EV Digest 2905
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Battery Box material
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Battery Box material - a few more details
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: OT Re: Fw: CNG Vehicles & Electric vehicles
by "Mark Abramowitz"<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Test
by "Reinhard, Rick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Battery Box material - a few more details
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Battery Box material
by Seth Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Ground Fault question
by russco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) power of DC photos
by Seth Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Battery Box material
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Ground Fault question
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) RE: [sparrow_ev] used optima yellow tops wanted
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: For real, or another battery salesman?
by Gordon Niessen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Homebuilt Simple Fairly Dumb Charger
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) used YTs in portland, oregon
by Travis Raybold <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: used YTs in portland, oregon
by "Eric Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Battery Box material
by Seth Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: [sparrow_ev] used optima yellow tops wanted
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
18) Re: For real, or...
by "The Levine Family" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Isolated Bad Boy Charger Usage
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Siemens AC Motors On TP
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) USB serial adapters & SIADIS software
by "Bryan Avery" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: 6 hours of high voltage hammering.
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: USB serial adapters & SIADIS software
by "Bryan Avery" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: USB serial adapters & SIADIS software
by "Cliff Rassweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: New EV to go into production
by "Bruce Tucker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Isolated Bad Boy Charger Usage
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: New EV to go into production
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
28) July meeting of NBEAA
by Nick Carter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: Isolated Bad Boy Charger Usage
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Re: Diecy 6 Dragster Vegas Shootout predicted this fall
by "tom peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
31) Re: Battery Box material - a few more details
by "tom peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
32) Re: My Bad-Boy charger
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
33) Re: Isolated Bad Boy Charger Usage
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
34) Re: Public design charger
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Which kind of Li=ions? The thundersky Li-ions don't appear to be very
powerful so a small pack of these will result in a VERY slow car.
On Mon, 2003-07-07 at 05:48, Mark Fowler wrote:
> Small car and Li-ions.
>
> See http://home.iprimus.com.au/fowler/ecar_stuff.html for some horribly outdated
> info :-)
>
> Mark
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter VanDerWal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, 7 July 2003 2:35 PM
> To: EV
> Subject: Re: Battery Box material
>
>
> That's a pretty small battery pack, is this a golf cart?
>
> Sheet metal should work, or that plastic they make barrels out of.
>
--
EVDL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sheet metal will be just as strong, lighter and much easier to weld to
the vehicle (assuming a steel frame). Unless the vehicle frame is made
out of aluminum, I would avoid using it for the battery box. Unless you
use stainless steel, mixing aluminum and steel usually results in
corrosion.
> The "box" could be as little as a frame made from angle iron/aluminium though I
> think I would prefer to have at least the base and sides enclosed since it will be
> open to the road and I'd like to protect the batts from rocks and other debris.
>
> My current thoughts are for a decent sized aluminium plate as the base, angle
> aluminium for the structure, and perhaps plastic for the sides.
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Bath [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, 7 July 2003 3:44 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Battery Box material
>
>
> The original question neglects whether the box is for
> structure, or vapor containment.
> If the structural member for the batteries is angle
> iron, then a 3/16" polypropylene box is great for
> insulating and to enclose H2 gas so that it doesn't
> come in contact with the main contactor or other
> source of spark. This also has the advantage of not
> corroding from acid vapors, and it's non-conductive
> If the structural member for the batteries _is_ the
> box of which you speak, then IMHO you must use
> something stronger such as the metal or wood.
>
> =====
> '92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
> (in progress)! ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel? Are
> you saving any gas for your kids?
>
--
EVDL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, on 07/06/03
at 08:41 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
>The California energy crisis was caused when there was not enough natural
>gas to run the electrical generating power plants and other states just
>continue to build more natural gas fired electrical generating plants.
Not accurate. The crisis had more to do with gaming by the power
producers, little to do with any shortages of natural gas.
There were some shortages for awhile of natural gas, but that was linked
to an energy company buying up all the line capacity from Texas, then not
using it.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Mark Abramowitz"<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
-----------------------------------------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This all I saw of this one.
