EV Digest 2911
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Life with a Jet Electrica EV report - getting OT
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: New EV to go into production
by Mike Swift <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Making PCBs
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) 4 hp blender
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: RE-switched capacitor battery equalizer
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Life with a Jet Electrica EV report - getting OT
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Re: 4 hp blender
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Rain out!
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9) Re: Max equalizing voltage for Sparrow charing ?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Ground Fault solved
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Rain out!
by "Shawn Lawless" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Ground Fault solved
by "Shawn Lawless" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Life with a Jet Electrica EV report
by "Dave Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Public design charger
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Public design charger
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: A Buck a Watt
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Life with a Jet Electrica EV report
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Life with a Jet Electrica EV report
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Rain out!
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Begin Message ---
This all may be true - for deepest remission in 50 years.
Even a girl with 25.4 mm long nails hopes it won't stay
in remission for years. ALso, modern cars go 50k miles,
(best ones - 100k miles) without any maintenance, even minor
tune up. If she can't afford mechanic once every several
years (which is far less than gasoline over these years), she
can ask neighbor who has similar car.
TO tell you a little secret - I don't fix things until they
broken, and auto shops often make things worse. I don't
trust them (haven't been in many though).
I own Montero SUV - my work horse I bought used ('95 model)
in 1996. My wife owns little 2 door '91 Tercel we use as backup
car, like I drive it to work right now while my EV is being
upgraded.
I don't remember doing anything to either car (other than
changing oil every perhaps half year. No maintenance until
it breaks. And it keeps not breaking, just like my EV.
Lucky? Perhaps. Point is, it practically doesn't cost me money
(other than gas) to run them. I get in, turn key, go.
Come back, park. Next day turn key, do. Day in, day out
since 1991 and 1995 respectively.
Same with EV, but I invest my time in it (yes, it's hobby).
If it wouldn't be a hobby, I'd drive it just as I do these
ICEs, investing nothing in it.
And, since we know, overall costs of ownership are about
the same, it doesn't matter much what gets me from A to B.
Yes, Tercel emits some. And, I do have fun with my EV, it's cleaner,
it's unusual, it's right thing to have, it's a little status if
you will. But simple fact is, Tercel gets me from A to B just as
successfully. And I happen to have cars to mainly get me
from A to B, not to brag too much about its guts. Even more so
for my wife (EV, shmEV, just get me there and back home when
I need it). Don't get me wrong, she'd be happy to drive an EV.
But she's just as satisfied with Tercel, because both serve
*her* at the moment equally well. Makes practical sense to her,
and I have to agree.
Victor
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Hi Joe,
> When times are good and everyone either has a good job or a high enough
> fixed income I would agree with you, but when times are tough like a
> recession or depression even Joe Average or an old lady or a girl with
> inch long nails may not be able to afford to have their car maintained or
> repaired by their neighborhood garage or dealer.
> With bank and savings bond interest rates at a 50 year low, alot of
> people on a fixed income can't afford to have their car maintained or
> fixed by anyone but themselves. People are remaining unemployed for an
> average of 18 months today since over 2.5 million jobs have left the
> country, over the past 3 years, and those unemployed can not afford to
> have their car maintained or fixed by anyone other than themselves. Cars
> designed to be easily maintained or fixed would cost less for the
> consumer to own even if maintained or repaired by someone other than the
> owner because it would take less time. Emission regulations also require
> spending up to $ 500 to bring a car up to standards. EV's don't have
> that requirement :-).
>
> On Wed, 09 Jul 2003 13:41:55 -0700 Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> writes:
> > I'll reply on this one and it may make you think.
> >
> > I love EVs, I have one, plan to do another one, but you aren't going
> > to like this (speaking for Joe Ave):
> >
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes, but every time I need to change something related to the
> > internal
> > > combustion engine in my 1986 Firebird such as the starter motor,
> > > radiator, heater core, water pump, fuel pump, alternator, exhaust
> > system
> > > (muffler & catalytic converter, pipes), radiator hoses, fan belts,
> > oil &
> > > filter (every 3000 miles for in and around town use), tune ups
> > (plugs,
> > > wires, distributor cap, rotor) or antifreeze I say you know, I
> > don't have
> > > these problems with my EV :-).
> >
> > 1. You know what? When was last time you had problems with any of
> > this
> > in USA? The shop gladly taking care of it for you in on every few
> > blocks
> > in average city, competing to do this work. An old lady or a girl
> > with an inch long nails can easily take care of her car this way.
