EV Digest 3255
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: There is a plug-in hybrid on the horizon for California
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Chrysler's hybrid
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Mike's electric adventure
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: There is a plug-in hybrid on the horizon for California
by Danny Ames <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Wiring harness for EV - what's needed? (longish)
by "acid_lead" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Wiring harness for EV - what's needed? (longish)
by Alex Karahalios <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Wiring harness for EV - what's needed? (longish)
by "acid_lead" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: High Voltage or High Current
by "vinnybrain" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: standard battery thread
by Derrick J Brashear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Blessing in disguise. ( Charging Complexities, Simplified! )
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Heat Tape
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) Re: EV Snow Grin
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Possible LiOH charging thoughts
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Wabbit Weport (NiCads)
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Possible LiOH charging thoughts
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Wabbit Weport (NiCads)
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) I've joined the AC crowd.
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Blessing in disguise. ( Charging Complexities, Simplified! )
by "Paul Compton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: There is a plug-in hybrid on the horizon for California
by Brad Waddell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: I've joined the AC crowd.
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Wabbit Weport (NiCads)
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Blessing in disguise. ( Charging Complexities, Simplified! )
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Mike's electric adventure / standard battery thread
by Michael Hoskinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Mike's electric adventure / standard battery thread
by Derrick J Brashear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RE: Mike's electric adventure / standard battery thread
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Fascinating.
When will the idea catch on with Toyota? Or Honda? or Chrysler?
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brad Waddell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 12:48 PM
Subject: There is a plug-in hybrid on the horizon for California
> Check out this very detailed article about 2 plug-in hybrid test vehicles
> being built for the local California power company to test by
DaimlerChrysler.
>
> http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/WEBONLY/publicfeature/jan04/0104epow1.html
>
> Brad Waddell ** FLEXquarters.com LLC ** voice-mail/fax: 602-532-7019
> Postal: 6965 El Camino Real Ste 105 #488 Carlsbad CA 92009 USA
> Plug-in to your QuickBooks data at www.qodbc.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Took a look at the Spectrum magazine; looks interesting. The following
caught my eye:
"The 14.4-kWh battery pack will use durable nickel-metal hydride
batteries from Varta Automotive GmbH, Hannover, Germany."
Interesting. The Prizm's whole Genesis pack is only 15kw in size. A
14.4kw pack made in quantity would be a nice thing indeed.
Wonder if it would fit in the trunk :-)
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>> Floodeds will sag from 96v to 84v at 300 amps even when warm. If
>> they are cold, it will be even worse.
Chris Zach wrote:
> Really? This works out (in 12 volt land) to a 1.5 volt drop for each 12
> volt battery.
Yes. A T-105 type (6v 220ah) golf cart battery will sag about 1 volt
with a 300-amp load; more as it approaches fully discharged, less when
it is fully charged. The voltage drop also gets worse as temperature
drops.
This type of battery is typically specified to have an internal
resistance of 5 milliohms. The above drop is actually better than this;
1v/300a = 3.3 milliohms.
Sealed lead-acids are better, especially when warm. Their internal
resistance also does not rise as fast as they approach dead (though it
rises very fast as they actually read dead).
Here are a couple data points that were easy for me to get. My ComutaVan
had a 72v pack of Sam's Club T-105 (Exide) batteries. At 50% SOC, 72
deg.F they measured 75v at 0a, 65v at 200a (4.2 milliohms each). My
LeCar has a 132v pack of Concorde 12v 95ah AGM batteries. At 50% SOC, 72
deg.F they measure 137v at 0a, 128v at 100a (8 milliohms).
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Such a smart idea.
Are you listening Toyota? Or Honda? or Chrysler?
Joe Smalley wrote:
>
> Fascinating.
>
> When will the idea catch on with Toyota? Or Honda? or Chrysler?
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brad Waddell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 12:48 PM
> Subject: There is a plug-in hybrid on the horizon for California
>
> > Check out this very detailed article about 2 plug-in hybrid test vehicles
> > being built for the local California power company to test by
> DaimlerChrysler.
> >
> > http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/WEBONLY/publicfeature/jan04/0104epow1.html
> >
> > Brad Waddell ** FLEXquarters.com LLC ** voice-mail/fax: 602-532-7019
> > Postal: 6965 El Camino Real Ste 105 #488 Carlsbad CA 92009 USA
> > Plug-in to your QuickBooks data at www.qodbc.com
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi - A few minor comments. I am also looking at wiring for layout of
miscellaneous components and sizing fuses etc. I'd love to look at
wiring diagrams or schematics for other vehicles, but it seems this
is VERY rare to have up on the web. I don't remember ever seeing one
except maybe on the Wilde Evolutions site. EV conversion books have
them also.
