EV Digest 2907
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Ground Fault question
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Re: Public design charger
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Isolated Bad Boy Charger Usage
by russco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: 6 hours of high voltage hammering.
by "Tom Hudson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: New EV to go into production
by Brad Waddell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: 6 hours of high voltage hammering.
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Diecy 6 Dragster Vegas Shootout predicted this fall
by "Richard Furniss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: ampabout
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Ground Fault question
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Diecy 6 Dragster Vegas Shootout predicted this fall
by "Shawn Lawless" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Diecy 6 Dragster Vegas Shootout predicted this fall
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) Re: Battery Box material
by Aaron Birenboim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: 6 hours of high voltage hammering.
by Aaron Birenboim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Diecy 6 Dragster Vegas Shootout predicted this fall
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
15) Corrosion guidelines WAS: Battery Box material
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) article: Lithium Technology Corporation Receives Orders For Advanced
Prototype Automotive Batteries
by Paul Wujek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: USB serial adapters & SIADIS software
by "Tim Clevenger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE-switched capacitor battery equalizer
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) May be some new Optima YTs in Portland
by "Eric Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: OT Re: Fw: CNG Vehicles & Electric vehicles
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: 6 hours of high voltage hammering.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: 6 hours of high voltage hammering.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: New EV to go into production
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: New EV to go into production
by "Jorg Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
Thanks for the reply. My answers are below.
In a message dated 7/7/2003 9:11:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> First, I'm assuming it's a 120vac charger, which has 1 hot, 1 neutral,
> and 1 ground wire, right? A 120vac GFCI works by comparing the AC hot
> current to the AC neutral current. If they are equal, then no current is
> leaking to ground and it is happy. If the currents aren't the same, the
> GFCI presumes there is current flowing to ground, and shuts off.
>
Yes it's a 110v charger connected to hot, neutral and ground.
> These GFCI's don't normally use the ground wire, except when you push
> the "test" button (which connects a resistor between AC hot and ground).
>
> So, when they connected neutral and ground in the charger, they provided
> an alternate path for the neutral current to flow that doesn't need to
> go thru the GFCI. I would have expected this to make the GFCI *more*
> likely to trip, because some current would flow in the neutral wire,
> which unbalances the current sense. Unless, of course, they also CUT the
> ground wire so it didn't go to the AC outlet any longer (forcing ground
> wire currnt to always be zero). In other words, if they didn't ground
> the car frame, but connected it to neutral instead. This would have the
> effect of DEFEATING the GFCI!
>
You guesed it. The chassis was connected to neutral and the ground only went to the
case of the charger which was mounted with plastic screws on an insulator. The chassis
and the charger case are now at ground and the connection from the internal caps to
gnd has been removed.
> > I measured the voltage across a 15k resistor placed betwen
> > the pack and chassis and got only 18mv.
>
> While charging? AC or DC?
Not while charging. DC.
> Does the frequency stay the same? Or is it a higher frequency *and*
> narrower "on" pulse width to get the lower charging current?
>
I believe the freq stays constant.
>
> Yes, it would. Batteries sitting in a metal frame do have a significant
> amount of capacitance to ground. So do motors and controllers, if they
> are connected during charging. And, most GFCIs are designed for normal
> consumer products, which (thanks to the FCC) usually have at least some
> noise filtering to keep down the amount of high frequency harmonics.
>
The controllers and motors are isolated during charging. There is a Corcom (sp?)
filter on the AC input to the charger. The only other thing connected to the pack is
the Vicor.
> So, it is possible that you have a lot of capacitance to ground, and
> high frequency noise from the charger is causing a lot of AC ground
> current, and the GFCI is not built to reject such noise and so falsely
> trips.
Do you have any suggestions for determining if this is the problem and how I might fix
it? I just completed bulk charge with the internal charger and now I'm doing a manual
finish with my Fair Radio. I'm really missing the automatic charger and don't want to
damage my new batteries.
thanks again,
Steve
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ri
ng the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in --
> Leonard
> Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Using a motor controller for a charge controller:
An AC controller uses half bridges that allow the controller to take AC
power in though the motor leads and send the power back to the battery. When
operating the vehicle, this is called regenerative braking. To do it from
utility power, one needs to break two of the stator wired to the motor.
Connect the line between one of the cuts and leave the other one open. This
will leave the motor inductance between the line and the half bridges. This
requires two motor current rated switches (typically over 100 amps) and two
Line current rated switches (Typically 50 amps). This charger architecture
will provide PFC if the designer chooses to program it into the half bridge
controls. Isolation will need to be added between the utility and the
controller if isolation is required.