> >
> > On the other hand, who knows what inside of your lectric car?
> > I'd want one but don't want to mess with it, just drive it and have
> > someone take care of it. Ready to pay. Who can do it? No one in my
> > block.
> > Sorry.
> >
> > > And to make matters even worse, the
> > > internal combustion engine designers don't leave any room or any
> > extra
> > > slack on wires or anything else to make it easy to work on by
> > anyone.
> > > And now you can't even work on some of the newer cars since they
> > have
> > > everything jam packed under the hood especially if you look under
> > the
> > > hood of the Toyota Prius or Honda Insight electrics where they
> > have both
> > > the internal combustion and electric propulsion systems.
> >
> > 2. I don't buy a car to work on it, I buy it to drive it to places.
> > That's what a car is for for 95% of the plain people like me.
> > Why Toyota (at its expense) should make it easy to work on for
> > remaining 5% you belong to? Get real.
> >
> > > Lets not forget the pollution is centralized at the power plant
> > instead
> > > of spread out all over the country and that you are not going to
> > die in a
> > > FIREBALL from gasoline leaking onto a hot catalytic converter
> > after a
> > > collision.
> >
> > 3. I may agree, but FOR ME TODAY this does not outweigh 1. and 2.
> >
> > Until it will, EVs will remain a hobby for these 5%. Nothing wrong
> > with it, just I, Joe Ave, happen top belong to other 95%.
> >
> > I met Victor, and he's saying that I got it all wrong. As I see it,
> > he's nuts, have to have a shop, a skill, a time, a special knowledge
> > beyond average, an inspiration, other sacrifices just to drive an EV
> > in
> > places I can drive to without all these problems. And, my 5 liter
> > Mustang excites *me* no less than his ACRX excites him.
> >
> > Take care,
> > Joe.
> >
> >
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
> Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
> Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From the information we have seen on this "New EV" it appears that it
is just another piece of vaporware. Someone mocks up a body then
announces that it is "close" to production as soon as the manufacturing
plant is finished. If you have any money to invest they can make you a
"good" deal on the ground floor : ).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anyone out there used PCB123 service to order PCBs? Is their
free software any good or I better use something else?
Any comments experiences or advise welcome.
Thanks in advance,
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I got the electric outboard boat motor to do "barrel tests" tonight. As
in run the outboard in a barrel full of water. For those who are
interested: It is a 48V nominal buck converter, 22kHz switching
frequency, discrete ISOTOP mosfets and soft recovery fast freewheeling diodes.
I was able to load it to 60A at 50 volts tonight, the prop cavitates
enough to limit the draw to that figure.
A few things I noticed:
Field weakening: I assumed that as I had a "fan" motor, I didn't need
low speed torque, so I could field weaken my sep ex golfcar motor a lot.
The field resistance is 1.0 ohm, so I put a 400W, 0.5 ohm resistor in
series. It appears I was too greedy as I get a bit less power this way
than with a directly connected field. I was hoping Rod Hower's comment
of 10-15% field weakening as a place to start was conservative. I guess
not. I can go to a 0.33 ohm field weakening resistor next. I need to see
what happens when I don't cavitate, too.
Cycle by cyle current limiting:
It seems to work on the bench, but in practice, it isn't. I am sensing
current when I test with a Fluke i1010 DC current clamp. With a Fluke
111 meter, I get a peak reading of 300A. I have a curretn limit set at
~135 amps. I can't see it on the meter, but it records the value with
the MIN/MAX function. The DC side sees ~200A when I record the same way.
I have no idea what the slew rate on my current transducer (an old, old
LEM) is, I figure it has to be better than 10A per usec. I also don't
know the inductance of my motor. THe DC resistance of the motor is under
55 milliohms. Also the rated frequency response of the i1010 curretn
clamp is 10 kHz. I switch at 22kHz. It is very much a transient
(remember it is a "fan" load) as the back EMF climbs very fast. With a
~3Hz refresh on the DMM, I never see much over 100A.
The only change before I sealed it up was to RTV silicone the caps
together to keep them from vibrating, and the same for the current sense
measurement resistor (1.7 ohm to make a 200mV shut down voltage when the
current transducer hits 133mA output). I don't think this would short
the resistor to the point that it would not work. I also use the
silicone on the 2nF timing cap so if it had any serious leakage, I would
haev messed up timing, and it is still 22kHz.