In your "Always on" section, check if your radio/stereo has a memory
that always needs power. I do not plan to keep headlights on the
always on list because of the risk of leaving them on by mistake and
not being able to get home. I'm not sure if there are laws about
this, but some things do not make sense to copy standard ICE practice.
On your EV auxiliary list, I do not see a state of charge meter (e-
meter) which would entail some critical wiring, some of which is high
voltage. You also do not mention a liquid cooling pump for your Zilla.
This would not effect your looms, but you do not mention in the EV
power section a mechanical emergency disconnect. I am locating a 250A
Heinmann circuit breaker (unless I can find something better) between
the negative side pack fuse and the shunt. By luck it will be
directly forward of the former choke cable knob that goes in-out for
a handy dashboard control.
Please let me and/or evlist know if you find any cool wiring diagrams
in public domain... and how you end up isolating the hiV signals to
the dash.
-GT
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi All
>
> I'm at the point in my conversion where I'm playing around with
wires -
> rewiring the vehicle. I'm making up a new wiring loom, and have
reached a
> list as follows:
>
> Take it as read that fuses will be in appropriate locations.
>
> 1st part: "Automotive" wiring - staying with the wire colours and
wiring
> diagram of the original vehicle, less the items not needed (and
plus some
> items not originaly provided for).
>
> 1a) 'always on' items:
> 'Ignition' switch,
> Headlights/sidelights/dash lights,
> indicators & hazards,
> interior light,
> horn,
> electric door locks and alarm,
> 'cigarette lighter' auxiliary power outlet,
> Auxiliary battery,
> Fuse panel,
>
> 1b) 'ignition' switch controlled items:
> wipers / washer,
> low brake fluid indicator,
> low brake vacuum indicator,
> Brake & reverse lights, & reverse beeper,
> handbrake warning light,
> electric heater control (contactors near traction pack),
> fan control (plus additional external control from timer with
heater),
> radio & speakers,
> tacho,
>
> 2nd part: EV auxiliary items - control for EV items plus
instrumentation.
>
> Throttle pot (twisted pair screened),
> Throttle stop position switch,
> controller auxiliary wiring (as per Otmars' Zilla wiring diagram),
> Vacuum pump control switch,
> Ammeter(/s) (twisted pair screened),
> voltmeter(/s) (twisted pair screened),
>
> 3rd part: EV power items - control of these will be in loom, power
cables
> to be seperate as required.
>
> Traction pack fusing and disconnects,
> Controller and motor power cables,
> Traction contactors and cables,
> vacuum pump contactors and cable,
> heater contactors and cable,
> DC/DC converter,
> Auxiliary control relays
> charger interlocking
>
> Not having power steering or aircon. What have I missed, what other
items
> should I allow for before re-taping the wiring loom?
>
> Related is the behavior of various items. I have an 'ignition'
switch that
> is only off-on-start (no auxiliary position). I intend to have the
start
> initiating the Zilla, 'on' to allow the normal automotive things
plus
> vacuum pump.
>
> Are there any wiring schematics for EVs on the 'net that I can
access as a
> guide? (please post or send me a link).
>
> Thanks
>
> James Massey
>
> '78 Daihatsu cab/chassis under conversion.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Take a look at the U.S. Electricar Prizm wiring layout. I don't know if
it's in the public domain, but it's available at
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/uselectricar_ev/files/
(Dolphin Wiring.zip)
(prizm battery pack schematic.jpg)
(prizm battery layout.gif)
You may have to join the group before having access to the files
section.
Similar material may be found at
http://www.uselectricar.com/downloads/download.php
Alex Karahalios
On Jan 1, 2004, at 10:06 PM, acid_lead wrote:
Please let me and/or evlist know if you find any cool wiring diagrams
in public domain... and how you end up isolating the hiV signals to
the dash.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the links. You do have to join the uselectricar list to
get the files in teh first link. In the second link, I got an error
when trying to download the dolphin wiring and service manual
documents.
I was wrong, James Massey does list a "disconnect" along with the
traction pack fuses.
I tried to look up Orange Anaconda conduit. It looks like gray is the
standard color and anything else is special order. I guess it could
be wrapped in something orange without too much ugly. Is there a
source for small quantities of the Orang stuff in 3/4" or 1" size???
