open or fuse will blow if output is shorted.
Current surges when initially connected to power.
Note: amazing similarity to PFC charger except for 1) isolation added 2)
input voltage range limited by transformer, 3) pack voltage range is reduced
and 4) a short circuit on the output makes the charger stop working
temporarily.
This design is NOT limited to 1500 watts.
If you standardize the input voltage, output voltage and the max. power
ratings, then we could standardize the parts. As long as there are diverse
pack voltages, the design will vary.
We abandoned this design to fit in a smaller box, reduce weight, widen the
input voltage range and widen the output voltage range. In doing this, we
needed only one device to cover many applications.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Chancey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2003 9:28 AM
Subject: Homebuilt Simple Fairly Dumb Charger
> Hi folks,
>
> It must be the charger time of the year. I have been thinking about
> chargers a bit and was wondering about a simple charger almost anyone
could
> build. What I had in mind was something that would work as an on-board
> opportunity charger or perhaps a backup charger not as the primary
> charger. It could also be used for manual equalization charges. Rather
> than manufacture it, it would simply be available as some plans, a parts
> list, and a webpage with pictures and instructions. The basic idea I had
> would be something like this:
>
> 120 VAC input, maximum 1300-1500 watts power. (So it would not be likely
> to trip breakers.)
>
> Compact, perhaps about the size of a shoe box.
>
> Isolated, so you don't have to worry about GFCI trips or shocks.
>
> Automatic shutoff.
>
>
> How about this:
> A 120 VAC 1500watt transformer, perhaps from a microwave oven or something
> similar, with the secondary removed and replaced with a hand wound coil
> appropriate for the pack voltage.
> A current sensing shut down circuit as used by Mark Brueggemann on his
> FrakenLester charger (see
http://www.qsl.net/k5lxp/ev/evchgr/chgcntl.html )
> A simple 12 hour mechanical timer as used for attic fans as a secondary
> control method for equalizing.
> An appropriately sized bridge rectifier and heat sink.
> A small fan to cool the transformer and heat sink.
> A small circuit breaker on the AC input.
> A fuse or circuit breaker on the DC output.
> Perhaps a small ammeter to monitor the output current.
>
> With this low of power, it is only going to deliver a max of something
like
> 10 amps on a 120 volt EV so it probably would not be a realistic charger
> for full time use, but that is not what it is for. At least with that low
> of output, thermal runaway should be just about impossible.
>
> I know, we are trying to get folks to realize that a good charger is
> essential for a good EV and that isn't where you want to skimp, but I
think
> there is still a need for a charger like this. Some folks have
> sophisticated micro-processor controlled chargers but they only run on
> 220VAC or they pull too much current on 120VAC for most common
> outlets. Others are still using the large off-board chargers, and have to
> live without the ability to opportunity charge. I feel that no EV should
> depend on one charger. You should always have the option of a second
> one. Failures will occur and Murphy's Law says the charger will only fail
> when you have just heavily discharged the batteries. Any charger is
better
> than a dead charger.
>
> So, is this idea worth investigating? Has anyone built something like
this
> they wish to share?
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Mike Chancey,
> '88 Civic EV
> '95 Solectria Force
> Kansas City, Missouri
> EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have returned but I am not sure if I will stay or
take off again to tour RV parks up north. Now is the
time to do this. I have to wait until my grades are
listed before I can request my degree.
I returned from a tour of parks in S. CA. I went
south on Highway 101. As soon as I entered LA county
there were regular sightings of 'Electric Vehicle
charging station next exit' signs.
On my way back north on Highway 14, I stopped by a
charging location that was not on the
evchargernews.com site, but was listed on other EV
charging sites. I wanted to confirm what was what.
At the Lancaster Metro (train) station, I found four
LPI chargers and one evi mcs-600 (two 14-50 outlets).
The mcs-600 doors were locked. These EV charging
spots were installed in front in a prime parking lot
location. LA County installed a sign that said,
'Electric Vehicles or 15 minute parking'
(all these words were on one large sign behind the
charger).