A typical buck DC controller CANNOT pass power from the motor side to the
battery side because it uses a single switch to chop the DC instead of using
a half bridge. To use the controller (assuming a high voltage DCP 600 amp)
as a charge controller, 1) the input to the controller needs to be
disconnected from the battery pack (typically about 600 amps), 2) the motor
negative must be disconnected from ground (typically about 1000 amps), 3)
the motor negative must be connected to battery positive (~50 amps), 4) a
rectifier output must be connected to the input to the controller. The
rectifier can be either simple or power factor corrected and either isolated
or non isolated. A control needs to be added to regulate the current to stay
within the capability of the supply and to keep the battery pack voltage
within the operating envelope of the batteries.
Either way, you will need to add two 50 amp contactors to switch the line
power into the circuit and add two battery current rated contactors to
conduct motor current during motoring operation. These additional contactors
need to be interlocked so the charging contactors will not engage at the
same time as the motoring contactors (nor vice versa).
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peri Hartman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 9:50 PM
Subject: Re: Public design charger
> I keep wondering... if one were to design a controller that's also
intended
> to be a charger, wouldn't there be some savings of combining the regen
> circuit and the charging circuit? Both need to handle high voltage and
> current. If you're running an A.C. motor, it seems half the battle is
> already won. But, I think a simple rectifier could hook onto the front of
a
> D.C. system and still let the controller do all the charging work.
>
> Peri Hartman
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
> I echo Victor's statments, you guys don't know the costs and processes
> that go into hardware design, and the monumental efforts to get just 3
> Bit heads to agree on a simple communications port protocol. Witness the
> Evil buss and Sheer's atempts to impliment it in a timely manner.
>
> I am spreading my self thin trying to make as many happy as possible. I
> am not taking %100 of the market, what am I doing wrong?
> With all the goodies that you all wish to have, your charger will come
> in at about $3000, and not much profit. Strip it back to a bare bones
> power processor, and a on off switch, and now you have a product in your
> cost ball park. Add in as much control logic as you can afford, and you
> will be right where I am right now.
>
> Oh yea dumping Iso will save you about $200. THAT's a big chunk of a
> $1000 charger. Much nore if you drop the cost line at $750.
>
> Most of us on this list can wack out a Basic program that voltage
> regulates and current limits some sort of a switch. That's the easy
> part.
> Iso is brutaly heavy or brutally complicated(HF)
> PFC is a mess unless you go active, or really heavy.
> Control is a matter of what is wanted.
> The enclosure is spendy and makes or breaks a Professional product.
>
> Just remember I just spent the last 24 months doing just this.
>
> I can answer most of your questions with experience. The rest I am still
> learning about.
Nothing like lotsa ambition.
But listen to Rich.
Been there, done that....
Russ Kaufmann, Owner, dba
Russco Electro Mechanical Engineering Since 1976
Manufacturers of Anti Light Dimmer Fairly Smart EV Battery Chargers
Past Manufacturers of EV Controllers and Hydronic Heaters
EAA Santa Clara Rally 127 miles on one charge
EAA Fellow Award 1993
1800 watt grid tied photovoltaic system on site
(707)542-4151 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I'm curious to see this $5000 charger. I have top of the line ones with
> micros and all bells and whistles for a bit over $3k.
>
> So which chargers are you talking about (unless you just make up numbers
> to express your unsatisfaction)?
Victor,
I'm the one who brought up the $5000 number. I was guessing a bit high, but
not that high. A Brusa 3.3KW charger is 5,970 CHF = $4,349, not including
shipping or import duties.
-Tom
Thomas Hudson
http://portdistrict5.org -- 5th District Aldermanic Website
http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More
http://portgardenclub.org -- Port Washington Garden Club
http://portlightstation.org -- Light Station Restoration
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 02:59 PM 07/07/2003 -0700, you wrote:
I cannot connect to their website either.
Yea, pretty bad timing really, I saw it up just Saturday. The said there
are no photos of the prototype inside because it is not finished in there.
brad
Brad Waddell ** FLEXquarters.com LLC ** voice-mail/fax: 602-532-7019
Postal: 6965 El Camino Real Ste 105 #488 Carlsbad CA 92009 USA
QODBC Driver for Quickbooks - Unleash your data at www.qodbc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The last time I talked to Power Designers about their EV charger, they
wanted $6700 for a 6 kW unit
http://www.powerdesigners.com/products/PowerCharge/Pchahv_b.pdf (not
including any options.) If someone is near a phone during the day, they
might call to get a current price.
I had a co-worker purchase two 12 kW 300 Volt chargers from Schaefer for
about $11000 each about a year apart.
http://www.schaeferpower.com/pdf/C5800.pdf
Another supplier is Major Power with their line of industrial chargers at
http://www.majorpower.com/majorcharge/industrial.html. I thought their 10 kW
units were about $16000 a couple years ago.