Did I break my current limit function or do I disbelieve my Fluke
current clamp? I take the whole thing on vacation in 2 days. I don't
want to un-seal the controller unless I have to.
Suggestions?
Other than that it makes a really nice blender:)
Seth
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich,
I agree with your assements of the educated
type with little EV experience.
Hopefully I can bridge the gap and make
something usefull out of their research and
yours. I will keep them updated with your
real world research and their 'scientific'
results. Hopefully something usefull will
result from the combination.
Rod
--- Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Rod Hower wrote:
> >
> > Maybe he meant 100mV.
> > Jon is a pretty smart guy (4.0 GPA EE BS degree
> > and 3.86 Masters).
> > They aren't equalizing EV packs yet, but
> > I'm sure his research will be beneficial to
> > the EV community once it gets there.
> > P.S. Don't be so subtle Rich, just speak
> > your mind! :-)
>
> Rod, that's not a real hard thing for me to do!
> Hey I really don't want to piss folks off, but with
> the Rags these guys
> have show(PHD and Prof..) they don't have a lot of
> data to back them up.
> If they are trying, and learning I sure can help
> them. If they are after
> Earth shattering battery equalizer investment
> moneies, I am out to make
> there life a bit rough.
>
> The numbers just stood out as really tight, and any
> of us who have
> charged Ev packs knows that that level is too tight.
> They will spend a
> ton of money making gear that will hold batteries
> that close, when it is
> not needed.
>
> It looks like thier experience is "book work", they
> need some Lab work
> time, and a whole range of battery sizes and
> chemistry set ups before
> they sight published data.
>
> I have "thing" against folks with way too much
> schooling telling us
> knuckle draggers what is right and wrong without any
> real data to back
> it up. GPA has nothing to do with what they know in
> this subject. I know
> 4 pointers that can't do resistance divider calcs.
> And hey I was called
> a "Young know it all" not too far back. When I drove
> my Ev into the
> monthy meeting with a hand made controller, and
> battery charger... I
> went from "one O'them" to one of "us".
>
> What they could ask is, What level of regualtion
> matters? and address it
> to those of us who make battery chargers and BMS
> systems. I am sure I
> don't know it all, but on some points I have a
> couple of years of
> painful practice.
>
> I have been making Regs since 1996. That's getting
> to be a long time.
>
> I am hunting for "Tilley" type folks, but hiding
> behind thier
> credentials. If these guys are on the level, lets
> help them come up to
> speed.
>
>
> --
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
> www.manzanitamicro.com
> 1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Again, I agree that most modern cars go 50 k to 100 k miles before
repairs get costly, and about 100 K was when I started replacing major
components (one after another because the cost of a new car was not
reasonable) but most lower and middle class people can not afford to
spend $ 15 K and up for a new car these days and you might notice that
even the upper class car companies are offering rebates because sales are
off.
One of my co-workers spent $ 250 at a dealer to have a new set of plugs
and wires put in his 2001 Ford 4 cylinder pickup truck instead of
spending maybe $ 50 in parts and a Saturday or Sunday doing the work
himself.
He is only 40, has a wife, teenager, a house with a garage, is able to do
the work, and really doesn't have the money to give the mechanic, but did
anyway.
This guy may have wished he did the job himself when his regular job ends
in another month and his only income becomes unemployment.
On Wed, 09 Jul 2003 18:43:29 -0700 Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
> This all may be true - for deepest remission in 50 years.
> Even a girl with 25.4 mm long nails hopes it won't stay
> in remission for years. ALso, modern cars go 50k miles,
> (best ones - 100k miles) without any maintenance, even minor
> tune up. If she can't afford mechanic once every several
> years (which is far less than gasoline over these years), she
> can ask neighbor who has similar car.
>
> TO tell you a little secret - I don't fix things until they
> broken, and auto shops often make things worse. I don't
> trust them (haven't been in many though).
>
> I own Montero SUV - my work horse I bought used ('95 model)
> in 1996. My wife owns little 2 door '91 Tercel we use as backup
> car, like I drive it to work right now while my EV is being
> upgraded.
>
> I don't remember doing anything to either car (other than
> changing oil every perhaps half year. No maintenance until
> it breaks. And it keeps not breaking, just like my EV.
