EV Digest 3256
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Wiring harness for EV - what's needed? (longish)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Blessing in disguise. ( Charging Complexities, Simplified! )
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Mike's electric adventure / standard battery thread
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Mike's electric adventure / standard battery thread
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Mike's electric adventure / standard battery thread
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Mike's electric adventure / standard battery thread
by Michael Hoskinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Mike's electric adventure / standard battery thread
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Heat Tape
by "acid_lead" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Wiring harness for EV - what's needed?
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Wabbit Weport (NiCads)
by "James" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Remove Me from E-mail List
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) Re: Wiring harness for EV - what's needed? (longish)
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Wiring harness for EV - what's needed?
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: High Voltage or High Current
by "vinnybrain" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: High Voltage or High Current
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Distributed systems (was Re: Possible LiOH charging thoughts)
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Wiring harness for EV - what's needed?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Wiring harness for EV - what's needed?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Wiring harness for EV - what's needed?
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) EV picture donations
by "Ryan Bohm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Wiring harness for EV - what's needed?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Wiring harness for EV - what's needed?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Michael Moore on Hydrogen!
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: High Voltage or High Current
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Wiring harness for EV - what's needed?
by Michael Hoskinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
acid_lead wrote:
> I tried to look up Orange Anaconda conduit. It looks like gray is the
> standard color and anything else is special order. I guess it could
> be wrapped in something orange without too much ugly. Is there a
> source for small quantities of the Orang stuff in 3/4" or 1" size???
Orange 2/0 cable, orange heatshrink, and orange split loom tubing is
*tough* to find. Here are the links I found while searching for it.
-- Orange tubing: Daburn Electronics <http://www.daburn.com> has 45' of
D105-4 orange PVC #4 (0.22" dia.) in stock, but $50 min order, 30,000'
min run (per Howard Danziger 201-768-5400). Insultab orange #4 PVC is
$0.029/ft, 32,000' minimum, none in stock.
-- Orange split-loom tubing (not UL listed, flammable, for car audio):
1/4" to 1", $1-2$/foot available at
<https://www.streetglow.com/cgi-local/shop.pl/SID=1028209009/adcode=/page=s-hottloomz.htm>.
Also try F&R Manufacturing, Pleasant Hill OR, 541-747-1915.
-- Orange 2/0 cable: Carroll Super Vu-tron welding cable, MSHA spec,
-50 to +90 deg.C, Class M, CSA/UL 600V, p/n 01763 (for 2/0). About
$5/foot, 250 ft. minimum purchase.
Here is some other data from Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
<http://www.iewc.com/catalog/Welding1.htm> Industrial Electric Wire &
Cable also carries Class M (600V -55C to +90C) cable in orange (CPW)
insulation, but doesn't list a price or indicate if they sell by the
foot. Nor do they indicate the manufacturer of the cable.
Orange seems to be a [the?] standard colour for "extra flexible" Class M
cable (e.g. 3300 strands of #34 vs 1300 strands of #30 Class K).
<http://www.superioressex.com/electrical/elec_specprod.htm> Superior
Essex offers their "extra flexible" Class K (600V -50C to +90C) 'SUPER
ExCELENE' cable in orange as standard. Hopefully they will have a dealer
in my area that will sell by the foot.
<http://www.solar-electric.com> The jackpot seems to be Northern Arizona
Wind & Sun, who offers Trystar brand welding cable ("flexible" 600V,
-50F to +150F) by the foot (or in 25', 50', or 100' boxes for a
discount) in colours red, black, clear, yellow, orange, blue, and green!
Red and black are "always in stock", while some other colours may take
5-10 days longer. The price seems exceptionally good as well.
Unfortunately, I couldn't turn up a website for Trystar Cable although
there were a few hits on welding supply pages. Does ayone know anything
about this brand? I'm wondering if the low price reflects non-UL listed
product, or coarser stranding than the Class K and M cable offered
elsewhere?
A quick update: I have located a local retailer of the orange Super
Vu-tron cable! CDN$8.50/meter for 2/0, with a CDN$50 minimum order.
If my currency and units conversions are right, this works out to
US$1.69/ft, which is as good as any price I found online for "ordinary"
welding cable and better than most.
In case anyone else in the area is interested, the retailer (located in
Richmond, BC) is:
E.C.S. Electrical Cable Supply Ltd.