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2003 9:32 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: test
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> Sheet metal will be just as strong, lighter and much easier
> to weld to the vehicle (assuming a steel frame). Unless the
> vehicle frame is made out of aluminum, I would avoid using it
> for the battery box. Unless you use stainless steel, mixing
> aluminum and steel usually results in corrosion.
In my experience, attaching aluminum to steel (by any means) is an
invitation for serious corrosion. Aluminum and 18/8 (3xx series)
stainless steel is a good match, used quite frequently in aircraft.
Carbon steel and stainless steel are a bad match, aggressively corroding
the carbon steel. If you have a steel chassis, make your additions to
it with steel. You're not talking about that big a difference in
weight.
If you must connect materials that don't like each other, you can
minimize the corrosive effects by making the joint water-tight. A
Galvanic couple needs an electrolyte. A properly sealed joint (which
can be surprisingly difficult to achieve in practice) might save the
day.
Some words of caution - many welders are way too concerned with
appearance at the expense of function. They consider a weld successful
if the two metals are joined and it "looks good". Some have been known
to weld two carbon steel parts using stainless filler rod because it
makes a pretty weld. No thought is given to the strength or corrosion
properties of the unknown metallurgical soup they've created. Caveat
Emptor.
Also be very careful when welding to an aluminum chassis unless you know
the alloys involved and how they should be welded. Remember that the
heat affected zone (which extends farther than what you see near the
weld) is fully annealed, and therefore can have a dramatically lower
str3ength than the rest of the member. Making a weld that looks good is
not the same as doing the job right.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For the sake of retaining batteries in a collision, and overall vehicle
strength, I prefer #16 sheet steel. It should be welded into the
floorpan
if in the rear. Bolt down with brackets under the hood.
do you feel that #16 sheet alone is strong enough to not need an angle
iron frame?
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to
all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
heh, I like that
Seth
--
QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION
http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> I have my new pack installed in my Tropica and I've modified
> my charger to remove the connection between AC neutral and
> chassis.
Vehicle chassis is connected to service ground, not neutral. Neutral is
grounded in the service panel, but ground and neutral require two
different wires; green ground and white neutral.
Never charge your vehicle without chassis being connected to the green
ground wire.
If the GFCI trips, there is a leakage path in the charger or vehicle.
Russ Kaufmann, Owner, dba
Russco Electro Mechanical Engineering Since 1976
Manufacturers of Anti Light Dimmer Fairly Smart EV Battery Chargers
Past Manufacturers of EV Controllers and Hydronic Heaters
EAA Santa Clara Rally 127 miles on one charge
EAA Fellow Award 1993
1800 watt grid tied photovoltaic system on site
(707)542-4151 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All,
I am sorry to have missed the Power of DC races this year. Next year
hopefully I can come down and race in the Z. I enjoyed the photos on
the power of DC website (thank you Greg Pokorny and Chip). does anyone
have some more photos, maybe some under the hood shots? I am naturally
particularly interested in the guts of the 240Z. thanks,
Seth
--
QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION
http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 2003-07-07 at 09:53, Seth Murray wrote:
> > For the sake of retaining batteries in a collision, and overall vehicle
> > strength, I prefer #16 sheet steel. It should be welded into the
> > floorpan
> > if in the rear. Bolt down with brackets under the hood.
> do you feel that #16 sheet alone is strong enough to not need an angle
> iron frame?
When it's only having to support 60kg? Sure, easy.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Russ,
The Tropica charger had an internal connection between neutral and chassis ground. Joe
described the design as "bizarre". I can send you the schematic if you want a laugh!
I've removed this jumper and tied the chassis to ground, the green wire. This works
fine during bulk charge but when I switch to low current for finish charge, it trips
the GFI. The only thing that should have changed is that a relay closed across a
resistor in the current sense circuit. I'll have to check again but I didn't see any
unexpected connections on the relay control. I'm trying to sort out where the leagage
is occuring during finish charge.
