EV Digest 3254
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: ADC Motor inspection and gear modifications
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) standard battery thread
by Derrick J Brashear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: standard battery thread
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: standard battery thread
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Distributed systems (was Re: Possible LiOH charging thoughts)
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Distributed systems (was Re: Possible LiOH charging thoughts)
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Distributed systems (was Re: Possible LiOH charging thoughts)
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: standard battery thread
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: standard battery thread
by Derrick J Brashear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: standard battery thread
by Derrick J Brashear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) OT: birds hit by wind power
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: standard battery thread
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: standard battery thread
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: standard battery thread
by Derrick J Brashear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: standard battery thread (cheap SAFT 6V/140Ah source)
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: standard battery thread
by Derrick J Brashear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) REVA
by Brad Waddell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) There is a plug-in hybrid on the horizon for California
by Brad Waddell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: standard battery thread
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Distributed systems (was Re: Possible LiOH charging thoughts)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Rich�
This is a gem of info for those who are building, or thinking about
building, a hi-perf/hotrod EV.
(or for anyone wanting to know whereabouts the limits are)
Thanks!
The voice of experience speaks! :-)
I am assuming this is pertaining to �bone stock� motors. Some
blueprinting, balancing, Kevlar wrapping, hardcore brush and comm.
matching, and various chemical/adhesive fixes could lead to marginally
higher usable RPMs?. Or No? Are those high revs are even useful? Or No?
What about the Kostov?
Hey� I�m just throwin� this out there to fish for info from ya :-)
Thanks for any more info you wanna provide.
Happy New Year!!!
Royster on the half cell
Rich Rudman wrote:�.
6.7s are very happy at 5500 to 8K RPM, If you can find the volts to spin
them that fast and still make enough torque to get any real
acceleration.
8 inchers are OK to about 6500, Some say 8K, NOT me.
9 inchers are Rated to 4500, I say 6000, Not much more.
Also clearly a HOT motor should not be run at the extreme edge of it's
speed range. 6000 would be too much on a hot day and 500 amps for hours.
If you use 5500 to 6000 as a design point and need to do any climbing or
accelerating at this rpm, You will need more than 144 volts to make it
happen.
My XP-1263 144 volt AvDC motor in stock form would barley pull more than
4500 with only 120 VDC on it. This gave me a nice speed limit of about
70 mph on the flats.
It would sag to 55 on a long hill, then the 400 amp curtis would over
heat.
Jumping to 156 and a 1200 amp Raptor, and it's still pulling pretty good
at 5500 and 80 mph. It could pull a LOT harder, but that's for the
racing side of me not the street EV side.
Also the cooling of the AvDC motors is good enough above 4000 rpm to not
worry about it. at 6000 it's not much better because of fan tip losses
and windage losses. In fact the windage losses are getting to be
dominante at 6K rpm.
I would say that running at 6000 for long intervels is NOT a good design
point. 3500 to 5000 is nice, for good pulling torque 2500 to 4000 or
less. This depends on voltage of course. And in a big way.
Induction generators... how do you control it??? > > Alain St-Yves
> WEB site www.rocler.qc.ca/levehiculevert
> for the generator www.rocler.qc.ca/levehiculevert/generateur.htm
> > [note - I used http://babelfish.altavista.com/ to translate the pages
to
> English - jbc]
> > _________
> Jim Coate
> 1992 Chevy S10
> 1970's Elec-Trak
> http://www.eeevee.com
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
� 1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
Roy LeMeur Olympia, WA
Updated!
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
_________________________________________________________________
Make your home warm and cozy this winter with tips from MSN House & Home.
http://special.msn.com/home/warmhome.armx
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've read things for a while and gone through the archives, and of course
there is no one answer. I'm looking for advise, but first, I'll explain my
situation.
I picked up a converted 1984 Dodge Daytona last month. It's a bit ragged,
but I figure it might merit throwing money at to get it cleaned up. But,
in the meantime, I picked up a driveable car, already converted, with
components that can be salvaged for more than I paid for the car
(including shipping from California to Pennsylvania) if I choose to
instead work on something more modern.
Anyhow, currently the vehicle is set up as a 96v system with a K&W
BC-20 charger, a Curtis 1221C controller, and an Advanced DC 4001 motor.
It has 16 T-105s mounted in battery racks (6 under the hood and 10 in the
hatchback), and my understanding from the previous owner is the range will
be on the low side for my complete commute. It's just about 18 miles each
way, and while as it happens there's a building with an EV charging
station where I work, I don't expect to be able to use it on a daily
basis.