Phone: 604-276-9473
Toll free: 1-800-661-4165 (within B.C.)
Fax: 604-276-9915
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul Compton wrote:
>
> > I agree; the standard 14-50 is designed to be a dirt-cheap connector for
> > electric ranges. It isn't designed as a good EV, RRV, or marine
> > connector.
>
> I've proposed this before on several occasions, but why not use an IEC 309
> connector?
>
> They're robust (I've driven over one before now), reasonably cheap, and even
> available in an IP67 version (which is compatable with the standard
> version). At work I have an IP67 outlet box with mechanically interlocked
> isolator switch. There are pictures on my website.
Could you provide a little more information on this connector (ratings,
mechanical, etc.)? What is it normally used for?
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 2004-01-02 at 11:03, Michael Hoskinson wrote:
> A thought experiment that will help me understand battery voodoo
> a little better:
>
> - two packs of equal Ah cpacity, one flooded and the other AGM
> - draw 200 amps for 20 minutes out of each pack
> - Given, the flooded pack sags more than the AGM pack
>
> Do you end up with more energy out of the AGM pack? If I
> understand correctly, the answer would be yes, because the
> watt-hours output is the integral of the instantaneous watts
> (volt x amp at each instant) over the time of the experiment.
>
> If you were able to test these packs in an EV, same route, same
> speed, would you end up going further with the AGM pack because
> of the reduced voltage sag? If so, does that mean that an AGM
> pack of the same weight will give better range than a flooded pack?
>
Well...sort of. The problem is that AGMs tend to weigh more per rated
WH than floodeds. So a given weight in floodeds will have a higher
capacity than AGMs when used at the 20 hr rate.
However, as you know, AGMs have a better Peukert number and sag less so
they handle high current draws better than floodeds. At some point the
advantage switches over to AGMs.
The rule of thumb is that if your average current draw is higher than 1C
(i.e. you run dry after one hour of use), then AGMs will produce more WH
per pound. Right around 1C they are even, at 2C (30 minute discharge)
AGMs have a clear advantage.
So if your battery pack goes dry in 55 minutes (slightly higher than 1C)
then you could probably go either way, you might want to base your
decision on cost. However if you do a lot of jack rabbit starts then
AGMs will give you better range even if your average is around 1C
> When I'm driving my 96 volt Citroen D, I try to keep the volts
> above 84 (1.75 vpc) at all times. This becomes increasingly
> difficult to do as I approach the end of my longest run,
> effectively limiting my range. I consider my range to be (more
> or less) that distance over which I can still draw 300 amps to
> get up the hills at a non-embarrassing speed.
>
AGMsd will probably help then. I've noticed that they make a standard
6V T-105 size AGM now, something to consider since it would mean no
battery rack modifications. Just a note though, they cost about twice
as much as flooded T-105s (and have a lower 20 hr rated capacity). and
of course you'll probably want some kind of battery regulators.
--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a
capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the
safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael Hoskinson wrote:
> A thought experiment that will help me understand battery voodoo
> a little better:
>
> - two packs of equal Ah cpacity, one flooded and the other AGM
> - draw 200 amps for 20 minutes out of each pack
> - Given, the flooded pack sags more than the AGM pack
>
> Do you end up with more energy out of the AGM pack? If I
> understand correctly, the answer would be yes, because the
> watt-hours output is the integral of the instantaneous watts
> (volt x amp at each instant) over the time of the experiment.
Yes; if the AGM has a lower internal resistance, then its voltage under
load is higher. Thus each pack delivers the same amphours (200 amps for
20 minutes), but the AGM pack delivered more energy.
> If you were able to test these packs in an EV, same route, same
> speed, would you end up going further with the AGM pack because
> of the reduced voltage sag? If so, does that mean that an AGM
> pack of the same weight will give better range than a flooded pack?
Yes, you would go further in with the AGM pack. Assuming you drove
identically, the slightly higher voltage of the AGM pack would mean you
draw slightly less current for the same speed.
> When I'm driving my 96 volt Citroen D, I try to keep the volts
> above 84 (1.75 vpc) at all times. This becomes increasingly
> difficult to do as I approach the end of my longest run,
> effectively limiting my range. I consider my range to be (more
> or less) that distance over which I can still draw 300 amps to
> get up the hills at a non-embarrassing speed.