Big and/or expensive chargers are out there.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Hudson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 11:02 PM
Subject: RE: 6 hours of high voltage hammering.
> > I'm curious to see this $5000 charger. I have top of the line ones with
> > micros and all bells and whistles for a bit over $3k.
> >
> > So which chargers are you talking about (unless you just make up numbers
> > to express your unsatisfaction)?
>
> Victor,
>
> I'm the one who brought up the $5000 number. I was guessing a bit high,
but
> not that high. A Brusa 3.3KW charger is 5,970 CHF = $4,349, not including
> shipping or import duties.
>
> -Tom
>
> Thomas Hudson
> http://portdistrict5.org -- 5th District Aldermanic Website
> http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More
> http://portgardenclub.org -- Port Washington Garden Club
> http://portlightstation.org -- Light Station Restoration
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tom,
Keep in mind that the NEDRA nationals (the big race) is August 31st at
Woodburn. If you don't break your car there then you will get another chance
here in Vegas a couple of months after Woodburn.
"If you don't break something then you aren't trying hard enough"
www.lasvegasev.com
Richard Furniss
Las Vegas, NV
1986 Mazda EX-7 192v
1981 Lectra Centauri 108v
3 Wheel Trail Master 12v
Board Member, www.lveva.org
Las Vegas Electric Vehicle Association
----- Original Message -----
From: "tom peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 4:36 PM
Subject: Re: Diecy 6 Dragster Vegas Shootout predicted this fall
> Richard, keep us posted. I was planning on hauling my electric to
Woodburn
> in a couple of weeks. But if NEDRA is going to have sanction runs in
Vegas
> I will do it there. I just live just 3 doors up the street in Utah.
> Tom
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Richard Furniss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 9:15 PM
> Subject: Re: Diecy 6 Dragster Vegas Shootout predicted this fall
>
>
> > I'm still working with the track to get a date for the fall EVent but it
> > sounds like it shaping up to be FUN.
> >
> > www.lasvegasev.com
> > Richard Furniss
> > Las Vegas, NV
> > 1986 Mazda EX-7 192v
> > 1981 Lectra Centauri 108v
> > 3 Wheel Trail Master 12v
> > Board Member, www.lveva.org
> > Las Vegas Electric Vehicle Association
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 1:02 PM
> > Subject: Re: Diecy 6 Dragster Vegas Shootout predicted this fall
> >
> >
> > > Sparks will fly with Shawn Lawless and Orange Juice in firm command
and
> > still
> > > stepping up his program in the East,
> > >
> > > other mid wester NASA funded Netgains
Estimate
> > > 9sec.qt.mi. best enginered electric show dragster BAD what? ( time
to
> > get your
> > > tires broke in)
> > > Jim lu and Ken Koch and Circuit
Breaker
> > are
> > > Making Noise you see there 240volt records gona go away at Vegas in
the
> > > fall(one way or another)
> > > Bill Dube and Killa? Mega?cycle,the track is very tight in Vegas in
> the
> > > fall you will stick your slick, you may have to defend your record.
> > >
> > > Electric Louie and new boulder powered dragster,
> > > Eric an Tracie Miller an there record
> breaker
> > > JR.The challenger JR from Utaw
> > > Dennis Kill A Watt Berube an current eliminator in what voltage
> > class?
> > > RICHARD FURNAS an company,,,,,,,,,
> > > BRING IT ON
> > > OUTLAW......................................Dennis Kill A Watt Berube
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yesterday, I easily bolted in the replacement 3 bank
Dual Pro SE charger unit. As soon as I plugged it in
all 3 bank's red leds lit up and started working.
I plugged in all the rest of the Dual Pro chargers.
It was a pleasant sight to see all their red leds on.
But the pack was not empty. I had fully charged it
before I took my S. CA trip a few days ago. The
chargers would only be pumping current as long
as it takes to replace what amp hours were lost
from self discharge and to bring the surface
voltage up. I unplugged and went on a short trip
to run an errand and burn up some amps.
These chargers say they are rated at a 10 amp
output but the graphic
http://geocities.com/evcharging/images/dualprocurvesrm27.jpg
states at the bottom they are charging a srm 27
(group 27) battery over a 10 hour period and the
current tapers instead of holding until reaching
a certain voltage.
If at a @20h rate a Trojan 27TM is 105 ahs and a
T-145 is 244 ahs, then the T-145 is twice the
capacity thus will take twice as long to charge.