So, my goal is to get enough extra range to be able to make the trip
without needing to charge. My first planned upgrade is therefore
batteries. My hope is to also upgrade the charger, and then the
controller, but I'd like to do these independently and keep the car useful
between steps. I see my choices as:
-Insulate the battery racks and replace the T-105s with T-125s. Net gain:
90lbs.
-Switch to Exide Orbitals. I assume I'd need 3 parallel strings (not sure
if that math is right), added weight over the T-105s, 8 pounds. I'm also
unsure of the charging implications.
-Switch to Evercels. The problem here would be one of charging, because to
get what I needed I'd need 2 strings of MB80s (again, not 100% on that
math), with would be messy, so presumably I'd need to replace my charger
*and* my controller.
I don't think I can front the money for any lithium formulation now.
Assuming I'm not missing anything, the answer which doesn't break my
budget and lets me keep using the car is the T-125s, and otherwise I'm
screwed. Am I missing anything?
Thanks
-D
--
http://ev.dementia.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Derrick
Here are a couple of lead-acid related battery links, hope this helps!
Deep Cycle Battery FAQ
Learn how to care for your batteries here:
http://www.uuhome.de/william.darden/dcfaq.htm
Bruce Parmenter's Great EV Battery Info Page:
http://geocities.com/brucedp/evbatt.html
Please! Toss your questions out to the list.
People that know will answer. really...
Derrick J Brashear wrote:
I've read things for a while and gone through the archives, and of course
there is no one answer. I'm looking for advise, but first, I'll explain my
situation.
I picked up a converted 1984 Dodge Daytona last month. It's a bit ragged,
but I figure it might merit throwing money at to get it cleaned up. But,
in the meantime, I picked up a driveable car, already converted, with
components that can be salvaged for more than I paid for the car
(including shipping from California to Pennsylvania) if I choose to
instead work on something more modern.
Anyhow, currently the vehicle is set up as a 96v system with a K&W
BC-20 charger, a Curtis 1221C controller, and an Advanced DC 4001 motor.
It has 16 T-105s mounted in battery racks (6 under the hood and 10 in the
hatchback), and my understanding from the previous owner is the range will
be on the low side for my complete commute. It's just about 18 miles each
way, and while as it happens there's a building with an EV charging
station where I work, I don't expect to be able to use it on a daily
basis.
So, my goal is to get enough extra range to be able to make the trip
without needing to charge. My first planned upgrade is therefore
batteries. My hope is to also upgrade the charger, and then the
controller, but I'd like to do these independently and keep the car useful
between steps. I see my choices as:
-Insulate the battery racks and replace the T-105s with T-125s. Net gain:
90lbs.
-Switch to Exide Orbitals. I assume I'd need 3 parallel strings (not sure
if that math is right), added weight over the T-105s, 8 pounds. I'm also
unsure of the charging implications.
-Switch to Evercels. The problem here would be one of charging, because to
get what I needed I'd need 2 strings of MB80s (again, not 100% on that
math), with would be messy, so presumably I'd need to replace my charger
*and* my controller.
I don't think I can front the money for any lithium formulation now.
Assuming I'm not missing anything, the answer which doesn't break my
budget and lets me keep using the car is the T-125s, and otherwise I'm
screwed. Am I missing anything?
Thanks
-D
Roy LeMeur Olympia, WA
Updated!
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
_________________________________________________________________
Tired of slow downloads? Compare online deals from your local high-speed
providers now. https://broadband.msn.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Have you considered adding a couple more batteries?
The controller should be able to handle 120V and the K&W can charge a
120V pack if you add the boost transformer. Whether or not you can
squeeze the extra batteries in is the real question.
Switching to Orbitals means you'd need a new charger AND battery
management system. Not exactly expensive, but not cheap.
On Thu, 2004-01-01 at 01:32, Derrick J Brashear wrote:
> I've read things for a while and gone through the archives, and of course
> there is no one answer. I'm looking for advise, but first, I'll explain my
> situation.
>
> I picked up a converted 1984 Dodge Daytona last month. It's a bit ragged,
> but I figure it might merit throwing money at to get it cleaned up. But,
> in the meantime, I picked up a driveable car, already converted, with
> components that can be salvaged for more than I paid for the car
> (including shipping from California to Pennsylvania) if I choose to
> instead work on something more modern.
>
> Anyhow, currently the vehicle is set up as a 96v system with a K&W
> BC-20 charger, a Curtis 1221C controller, and an Advanced DC 4001 motor.
>
> It has 16 T-105s mounted in battery racks (6 under the hood and 10 in the
> hatchback), and my understanding from the previous owner is the range will
> be on the low side for my complete commute. It's just about 18 miles each
> way, and while as it happens there's a building with an EV charging
> station where I work, I don't expect to be able to use it on a daily
> basis.