Steve
In a message dated 7/7/2003 12:00:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, russco <[EMAIL
PROTECTED]> writes:
>
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>
>> I have my new pack installed in my Tropica and I've modified
>> my charger to remove the connection between AC neutral and
>> chassis.
>
>Vehicle chassis is connected to service ground, not neutral. �Neutral is
>grounded in the service panel, but ground and neutral require two
>different wires; green ground and white neutral.
>
>Never charge your vehicle without chassis being connected to the green
>ground wire. �
>
>If the GFCI trips, there is a leakage path in the charger or vehicle. �
>
>Russ Kaufmann, Owner, dba
>Russco Electro Mechanical Engineering � � � Since 1976
>Manufacturers of Anti Light Dimmer Fairly Smart EV Battery Chargers
>Past Manufacturers of EV Controllers and �Hydronic Heaters �
>EAA Santa Clara Rally 127 miles on one charge
>EAA Fellow Award 1993
>1800 watt grid tied photovoltaic system on site
>(707)542-4151 � � � � � [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Craig is an interesting fellow. There is no doubt that he has built a
pretty hot little scooter. But many of his claims are difficult to
believe. I don't think those batteries are rechargeable. And he doesn't
say the batteries produce 1600A, just the rating on the controller. That
doesn't mean he is able to run long under that load. And he might be using
a contactor to do it. There is a question for you, If you add a 1600A
contactor to bypass a controller, can you call the combination a 1600A
controller?
You don't need a very powerful scooter to do a burn-out if you have a front
brake. Just apply the brake and then using you foot on the ground to let
you push forward on the handle bar to reduce the weight on the rear wheel
and then wait for the smoke. Your neighbors will probably not like you
practicing this maneuver.
At 02:26 AM 7/7/2003, you wrote:
I visited Mike Chancey's EV Album for the latest entries and found this:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/450.html -- under batteries, "Three 12 volt,
AGM with Custom Sodium/sulfur Mixed", and controller, "Modified PMC 36
volts, 1600 amps". First, what kind of batteries are these, second, how do
you modify a Curtis for 1600A, and third, why not a normal controller and a
really big bypass contactor?
He also mentions 0-70mph in 6sec and top speed >80 - someone in NEDRA might
want to invite him to a race, although his scooter probably wouldn't pass
tech. He *does* know Rudman's trick of braking the non-driven wheel (adding
a foot on the ground) to get a lot of smoke off the tires!
Maybe I've seen too much about Tilley and that $91K EV on eBay to believe
anyone anymore!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
> Rod, or Dave's point that UL won't even look at a charger unless it's
> isolated, pretty well outlines where a OEM charger should start.
No. UL does *not* say chargers need to be isolated. But they *do* set up
some pretty high hurdles to jump if it is not.
As soon as you get above about 30v, UL requires serious amounts of
insulation and shock hazard protection. But, virtually all consumer
products that use these higher voltages *are* non-isolated.
The basic technique is called "double-insulated", and you will find it
on almost every TV, electric drill, or large appliance. Double
insulation means there are two complete insulation systems between the
AC line and user, either one of which can be defeated and the product
will still pass all specs.
The difficulty of applying this to an EV is that EVERY SINGLE PART in
the high voltage wiring requires two sets of insulation good for 1000v +
2 times the AC line voltage (1250v or 1500v for 120vac or 240vac powered
products respectively), and a total of 3750v isolation between AC input
and any user-accessible parts. No normal EV motor, controller, battery,
contactor, or other parts can pass such a standard.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in -- Leonard
Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
if anyone wants used YTs in portland (oregon) area, let me know. ive got
20 pretty heavily used YTs that are headed for core return if noone
wants them. one or two are bulging, so its likely that a couple of
really bad batteries were dragging down my pack and that the rest still
have some life left in them. (they were in the car for 8000 miles). if
interested, let me know. all i really need to do is offset the core
charge, so im not looking for much for them.
with a bit of help from john wayland ive got the spyder emptied out and
anxiously awaiting new YTs this friday, woohoo! should have a new set of
rudman regs to help the new YTs be a little more comfortable too...