Today, I burned up some amps to bring my pack
down 15 miles out of 50 before getting with our
local EAA guru to take readings of these
chargers and compare them to my known EV chargers.
Measured 0707/03 with a Fluke 40
12 V battery strings: two 6V US-145s
----------------------------------
dualpro.com model SE 120 VAC
charger multiple 12 VDC outputs
AC load: one 2 bank + two 3 banks + one 4 bank
(only four 12 VDC banks being sampled)
.83 Power Factor Correction
38% THD
Output: 13 VDC
-
119.5 VAC under load
11.6 amps AC
1.17 kw
DC output:
6.8 amps DC
6.6 amps DC
6.7 amps DC
6.8 amps DC
-
-
115 VAC under load
9.5 Amps AC
.9 kw
DC output:
5.1 amps DC
4.6 amps DC
5.3 amps DC
4.8 amps DC
-
-
110 VAC under load
7.2 amps AC
.66kw
DC output:
2 amps DC
3.8 amps DC
4 amps DC
2 amps DC
-
-
chargers shutdown under 110 VAC
-
----------------------------------
zivan.it model K2 120 VAC charger
set for 132 VDC
.84 Power Factor Correction
45% THD
Output: 150 VDC
-
114 VAC under load
14.6 amps AC
1.42 kw
DC output:
9 amps DC
-
-
110 VAC under load
13.2 amps AC
1.22 kw
DC output:
7.6 amps DC
-
-
109 VAC under load
12.3 amps AC
1.14 kw
DC output:
9 amps DC
-
----------------------------------
manzanitamicro.com model PFC-50
90-240 VAC charger set for 132 VDC
.97 Power Factor Correction
7% THD
Output: 150 VDC
-
111 VAC under load
12.6 amps AC
1.35 kw
DC output:
8.8 amps DC
-
:-zzz
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
These GFCI's don't normally use the ground wire, except when you push
the "test" button (which connects a resistor between AC hot and ground).
Hm. Technically you don't "need" to have an active ground with a modern
GFCI; they use the resistor around the sensor circuit so it can work
without a ground.
In fact, I think the latest NEC rules allow you to replace a
non-grounded outlet with a GFCI and plug grounded things into it. The
outlet does need a "GFCI non-grounded outlet" sticker on it.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Richard,
Do you have any prospective dates for Vegas? I would really like to get my
car there to run against the best but it's going to take some serious
planning on my part to pull it off. I'm about 2200 miles from the track.
Please let us know asap.
Kevin and Net Gain crew: would you be interested in sharing the cost of
shipping both rails in one truck from Chicago to Vegas? I could get my car
there fairly easy.
Jim and Ken: I hope this all works out. Although I had a great time in
Vegas this spring meeting and having breakfast with both of you, it would be
the ultimate to actually line up our cars together. Thanks to you my
transmission is holding together now and may even make it through the
season.
Dennis: Will the CE4 get back into the 8's in October?
This is getting exciting!!!
Shawn Lawless
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Furniss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 3:37 AM
Subject: Re: Diecy 6 Dragster Vegas Shootout predicted this fall
> Tom,
>
> Keep in mind that the NEDRA nationals (the big race) is August 31st at
> Woodburn. If you don't break your car there then you will get another
chance
> here in Vegas a couple of months after Woodburn.
>
> "If you don't break something then you aren't trying hard enough"
>
> www.lasvegasev.com
> Richard Furniss
> Las Vegas, NV
> 1986 Mazda EX-7 192v
> 1981 Lectra Centauri 108v
> 3 Wheel Trail Master 12v
> Board Member, www.lveva.org
> Las Vegas Electric Vehicle Association
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "tom peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 4:36 PM
> Subject: Re: Diecy 6 Dragster Vegas Shootout predicted this fall
>
>
> > Richard, keep us posted. I was planning on hauling my electric to
> Woodburn
> > in a couple of weeks. But if NEDRA is going to have sanction runs in
> Vegas
> > I will do it there. I just live just 3 doors up the street in Utah.
> > Tom
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Richard Furniss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 9:15 PM
> > Subject: Re: Diecy 6 Dragster Vegas Shootout predicted this fall
> >
> >
> > > I'm still working with the track to get a date for the fall EVent but
it
> > > sounds like it shaping up to be FUN.