>
> So, my goal is to get enough extra range to be able to make the trip
> without needing to charge. My first planned upgrade is therefore
> batteries. My hope is to also upgrade the charger, and then the
> controller, but I'd like to do these independently and keep the car useful
> between steps. I see my choices as:
>
> -Insulate the battery racks and replace the T-105s with T-125s. Net gain:
> 90lbs.
>
> -Switch to Exide Orbitals. I assume I'd need 3 parallel strings (not sure
> if that math is right), added weight over the T-105s, 8 pounds. I'm also
> unsure of the charging implications.
>
> -Switch to Evercels. The problem here would be one of charging, because to
> get what I needed I'd need 2 strings of MB80s (again, not 100% on that
> math), with would be messy, so presumably I'd need to replace my charger
> *and* my controller.
>
> I don't think I can front the money for any lithium formulation now.
>
> Assuming I'm not missing anything, the answer which doesn't break my
> budget and lets me keep using the car is the T-125s, and otherwise I'm
> screwed. Am I missing anything?
>
> Thanks
> -D
>
> --
> http://ev.dementia.org
--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a
capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the
safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tuesday, December 30, 2003, at 05:30 AM, David Brandt wrote:
Doug Weathers wrote:
"Then there's my wacko idea of a distributed motor controller. Each
battery gets a switching module that switches it onto the motor power
bus when needed..."
Not so wacko. Looks like this guy did it:
www.redrok.com/ev.htm
That's so cool! Thanks for the link.
There's some hope after all.
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.homedns.org:8100/weblog/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tuesday, December 30, 2003, at 12:48 PM, Lee Hart wrote:
Doug Weathers wrote:
Then there's my wacko idea of a distributed motor controller. Each
battery gets a switching module that switches it onto the motor power
bus when needed.
David Brandt wrote:
Not so wacko. Looks like this guy did it: www.redrok.com/ev.htm
I'd love to see a comparison with one like this using 12V blocks,
and a more traditional approach.
Yes, it *is* an interesting approach.
Thanks for chiming in, Lee. I greatly appreciate hearing what you have
to say.
All things being equal, it will always be smaller, lighter, cheaper,
easier, more efficiency, more reliable etc. to build a single large
controller than many small ones.
If you have a point design for your EV (for example, you're a large
automaker), then you are undoubtedly correct. If you're a hobbyist or
tinkerer or researcher (for example, all of us on the list :), or
selling parts to us, then you might see some advantages to a modular
approach.
However, things are rarely equal. The many small controllers might be
mass-produced, while the single large one is hand-made. The small
controllers might be designed for some mass-market that allows millions
to be spent on research and development and custom chips, while the
single large one has to use off-the-shelf parts.
Here are some more possible situations in which a modular approach
might work better.
The parts for the big controller might be more expensive than all the
parts for the smaller ones. (Perhaps the cost of the parts scales with
the square of the capacity rather than linearly.)
The EV you're designing needs a controller with a capacity that falls
between existing monolithic models, requiring you to purchase a
larger-than-needed controller.
Your EV must be designed with no single points of failure in the
electronics or battery pack. (It's an emergency vehicle, or it produces
revenue.)
You want to be able to drive home after a failure instead of being
towed.
You want to be able to adjust the number of batteries in your EV(s)
i.e. your design is changing, or you have an add-on battery pack for
extra range or power.
You want to use multiple battery chemistries in the same EV.
You want to reduce the complexity of your EV by eliminating separate
chargers, battery regulation systems, instrumentation, DC-to-DC
converter, etc.
You build a number of different EVs and you want to reduce the number
of parts you have to source and stock.
You don't have the budget to start big - you must start small and build
your EV over time.
You're doing research and your EV design isn't yet fixed. You can't
afford to keep buying different controllers for each new EV
configuration.
The reliability
problems of many small controller could be offset by making the system
so it keeps working even when one or more of them fail.
That's how I design my computer networks - no single point of failure
for critical systems. This also allows me to schedule maintenance on
the redundant components without impacting operation. On an EV that's
a work in progress, this would allow me to have a driveable EV more of
the time.
One last possibility. It's a few years in the future and the battery
manufacturers are competing with each other to produce the best EV
traction batteries. An EV industry coalition (perhaps the EV list,
perhaps the battery manufacturers) develops and publishes a standard
spec for a modular controller. Now the battery makers can build
modular controllers that are designed to work specifically with their
batteries, but can interoperate in an EV that also contains modules
made for other brands of batteries. In other words, you could have a
car with batteries from Hawker, Optima, Exide, and Trojan, each with a
same-brand controller module. The battery makers would now be
competing with each other to make their modules attractive enough to
get you to buy their batteries to go with them.