--travis
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
And I can add a few to those, too. Mine were heavily abused
before I ever saw them. I've babied the ones that worked, but
there is one with a big hole in one cell and a couple with bulges.
A few others are just plain tired.
Of the 24 without external anomolies, there may be a few that
can carry their weight for a little longer. As with Travis,
all I'd need is the $3.00 core fee.
I'd advise against anyone taking time with these, but it may
be worth it to someone.
Eric Johnson
Portland, OR
Waiting for new batteries for the eDatsun PU
>--- Original Message ---
>From: Travis Raybold <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>if anyone wants used YTs in portland (oregon) area, let me know.
ive got
>20 pretty heavily used YTs that are headed for core return if
noone
>wants them. one or two are bulging, so its likely that a couple
of
>really bad batteries were dragging down my pack and that the
rest still
>have some life left in them. (they were in the car for 8000
miles). if
>interested, let me know. all i really need to do is offset the
core
>charge, so im not looking for much for them.
>
>with a bit of help from john wayland ive got the spyder emptied
out and
>anxiously awaiting new YTs this friday, woohoo! should have
a new set of
>rudman regs to help the new YTs be a little more comfortable
too...
>
>--travis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Monday, July 7, 2003, at 01:44 PM, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
On Mon, 2003-07-07 at 09:53, Seth Murray wrote:
For the sake of retaining batteries in a collision, and overall
vehicle
strength, I prefer #16 sheet steel. It should be welded into the
floorpan
if in the rear. Bolt down with brackets under the hood.
do you feel that #16 sheet alone is strong enough to not need an angle
iron frame?
When it's only having to support 60kg? Sure, easy.
let's see, that's 132 pounds...how about closer to 200 lbs? I'm just
thinking about my own battery box for the rear of the Z car which needs
to hold 4 optimas and also essentially become part of the unitbody...
Seth
--
QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION
http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jon,
If you are looking for used YTs, best to check EVers local to your area.
Otherwise the shipping will easily offset any used-pricinging discount.
BR,
Ed Thorpe
Alameda, CA (with ~12 used YTs, but too far to reasonably ship)
BTW - I'm posting your request on the EVDL, so see if there are any takers
in upstate NY.
-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Dickason [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 10:14 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [sparrow_ev] used optima yellow tops wanted
anyone have any used optima yellow tops? 3 of mine are really bad and
I'm trying to avoid replacing the whole pack for a while.
Jon Dickason
Rochester NY
#236
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<Craig is an interesting fellow. There is no doubt that he has built a
pretty hot little scooter. But many of his claims are difficult to
believe. I don't think those batteries are rechargeable. And he doesn't
say the batteries produce 1600A, just the rating on the controller.>>
The only sodium/sulfur batteries I know of are the molten kind - a little
hot to be under your feet! There are plenty of primary (non-rechargeable)
battery types around, but the closest to his that I know of is lithium
sulfate - don't know why he describes them as AGM, though...
As for the controller, yes, maybe his controller can handle more amps than
his batteries put out, but still: how do you pack 1600A capacity into a 36V
Curtis case - just the heatsink would be HUGE! I'm no engineer, but that
much current would vaporize most things in milliseconds!!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How 'bout bad girl for a change?
Victor
Lee Hart wrote:
>
> 1sclunn wrote:
> > What do you call (other that dangerous ) a charger that runs off
> > the two hot legs with one diode on each and uses the middle or
> > ground as the negative. "a double dealing bad boy"?
>
> I guess that's as good as any. Maybe "twin bad boys"?
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I guarantee you Siemens wouldn't even consider talking to these guys,
let alone dealing with them.