> > >
> > > www.lasvegasev.com
> > > Richard Furniss
> > > Las Vegas, NV
> > > 1986 Mazda EX-7 192v
> > > 1981 Lectra Centauri 108v
> > > 3 Wheel Trail Master 12v
> > > Board Member, www.lveva.org
> > > Las Vegas Electric Vehicle Association
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 1:02 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Diecy 6 Dragster Vegas Shootout predicted this fall
> > >
> > >
> > > > Sparks will fly with Shawn Lawless and Orange Juice in firm command
> and
> > > still
> > > > stepping up his program in the East,
> > > >
> > > > other mid wester NASA funded Netgains
> Estimate
> > > > 9sec.qt.mi. best enginered electric show dragster BAD what? ( time
> to
> > > get your
> > > > tires broke in)
> > > > Jim lu and Ken Koch and Circuit
> Breaker
> > > are
> > > > Making Noise you see there 240volt records gona go away at Vegas in
> the
> > > > fall(one way or another)
> > > > Bill Dube and Killa? Mega?cycle,the track is very tight in Vegas
in
> > the
> > > > fall you will stick your slick, you may have to defend your record.
> > > >
> > > > Electric Louie and new boulder powered dragster,
> > > > Eric an Tracie Miller an there record
> > breaker
> > > > JR.The challenger JR from Utaw
> > > > Dennis Kill A Watt Berube an current eliminator in what
voltage
> > > class?
> > > > RICHARD FURNAS an
company,,,,,,,,,
> > > > BRING IT ON
> > > > OUTLAW......................................Dennis Kill A Watt
Berube
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Shawn Lawless writes Dennis will you be in the 8s in vegas in the fall?
Shawn,October is Trick or Treat month,We
will see.Shakeing the trick bag now. Dennis
Kilowatt Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seth Murray wrote:
On Monday, July 7, 2003, at 01:44 PM, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
On Mon, 2003-07-07 at 09:53, Seth Murray wrote:
For the sake of retaining batteries in a collision, and overall vehicle
strength, I prefer #16 sheet steel. It should be welded into the
floorpan
if in the rear. Bolt down with brackets under the hood.
do you feel that #16 sheet alone is strong enough to not need an angle
iron frame?
When it's only having to support 60kg? Sure, easy.
let's see, that's 132 pounds...how about closer to 200 lbs? I'm just
thinking about my own battery box for the rear of the Z car which needs
to hold 4 optimas and also essentially become part of the unitbody...
It is possible that if you weld sheed dividers between bateries
in the box, you will have a strong box structure which will
hold the weight.
If you go with a unibody-style (not frame-like) battery box,
you would need an intimately attached lid, which fits snugly
with the battery dividers to complete the box structure.
Acid spill is a problem... would a Rhino (like) coat take
care of this problem?
--
Aaron Birenboim | This space available!
Albuquerque, NM |
aaron_at_birenboim.com |
>http://aaron.boim.com |
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Rich Rudman wrote:
Tom Hudson wrote:
You shouldn't have to pay $5000 for a battery charger just to get a safe,
reliable charge. Anyone out there interested in working on this?
I do it all with out a micro, and hand you 2500 watt from 120 and 5000
watts from 240, and this for $1500.
This is a long cry from $5000.
I'm curious to see this $5000 charger. I have top of the line ones with
micros and all bells and whistles for a bit over $3k.
Feel free to post recommendations. (Mail direct to me if
you do not want to advertize to the list)
So which chargers are you talking about (unless you just make up numbers
to express your unsatisfaction)?
Brusa chargers are in this range.
--
Aaron Birenboim | This space available!
Albuquerque, NM |
aaron_at_birenboim.com |
>http://aaron.boim.com |
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Kevin and the Netgain crew,and Bad.. Shawn and Orange Juice,you are both more
than welcome to tap into the genset I have on the trailer(in between the
14min.drinks the CE needs)Are you driving through DENVER on the way to Vegas?He
can use my genset too! Dennis Kilowatt Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Tromley wrote:
...Aluminum and 18/8 (3xx series)stainless steel is a good match, used quite
frequently in aircraft...
Everything else in that post sounded good, Chris, but as someone who has
worked with stainless doublers on aircraft, I needed to expand on this.
I can tell you that this can be a bad thing. The less noble metal in any
pair in contact will corrode. In this case it is aluminum. There are many
old (C-135 and 707 type) aircraft out there that had stainless doublers and
clips installed to aluminum with nothing but a poorly applied coat of fay
surface sealant and a layer of primer between them. Examining them today,
the stainless is fine, but the aluminum has rotted away underneath. You
wouldn't want this to happen to an aircraft structural member in flight or
to your battery box while driving, either.
Most airlines and airplane OEM's now require that if you attach a piece of
stainless to aluminum that the stainless be cadmium plated, then primed with
two coats of epoxy primer, then installed with fay surface sealant. Even
then there are places it is prohibited. After assembly, it is covered with
a light penetrating petroleum product, with the intent of this product
entering the smallest crevices and displacing water. That's a lot of
effort!