Of course, there's nothing to stop a battery manufacturer from jumping
the gun and designing their own standard. Then they might just own the
whole market. Good for them, not so good for us.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in -- Leonard
Cohen
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.homedns.org:8100/weblog/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> "Then there's my wacko idea of a distributed motor controller. Each
> battery gets a switching module that switches it onto the motor power
> bus when needed..."
>
> Not so wacko. Looks like this guy did it:
>
> www.redrok.com/ev.htm
>
>
Now that is a neat idea!
Hey, isn't this the same guy that was doing high efficiency BLDC motors
a few years back? That Redrok name is familiar for some reason, maybe
it's just the solar trackers.
> --
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a
> capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the
> safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 96V, SAFT 100Ah NiCads don't have the power you need. The 180Ah do,
though. They are very expensive new. Sometimes they are available new.
At least one European list member has had some used 140Ah ones up for
sale recently. If they aren't abused, they will have great cyclic life.
Lots better than lead and they will have better range. And they deal
with the cold much better than lead.
Downside:
new cost
lower power (like flooded lead)
require watering, like flooded lead batteries
Upside:
long life
better range per pound of battery (1.5-3X)
can be discharged flat with little/no harm
they like the cold
relatively intolerant of poor charging (they boil just fine)
There are other NiCad batteries that are made for power (starting
batteries) and they have less energy per pound (but more than lead) and
can belt out current well. They are usually supplied at the 1.2V cell
package, not 6V or 12V. I think Dennis Berube had some for sale
recently prepackaged for very cheap. Others can be found, like the ones
I use in my boat in the EV album.
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/482.html for a shameless plug :) and a
picture of a "starter" NiCad arrangement in a wood box.
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/008.html is Rod hower's van with some
nice Saft 180Ah modules. A good thing to find if the price is right.
HTH
Seth
On Jan 1, 2004, at 3:32 AM, Derrick J Brashear wrote:
I've read things for a while and gone through the archives, and of
course
there is no one answer. I'm looking for advise, but first, I'll
explain my
situation.
I picked up a converted 1984 Dodge Daytona last month. It's a bit
ragged,
but I figure it might merit throwing money at to get it cleaned up.
But,
in the meantime, I picked up a driveable car, already converted, with
components that can be salvaged for more than I paid for the car
(including shipping from California to Pennsylvania) if I choose to
instead work on something more modern.
Anyhow, currently the vehicle is set up as a 96v system with a K&W
BC-20 charger, a Curtis 1221C controller, and an Advanced DC 4001
motor.
It has 16 T-105s mounted in battery racks (6 under the hood and 10 in
the
hatchback), and my understanding from the previous owner is the range
will
be on the low side for my complete commute. It's just about 18 miles
each
way, and while as it happens there's a building with an EV charging
station where I work, I don't expect to be able to use it on a daily
basis.
So, my goal is to get enough extra range to be able to make the trip
without needing to charge. My first planned upgrade is therefore
batteries. My hope is to also upgrade the charger, and then the
controller, but I'd like to do these independently and keep the car
useful
between steps. I see my choices as:
-Insulate the battery racks and replace the T-105s with T-125s. Net
gain:
90lbs.
-Switch to Exide Orbitals. I assume I'd need 3 parallel strings (not
sure
if that math is right), added weight over the T-105s, 8 pounds. I'm
also
unsure of the charging implications.
-Switch to Evercels. The problem here would be one of charging,
because to
get what I needed I'd need 2 strings of MB80s (again, not 100% on that
math), with would be messy, so presumably I'd need to replace my
charger
*and* my controller.
I don't think I can front the money for any lithium formulation now.
Assuming I'm not missing anything, the answer which doesn't break my
budget and lets me keep using the car is the T-125s, and otherwise I'm
screwed. Am I missing anything?
Thanks
-D
--
http://ev.dementia.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 1 Jan 2004, Seth Allen wrote:
> At 96V, SAFT 100Ah NiCads don't have the power you need. The 180Ah do,
> though. They are very expensive new. Sometimes they are available new.
> At least one European list member has had some used 140Ah ones up for
> sale recently. If they aren't abused, they will have great cyclic life.
> Lots better than lead and they will have better range. And they deal
> with the cold much better than lead.
The reason I haven't considered the SAFTs:
1) something I read indicated basically that if you bought new they wanted
documentation of how you planned to use them. Documentation has never been
my strong suit.