-GT
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Alex Karahalios <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Take a look at the U.S. Electricar Prizm wiring layout. I don't
know if
> it's in the public domain, but it's available at
>
> http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/uselectricar_ev/files/
> (Dolphin Wiring.zip)
> (prizm battery pack schematic.jpg)
> (prizm battery layout.gif)
>
> You may have to join the group before having access to the files
> section.
>
> Similar material may be found at
>
> http://www.uselectricar.com/downloads/download.php
>
> Alex Karahalios
>
> On Jan 1, 2004, at 10:06 PM, acid_lead wrote:
>
> > Please let me and/or evlist know if you find any cool wiring
diagrams
> > in public domain... and how you end up isolating the hiV signals
to
> > the dash.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: vinnybrain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 10:10 pm
Subject: RE: High Voltage or High Current
Hi Lynn,
Thanks for the response. I think that with all thats been
presented here on the list about Orbitals and AGM's their unique
charging requirements, the fact that I'd have to buddy them up, and
their expense kinda put them out of my ballpark... along with SAFT's
and NiMh. I'm just a humble broadcaster man trying to commute down
80, not break the land-speed record----hahaaa.. Most times I've read
peope are trying to get higher accelleration and other
characteristics out of AGM's as opposed to higher range. Lee Hart
made a good point on this in a previous recent post.
I believe I had already stongly considered giving 20x8VGC's a try
over the 13xgrp27s that are already in my metro. I think what may
have be shying me away from them is that the 27's I already own have
a 120ah / 20 hr rating and 8VGC's have only a 145ah rating. That only
seems like a net pack increase of 23.7kw - 18.7kw = 5 kilowatts. Now
looking at the US145 spec I see a 244ah rating and my eyes light up
thinking 'double the amps, double the range.' I could even drop to
120 volts and 20x145's on account of the weight and still come out at
29.2kw -- 10kw more than I have now.
Then theres my other consideration... for only 238lbs more I could
have 26xUS2200's... a 35.1kw pack.
Wich leads me back to my original question.... am I better off
range-wise going for a higher voltage capacity pack, or a higher
current capacity pack.
I'm thinking if my fellow EB-EAA member Wayne Foss can make it
from Vallejo to Alameda on 120 volts of 145's I should be able to
make his distance plus the bay bridge to Bryant st part with the 156
volts of US2200's (5.9Kw more than the 20x145's.)
Any Thoughts? Ideas? I'll even take criticisms...?
Thanks,
Vince Barma
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 1 Jan 2004, Rod Hower wrote:
> Derrick,
> I would look around the Pittsburg area for other
> people interested in EV's. Robicon is located there
> and produces high HP industrial drives. Usually
> people in this line of business are interested in
> EV's.
I've never heard of them, but they are even on my side of the city.
> Some of our reps from Arrow told me about guys at
> Reliance in my neck of the woods that have converted
> EV's.
> I would keep my eyes open for 140Ahr or high SAFT
> NiCds. Jim (the guy that bought my Fiero) got a pack
> of 30 STM-180 for $2,000 buck directly from SAFT (it
> was a used pack out of a Dodge TEVan).
> I would also keep my eyes open for TEVans at auction.
Well, if I find a TEVan, I'm going to be driving it, not stripping it;-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Otmar wrote:
> With all due respect, I think there is a good reason why these no
> longer meet the NEC for EV charging... Do you really think that most
> people turn off the breaker before plugging and unplugging the 14-50
> cords? I often find my breakers left on when someone had charged.
> Ever realize how hard it is for a average tired, distracted, low
> muscle mass person to unplug a 14-50? It's oh so easy to wrap your
> fingers around the plug when it's halfway out and get 240VAC on the
> hand.
>
> For that same $380, (plus the car end) I'll gladly take the AVCON
> power pak (which I use daily) including it's protected contacts which
> are non energized before full insertion and the built in GFI. It's
> simple, fast, and lets me know if I ever have a ground fault.
>
> So although I agree that some of the standards are written in a
> difficult way, I really like the security and simplicity of the
> AVCON conductive connection. If it only had a neutral wire...
I agree; the standard 14-50 is designed to be a dirt-cheap connector for
electric ranges. It isn't designed as a good EV, RRV, or marine
connector.
However, the basic design is sound; we just need a higher-quality
version with contacts designed for many more connect/disconnect cycles,
with a handle for easy operation, and a shroud to keep finger off the
pins during mating. These are simple, straightforward changes.