So now there were five parking spots that GM EV1s
would charge off (but there aren't any EV1 available),
and the conductive charging is inaccessible (the
conductive charger doors are locked). Plus because
of the location of the spots and the wording of the
sign, ICE will likely be parked there :-(
I took pictures and a gps reading to submit to Tom
Dowlings evchargernews.com site. I hope he the
correct contact person to unlock the mcs-600 doors.
...
I read the responses to the POST I made before I
left on the status of the several small chargers.
I disagree with David's comments. I do not feel
there are DISadvantages.
Since each 12 V string is individually charged,
I do not believe balance monitoring is ^more^
essential than a 132 V pack charger that blasts
current through the entire pack whether the cells
need the charge or not. Each string will seek its
own balance.
The whole idea is to keep it an off the shelf KISS
(Keep It Simple Stupid) charging solution. There
won't be a need to adjust anything. The smart
charger does the thinking: charging, balancing,
maintaining, etc. No disadvantages from human error.
If one of my several small chargers goes out, it
has indicators to show that. It would be the same
situation as if one of my 132 VDC pack chargers went
out. No disadvantage, its the same.
I received my replacement chargers in less than a
week. I got the last one in three days. The warranty
is good for 3 years and they pay for the return
shipment.
I do not know of a smart 3 stage battery charger
that has a company that will get you your
replacement unit as fast, for free, and for three
years. Advantage, fast repair response, more EV up time.
...
I received an image of the Dual Pro charging curves
http://geocities.com/evcharging/images/dualprocurvesrm27.jpg
it is similar to the Sonel graphic I already POSTed.
Tomorrow, I want to bolt the replacement 3 bank
charger in, and start real life testing.
:-zzz
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As far as I know we are an overall exporter. We get some from Canada and
sell to Mexico. It just doesn't pay to ship natural gas. Pipe. That's the
way. Lawrence Rhodes......
----------------------------------------------------
This mailbox protected from junk email by Matador
from MailFrontier, Inc. http://info.mailfrontier.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Furniss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2003 10:33 AM
Subject: Re: OT Re: Fw: CNG Vehicles & Electric vehicles
> Will the CNG come from America fuel reserves or is it another imported
> energy?
>
> www.lasvegasev.com
> Richard Furniss
> Las Vegas, NV
> 1986 Mazda EX-7 192v
> 1981 Lectra Centauri 108v
> 3 Wheel Trail Master 12v
> Board Member, www.lveva.org
> Las Vegas Electric Vehicle Association
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Brad Waddell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2003 2:19 AM
> Subject: OT Re: Fw: CNG Vehicles & Electric vehicles
>
>
> > http://www.cngvc.org/ngv/cngvc.nsf/bytitle/order.htm To order the book.
> > http://www.ngv.org/ngv/ngvorg01.nsf/bytitle/stationlaunch.htm station
> > locator.
> > CNG is less expenisve than gas or diesel.
> > You can fill at home with a 1000 dollar compressor for 60 to 80 cents
per
> > gallon. Lawrence Rhodes......
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------
> > This mailbox protected from junk email by Matador
> > from MailFrontier, Inc. http://info.mailfrontier.com
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Brad Waddell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Friday, July 04, 2003 12:30 PM
> > Subject: Re: Fw: CNG Vehicles & Electric vehicles
> >
> >
> > > Can someone please tell me how you obtain natural gas for a CNG
vehicle?
> I
> > > know where you get propane - larger gas stations & truck stops, but
> where
> > > do you get CNG? And I'm assuming here that the reason you would want
to
> do
> > > this is for less emissions, but is there a cost benefit as well?
thanks.
> > >
> > > brad
> > >
> > > At 11:50 AM 07/04/2003 -0700, you wrote:
> > > >However, I
> > > > > can get a hold of many natural gas vehicles and if they are
> > interested, I
> > > > > can get as many as they want. They can be vans, truck and sedans
of
> > all
> > > > > sorts (S10, Ram Van, Crown Vic, Club Wagon, Civic, etc). Please
let
> > me
> > > > know
> > > > > if they would be interested in natural gas vehicles. Thank you
> > Lawrence!