2) even ignoring that, still inconvenient to obtain. I also hate
navigating chains of people.
I'll check around for used, though (but not hold my breath).
...
> they like the cold
Which may turn out to be important
> relatively intolerant of poor charging (they boil just fine)
Shouldn't that be "tolerant"?
> There are other NiCad batteries that are made for power (starting
> batteries) and they have less energy per pound (but more than lead) and
> can belt out current well. They are usually supplied at the 1.2V cell
> package, not 6V or 12V. I think Dennis Berube had some for sale
> recently prepackaged for very cheap. Others can be found, like the ones
> I use in my boat in the EV album.
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/482.html for a shameless plug :) and a
> picture of a "starter" NiCad arrangement in a wood box.
I think I'd have to run 4 parallel strings of BB600s, 80 deep. Are NiCads
tolerant of cooking in parallel to bring them all up to full charge?
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/008.html is Rod hower's van with some
> nice Saft 180Ah modules. A good thing to find if the price is right.
Yeah, looks like it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Combined reply:
On Thu, 1 Jan 2004, Roy LeMeur wrote:
> Please! Toss your questions out to the list.
>
> People that know will answer. really...
Well, the problem is the question boils down to "what batteries should I
buy" and it's been asked many times before: it varies from application
to application. Still, it's the reason for the subject of this message;-)
On Thu, 1 Jan 2004, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> Have you considered adding a couple more batteries?
>
> The controller should be able to handle 120V and the K&W can charge a
> 120V pack if you add the boost transformer. Whether or not you can
> squeeze the extra batteries in is the real question.
The front rack *might* have room for 2 but I'd need to figure out where to
move the accessory battery which is currently using some of that space,
and if 2 would fit it would be tight. Anything more than 2 is right out
unless I can go under the back seat, but then I need to think about sealed
batteries, and things get messier.
> Switching to Orbitals means you'd need a new charger AND battery
> management system. Not exactly expensive, but not cheap.
"Cost no object" isn't true but if it would extend range I'd consider it
anyway. The thing here is I don't think the extra 8 pounds for 3 strings
of 96v worth of Orbitals buys that much more range.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Most new wind making machines rotate slowly enough now that only Darwin
award winning birds will be effected by them. Most birds can easily avoid
them. Lawrence Rhodes....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Derrick J Brashear wrote:
> I picked up a converted 1984 Dodge Daytona last month... the vehicle
> is set up as a 96v system with a K&W BC-20 charger, a Curtis 1221C
> controller, and an Advanced DC 4001 motor. It has 16 T-105s mounted
> in battery racks... my understanding is the range will be on the low
> side for my complete commute... 18 miles each way.
Welcome to the club! Sounds like you did indeed get a very usable set of
parts.
I think I'd first get it working as-is, so you can take some
measurements. See how much it weighs, so you'll know where you stand
relative to the car's GVWR and how much more weight (if any) can be
added for batteries.
Then, see how much power it takes to cruise at different speeds. You
didn't mention instrumentation; you should add at least a voltmeter and
ammeter (an E-meter would be a nice Christmas present). At 96 volts, it
should take around 150 amps to cruise at 60 mph if everything is
perfect. If it's higher, look for dragging brakes, alignment, poor
tires, hot wiring or connections, etc. Fix them first for 'free' range
increases.
I'd use your present batteries for a while, just to see what kind of
shape they are in and to get used to caring for them. Most beginners
'murder' their first set by trying to drive too far or too fast,
charging improperly, failing to add water or check for loose terminals,
etc. Might as well use your present pack as expendable 'training
wheels'.
> -Insulate the battery racks and replace the T-105s with T-125s.
Where do you live? Cold (lead-acid) batteries perform much worse. Adding
insulation and/or heaters to keep them warm will dramatically improve
performance and range in cold climates.
The T-125 (or equivalent) would be a simple, straightforward way to
increase your range. You could also see about crowding in another
battery or two, as another suggested. Just make sure your tires, brakes,
suspension etc. can handle the weight.
> -Switch to Exide Orbitals.
Range is mainly a function of battery weight; not type of battery. As
long as you stay with lead-acid, changing from floodeds (T-105) to
sealed (Orbitals) won't help at all. And, the Orbitals will cost a *lot*
more, have shorter life, and require you to add some kind of battery
monitoring and regulating system.
The main reason to go with sealed batteries like the Orbitals is for
higher speed and accellearation; not range.
> -Switch to Evercels.
They'll give you more range per pound than lead-acids, though price is
of course higher. Keep in mind that the Evercels are a very new,
unproven technology. They look promising, but we don't yet know the best
ways to manage them, and what kind of real-world life they will have.