The Avcon is a nice design, but it is a special-case solution for a very
limited market. Now that all the auto companies have pulled out of EVs,
the Avcon is an orphan that probably won't be produced much longer.
After all, who is going to buy it?
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
After doing some more searching, I found the same heat tape as the previous site, but
at this location, you don't have to buy 50' or 100' of the stuff.
Have ordered some to TRY as battery warmer. Will keep you folks on the list advised as
soon as I test it out.
http://www.bigappleherp.com/Reptile_Supplies/Product/Heat_Tape_119105.html
Happy New Year!
Chuck
________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Damon Henry wrote:
> How do you know when a motor has gotten too hot? Obvously if
it stops
> spinning it has, but are there other signs before that. With
my 6.7 inch
> ADC running at only 48 volts and the fairly high gear ratio I
am using to
> allow me to reach freeway speeds, I do worry about overheating
it,
> especially going up hills. I estimate that at my top speed (60
mph) the
If your motor has stopped spinning because it's gotten too hot,
that's rather terminal, like maybe you've melted the brushes or
windings or somesuch. Advanced DC motors should have an internal
switch with two wires leading from the case - if the switch
closes, the motor is too hot (and may be way too hot at that;
some people use this switch to turn on a fan to force cool air
through the motor - I've seen that done on Prestolites). If you
can put your hand on the case of the motor (the hottest part)
and keep it there without burning or jerking your hand away,
you're probably ok. That might be about 150degF for most people.
150degF is the temp that Otmar said is as high as I want my case
temperature to go. So on my car, I modified a thermistor (and I
explained this somewhat in another posting) to put it inside of
one of the lift holes in my 8" ADC. 150degF is right about when
the dash stock temp gauge needle just touches the red. I was
asking around about motor temps because I was planning on adding
a full-length bellypan to the Rabbit. Before that bellypan was
added, my motor never got so hot that I couldn't keep my hand on
the motor , even the terminal bolts on the hottest days in the
hilly terrain around here (although a few times it was getting a
little iffy on 100degF days). Now with the bellypan I will have
to add some kind of cooling ducting and perhaps a fan if I want
to go more than 15-25 miles before taking a lengthy stop to let
the motor back away from 150 degF, but I rarely go that far these
days anyways. The bellypan as it is now is only about three
inches or so from the edge of the motor at the closest point, so
not only have I removed cool air flushing through to the motor,
I've removed the slip stream underneath the motor that sucked the
hot exhaust air out. So as my friend who helped me build that
bellypan exclaimed after we got it all done, we've created
something of a hotbox! The front panel of the three-panel
bellypan is easily removable, so if I had to go >25 miles before
I get the cooling ducting in there, I could take that panel out
inside of five minutes and put it back in later.
Chuck
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
http://www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
http://www.geocities.com/chursch/bizcard.bmp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Aaron Birenboim wrote:
> The cost of multiple chargers isn't that bad. Still less than
PFC20
> in many cases. Problem is that they are not all that smart.
> The main complaint I hear about modular charging is that you
> need a good fault detection system. By the time you build
> that, you are most of the way to a relay controlled charging
bus,
> and you could use that with a single module charger.
Bill Dube tried modular chargers some years ago, and at least at
the beginning, he had what I like to think of as a "teakettle"
event. One of his modular chargers for his pack of Optimas
failed in his Wabbit, and from the story he posted, and as I
remember it, he wasn't aware of that as he drove off to Boulder
some 25 miles down the hilly freeway from his Denver Park Hill
home at probably what were typical Dube speeds. Seems that some
# of miles down the freeway, the Optima that wasn't charged hit
bottom, and notified Bill with steam and other nasties coming out
from under the rear seat. So poor Bill was on the side of the
Turnpike with steam from the now toasted ruined Optima wafting
from the red and yellow Wabbit. I don't recall reading if he
bridged the battery or got towed. But that's one reason why
we're called "EV Pioneers". So yes, a monitoring system that
informs of a modular charger fault is obligatory. I would want a
bargraph display on my dash for each battery voltage (really
whether or not I have modular charging). I think also for
modular charging a quick on-dash display that A-hr into each
battery was reasonable would be real nice elaboration (just go
through the battery pack one by one or display all the A-hr
figures at once (with a red light next to a bad one). (I like
#s and gauges, not idiot lights.)
>
> It still seems to me that if we has a nice, smart, small,
u-proc
> controlled module charger that this would be the way to go.