Right. The batteries aren't 'dead' -- they are just discharged to the
point where they can no longer deliver that 300 amps.
Letting the batteries rest, or warming them up, or just driving slower
to reduce the current would let you drive further.
Of course, there are complications... (aren't there always :-)
At *LOW* currents, the flooded battery will deliver more amphours and
more watthours, pound-for-pound, than the AGM battery. So, if your
discharge takes well over a hour, the floodeds will outperform the AGMs.
You could either drive slow, or just have such a large pack that it
takes hours to discharge it even at high speed.
At *HIGH* currents, the AGM will deliver more amphours and more
watthours, pound-for-pound, than floodeds. If you are discharging in 30
minutes or less, AGMs win.
The 1-hour rate is right around the break-even point. Whether AGM or
flooded wins depends on exactly which batteries you are comparing, how
high the peak discharge current was during that 1-hour period, and other
minor factors.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Brandt wrote:
> Mike, what you say is true, but you also have slightly more capacity
> from the AGM's because the peukert exponent is less.
This is true, but you have to watch the details. There are some AGMs
(Concordes, for example) with a worse Peukert exponent than some
floodeds (T-145, for example). And, Peukert matters less when your
actual load current is less.
> However, with AGM's it becomes more difficult to judge SOC by the
> method you describe (watching voltage sag under load). With an AGM
> battery, the voltage is very stable under load until the SOC is
> very close to zero. With floodeds, there is more of a taper in the
> amount of voltage sag vs. SOC as you draw them down.
With AGMs, it is only slightly more difficult to judge SOC from voltage,
but it still works. You can't use the same volts-SOC relationship, but
the method is still workable (though not very accurate for either type).
The volts-SOC relationship is really only useful at no-load, and then it
is pretty consistent for both types.
> So with your flooded pack, you can tell by watching the voltage drop
> "Hm. I'm getting low on charge. I need to find an outlet in the next
> 5 miles or so." With an AGM, and no other way to tell SOC other than
> voltage sag, you might think "I'm fine" until the voltage suddenly
> drops, and you find yourself unable to drive even 1 mile to an outlet.
That is indeed the behaviour you will see if you are discharging at high
current.
Here's what's happening. All lead-acid batteries have a SMALL change in
voltage vs. SOC; a 12v battery changes about 0.7 to 1.0 volts from 0% to
100% SOC. But they have a LARGE change in voltage due to load; a 0.005
ohm internal resistance means the voltage changes 2 volts for a 0-400
amp load change (pretty common in an EV).
Internal resistance rises as the battery discharges. The floodeds have a
higher resistance to start with, so it gets large enough to cause a
serious voltage sag earlier -- well before the battery is actually dead.
The AGMs have lower resistance, so they get closer to dead before their
internal resistance rises enough to cause a large voltage drop.
So, if you take your foot off the throttle, and judge SOC by the no-load
voltage, you can (roughly) estimate SOC. But, you can't guess at SOC
while driving, because most of what you are seeing is the battery's
internal resistance.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
...snip
Internal resistance rises as the battery discharges. The floodeds have a
higher resistance to start with, so it gets large enough to cause a
serious voltage sag earlier -- well before the battery is actually dead.
The AGMs have lower resistance, so they get closer to dead before their
internal resistance rises enough to cause a large voltage drop.
When I'm down to 30% SOC (by emeter), does the 300 amp draw that
sags the flooded pack below 1.75 vpc hurt the batteries? Much?
Mike Hoskinson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee wrote:
"This is true, but you have to watch the details. There are some AGMs
(Concordes, for example) with a worse Peukert exponent than some
floodeds (T-145, for example). And, Peukert matters less when your
actual load current is less."
Oops. You're right. I forgot not all AGM's are hot rods like Optimas or
orbitals.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> After doing some more searching, I found the same heat tape as the
previous site, but at this location, you don't have to buy 50' or
100' of the stuff.
>
> Have ordered some to TRY as battery warmer. Will keep you folks on
the list advised as soon as I test it out.
>
>
http://www.bigappleherp.com/Reptile_Supplies/Product/Heat_Tape_119105.
html
>
> Happy New Year!
> Chuck
Please do... Be a Saint and take some temperature measurements before
and after adding the heaters, under same/similar conditions (or at
least known ambient temp and like "just charged" or "just finished
driving 10 miles" etc.) and "the battery heats up x degrees in y
minutes in a z degree garage"...