Your present charger and controller could probably be retained, but you
would have to modify or add extra control circuitry and monitoring to be
sure you don't kill the Evercels. Frankly, I don't think the Evercels
are a good choice for a beginner. But they are just the thing for a
dedicated experimenter who wants to explore the leading (bleeding) edge
of battery technology.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yep, tolerant of poor charging, good catch.
The BB 600s probably aren't your answer unless you want to go high
voltage. I haven't personally charged NiCads in parallel. Done it with
cylidrical NiMH, with no ill effects in the short-medium term with
adequate data collecting onboard.
Rod Hower's friend has a low voltage Fiero with 180Ah saft modules he
got. He did manage to harm them by boiling them dry, I think. And he
got them for a deal, so if you look, stuff like that is out there.
Dealing with the cold is a big issue for range if you don't live in
California or the South and have lead. It means that thermal management
is a requirement. IMO. So your lead just got a little more expensive.
Seth
On Jan 1, 2004, at 12:57 PM, Derrick J Brashear wrote:
On Thu, 1 Jan 2004, Seth Allen wrote:
At 96V, SAFT 100Ah NiCads don't have the power you need. The 180Ah do,
though. They are very expensive new. Sometimes they are available new.
At least one European list member has had some used 140Ah ones up for
sale recently. If they aren't abused, they will have great cyclic
life.
Lots better than lead and they will have better range. And they deal
with the cold much better than lead.
The reason I haven't considered the SAFTs:
1) something I read indicated basically that if you bought new they
wanted
documentation of how you planned to use them. Documentation has never
been
my strong suit.
2) even ignoring that, still inconvenient to obtain. I also hate
navigating chains of people.
I'll check around for used, though (but not hold my breath).
...
they like the cold
Which may turn out to be important
relatively intolerant of poor charging (they boil just fine)
Shouldn't that be "tolerant"?
There are other NiCad batteries that are made for power (starting
batteries) and they have less energy per pound (but more than lead)
and
can belt out current well. They are usually supplied at the 1.2V cell
package, not 6V or 12V. I think Dennis Berube had some for sale
recently prepackaged for very cheap. Others can be found, like the
ones
I use in my boat in the EV album.
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/482.html for a shameless plug :) and a
picture of a "starter" NiCad arrangement in a wood box.
I think I'd have to run 4 parallel strings of BB600s, 80 deep. Are
NiCads
tolerant of cooking in parallel to bring them all up to full charge?
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/008.html is Rod hower's van with some
nice Saft 180Ah modules. A good thing to find if the price is right.
Yeah, looks like it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 1 Jan 2004, Lee Hart wrote:
> Welcome to the club! Sounds like you did indeed get a very usable set of
> parts.
I pretty much counted on needing to replace the batteries one way or
another, but it looks like they were underwatered before, so I might be
able to get a few more months out of them while I figure out what my
longer-term plans are.
> I think I'd first get it working as-is, so you can take some
> measurements. See how much it weighs, so you'll know where you stand
> relative to the car's GVWR and how much more weight (if any) can be
> added for batteries.
The original owner (who it was converted for) had it weighed at a truck
stop, and I have said receipt somewhere. I think it was 3400, maybe
slightly more. I don't know the GVWR yet.
> Then, see how much power it takes to cruise at different speeds. You
> didn't mention instrumentation; you should add at least a voltmeter and
> ammeter (an E-meter would be a nice Christmas present). At 96 volts, it
It already has a voltmeter, an ammeter, and an accessory voltmeter.
Something better would be useful but I figure this will work for now.
> Where do you live? Cold (lead-acid) batteries perform much worse. Adding
> insulation and/or heaters to keep them warm will dramatically improve
> performance and range in cold climates.
Pittsburgh, PA. I've at least cleaned my garage enough that I have
enclosed charging space available, but it's not heated.
> Your present charger and controller could probably be retained, but you
> would have to modify or add extra control circuitry and monitoring to be
> sure you don't kill the Evercels. Frankly, I don't think the Evercels
> are a good choice for a beginner. But they are just the thing for a
> dedicated experimenter who wants to explore the leading (bleeding) edge
> of battery technology.
The advantages of nickel with respect to temperature and weight are
enticing, but you have a point. I'm still exploring my options, shaking
trees to see what falls out of them.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm the european guy,
still five genuine RENAULT EV 108V/140ah pack left, ready to plug in your
central watering and electrical system, warranted like new (car have about
8000km on odometer), tested and at half new cost (280$/ kwh), pictures
here:
http://www.alel.biz/Alel/Express.html
but note than shipment to USA is expensive, a company ask me about 1000euros
for 1m3 and 300kg pack, if someone have an idea to find cheaper let me know
please.
questions off list.
happy new year,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth Allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 5:49 PM
Subject: Re: standard battery thread
> At 96V, SAFT 100Ah NiCads don't have the power you need. The 180Ah do,
> though. They are very expensive new. Sometimes they are available new.