Victor
David Chapman wrote:
>
> Hi all,
> Couple of weeks ago I saw those Siemens AC Drives on the Tradin Post and
> like many of you I sent them an inquiry. I just got a reply today that the
> lot has already been sold. I was wondering if anyone knows who got them and
> what they are going to use for inverters? Victor told me he couldn't sell an
> inverter without a drive. Maybe the buyer made a deal direct with Siemens?
> Should be interesting. David Chapman.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> Tom Hudson wrote:
> >
> > >
>
> > You shouldn't have to pay $5000 for a battery charger just to get a safe,
> > reliable charge. Anyone out there interested in working on this?
>
> I do it all with out a micro, and hand you 2500 watt from 120 and 5000
> watts from 240, and this for $1500.
> This is a long cry from $5000.
I'm curious to see this $5000 charger. I have top of the line ones with
micros and all bells and whistles for a bit over $3k.
So which chargers are you talking about (unless you just make up numbers
to express your unsatisfaction)?
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Or... what about port replicators (the non-USB type) for laptops? Would
a laptop see the serial port on a port replicator just like a hardware
port or is it a "virtual" port like some of the USB-serial adapters
create. I understand that the SIADIS software can have difficulty
recognizing virtual serial ports created by some of the USB-serial
adapters. Is this a function of the fact that it is a virtual and not a
"real" serial port, or does it have more to do with how the particular
USB adapter behaves?
-Bryan Avery
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
> Behalf Of Bryan Avery
> Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 2:31 PM
> To: 'EV Discussion List'
> Subject: USB serial adapters & SIADIS software
>
> I know there was a discussion a couple months ago along these lines,
but
> has anyone had any success using any of the various available USB
serial
> adapters with the SIADIS software to connect to the Siemens inverters?
>
>
>
> -Bryan Avery
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bryan,
I posted the original question and never found a solution. SIADIS is a DOS
program and does not play well under windows 98. The USB serial adapters I
have need windows98. The general feeling seemed to be that it was easier to
get a cheap laptop and run DOS.
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bryan Avery" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'EV Discussion List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 5:31 PM
Subject: USB serial adapters & SIADIS software
> I know there was a discussion a couple months ago along these lines, but
> has anyone had any success using any of the various available USB serial
> adapters with the SIADIS software to connect to the Siemens inverters?
>
>
>
> -Bryan Avery
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
They came to one of our Ventura County EAA meetings last year, and I just
recently had a call from them. I haven't seen their car yet, but now that
they are local to me (Thousand Oaks, CA) I'm hoping to soon. They seemed
like nice folks.
Bruce Tucker
Ventura County EAA
I cannot connect to their website either.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2003 12:47 PM
Subject: Re: New EV to go into production
> Cool looking car. Anybody know anything about these folks? I personally
> find it a bit odd that, even though they have dozens of photo's of the
> car, not one indicates that it's actually electric. No photos of the
> motor, or battery, or instrument cluster. It doesn't even have a real
> license plate on it.
>
> On Sat, 2003-07-05 at 11:42, Brad Waddell wrote:
> > Not sure if you have all seen this new page yet, still under
construction.
> > Another ambitious project that hopefully will see the road!
> >
> > http://www.universalelectricvehicle.com/
> >
> > brad
> >
> > Brad Waddell ** FLEXquarters.com LLC ** voice-mail/fax: 602-532-7019
> > Postal: 6965 El Camino Real Ste 105 #488 Carlsbad CA 92009 USA
> > QODBC Driver for Quickbooks - Unleash your data at www.qodbc.com
> >
> >
> --
> EVDL
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> > > Tom Hudson suggested a open source charger, I assume he means
> > > isolated (if I read his intentions correctly). I'd be happy to
> > > contribute a little time to that project, especially if it fit's the
> > > specs I want (32A input, PFC, isolated, smart, inexpensive etc) If
> > > there is interest I'll set up a mailing list for it, or we could just
> > > do it on evtech.
> > >
> > > --
> > > -Otmar-
What's the key words in above statement?
"If it fits the specs I want".