> Lucky? Perhaps. Point is, it practically doesn't cost me money
> (other than gas) to run them. I get in, turn key, go.
> Come back, park. Next day turn key, do. Day in, day out
> since 1991 and 1995 respectively.
>
> Same with EV, but I invest my time in it (yes, it's hobby).
> If it wouldn't be a hobby, I'd drive it just as I do these
> ICEs, investing nothing in it.
>
> And, since we know, overall costs of ownership are about
> the same, it doesn't matter much what gets me from A to B.
> Yes, Tercel emits some. And, I do have fun with my EV, it's cleaner,
> it's unusual, it's right thing to have, it's a little status if
> you will. But simple fact is, Tercel gets me from A to B just as
> successfully. And I happen to have cars to mainly get me
> from A to B, not to brag too much about its guts. Even more so
> for my wife (EV, shmEV, just get me there and back home when
> I need it). Don't get me wrong, she'd be happy to drive an EV.
> But she's just as satisfied with Tercel, because both serve
> *her* at the moment equally well. Makes practical sense to her,
> and I have to agree.
>
> Victor
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > Hi Joe,
> > When times are good and everyone either has a good job or a high
> enough
> > fixed income I would agree with you, but when times are tough like
> a
> > recession or depression even Joe Average or an old lady or a girl
> with
> > inch long nails may not be able to afford to have their car
> maintained or
> > repaired by their neighborhood garage or dealer.
> > With bank and savings bond interest rates at a 50 year low, alot
> of
> > people on a fixed income can't afford to have their car maintained
> or
> > fixed by anyone but themselves. People are remaining unemployed
> for an
> > average of 18 months today since over 2.5 million jobs have left
> the
> > country, over the past 3 years, and those unemployed can not
> afford to
> > have their car maintained or fixed by anyone other than
> themselves. Cars
> > designed to be easily maintained or fixed would cost less for the
> > consumer to own even if maintained or repaired by someone other
> than the
> > owner because it would take less time. Emission regulations also
> require
> > spending up to $ 500 to bring a car up to standards. EV's don't
> have
> > that requirement :-).
> >
> > On Wed, 09 Jul 2003 13:41:55 -0700 Victor Tikhonov
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > writes:
> > > I'll reply on this one and it may make you think.
> > >
> > > I love EVs, I have one, plan to do another one, but you aren't
> going
> > > to like this (speaking for Joe Ave):
> > >
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Yes, but every time I need to change something related to the
> > > internal
> > > > combustion engine in my 1986 Firebird such as the starter
> motor,
> > > > radiator, heater core, water pump, fuel pump, alternator,
> exhaust
> > > system
> > > > (muffler & catalytic converter, pipes), radiator hoses, fan
> belts,
> > > oil &
> > > > filter (every 3000 miles for in and around town use), tune ups
> > > (plugs,
> > > > wires, distributor cap, rotor) or antifreeze I say you know, I
> > > don't have
> > > > these problems with my EV :-).
> > >
> > > 1. You know what? When was last time you had problems with any
> of
> > > this
> > > in USA? The shop gladly taking care of it for you in on every
> few
> > > blocks
> > > in average city, competing to do this work. An old lady or a
> girl
> > > with an inch long nails can easily take care of her car this
> way.
> > >
> > > On the other hand, who knows what inside of your lectric car?
> > > I'd want one but don't want to mess with it, just drive it and
> have
> > > someone take care of it. Ready to pay. Who can do it? No one in
> my
> > > block.
> > > Sorry.
> > >
> > > > And to make matters even worse, the
> > > > internal combustion engine designers don't leave any room or
> any
> > > extra
> > > > slack on wires or anything else to make it easy to work on by
> > > anyone.
> > > > And now you can't even work on some of the newer cars since
> they
> > > have
> > > > everything jam packed under the hood especially if you look
> under
> > > the
> > > > hood of the Toyota Prius or Honda Insight electrics where they
> > > have both
> > > > the internal combustion and electric propulsion systems.
> > >
> > > 2. I don't buy a car to work on it, I buy it to drive it to
> places.
> > > That's what a car is for for 95% of the plain people like me.
> > > Why Toyota (at its expense) should make it easy to work on for
> > > remaining 5% you belong to? Get real.