There is no real way to stop corrosion, even without dissimilar metal
problems. But you can slow it down to an infinitessimal rate. That is what
the many layers of protection mentioned above are intended to do.
Excluding moisture as much as you can slows down corrosion a lot, but
moisture will eventually get in. Usually it enters in the form of vapor and
then condenses. A crack will form over time in the sealant and let it in,
or something will get scratched, etc. If there are dissimilar metals in
contact under the sealant, then corrosion proceeds quickly in a place you
can't see it.
Now if you can isolate the materials, as well as sealing effectively, then
now corrosion will proceed much more slowly, even after moisture does get
in.
So for attaching stainless to aluminum (for example), you would want a thin
shim of non-metallic material between the primed and painted pieces, and the
whole thing sealed properly. The non-metallic shim adds electrical
isolation, making dissimilar metal corrosion much more difficult, since it
involves an electrochemical cell.
If a fastener goes through the joint, you could also install a bushing as an
effective barrier to keep the fastener from being an electrical bridge
between the two mentals, but most of the time, fasteners are just coated in
wet sealant before installation. Since the fastener draws the joint up
tight, and usually comes with some corrosion protection of their own, this
is usually considered safe. Of course, most corrosion problems start at
fasteners...
This all brings up the question - how much is enough for an EV? I lean
towards the following:
1. Use similar materials where possible.
2. Prime and paint (or powder coat) each piece.
3. Install with a coat of sealant between the pieces.
4. Install fasteners with a coat of wet sealant over them.
This is the way most of my EV is put together (at least the parts I have
worked on), and it tends to minimize problems with ground faults and battery
acid corrosion, as well as minimizing "regular" corrosion.
IMPORTANT - THIS MESSAGE (INCLUDING ANY ATTACHMENTS) IS INTENDED ONLY FOR
THE USE OF THE INDIVIDUAL OR ENTITY TO WHICH IT IS ADDRESSED, AND MAY
CONTAIN INFORMATION THAT IS PRIVILEGED, CONFIDENTIAL AND EXEMPT FROM
DISCLOSURE UNDER APPLICABLE LAW. IF YOU ARE NOT THE INTENDED RECIPIENT, YOU
SHOULD DELETE THIS MESSAGE IMMEDIATELY AND YOU ARE HEREBY NOTIFIED THAT ANY
READING, DISSEMINATION, DISTRIBUTION OR COPYING OF THIS MESSAGE, OR THE
TAKING OF ANY ACTION BASED ON IT IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED. THANK YOU.
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--- Begin Message ---
A company with a contract to produce LiIon batteries for the Future
Truck competition.
link:
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/07-08-2003/0001977863&EDATE=
--
Paul Wujek
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Bryan,
From my experiences, the port replicators on Toshiba laptops use direct
wire-to-wire connections to real hardware ports with real UARTs. I used to
do QA for some credit card processing software that also required a "real
hardware modem" (readable from DOS--no "Winmodems"), and it worked properly
from the docking stations on Toshiba Satellite Pro 440/480/490 and Tecra
8000/8100/8200 laptops. I believe most other Toshibas are similar.
Tim
----------
From : "Bryan Avery" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To�:� <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject�:� RE: USB serial adapters & SIADIS software
Date�:� Mon, 7 Jul 2003 14:52:15 -0700
Or... what about port replicators (the non-USB type) for laptops? Would
a laptop see the serial port on a port replicator just like a hardware
port or is it a "virtual" port like some of the USB-serial adapters
create.�
_________________________________________________________________
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
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--- Begin Message ---
Jonathon just got back from vacation and
posted a response.....
Lee's concerns are valid. We are working to improve
performance,
hopefully
without enormous capacitors. The system I have now
will work
adequately on 12
A-hr batteries for ~$6 capacitor cost (low-volume
pricing) for a
two-battery
system. After being away from it, I have some new
ideas that might get
us the
order of magnitude improvement we need, plus there are
other capacitor
technologies we can investigate.
I am also going to investigate inductance effects,
which can be
positive or
negative. Pallab Midya, who got his PhD here, wrote a
paper on
switched-
capacitor converters with inductance. Essentially,
without inductance,
there
is an upper limit on efficiency, and efficiency is
monotonically
increasing
with decreasing resistance. With inductance, there
are no limits on
efficiency, neither upper nor lower, and improper
timing can result in
very
low performance.
By the way, Prof. Krein has published a few papers on
battery
equalizing, in
which he showed that voltage balance within 10 mV is
needed to extend
battery
lifetime.
Jonathan
--
Jonathan Kimball
Kimball Power Electronics
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
217-621-1753
http://kimballpowerelectronics.home.att.net
> What do you think about Lee's response?