Trouble is everyone wants different specs.
Also, I'm afraid, selling such a charger for the cost (if it ever
gets built) will not save much money. The cost includes creators' time.
If this time is 100% donated, then the cost of the charger is just
its hardware and manufacturing cost.
Despite my wish for such a project to succeed I think universal
fits all charger is not possible for the same reason as universal
fits all car. There is no such thing.
It would be more-less possible if 99% of the people will agree
to only use 156V single string group 27 Optimas (no deviations
allowed), or something like that.
I think the crowd is more diverse and ambitious than that.
I'll be in minority (I always am, doesn't bother me), but can tell
right away I wouldn't want such a charger.
This doesn't mean idea is bad. I just don't see it being realistic.
Hope I'm wrong.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
*************************MEETING ANNOUNCEMENT***************************
The July meeting of the North Bay Chapter of the Electric Auto
Association will be held on Saturday July 12th from 10am - 12 noon
at Harmony Farm Supply and Nursery in Sebastopol.
Our subject will be the MDI Zero-Emission Vehicle
that runs on compressed air. Our featured speaker
will be Jean-Pierre (JP) Maeder, CEO and founder of
ZEVCAT, (http://www.zevcat.com) who will explain the
technology and his business concept of raising funds
with investors to establish a local Bay Area dealership.
JP's bio is available online at
http://www.zevcat.com/jp.html
and a brief video showing his recent visit to
the MDI plant in France is at
http://www.zevcat.com/video/mdi_visit.rm
Nick Carter, NBEAA President will also give a brief
report on his recent visit to the Th!nk factory
in Aurskog, Norway.
There will also be an opportunity to see the new
public EV charging station at Harmony Farm Supply
and any EV'er wishing to do so can avail themselves
of some solar electrons while the electricity meter
spins backwards!
Location:
Harmony Farm Supply and Nursery,
3244 Hwy. 116 North,
Sebastopol, CA 95472
Date: 12th July from 10am-12 noon
Contact: Tom Danaher ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Tel: 707 823-9125
Web sites: http://www.harmonyfarm.com
http://www.zevcat.com
Driving directions:
Harmony Farm Supply is located on the West side of I-116
(Gravenstein Highway), just North of the intersection of
Graton Road and Frei Road, about 4 miles North of Sebastopol
downtown. From 101, take Guerneville Road heading West,
until reaching the T-junction at I-116. Turn left and
Harmony farm is less than a mile on the right hand side.
Further directions at: http://www.harmonyfarm.com/HFSmap.jpg
*************MEETING ANNOUNCEMENT***************
Dr Nick Carter,
Owner, npc Imaging,
2228 Magowan Drive, Santa Rosa, CA 95405
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel/fax: +1 (707) 573 9361
http://www.npcimaging.com
Th!nk City EV driver &
President, North Bay Electric Auto Association
"Spare the air every day - drive electric!"
***************************************************************
** Medieval plug-in and November font now available **
** Finale Power 20% off! Music Engraving Today in stock **
** Ted Ross & Handbook of Instrumentation on CD-ROM **
** 49 CD sheet music titles: thousands of pages from $18.95! **
** Books by Stone, Ross, Gerou & Lusk, Stiller, Gamble, etc. **
** Dover miniature scores bundled with Naxos audio CDs **
***************************************************************
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hmmmm, "bad girl" just might fit better with the "two hot legs"
comment. How about Femme Fatale Charger?
--- Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> How 'bout bad girl for a change?
>
> Victor
> > 1sclunn wrote:
> > > What do you call (other than dangerous ) a charger that runs
> off
> > > the two hot legs with one diode on each and uses the middle or
> > > ground as the negative.
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Richard, keep us posted. I was planning on hauling my electric to Woodburn
in a couple of weeks. But if NEDRA is going to have sanction runs in Vegas
I will do it there. I just live just 3 doors up the street in Utah.
Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Furniss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 9:15 PM
Subject: Re: Diecy 6 Dragster Vegas Shootout predicted this fall
> I'm still working with the track to get a date for the fall EVent but it
> sounds like it shaping up to be FUN.