> At least one European list member has had some used 140Ah ones up for
> sale recently. If they aren't abused, they will have great cyclic life.
> Lots better than lead and they will have better range. And they deal
> with the cold much better than lead.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 1 Jan 2004, Seth Allen wrote:
> The BB 600s probably aren't your answer unless you want to go high
> voltage. I haven't personally charged NiCads in parallel. Done it with
> cylidrical NiMH, with no ill effects in the short-medium term with
> adequate data collecting onboard.
I think for the moment high voltage is out.
> Rod Hower's friend has a low voltage Fiero with 180Ah saft modules he
> got. He did manage to harm them by boiling them dry, I think. And he
> got them for a deal, so if you look, stuff like that is out there.
Even something that can be abused has its limits.
> Dealing with the cold is a big issue for range if you don't live in
> California or the South and have lead. It means that thermal management
> is a requirement. IMO. So your lead just got a little more expensive.
It also means there's not much local expertise to draw on (a neighboring
university has an EV club that seems to have gone inactive after last
spring, and I saw in the archives one other person around Pittsburgh who'd
been talking about working on something) nor a pool of local used parts to
draw on. I may have luck if I can figure out who where I work might have
useful information for me to draw on, but the smart thing to do is to get
the legal stuff dealt with first so I can actually take the car to work.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
correction - REVA is not an NEV in the UK market, only USA.
brad
At 05:23 PM 12/31/2003 -0800, you wrote:
EVLN(500 REVA nEVs for Going Green)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.newkerala.com/news-daily/news/features.php?action=fullnews&id=2251
Business News India > Reva to export 500 electric cars to Britain
Bangalore, Dec 9 : The makers of India's first compact electric
car Reva have entered into a marketing tie-up with Going Green
Plc to export 500 cars to Britain over the next nine months.
Reva Electric Car will sell the vehicle in Britain under the
brand name G-WIZ.
Promoted by Bangalore-based Maini Industrial Group, the
battery-run vehicle has recently been granted the European
Economic Community certificate for homologation that qualifies
the firm to enter the European market in a big way.
"The certification validates Reva's technical expertise in the
auto industry. It makes the compact electric car an ideal
solution for mobility in European cities and towns," Chetan
Maini, the firm's managing director, said here Tuesday.
Priced about 40 percent higher than its Indian luxury model in
the premium segment, G-WIZ will be the most economical electric
vehicle in Britain and the European markets.
"We began test-marketing Reva in Britain early this year and
modified its features based on customer feedback to suit their
requirements, including climate control seats and remote control
heating.
"G-WIZ will be the only vehicle in Europe with these features in
the non-fuel segment," Maini claimed.
As its sole distributor in Europe, Going Green will promote Reva
in Britain as an ideal environmental vehicle alternative to
gasoline models and undertake its after-sales service support.
On Indian roads, the car gives a mileage of just 40 paise a km or
nine units of power for 80 km against Rs.2.60 a km by
petrol-driven small cars.
"With the British government granting road tax exemption, 100
percent depreciation and waiver of congestion charges and parking
fee for G-WIZ, we are upbeat on its success with the potential
for more export orders," Maini group chairman Sudarshan Maini
told IANS.
Of the 2.5 million cars sold in Britain in the last 10 months,
875,000 were in the super mini category. With 38 percent having
single occupancy and 34 percent double occupancy, the potential
for G-WIZ is about 100,000 in the next couple of years.
In the run-up to its foray into the European Union market, the
company has started test marketing Reva in Malta, Norway, Germany
and Switzerland.
"As the second largest electric car producer the world (behind)
Ford in the US, Reva has the first-move advantage in the emerging
trend for zero-pollution cars," Maini said at a preview of Reva
Classe, the new export model with additional comfort and safety
features.
Cashing in on strict emission norms in European countries, where
legislature amendments and regulations are being made to check
pollution by gasoline and diesel-powered vehicles, the company is
set to introduce enhanced and customised versions to meet the
demands of emerging export markets.
To meet the market demand, the Rs.600-million group is stepping
up production at its Bommasandra facility on the outskirts of
Bangalore to roll out about 250-300 cars a month from the
yearend.
Reva hit the Indian roads in mid-2001. The company has sold about
550 units in India and 50 overseas. About 50 percent of the cars
were sold in Karnataka.