>
> --- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 20:38:51 -0700
> > From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: Switched capacitor battery equalizer
> >
> > Rod Hower wrote:
> > >
> > > An ex coworker from Baldor Motors and Drives
> > stopped
> > > buy for the weekend. He switched jobs and is
now
> > > working at the University of Illinois. One of
his
> > > projects is developing an interesting battery
> > > equalizer.
> > > You can see the concept at the Patent office.
> > > http://www.uspto.gov/patft/index.html
> > > 5,710,504
> > > Unlike many of the other balancers this system
> > > does not shuttle overcharge current to a
resistor.
> > > I would like to get some feedback from the
> > > balancing guru's on the list.
> >
> > This method, dubbed the "flying capacitor" method,
> > has been discussed
> > many times. I even tried it myself some years ago,
> > and posted the
> > results. Briefly, it works, but not well enough to
> > justify itself.
> >
> > The fundamental problem can be seen if you simply
> > parallel two lead-acid
> > batteries, and watch the current that flows
between
> > them. The current
> > falls to an insignificant level very quickly, and
it
> > takes many DAYS for
> > them to reach the same state of charge.
> >
> > Another problem is that the efficiency is not very
> > good. The voltage
> > difference between batteries is consumed by the
> > capacitor's ESR and the
> > voltage drop or resistance of whatever switching
> > devices you use.
> >
> > Finally, it takes an enormous capacitor value to
> > transfer any
> > significant number of amphours. If you try to
> > compensate with a high
> > switching frequency, then switching losses in the
> > switches burn up still
> > more energy.
> >
> > Performance can be significantly improved just by
> > adding an inductor in
> > series with the capacitor. By properly timing the
> > switching, the
> > capacitor can be resonantly charged to a higher
> > voltage from one
> > battery, and then resonantly discharged into the
> > other battery. This
> > drastically reduces the capacitance value
required,
> > and significantly
> > lowers the peak current, reducing switching and
I^2R
> > losses.
> >
> > But, now you have in effect a typical switching
> > power supply. Exactly
> > the circuit this patent says is too complicated
and
> > expensive.
> > --
> > Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that
still
> > can ring
> > 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect
> > offering
> > Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in
> > everything
> > leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light
gets
> > in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I hope there won't be, but we've not heard from one of the four
of us buying these nice, new YTs at only $108.95 each (plus only
$3.00 core charge).
Craig Savage is first in line for the 13 YTs we are getting for
him. However, since I will have to pay for these if he doesn't
step forward real soon now, they will be available at our cost.
I hope there's just been some holiday-related miscommunication,
but will need to recover this unplanned investment. And keep
the batteries from sitting any longer than necessary.
So, Craig, contact me ASAP if you still want the batteries.
Otherwise, others can let me know if they want some. We will
have a few extras, so up to 16 may be available. If you're in
the Portland, Oregon area and at all interested in a set of YTs,
this is the time! (Or not, if Craig resurfaces.) I'd like to
sell them as a set of at least 13, so as not to end up with too
few to make a matched set for someone.
It'll be nice to get these on the road.
Eric Johnson
Portland, OR
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
503-348-6392
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--- Begin Message ---
There were some shortages for awhile of natural gas, but that was linked
to an energy company buying up all the line capacity from Texas, then not
using it.
Did they get in trouble for this behavior? Lawrence Rhodes.......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Update from the Rhodes Battery barbeque. Many of the batteries never come
up much over 9.6v. (These are 8v Delphis) The ones that do come up first
and try to rocket past 10v but the trusty Rudman regs keep them from
selfdistructing. I went 10 miles yesterday and the pack was down to between
127 and 128v. Not bad but I may be getting some bounce back as the sag was
more than usually. I have lost some capacity in the pack. The car will be
good for short trips around town. No more Berkeley or San Mateo. Maybe
Oakland. Lawrence Rhodes........
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Doesn't seem to be a good small charger. Something that will charge like
the PFC chargers be small and light and designed to quickly charge sub 250
pound packs. I need something for my motorcycle. The Vicor power supply
was great but it really isn't designed for the voltages I need. Would
really like something half the size or less of the Rudman charger that John
Wayland uses in the Blue Meanie. Now that I think of it my bike is one
quarter the weight of the Meanie and has almost half the weight in
batteries. Maybe I should get some Hawkers. Boost the voltage to 72v and
really fly. Lawrence Rhodes....
----------------------------------------------------
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 9:17 PM
Subject: Re: 6 hours of high voltage hammering.
> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> >
> > Rich Rudman wrote:
> > >
> > > Tom Hudson wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > You shouldn't have to pay $5000 for a battery charger just to get a
safe,
> > > > reliable charge. Anyone out there interested in working on this?