> There are a lot of markets for smaller chargers outside of EVs
> which could be leveraged to make a lot of them and bring the
> unit price down. If these chargers had a serial port
interface,
> perhaps we could program a multiplexer from a PDA to monitor
> health and report problems before somebody reverses a cell.
Serial port interface means that you can start communicating to a
computer with its software and custom events/feedback can start
happening.
>
> > How much would individual 12V or 6V DC to DC computer
> > controllable power supplies cost?
>
> Seems like individual, computer controlled AC to DC converters
> would be easier. Or at least similar if you freq-multiply
> (or modulate) the input to get smaller, lighter transformers.
This kind of ||'s what Lee was talking about with cost between
one big charger vs many small chargers. I'd like to get rid of
many small power supplies and go to one big one. What I'd really
like to do is get rid of all those cases, and have each charger
or DC-DC converter be on a card in a slot, rack them all up into
a metal case with the necessary cooling and watertightness
attributes (if you ford deep puddles and that box goes where the
gas tank used to be, the box had probably better be watertight).
So I think what I'm saying is is a charger-on-a-card, each card
controllable by some software somewhere else, and each card
drawing on a big, simple, clean 120VAC -> 6/12VDC power supply.
I'm also concerned about room taken up by many individual power
supplies.
I think one reason I've gotten fired up on this charger-on-a-card
idea is that a few years ago Stan Skokan down in the Bay Area
South Bay produced a few modified 5V power supplies, which ran
off of 120VAC and would produce 30A into a 6V battery. $50 was
what I paid for one. Probably say 6" long, 3" wide, and 2" in
height. I quickly learned to add a fan on top of the charger's
shell (there were lots of ventilation holes in the top of the
metal case) to avoid it getting too hot. A small screw in the
front determined the target voltage (how fast it would charge,
like a Todd). All the components were on a single card, although
the transformer and other components stuck up an inch or two.
But it was one slick little charger. Get rid of the case and
some other components that maybe you don't need to duplicate for
every battery's charger, and you just might be down to a rackable
card size. 30A on a card, wow!, that'll handle my post-bulk
charge needs and also lay the groundwork for a smoother. (Almost
sounds like a Vicor...).
I also wonder if a Rudman PFC charger format could be whipped
into useful shape for this kind of duty. Rich: a controllable
baby charger on a card? Just the guts, like we're talking about
in the above paragraph(s).
>
> > I don't think the one central
> > computer itself would be that expensive - it would just be a
> > small computer with enough power to run the charging scene
and
> > give whatever other features you want. The big AC to DC unit
> > might be the expensive piece, but maybe comparable to a
Rudman
> > PFC.
>
> Yea. There's just no excuse not to have u-processor
controllers
> in just about anything these days. I'm not experienced
> in this area (yet) but can't you get a u-proc with serial
> port drivers and some D/A (perhaps A/D) for like $2. (PIC?)
Yes, maybe it was you and I that discussed this some months back.
Which puddle to jump into and spend your valuable learning time
on? PIC, BASIC Stamp?? My software background is workstation
(Sun, Unix...) level, not down in this small u-proc stuff
interfacing with hardware. I'm fascinated by this level, though,
and if I could make it work successfully in an EV, that would be
a lifetime memory.
>
Chuck
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
http://www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
http://www.geocities.com/chursch/bizcard.bmp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's taken awhile, but I very nearly have the 24, 100 a-hr, 6 volt, SAFT
NiCads installed in my 1985 Cabriolet (Wabbit). They weigh very close to
the same as the 16 Optima YellowTops they are replacing, but should boost
the range up to 70 miles and should last my lifetime.
The cooling system was a lot more time-consuming that I anticipated. Each
of the 24 batteries has two cooling jackets, one on each side of the
battery. It took quite an effort to get a supply and return coolant line to
each of them. Then I discovered that the tubing was just a little loose.
:^) Tie-wraps weren't quite good enough, so I had to install 48 hose clamps.
Running all that pipe under the car and in and out of each battery box was
also a major pain. I ran a "reverse return" system to help ensure that the
flow through each battery was somewhat equal. This meant running three
pipes under the car instead of just two.
I ran the system in CPVC pipe. While easy to cut and connect, the glue
vapors make you too stupid to do more that simply make connections. I found
that I had to do all the layout, pre-cut all the tubing, and do any tasks
requiring intelligence before I began gluing the parts together. I would
then quickly glue it all in place and then leave the garage for the night.