> > >
> > > > Lets not forget the pollution is centralized at the power
> plant
> > > instead
> > > > of spread out all over the country and that you are not going
> to
> > > die in a
> > > > FIREBALL from gasoline leaking onto a hot catalytic converter
> > > after a
> > > > collision.
> > >
> > > 3. I may agree, but FOR ME TODAY this does not outweigh 1. and
> 2.
> > >
> > > Until it will, EVs will remain a hobby for these 5%. Nothing
> wrong
> > > with it, just I, Joe Ave, happen top belong to other 95%.
> > >
> > > I met Victor, and he's saying that I got it all wrong. As I see
> it,
> > > he's nuts, have to have a shop, a skill, a time, a special
> knowledge
> > > beyond average, an inspiration, other sacrifices just to drive
> an EV
> > > in
> > > places I can drive to without all these problems. And, my 5
> liter
> > > Mustang excites *me* no less than his ACRX excites him.
> > >
> > > Take care,
> > > Joe.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > ________________________________________________________________
> > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
> > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
> > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
>
>
________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I already spammed the list with the URL for the project, but here it is again:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze3v25q/photoalbum/
Seth
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Voltage is not important during equalization. It is the current that does
the work. If you keep the current to about C/50 for about two hours, the
equalization should be completed on a reasonably fresh battery pack.
If it has been sitting unused it may take longer. Keep monitoring the
voltage every 15 minutes. When the voltage stops rising, the equalization is
complete.
I have seen optimas go over 17 volts each for short periods of time in the
process of bringing back a neglected specimen. See
http://www.manzanitamicro.com/25%20cycles%20on%20YT%2019.xls for the 1.4 MB
excel file showing the behavior of this specimen.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 8:59 AM
Subject: Max equalizing voltage for Sparrow charing ?
> What should be the max voltage during equalizing for a flooded lead acid
> battery (Optimas, Trojans, etc.) ?
> A cousin of mine has a Sparrow with a 156 volt pack .
> 191.1 volts is gasing voltage at 2.45 volts per cell or 7.35 volts for a
> six volter or 14.7 volts for a twelve volter.
> 215 volts is 8.27 volts per cell and is way too high unless the manual
> says otherwise. I would not let my batteries go above 7.75 volts for
> any reason and normally flooded lead acid batteries will not get much
> above 7.5 volts after they have gone through 20 or 30 cycles, but that
> has been my experience with Trojan lead acid deep cycle golf cart types (
> J250's, T145's, & EV137's).
> I thought equalizing charge was when batteries were brought just slightly
> above the gasing voltage for an hour or two.
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
> Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
> Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone have an idea why the folks the built the Tropica would have
put an AC filter here?
Very often, EV DC-DC converters are switcher type battery chargers
or battery substitution power supplies originally designed for AC input.
They often need to have an input-to-ground filter capacitor to keep from
putting too much "hash" on the power line.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim,
I love the mouse! The beach sounds great but this is too addicting. If I
were smart I would do just what you said and wait till fall but I have 7
Johnson batteries, do you think we can get our hands on any more? I already
checked with Bob, not enough left for a big fat car like mine. I don't know
about this IHRA/NHRA thing, Who in Nedra has the authority to decide such
things as acceptable tracks? I must say the folks at Quaker have bent over
backward to accommodate us. I could drive to Columbus National Trail ( 3
hrs.) to test but that seems ridiculous when Quaker is such a great track
and only ten minutes away. I can't tell you how excited I am that you
pulled the car out of the barn and blew the dust off. Do you still have
something for the CE4? I believe Ken said that you are the only ones to ever
have anything for him in the past. Low 9's?
Shawn
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 11:20 PM
Subject: Re: Rain out!
> In a message dated 7/9/03 1:34:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
>
> >
> > There will be no attempt today by Orange Juice at the 240 volt record as
> > rain has flooded Quaker City Dragway. The track owner has generously
provide us
> > with our own 220 volt box and breaker to recharge and we trimmed 184
lbs. of
> > blubber off the Juice and I really think we have a shot on Saturday if
the
> > weather holds.Too bad were not in hot sunny Vegas where records fall
instead
> > of rain.
> >
> > Shawn Lawless
> >
> >
> >
>
> That's ok Shawn, why don't you take a break for a few months, you're
getting
> way to close to our record and our car is still all apart.
> Our plan is to get it ready for the next Vegas race ( I think in Oct.) so
> take the summer off - go to the beach or something, maybe Disneyland and
go visit
> the mouse.