> > >
> > > I do it all with out a micro, and hand you 2500 watt from 120 and 5000
> > > watts from 240, and this for $1500.
> > > This is a long cry from $5000.
> >
> > I'm curious to see this $5000 charger. I have top of the line ones with
> > micros and all bells and whistles for a bit over $3k.
> >
> > So which chargers are you talking about (unless you just make up numbers
> > to express your unsatisfaction)?
> >
> > Victor
>
> Umm Victor I did NOT come up with the $5K. I know your nice kickass
> charger is 3000 plus.
> Not my numbers.
> --
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
> www.manzanitamicro.com
> 1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Maybe a sand rail frame with a kit body over it. They are light. Sub 1000
pounds with the motor and tranny in and running.....Lawrence Rhodes......
----------------------------------------------------
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from MailFrontier, Inc. http://info.mailfrontier.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jorg Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 10:27 PM
Subject: RE: New EV to go into production
> I don't mean to be a downer, but my eyes just glaze over at people's new
> electric car projects. The hurdles to making a full-on electric car are
> enormous - including lots of regulatory hurdles, red ink, etc. Just ask
> the AC Propulsion people why the tZero hasn't made it yet. Or the
> tropica folk. Or the 3-wheeler...
>
> Biggest thing is, when someone else builds it, they not only lock you
> into a style of car (sport car, sedan, truck, 4x4, whatever), they also
> lock you into a type of propulsion, and a battery technology.
>
> I'm sick of being forced to pick between the two extremes of expensive
> pre-built electrics whose manufacturers are going broke, and inexpensive
> old gassers in need of lots of conversion labor.
>
> I don't want an electric vehicle anymore. Right now what I want is a
> cheap, LIGHT, chassis with a big, low-center-of-gravity battery box.
> Give me a speedometer, ammeter, and voltmeter, make it rear-wheel drive,
> and give me a way to pick my own gear ratio, my own motor, my own
> controller, my own battery.
>
> Surely, someone...
>
> jorg
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Brad Waddell
> Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2003 11:43 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: New EV to go into production
>
> Not sure if you have all seen this new page yet, still under
> construction.
> Another ambitious project that hopefully will see the road!
>
> http://www.universalelectricvehicle.com/
>
> brad
>
> Brad Waddell ** FLEXquarters.com LLC ** voice-mail/fax: 602-532-7019
> Postal: 6965 El Camino Real Ste 105 #488 Carlsbad CA 92009 USA
> QODBC Driver for Quickbooks - Unleash your data at www.qodbc.com
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
But can it handle an additional 1400 pounds of batteries + motor +
riders?
jorg
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 9:32 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: New EV to go into production
Maybe a sand rail frame with a kit body over it. They are light. Sub
1000
pounds with the motor and tranny in and running.....Lawrence
Rhodes......
----------------------------------------------------
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from MailFrontier, Inc. http://info.mailfrontier.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jorg Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 10:27 PM
Subject: RE: New EV to go into production
> I don't mean to be a downer, but my eyes just glaze over at people's
new
> electric car projects. The hurdles to making a full-on electric car
are
> enormous - including lots of regulatory hurdles, red ink, etc. Just
ask
> the AC Propulsion people why the tZero hasn't made it yet. Or the
> tropica folk. Or the 3-wheeler...
>
> Biggest thing is, when someone else builds it, they not only lock you
> into a style of car (sport car, sedan, truck, 4x4, whatever), they
also
> lock you into a type of propulsion, and a battery technology.
>
> I'm sick of being forced to pick between the two extremes of expensive
> pre-built electrics whose manufacturers are going broke, and
inexpensive
> old gassers in need of lots of conversion labor.
>
> I don't want an electric vehicle anymore. Right now what I want is a
> cheap, LIGHT, chassis with a big, low-center-of-gravity battery box.
> Give me a speedometer, ammeter, and voltmeter, make it rear-wheel
drive,
> and give me a way to pick my own gear ratio, my own motor, my own
> controller, my own battery.
>
> Surely, someone...
>
> jorg
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
> Behalf Of Brad Waddell
> Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2003 11:43 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: New EV to go into production
>
> Not sure if you have all seen this new page yet, still under
> construction.
> Another ambitious project that hopefully will see the road!
>
> http://www.universalelectricvehicle.com/
>
> brad
>
> Brad Waddell ** FLEXquarters.com LLC ** voice-mail/fax: 602-532-7019
> Postal: 6965 El Camino Real Ste 105 #488 Carlsbad CA 92009 USA
> QODBC Driver for Quickbooks - Unleash your data at www.qodbc.com
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