It would have been more tolerable if the glue did not make me impatient and
generally cranky. :^)
The hose barbs on the batteries are 5/16 inch. It took me awhile and a few
experiments to figure out a way to connect 5/16 hose to CPVC pipe
manifolds. I could have drilled and tapped the CPVC manifolds for 1/16"
pipe and used nylon hose barbs, but I couldn't find an inexpensive source
for the 5/16 hose barbs. Since it was going to take 48 of them, cost was
not a small consideration. Also, I was concerned about the time it would
take to tap all those holes.
I ended up making small tubes from 5/16" PVC rod. I then glued these into
the CPVC pipe. No easy to find the correct glue, but FiberGlast had several
options to choose from. (All make you stupid.)
The distilled water distribution system went much more smoothly. There are
1/2 as many connections and they simply daisy-chain.
Got the E-Meter up and running and then I fired up the PFC-20 charger. No
problems whatsoever. Closed the contactor and spun the motor. Again, no
problems. Todd DC-DC converter doesn't seem to object to the lower voltage.
This weekend I'll do the gross overcharge (50%) required for the
"commissioning" charge. Then I'll top them off with distilled water and go
for a spin.
I have to do a few more things before the NiCad installation is 100%
complete. I have to figure out how to shut off the fan and the pump when
the charge is complete. I have to build a "brain" so that the charger will
automatically run the correct profile. (This will be a project in itself.)
I also have to connect up the heater.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Write up specifications for use to discuss. The discussion is ongoing but a
firm proposal for a feature set would give us a better idea of what you
want.
Isolation (required!)
PFC (desirable?)
Wide input range?
Fuses, manual reset breakers, auto reset breakers?
Output power?
Output Voltage range (6/8/12/16/24 Volts)?
Automatic configuration for 6/8/12 volt batteries?
Automatic polarity setting?
Automatic adjustment for amps on 120 or 240 VAC?
Liquid cooling?
Internal Liquid pump?
Air cooling?
Internal fan?
Adjustable speed fan?
Analog interface?
External shunt to read AHr used?
Internal AHr accumulation on charge, discharge or both?
Internal ADC for battery volts, battery amps, inlet temperature, outlet
temperature, input VAC?
Digital control and status?
Visual indicator of function?
Visible Ammeter?
Visible Voltmeter?
Remote display of all parameter?
What else do you want?
How much do you want to spend?
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 6:13 PM
Subject: Re: Possible LiOH charging thoughts
> I also wonder if a Rudman PFC charger format could be whipped
> into useful shape for this kind of duty. Rich: a controllable
> baby charger on a card? Just the guts, like we're talking about
> in the above paragraph(s).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a PFC-20 running as a peripheral from an MSDOS 486. The software was
tested over the last week and I think I got the last glitch out of it. (Is
software ever finished?)
By this time next week, I should be able to 'chain' sequences together to
make multistep profiles work. It only does single stages now (although it
does a good bulk and acceptance profile for PbA). The way the code is
written, it will be easy to write batch files with a text editor for the
program to execute.
Another feature of the PFC-20 and program is that it will do discharges as
well as charges. Again the software will do only a single sequence without
being restarted, but that should change soon too.
The conversion requires removal of the top board in the charger and plugging
an external cable into the mating connector. Everything else is external.
The charge/discharge relays with interface cards easily fit in a box the
same size as the PFC-20. If we do a 'charge only' box, it can be about half
that size.
I was planning on posting an application note on the web site, but I have
not gotten that far yet.
If you are interested in converting your charger to MSDOS remote control,
let me know so I can keep you informed.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 11:16 PM
Subject: Wabbit Weport (NiCads)
> I have to do a few more things before the NiCad installation is 100%
> complete. I have to figure out how to shut off the fan and the pump when
> the charge is complete. I have to build a "brain" so that the charger will
> automatically run the correct profile. (This will be a project in itself.)
> I also have to connect up the heater.
>
> _ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
> \'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> =(___)=
> U
> Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Some of you probably remember the AC drive motor & controller that was
up on Ebay a couple months ago.
When it didn't sell for the guy's reserve bid I sent him an email and
arranged to purchase it for $2500. Not to bad for a water cooled AC
drive system, especially when you consider it also comes with a
transmission and adapter.
Only down side is he didn't have any documentation so now I have to try
and get Ansaldo to send me some.
The motor arrived in town arrived in town while I was back at my mom's
house for Xmas so I went and picked it up on Tuesday. That left me with
the problem of figuring out how to get approx 300 lbs worth of
motor/controller/transmission out of my truck.
Good excuse to finally build that trolly and rail for the electric hoist
I've had sitting around gathering dust for the last year.