� 2003 newkerala.com All rights reserved
-
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003
http://search.yahoo.com/top2003
Brad Waddell ** FLEXquarters.com LLC ** voice-mail/fax: 602-532-7019
Postal: 6965 El Camino Real Ste 105 #488 Carlsbad CA 92009 USA
Plug-in to your QuickBooks data at www.qodbc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Check out this very detailed article about 2 plug-in hybrid test vehicles
being built for the local California power company to test by DaimlerChrysler.
http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/WEBONLY/publicfeature/jan04/0104epow1.html
Brad Waddell ** FLEXquarters.com LLC ** voice-mail/fax: 602-532-7019
Postal: 6965 El Camino Real Ste 105 #488 Carlsbad CA 92009 USA
Plug-in to your QuickBooks data at www.qodbc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Derrick,
I would look around the Pittsburg area for other
people interested in EV's. Robicon is located there
and produces high HP industrial drives. Usually
people in this line of business are interested in
EV's.
Some of our reps from Arrow told me about guys at
Reliance in my neck of the woods that have converted
EV's.
I would keep my eyes open for 140Ahr or high SAFT
NiCds. Jim (the guy that bought my Fiero) got a pack
of 30 STM-180 for $2,000 buck directly from SAFT (it
was a used pack out of a Dodge TEVan).
I would also keep my eyes open for TEVans at auction.
Rod
www.qsl.net/w8rnh
--- Derrick J Brashear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Thu, 1 Jan 2004, Seth Allen wrote:
>
> > The BB 600s probably aren't your answer unless you
> want to go high
> > voltage. I haven't personally charged NiCads in
> parallel. Done it with
> > cylidrical NiMH, with no ill effects in the
> short-medium term with
> > adequate data collecting onboard.
>
> I think for the moment high voltage is out.
>
> > Rod Hower's friend has a low voltage Fiero with
> 180Ah saft modules he
> > got. He did manage to harm them by boiling them
> dry, I think. And he
> > got them for a deal, so if you look, stuff like
> that is out there.
>
> Even something that can be abused has its limits.
>
> > Dealing with the cold is a big issue for range if
> you don't live in
> > California or the South and have lead. It means
> that thermal management
> > is a requirement. IMO. So your lead just got a
> little more expensive.
>
> It also means there's not much local expertise to
> draw on (a neighboring
> university has an EV club that seems to have gone
> inactive after last
> spring, and I saw in the archives one other person
> around Pittsburgh who'd
> been talking about working on something) nor a pool
> of local used parts to
> draw on. I may have luck if I can figure out who
> where I work might have
> useful information for me to draw on, but the smart
> thing to do is to get
> the legal stuff dealt with first so I can actually
> take the car to work.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Doug Weathers wrote:
> modular battery charging... I really like the idea - it's a shame I
> can't just buy a modular charger/battery management/instrumentation
> system.
Well, we're working on such a system for the Tango right now. It's an
open design, in case anyone wants to duplicate it. But it will cost you
upwards of $150 per module.
Each battery gets a 12v 15amp charger, and microcomputer to monitor and
control it. They are networked together to a central microcomputer
running Linux. These modular chargers are about 6.5" x 3" x 1" and sit
right on each 12v battery. They are powered by a PFC front end from
90-265vac (while charging), or by the DC pack voltage as a whole (while
driving or for balancing).
> Then there's my wacko idea of a distributed motor controller. Each
> battery gets a switching module that switches it onto the motor power
> bus when needed.
It certainly works. In fact, it's been used in EVs for 100 years or so
(with mechanical switching).
One rather clever system had a big rotary switch. All the batteries were
wired in series, with contacts for both ends and every tap in between.
Two sliders could be moved independently to connect each side of the
motor to any tap. From a stop, you left the negative lead at the most
negative end of the pack, and moved the positive lead up toward the top.
To slow back down, you moved the negative lead up until it matched the
positive lead contact. To get reverse, you set the positive slider to a
lower voltage than the positive slider. The operator manipulated the two
sliders to equalize the charge in any battery. Nowdays, this could be
done automatically.
> I don't have the hardware or software skills to design or build any of
> this stuff, or check it for feasibility. There are huge issues of
> safety, reliability (hardware and software), packaging, and of course
> cost to consider.
Yes, indeed!
The main problem is that there are obviously a lot more parts than with
a conventional controller. So, you either have to design it with
exceptionally cheap parts, or put up with a higher end cost. And, any
time you do something out of the ordinary, you have to be willing to
learn as you go, and stick to it as you discover problems and figure out
ways to fix them.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