>
> Jim.......electricdragster.com
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Bill,
Any thoughts on bringing the bike to Vegas in the fall? It seems everyone
is waiting for good bats but the world must go on without Johnson and
Boulder. Charge up the SVR's and get out there. They're not that bad and
you'll have a chance to show two wheels are still faster than four. We
missed you in the spring.
Upstart Shawn Lawless
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 12:53 AM
Subject: Re: Ground Fault solved
>
> >
> >Does anyone have an idea why the folks the built the Tropica would have
> >put an AC filter here?
>
> Very often, EV DC-DC converters are switcher type battery
chargers
> or battery substitution power supplies originally designed for AC input.
> They often need to have an input-to-ground filter capacitor to keep from
> putting too much "hash" on the power line.
>
>
>
> _ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
> \'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> =(___)=
> U
> Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>That's kind of high.
Lots of hilly terrain here on the Seattle Eastside. 500ft climb to get back
home, plus roller coaster terrain everywhere else.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 3:46 PM
Subject: Re: Life with a Jet Electrica EV report
Dave Anderson wrote:
> I have 200 miles now on my Jet, with about a dozen cycles, so the
> batteries should be broken in.
They will probably keep getting better for the first few dozen cycles,
though at an ever-slower rate.
> I installed a sub-meter ($15 on ebay!) so that I could keep tabs
> on the KWH that went in. Overall, it works out to almost exactly
> 1/2 KWH/mi.
That's kind of high. It might be from an inefficient charger, excessive
charging, or high rolling resistance in the car (soft tires, wheel
alignment, dragging brakes, that sort of thing).
> Now that the batteries are broken in, I just might attempt to test
> the range. I'm hoping for 60 miles. My plan will be to do my usual
> 12-20 or so miles each day for a few days, but without charging
> overnight...
That's a reasonable plan, but be *very* careful not to overdo it. This
is where most new EVers murder their first battery.
> I don't have an eMeter or other fancy stuff, just a big 'ol analog
> 0-150v voltmeter. 1.75v/cell is what I understand to be a good
> number to use for a bottom limit. 60 cells * 1.75v = 105 volts,
> so I will head home when I am getting close to that.
After each day's drive, measure the individual battery voltages. Mark
down the lowest one. This is your weakest battery. You want to be
careful not to drive to pull *it* below 1.75v/cell under load.
105v is your voltage under load, and the load depends on how you are
driving. What you'll find is that as the batteries get more discharged,
you have to drive and accellerate slower to keep the voltage from going
below this. And, if the batteries are not all identical (and they never
are), when the total is 105v, some are well below 1.75v/cell.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in -- Leonard
Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Another el-cheapo charger is to use a 1500W micro-wave oven transformer and
re-wind the secondary for 1/2 pack voltage. Set the final taper to C/40 and
use a uP to shut off when dv/dt=0 (<.01V per cell per hour). I did this on
my cheese wedge aka commuta-car back in the 80's. The LC on the front end
would definetely help with PF as I now have a ferro-resonant transformer
which works better (inherent PFC). My switchmode charger was lotsa work and
not quite as reliable as a rock (single ferro-transformer)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 11:02 PM
Subject: Re: Public design charger
> Tom Hudson suggested a open source charger. It sounds like a project
> that a lot of people are interested in. But Victor Tikhonov hit on a key
> problem...
>
> > "If it fits the specs I want". Trouble is everyone wants different
> > specs.
>
> Whether consciously or subconsciously, everyone wants a custom designed
> charger just for them, but they don't want to pay anything for the
> design.
>
> > Also, I'm afraid, selling such a charger for the cost (if it ever
> > gets built) will not save much money.
>
> And this is the second big problem. People expect to save money building
> their own charger. But in reality, building one of anything costs more.
>
> Otmar wrote:
> > Here's what I'm thinking for a public project charger:
> >
> > 5 amps input (~1000 watts at 220V) per module.
> > Up to 2 modules per case. 3" square case about 10" long.
>
> Kind of an awkward form factor. Hard to find inductors, capacitors,
> circuit breakers etc. that fit.
>
> > Air cooled with a 3" fan on one end.
>
> Implies it is not waterproof or sealed. Tough to make it survive in an
> automotive environment.