> > >
> > >
> > > Brad Waddell ** FLEXquarters.com LLC ** voice-mail/fax: 602-532-7019
> > > Postal: 6965 El Camino Real Ste 105 #488 Carlsbad CA 92009 USA
> > > QODBC Driver for Quickbooks - Unleash your data at www.qodbc.com
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have invited them to join this list. Here is what they say about the
investment:
"The Lane's business plan calls for raising $5.6 million to start
production and build 208 cars the first year. Further investment of about
$12 million would allow full-scale production of up to 1,500 vehicles by
the third year. "
Not sure how that would cover safety testing. I hope they get online to
discuss, you all have may war stories that would help them.
brad
At 03:55 PM 07/05/2003 -0700, you wrote:
I wonder if they are prepared to meet federal requirements, crash test,
etc.? That has to be enormously expensive. Or perhaps the plan is to offer
it as a "kit car"?
Brad Waddell ** FLEXquarters.com LLC ** voice-mail/fax: 602-532-7019
Postal: 6965 El Camino Real Ste 105 #488 Carlsbad CA 92009 USA
QODBC Driver for Quickbooks - Unleash your data at www.qodbc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I found a mobility scooter at the local Good Will store for $19.95 plus
sales tax. It looked complete with no signs of significant damage or
abuse. So I bought it and took it home. I didn't have high hopes that
it would run.
When I got it home, I checked the voltages of its two U-1 12-volt batteries.
Voltages were about 12.6 and 12.0 volts. The included off-board charger
worked and I let it run while checking out other things. The key is missing
so I removed the switch and soldered the wires to the switch together.
I put blocks under the frame to keep the drive wheels off the ground and
tried to run it. And it did run! Or at least it ran with the wheels off the
ground. After additional charging, the battery resting voltages were about
13.0 and 12.9.
Today, I put the wheels on the ground and tried driving it. After a few
tentative back and forth movements I made a few runs up and down the
driveway at the breakneck speed of about 5 mph (my guess).
It was apparently built in 1989 by a company called A-BEC which no
longer makes scooters. It's got three wheels with 11-inch diameter
tires. It's large enough and looks sturdy enough for this overweight guy
to ride. It's got a 4-pole motor considerably larger than the usual 2-pole
motor that most scooters have.
I'm not sure what I'll do with this scooter. It should be a good toy and
could occasional be put to work on those occasions when I have
considerable distances to cover and when my arthritis acts up. If I'm
going to use it away from home, I will need a lift or a ramp to get it
into and out of my pickup truck.
Tom Shay
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Tom,
I don't know what model you have but the 2 bec scooters I have both break
down to fit in the car boot, so maybe yours will too without a ramp.
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Per the suggestions of one of our knowledgeable lurkers, I am doing
shallower discharges at first. Here is one down to 12volts, and its 5AH
of growth over the previous, and first, cycle on this batt. I do intend
to do some full cycles all the way down to 9.6v and see what that
capacity and heating look like. See:
http://home.ix.netcom.com/~fw/Discharge2-2.jpg or the Evercel Yahoo
files section.
I have managed to add an ambient temp sensor and have thus far got it in
my software for Discharge only. This helps put the heating in
perspective. And yes, Rich, I shall work on continuing the log until I
show a temp peak. May also see what it takes to get back down to 40C
although this will be a lot sitting on the cycler. My current method is
to discharge a batt, then set it on the cool concrete floor of the
garage with a cheapy temp sensor (not hooked up to the cycler) clamped
to it. It cools quickly which is good news for my cooling system which
is a serpentine of 1/2" copper pipe *beneath* the batts.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Recent lecture at University of Hartford on energy conversion stated that
the US gets 99 percent of its natural gas from existing natural gas well
in the continental 48 US states, imports the other 1 % from Canada, has
about
25 years left underground at current consumption rates, and there are
four ports around the country that have the capability to import
liquefied natural gas, but there is no super tanker fleet available now
that could handle any major natural gas shortage in the US, liquefied
natural gas is much more expensive than regular natural gas from a well
and more dangerous to import.