-GT
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
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--- Begin Message ---
"If you are interested in converting your charger to MSDOS remote control,
let me know so I can keep you informed."
Please send the info along.
Thanks
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
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--- Begin Message ---
How about flexible nonmetallic conduit, aka "inner duct"?
It's not split, so you have to plan ahead and put it in place first and
then pull the wires through it.
Orange inner duct is commonly used for fiber optic cabling inside
buildings... 1.25" comes to mind as the most common size. Also see it in
blue and white. Trying to buy short lengths is hard, but make friends
and/or dumpster dive at a building being wired... their 8' scrap would
run the length of your car.
If you are lucky you might find someone using armored fiber optic cable,
which has the fiber inside of MC with a orange plastic coating on the
outside. Once inside the data closet they cut the armor off the last
10-20 feet, so again scraps for the taking. It is probably about 1/2"
diameter so only good for the smaller HV lines. (yes, I missed my chance
to snag some this summer...)
You can also get plastic flex conduit in blue in 1/2" and 3/4" sizes at
your local big box home supply store. Or liquid-tight MC in ugly gray.
acid_lead wrote:
> Is there a source for small quantities of
> the Orang stuff in 3/4" or 1" size???
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 05:06 AM 2/01/04 +0000, you [acid_lead] wrote:
Hi - A few minor comments. I am also looking at wiring for layout of
miscellaneous components and sizing fuses etc. I'd love to look at
wiring diagrams or schematics for other vehicles, but it seems this
is VERY rare to have up on the web. <snip>
I did a search and didn't turn up any that were useful. I'm doing a drawing
in MS word of the complete vehicle diagram. Once I get reasonably
progressed with it I'll work out some way to make it available to those who
are interested. I'm going to put together a manual for my vehicle with as
much info as I can find - parts specs and everything I can put together.
In your "Always on" section, check if your radio/stereo has a memory
that always needs power.
I haven't got it yet - the original in the vehicle was AM only, and apart
from the .... um... increased unwanted field strength on the AM band, the
AM stations here are hardly worth listening to (bland pop, talkback and
sport). I'm on the lookout for a smaller-than-standard height AM/FM radio
with a clock in it. I can't fit a standard DIN height radio in my dash.
I do not plan to keep headlights on the
always on list because of the risk of leaving them on by mistake and
not being able to get home. I'm not sure if there are laws about
this, but some things do not make sense to copy standard ICE practice.
Yes, with an emergency disconnect the ICE problem of "throttle stuck, dark,
if I turn the key off I loose the headlights" is no longer valid. I'm going
to have relays for the headlights, so I won't be overloading the 'ignition'
switch. Valid change, although I'll check local regulations, they may be
required to be allways available. If so, I'll allow the tap-in points for a
headlight alert.
On your EV auxiliary list, I do not see a state of charge meter (e-
meter) which would entail some critical wiring, some of which is high
voltage. You also do not mention a liquid cooling pump for your Zilla.
I have been contemplating an E-meter, and although I think I'll not fit one
initially (for financial reasons), I think that I should put all the wiring
in place for one. The liquid cooling pump is mentioned in the Zilla
documentation, but isn't on the Zilla wiring diagram, so I should have
listed it seperately. Fortunately I have a 12VDC circulation pump from a
dialysis machine that should work fine, along with a heater core and a 4"
'muffin' fan.
This would not effect your looms, but you do not mention in the EV
power section a mechanical emergency disconnect. I am locating a 250A
Heinmann circuit breaker (unless I can find something better) between
the negative side pack fuse and the shunt. By luck it will be
directly forward of the former choke cable knob that goes in-out for
a handy dashboard control.
I'm contemplating various schemes for the emergency disconnect, varying
from purchacing a big-red-button (BRB) type, and having longer power
cables, to using triple contactors (which I have) and using electrical
disconnect from:
1) the g-shock sensor, and
2) an industrial control BRB, and
3) a pressure switch in the brake lines, that under emergency braking force
would trip, but not under normal braking, and
4) the drivers' side door switch, since we don't want the motive power on
without a driver, and
5) ?? what else??
Please let me and/or evlist know if you find any cool wiring diagrams
in public domain...
I certainly will
and how you end up isolating the hiV signals to
the dash.