Anyway here is a photo of the motor/controller/etc:
<http://www.vanderwal.us/ev/hybrid/motor.jpg>
Oh yeah, here is a photo of the Marathon NiCads batteries I picked up at
I-10 Surplus.
<http://www.vanderwal.us/ev/hybrid/cells.jpg>
I got a 288V @ 34 Ah pack for $300 total.
Their real world energy density is a little better than Exide Obitals,
which means only about 1/2 as good as Saft NiCads, but then again they
were $12,000 cheaper than Safts.
--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a
capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the
safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I agree; the standard 14-50 is designed to be a dirt-cheap connector for
> electric ranges. It isn't designed as a good EV, RRV, or marine
> connector.
I've proposed this before on several occasions, but why not use an IEC 309
connector?
They're robust (I've driven over one before now), reasonably cheap, and even
available in an IP67 version (which is compatable with the standard
version). At work I have an IP67 outlet box with mechanically interlocked
isolator switch. There are pictures on my website.
Paul Compton
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 02:14 PM 01/01/2004 -0800, you wrote:
When will the idea catch on with Toyota? Or Honda? or Chrysler?
I think it much more likely that the companies listening to this new market
are Subaru, Volkswagen, Suzuki and Kia, looking to break into new markets
and be innovative.
brad
Brad Waddell ** FLEXquarters.com LLC ** voice-mail/fax: 602-532-7019
Postal: 6965 El Camino Real Ste 105 #488 Carlsbad CA 92009 USA
Plug-in to your QuickBooks data at www.qodbc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Very nice, Peter!
I would be curious to see how your 34Ah NiCads perform agains my 30Ah
ones.
What sort of car/truck are you going to put all this in?
Seth
On Jan 2, 2004, at 3:22 AM, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
Some of you probably remember the AC drive motor & controller that was
up on Ebay a couple months ago.
When it didn't sell for the guy's reserve bid I sent him an email and
arranged to purchase it for $2500. Not to bad for a water cooled AC
drive system, especially when you consider it also comes with a
transmission and adapter.
Only down side is he didn't have any documentation so now I have to try
and get Ansaldo to send me some.
The motor arrived in town arrived in town while I was back at my mom's
house for Xmas so I went and picked it up on Tuesday. That left me
with
the problem of figuring out how to get approx 300 lbs worth of
motor/controller/transmission out of my truck.
Good excuse to finally build that trolly and rail for the electric
hoist
I've had sitting around gathering dust for the last year.
Anyway here is a photo of the motor/controller/etc:
<http://www.vanderwal.us/ev/hybrid/motor.jpg>
Oh yeah, here is a photo of the Marathon NiCads batteries I picked up
at
I-10 Surplus.
<http://www.vanderwal.us/ev/hybrid/cells.jpg>
I got a 288V @ 34 Ah pack for $300 total.
Their real world energy density is a little better than Exide Obitals,
which means only about 1/2 as good as Saft NiCads, but then again they
were $12,000 cheaper than Safts.
--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a
capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the
safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 12:09 AM 1/2/2004, Joe Smalley wrote:
The conversion requires removal of the top board in the charger and
plugging
an external cable into the mating connector. Everything else is external.
The charge/discharge relays with interface cards easily fit in a box the
same size as the PFC-20. If we do a 'charge only' box, it can be about
half
that size.
Sounds similar to what I did. The only difference is I went the route of
using an opto-isolator driving the RegBus interface. This allows me to
control the current output via Digipot.
Seems to work pretty well, though I still have to tweak a few resistor
values.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
> The Avcon is a nice design, but it is a special-case solution
> for a very limited market. Now that all the auto companies
> have pulled out of EVs, the Avcon is an orphan that probably
> won't be produced much longer. After all, who is going to buy it?
Hi Lee,
I forget where I saw this, but I believe some municipalities or even
states have requirements (or subsidies?) that mandate (encourage?) new
commercial building owners to include "green" features. What I read was
that Avcons are popular for this due to their relatively low cost when
designed in from the start. The builders don't care that there are
essentially no EVs around that can use them, they're just meeting a spec
at a cost. I think I read this in regard to buildings in the Washington
DC area, which has virtually no EV activity outside the excellent
efforts of EVA/DC.
Can anyone confirm or expound on my admittedly fuzzy recollection?
Chris
P.S.
Hmmm.