>
> www.lasvegasev.com
> Richard Furniss
> Las Vegas, NV
> 1986 Mazda EX-7 192v
> 1981 Lectra Centauri 108v
> 3 Wheel Trail Master 12v
> Board Member, www.lveva.org
> Las Vegas Electric Vehicle Association
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 1:02 PM
> Subject: Re: Diecy 6 Dragster Vegas Shootout predicted this fall
>
>
> > Sparks will fly with Shawn Lawless and Orange Juice in firm command and
> still
> > stepping up his program in the East,
> >
> > other mid wester NASA funded Netgains Estimate
> > 9sec.qt.mi. best enginered electric show dragster BAD what? ( time to
> get your
> > tires broke in)
> > Jim lu and Ken Koch and Circuit Breaker
> are
> > Making Noise you see there 240volt records gona go away at Vegas in the
> > fall(one way or another)
> > Bill Dube and Killa? Mega?cycle,the track is very tight in Vegas in
the
> > fall you will stick your slick, you may have to defend your record.
> >
> > Electric Louie and new boulder powered dragster,
> > Eric an Tracie Miller an there record
breaker
> > JR.The challenger JR from Utaw
> > Dennis Kill A Watt Berube an current eliminator in what voltage
> class?
> > RICHARD FURNAS an company,,,,,,,,,
> > BRING IT ON
> > OUTLAW......................................Dennis Kill A Watt Berube
> >
> >
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The corrigated plastic they make real estate signs out of should work well.
And I have seen boxes made out of this material in the post office and other
places.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 7:04 AM
Subject: RE: Battery Box material - a few more details
> Thanks for the suggestions and ideas so far :-)
>
> Sorry, I should have been more specific.
>
> The box is for structure.
> The batts are sealed Li-ions, and shouldn't dribble, spit or fart during
normal use (I hope...)
>
> The "box" could be as little as a frame made from angle iron/aluminium
though I think I would prefer to have at least the base and sides enclosed
since it will be open to the road and I'd like to protect the batts from
rocks and other debris.
>
> My current thoughts are for a decent sized aluminium plate as the base,
angle aluminium for the structure, and perhaps plastic for the sides.
>
> Mark
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Bath [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, 7 July 2003 3:44 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Battery Box material
>
>
> The original question neglects whether the box is for
> structure, or vapor containment.
> If the structural member for the batteries is angle
> iron, then a 3/16" polypropylene box is great for
> insulating and to enclose H2 gas so that it doesn't
> come in contact with the main contactor or other
> source of spark. This also has the advantage of not
> corroding from acid vapors, and it's non-conductive
> If the structural member for the batteries _is_ the
> box of which you speak, then IMHO you must use
> something stronger such as the metal or wood.
>
> =====
> '92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
> (in progress)! ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wh
eel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You could use a 12v 25 amp transformer to bring up the 120ac to 132 . hook
the 12 v side in series with the bridge rec and power the primary . the
voltages will either add or subtract so you might have to switch the primary
wires around . You can then control the primary of the transformer with
light dimmer ect to control the charger and will only have to deal with a
few amps or 1 /10 the output. Bad boy with his Third world cousin ? Or
if you have a big aux batterie with a way to unplug it easy you could throw
it in line (the DC side)to up the voltage . assault a battery on a bad boy?
.
steve Clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Coate" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 8:34 PM
Subject: Re: My Bad-Boy charger
> So with all the talk of bad boy chargers... are there tricks with
> capacitors or inductors to *increase* the current? I have a 132 volt
> pack and was playing with a big rectifier as a potential quick charge
> for special use on road trips, but it very quickly drops to <15 amps,
> slower than the smart charger.
>
>
>
> Joe Smalley wrote:
> > That is a just a TWC and a Bad Boy in parallel.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> > > One I haven't seen yet is the one I call a double dealing bad boy .