>
> > Modules configured for different voltages by changing transformer
> > windings... Magnetics could be hand wound toroids
>
> Switchmode power supply tranformer design is quite tricky; not something
> for the average person to try to build. Toroids in particular are nasty
> to wind.
>
> > 1 module could be configured from 96V to 156V nominal.
> > Modules in series or parallel for more voltage or current.
>
> Accurate power sharing is another tricky area of design.
>
> > Topology could be a current fed push pull running at 68 khz.
> > Two switches, one inductor and one transformer give a PFC
> > isolated supply.
>
> This topology usually requires extra switches for reasonable transient
> response and to manage overvoltage spikes. There are special PWM
> controller chips for it.
>
> > The charger processor would know the input current, input voltage,
> > output voltage and at least one internal temperature. It could
> > estimate the output current (for protection) if no master controller
> > was watching it for the charge algorithm.
>
> Add a microcomputer provides considerable flexibility, but also
> considerable complexity. Now you have to deal with programming, software
> bugs, watchdog timers, fail-safe circuitry if the micro crashes, etc.
>
> > Thoughts anyone?
>
> For the above reasons, I think a high-power computer-controlled
> switchmode charger is just too ambitious for a public design to be built
> by amateurs. They are hard enough for professionals to build!
>
> If one wants a high quality reliable charger, the best solution is
> really to just bite the bullet and buy one of the commercial chargers.
> They only look expensive until you try to do it yourself!
>
> But, for various reasons, there will always be a need for simple
> low-cost chargers that are safe and won't murder batteries. Toward this
> end, I think we could provide some basic charger designs that will do
> the job. They would be easy to construct, adaptable to any desired
> voltage, and include the safety devices and charge control circuitry
> that amateurs usually leave off because they don't know they need them.
>
> So, here is how I would approach a public design charger:
>
> - 60 Hz transformer for isolation
> easy to find new, used, or surplus for any voltages
> easy (though tedious) to rewind
> - LC filter to improve power factor
> maximizes power you can get from a given AC receptacle
> can use fixed values to optimize it at full power, or
> switches or phase control to "tune" it
> - phase control for charge voltage and current control
> SCRs and triacs are cheap, reliable, easy to use
> - use a commercial battery charger control chip
> example: UC3906, UC3909
> - include a GFCI, circuit breaker, and Intermatic mechanical timer
> to insure safety and that it will shut off no matter what
>
> Anything else you want to add is a "luxury" (computers, digital
> readouts, etc.).
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in -- Leonard
> Cohen
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
FYI, my charger patent is 6,218,812 at us-pto.gov for those interested in
designing a switchmode charger (1500W with fan).
----- Original Message -----
From: "Aaron Birenboim" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 9:36 AM
Subject: Re: Public design charger
> Rich Rudman wrote:
> > Otmar wrote:
> >
> >>At 6:26 PM -0700 7/7/03, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> > Thoughts anyone?
>
> Hope I'm not rewinding too much...
> but for an On-Board charger, how about increasing
> (multiplying or mudulating) the input frequency, which
> should allow you to use a smaller (lighter) transformer?
>
> Off-board... go ahead and use a 50 lb. 60 Hz transformer.
>
> Is there a problem with the complexity or cost of circuitry
> to modulate/switch the 60 Hz wave?
>
>
> --
> Aaron Birenboim | This space available!
> Albuquerque, NM |
> aaron_at_birenboim.com |
> >http://aaron.boim.com |
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I should have said an isolated switching battery charger is a buck a watt.
It was assumed since all the UL approved commercial chargers I've worked on
have been isolated.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 12:58 PM
Subject: Re: A Buck a Watt
> Mark Hanson wrote:
> >
> > A Buck a Watt is typical for a switching battery charger.
> >
>
> Lets see that's $5000 for a PFC20 and $11,000 for a PFC50.
> Ummm I would KIll to get these prices.
>
> I don't think the EV list wants me to up my prices by that much.
>
>
>
> --
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
> www.manzanitamicro.com
> 1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Good thing we're NOT accountants!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 3:09 PM
Subject: Re: Life with a Jet Electrica EV report
> Plus if you want to go even further, it's absolutely ridiculous how much
> time, effort, and $$ I have put in to what essentially remains a 1981 Ford
> Escort. The other day I went fishing. It cost me about $800 to bring
home
> a string of trout worth about $10 at the market. It's not about the
> destination, it's about the journey and the experience.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dave Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 12:05 PM
> Subject: Re: Life with a Jet Electrica EV report
>
>
> Yes all true. Hobby is right. :) The batteries do indeed bring up the
> cost per mile way up. No doubt that overall it's more "expensive" than
> using a gasoline car. But what the heck, it's fun. I have a homebuilt
> experimental aircraft as well. I *never* total up the costs of running
> that, it would spoil it all. If I just measure these things by dollars,
> they make no sense at all.