<faint wisp of memory>
Maybe I heard this in a conversation with Meltric, the manufacturer of
Avcon products....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A thought experiment that will help me understand battery voodoo
a little better:
- two packs of equal Ah cpacity, one flooded and the other AGM
- draw 200 amps for 20 minutes out of each pack
- Given, the flooded pack sags more than the AGM pack
Do you end up with more energy out of the AGM pack? If I
understand correctly, the answer would be yes, because the
watt-hours output is the integral of the instantaneous watts
(volt x amp at each instant) over the time of the experiment.
If you were able to test these packs in an EV, same route, same
speed, would you end up going further with the AGM pack because
of the reduced voltage sag? If so, does that mean that an AGM
pack of the same weight will give better range than a flooded pack?
When I'm driving my 96 volt Citroen D, I try to keep the volts
above 84 (1.75 vpc) at all times. This becomes increasingly
difficult to do as I approach the end of my longest run,
effectively limiting my range. I consider my range to be (more
or less) that distance over which I can still draw 300 amps to
get up the hills at a non-embarrassing speed.
This relates to Derrick Brashear's question about new batteries
for his Daytona. At the end of his commute he may be hard pressed
to keep from drawing his pack down too much. Better to get some
opportunity charge at work, Derrick!
Mike Hoskinson
Edmonton
P.S. Thanks for the data points, Lee. A newby like myself
appreciates knowing what to expect.
Lee Hart wrote:
...snip
Here are a couple data points that were easy for me to get. My ComutaVan
had a 72v pack of Sam's Club T-105 (Exide) batteries. At 50% SOC, 72
deg.F they measured 75v at 0a, 65v at 200a (4.2 milliohms each). My
LeCar has a 132v pack of Concorde 12v 95ah AGM batteries. At 50% SOC, 72
deg.F they measure 137v at 0a, 128v at 100a (8 milliohms).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 2 Jan 2004, Michael Hoskinson wrote:
> When I'm driving my 96 volt Citroen D, I try to keep the volts
> above 84 (1.75 vpc) at all times. This becomes increasingly
> difficult to do as I approach the end of my longest run,
> effectively limiting my range. I consider my range to be (more
> or less) that distance over which I can still draw 300 amps to
> get up the hills at a non-embarrassing speed.
Some experimentation shows I can pull the hill above my house (not part of
my route home) at 15mph pulling 300a. I don't know yet if the lesser hills
which are scattered about my usual route to work have similar demands.
> This relates to Derrick Brashear's question about new batteries
> for his Daytona. At the end of his commute he may be hard pressed
> to keep from drawing his pack down too much. Better to get some
> opportunity charge at work, Derrick!
Thankfully there is one upgrade about 1/3 of the way through my route
home, and then none until I can use local streets in my local
municipality.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike, what you say is true, but you also have slightly more capacity from
the AGM's because the peukert exponent is less. Thus you should get more
range out of them, given the conditions you describe for your thought
experiment, because the actual capacity at a given EV level current draw is
more due to Peukert effects.
However, with AGM's it becomes more difficult to judge SOC by the method you
describe (watching voltage sag under load). With an AGM battery, the
voltage is very stable under load until the SOC is very close to zero. With
floodeds, there is more of a taper in the amount of voltage sag vs. SOC as
you draw them down.
So with your flooded pack, you can tell by watching the voltage drop "Hm.
I'm getting low on charge. I need to find an outlet in the next 5 miles or
so." With an AGM, and no other way to tell SOC other than voltage sag, you
might think "I'm fine" until the voltage suddenly drops, and you find
yourself unable to drive even 1 mile to an outlet.
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Hoskinson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 12:04 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Mike's electric adventure / standard battery thread
A thought experiment that will help me understand battery voodoo
a little better:
- two packs of equal Ah cpacity, one flooded and the other AGM
- draw 200 amps for 20 minutes out of each pack
- Given, the flooded pack sags more than the AGM pack
Do you end up with more energy out of the AGM pack? If I
understand correctly, the answer would be yes, because the
watt-hours output is the integral of the instantaneous watts
(volt x amp at each instant) over the time of the experiment.
If you were able to test these packs in an EV, same route, same
speed, would you end up going further with the AGM pack because
of the reduced voltage sag? If so, does that mean that an AGM
pack of the same weight will give better range than a flooded pack?
When I'm driving my 96 volt Citroen D, I try to keep the volts
above 84 (1.75 vpc) at all times. This becomes increasingly
difficult to do as I approach the end of my longest run,
effectively limiting my range. I consider my range to be (more
or less) that distance over which I can still draw 300 amps to
get up the hills at a non-embarrassing speed.
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--- End Message ---