The California energy crisis was caused when there was not enough natural
gas to run the electrical generating power plants and other states just
continue to build more natural gas fired electrical generating plants.
The News has reported that existing natural gas wells have decreased in
pressure over years of use, it takes much longer ( 3 times longer or more
?) than before for these wells to replenish stored supplies and
certainly can not adequately supply new demands of more power plants
without shorting supply to some other requirement such as industry or
homes (domestic hot water & heat). Companies that drill for natural gas
say it does not pay for them to drill new wells at this time or can't get
investment dollars to drill at this time.
I don't know the real particulars on this situation, but it doesn't look
good for the average consumer as far as natural gas prices and electric
rates.
Higher electric rates at a time when EV's might start really competing
with ICE's. Is this just a coincidence ?
Menlo Park III,
Bill, Glastonbury, CT
On Sun, 6 Jul 2003 01:01:22 -0700 "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
> As far as I know we are an overall exporter. We get some from Canada
> and
> sell to Mexico. It just doesn't pay to ship natural gas. Pipe.
> That's the
> way. Lawrence Rhodes......
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> This mailbox protected from junk email by Matador
> from MailFrontier, Inc. http://info.mailfrontier.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Richard Furniss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2003 10:33 AM
> Subject: Re: OT Re: Fw: CNG Vehicles & Electric vehicles
>
>
> > Will the CNG come from America fuel reserves or is it another
> imported
> > energy?
> >
> > www.lasvegasev.com
> > Richard Furniss
> > Las Vegas, NV
> > 1986 Mazda EX-7 192v
> > 1981 Lectra Centauri 108v
> > 3 Wheel Trail Master 12v
> > Board Member, www.lveva.org
> > Las Vegas Electric Vehicle Association
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Brad Waddell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2003 2:19 AM
> > Subject: OT Re: Fw: CNG Vehicles & Electric vehicles
> >
> >
> > > http://www.cngvc.org/ngv/cngvc.nsf/bytitle/order.htm To order
> the book.
> > > http://www.ngv.org/ngv/ngvorg01.nsf/bytitle/stationlaunch.htm
> station
> > > locator.
> > > CNG is less expenisve than gas or diesel.
> > > You can fill at home with a 1000 dollar compressor for 60 to 80
> cents
> per
> > > gallon. Lawrence Rhodes......
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------------
> > > This mailbox protected from junk email by Matador
> > > from MailFrontier, Inc. http://info.mailfrontier.com
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Brad Waddell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Friday, July 04, 2003 12:30 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Fw: CNG Vehicles & Electric vehicles
> > >
> > >
> > > > Can someone please tell me how you obtain natural gas for a
> CNG
> vehicle?
> > I
> > > > know where you get propane - larger gas stations & truck
> stops, but
> > where
> > > > do you get CNG? And I'm assuming here that the reason you
> would want
> to
> > do
> > > > this is for less emissions, but is there a cost benefit as
> well?
> thanks.
> > > >
> > > > brad
> > > >
> > > > At 11:50 AM 07/04/2003 -0700, you wrote:
> > > > >However, I
> > > > > > can get a hold of many natural gas vehicles and if they
> are
> > > interested, I
> > > > > > can get as many as they want. They can be vans, truck and
> sedans
> of
> > > all
> > > > > > sorts (S10, Ram Van, Crown Vic, Club Wagon, Civic, etc).
> Please
> let
> > > me
> > > > > know
> > > > > > if they would be interested in natural gas vehicles.
> Thank you
> > > Lawrence!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Brad Waddell ** FLEXquarters.com LLC ** voice-mail/fax:
> 602-532-7019
> > > > Postal: 6965 El Camino Real Ste 105 #488 Carlsbad CA 92009 USA
> > > > QODBC Driver for Quickbooks - Unleash your data at
> www.qodbc.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