>
> The insurance premium was $200/yr liability only. It's just a 1981
Escort,
> worth about $50 as a car, so no collision. Here in WA state, the
> registration was the same as for a ICE. Too bad I can't get a tax credit,
> or off-peak electricity.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "russco" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 11:56 AM
> Subject: Re: Life with a Jet Electrica EV report
>
>
> Your miles/KWH is about right, but have you considered your cost of
> batteries/mile?
>
> One thousand $$$$$$$$$ for batteries that last 10,000 miles is ten cents
> a mile, more than your electricity cost.
>
> There goes your 40 MPG down to less than half that.
>
> EV's are a hobby. That's fine. But don't expect an EV to cost less to
> operate than the gasoline car you already have. The EV is extra
> insurance, extra registration, and the cost/mile is greater than an
> equivalent current gasoline car.
>
> I'm sure many will disagree, but the figures speak for themselves.
> After 3 EV's of my own, extremely aggressive driving in my area have
> forced me to a safer conventional car that is fully depreciated and cost
> perhaps $50 per year for maintenance. Plus 30 mpg for gas at about 6
> cents/mile, that's my cost.
>
> Dave Anderson wrote:
> >
> > I have 200 miles now on my Jet, with about a dozen cycles, so the
> batteries
> > should be broken in. I installed a sub-meter ($15 on ebay!) so that I
> could
> > keep tabs on the KWH that went in. Overall, it works out to almost
> exactly
> > 1/2 KWH/mi. At 8c/KWH (Puget Sound Energy) that is 4c/mi. Assuming a
> > gallon of dead dinosaurs is $1.60 (about what it is here on the Seattle
> > Eastside) that works out to an equivelant of 40mpg.
> >
> > Overall life is good with an EV!
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually, Victor, there is one state with a formal licensing system for EV
mechanics and shops that work on EV's. In fact, it's illegal to even touch
anything connected to the high voltage wiring without a license.
Ironically, it's the next-to-last one you would guess - Oklahoma. (The last
one I would probably guess would be Texas)
EV licensees are required to carry personal liability insurance just because
of the potential of a sue-happy client that you mention.
Originally, I though this license requirement was a bad thing (you know,
government restriction of personal freedom, etc.), but your post makes me
see that it does have some roots in logic.
That said, they really need to make the exam harder. If I were to write a
study guide, it would say "Lurk on the EVDL for 12 months, read all the FAQ
at evparts.com, then take exam." I only missed three questions, and they
were the same one, worded three different ways.
-----Original Message-----
From: Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 6:41 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Life with a Jet Electrica EV report
No one legally licensed and will take care of your conversion EV
and be liable for result, even if they technically capable and
equipped to do it (golf carts etc.)
I thought it's clear.
I can fix an EV, no problem. If you ask me to fix yours, no way, sorry.
If your controller welds on (for unrelated to my repair reason
and your wife god forbid kills herself in it, you're going to sue me.
No thanks. Have a nice drive and take care of it yourself.
Victor
Brad Waddell wrote:
>
> At 01:41 PM 07/09/2003 -0700, you wrote:
> >On the other hand, who knows what inside of your lectric car?
> >I'd want one but don't want to mess with it, just drive it and have
> >someone take care of it. Ready to pay. Who can do it? No one in my
> >block.
> >Sorry.
>
> Joe,
>
> There are no golf cart dealers or dealers for electric carts for
> handicapped people (hospital supply) stores in your area? No marine
battery
> dealers? No custom auto and racing shops? Better check your phone book
> again. There are fewer solutions and very few one-stop shops, but you can
> find them. I don't work on electric cars, I just drive them.
>
> brad
> EV driver
>
> Brad Waddell ** FLEXquarters.com LLC ** voice-mail/fax: 602-532-7019
> Postal: 6965 El Camino Real Ste 105 #488 Carlsbad CA 92009 USA
> QODBC Driver for Quickbooks - Unleash your data at www.qodbc.com
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