>
>
> _________
> Jim Coate
> 1992 Chevy S-10
> 1970s Elec-Trak E20
> http://www.eeevee.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> How 'bout bad girl for a change?
>
> Victor
>
Oh Man!!! I'm still rolling on the floor over this one! Good one, Victor.
See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 3:02 PM -0700 7/7/03, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> > > Tom Hudson suggested a open source charger, I assume he means
> > isolated (if I read his intentions correctly). I'd be happy to
> > contribute a little time to that project, especially if it fit's the
> > specs I want (32A input, PFC, isolated, smart, inexpensive etc) If
> > there is interest I'll set up a mailing list for it, or we could just
> > do it on evtech.
> >
> > --
> > -Otmar-
What's the key words in above statement?
"If it fits the specs I want".
Trouble is everyone wants different specs.
Good point Victor.
Also, I'm afraid, selling such a charger for the cost (if it ever
gets built) will not save much money. The cost includes creators' time.
That is true too. But if a bunch of interested parties donate
development time, as well as documentation and sourcing time and
funds (for group buys), then people could possibly build their own.
It's tough, I know, especially with power electronics. But if most of
it comes from Digikey it might just work. :-)
If this time is 100% donated, then the cost of the charger is just
its hardware and manufacturing cost.
Despite my wish for such a project to succeed I think universal
fits all charger is not possible for the same reason as universal
fits all car. There is no such thing.
It would be more-less possible if 99% of the people will agree
to only use 156V single string group 27 Optimas (no deviations
allowed), or something like that.
I think the crowd is more diverse and ambitious than that.
I'll be in minority (I always am, doesn't bother me), but can tell
right away I wouldn't want such a charger.
This doesn't mean idea is bad. I just don't see it being realistic.
Hope I'm wrong.
I went for a hike yesterday. I've also been working on a power supply
for too many months now, so I'm somewhat familiar with the issues
around them.
I usually do my best systems engineering when hiking. I don't know if
this idea is good, but I'll put it out there. I've included my choice
of the ideas that I've heard, plus my own thoughts.
Here's what I'm thinking for a public project charger:
5 amps input (~1000 watts at 220V) per module.
Reason: it's easy to do with PCB traces and cheap heat sinks.
No need to parallel many power devices or bend up buss bars. Target
power parts SPP06N80C3 at about $1 each. Output current 11A or less,
easy with small parts.
Up to 2 modules per case. 3" square case about 10" long. Air cooled
with a 3" fan on one end. (modular like Todd chargers, but with a
control board and temp sensors on each sub section)
Modules could be configured for different voltages by changing the
transformer windings internally. 1 module could be configured from
96V to 156V nominal. Modules would then be put in series or parallel
for more voltage or current.
A high voltage AC car would need 3 or 6 modules to function. Lower
voltage cars could run on any number in parallel.
Topology could be a current fed push pull running at 68 khz. Two
switches, one inductor and one transformer give a PFC isolated
supply. Advantage is very compact topology and pretty efficient,
Drawback is odd control and high ripple current output caps required.
Magnetics could be hand wound torroids, like what you see in car
stereo amps. They are easy to get in low quantity. (I haven't checked
the size of these, I'm assuming they'd fit in the 3" case) It would
probably require a group buy of triple insulated litz wire for the
output. (assuming we want UL style isolation).
Base design could allow 60hz ripple current to go on to the
batteries, added filter (more cost) could smooth that out for those
who care (those with high impedance batteries).
The charger processor would know the input current, input voltage,
output voltage and at least one internal temperature. It could
estimate the output current (for protection) if no master controller
was watching it for the charge algorithm.
Algorithm control would be by EVIL bus. This off loads the charge
profiles to another processor which could control any number of these
at the same time (and do battery monitoring). A very simple single
node controller could be made for those who are not yet using EVIL
bus, which at the moment is pretty much everyone. :-)
I could see people soldering these up themselves and getting together
in groups to test them.
Thoughts anyone?
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com
Mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