-GT
I have changed the dash over from a Daihatsu that had central face vents,
but my vehicle doesn't have the heater unit connections for them. I'm
thinking that the meters may be mounted behind the dash, viewable through
the vent holes. That or move the radio to the vent position, and open the
space where the radio was. This way I can bring one annaconda conduit up
behind the dash, then break out to the heater and meters from a terminal
box. One of the attractions of the Zilla is the 12V reference for all of
the I/O. I think I'll only need to have HV connection for the heater core,
volt and amp meters, plus a floating power supply for a future E-meter. The
rest of the HV will be in the battery pack, the adjacent box for the
contactors, and the power cables from that box. I'm going to use dual
contactors for all HV, so with the vehicle off there is no HV reference
outside the battery and contactor enclosures.
On a side note, the orange 'Annaconda' that I have came from a liquidation
sale of a electrical contractor that had been doing industrial and marine
work. It may be worthwhile contacting similar electrical contractors in
your locality to see if they have any leftover from a job.
James Massey
'78 Daihatsu cab/chassis under conversion.
Launceston, Tasmania, Australia.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was wondering if anyone else on the list might have some
suggestions as to wich way I should go on my batteries for my Metro..
Here's the choices:
20x US145
26x US2200/T105/SamsClubT105
20x US8VGC (doesnt seem like all that much more current than my
13xgrp27's can already produce)
or
a buddy string of 26 Orbital 34 XCM's (and all its entanglements)
Any help would be appreciated,
Thanks,
Vince Barma
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The choice between the T-105s and 145s kinda depends on the rest of your
components (can they handle they higher voltage?)
I'd avoid the 8V batteries in this case. They loose to 105s on both
usable energy and usable power at EV current levels, plus even when you
baby them they don't live as long.
On Fri, 2004-01-02 at 20:58, vinnybrain wrote:
> I was wondering if anyone else on the list might have some
> suggestions as to wich way I should go on my batteries for my Metro..
> Here's the choices:
> 20x US145
> 26x US2200/T105/SamsClubT105
> 20x US8VGC (doesnt seem like all that much more current than my
> 13xgrp27's can already produce)
> or
> a buddy string of 26 Orbital 34 XCM's (and all its entanglements)
>
> Any help would be appreciated,
>
> Thanks,
>
> Vince Barma
--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a
capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the
safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thursday, January 1, 2004, at 04:12 PM, Lee Hart wrote:
Doug Weathers wrote:
modular battery charging... I really like the idea - it's a shame I
can't just buy a modular charger/battery management/instrumentation
system.
Well, we're working on such a system for the Tango right now. It's an
open design, in case anyone wants to duplicate it.
Fascinating! Who's "we"? When will the design be released? Do you
know of anyone who plans to sell kits or completed modules? My EV is
a-building in the garage and I'm going to need a charging/battery
management system for 15 Optima yellow tops sometime this year.
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.homedns.org:8100/weblog/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How about 'it won't move if the charger is connected to power'.
Once in five years, I tried to move my car with the charger cable plugged
into power.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Massey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 7:14 PM
Subject: Re: Wiring harness for EV - what's needed?
> I'm contemplating various schemes for the emergency disconnect, varying
> from purchacing a big-red-button (BRB) type, and having longer power
> cables, to using triple contactors (which I have) and using electrical
> disconnect from:
> 1) the g-shock sensor, and
> 2) an industrial control BRB, and
> 3) a pressure switch in the brake lines, that under emergency braking
force
> would trip, but not under normal braking, and
> 4) the drivers' side door switch, since we don't want the motive power on
> without a driver, and
> 5) ?? what else??
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joe Smalley wrote:
> How about 'it won't move if the charger is connected to power'.
> Once in five years, I tried to move my car with the charger cable
> plugged into power.
...and what happened?
I don't have any interlock on my EV. But the charging connector is a
common 120vac 15amp on the front grille, which plugs into an extension
cord. The EV is driven into my garage nose-first. If I back the car out
with the charger connected, it simply unplugs itself.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joe Smalley wrote:
How about 'it won't move if the charger is connected to power'.
Once in five years, I tried to move my car with the charger cable
plugged into power.
...and what happened?
I don't have any interlock on my EV. But the charging connector is a
common 120vac 15amp on the front grille, which plugs into an extension
cord. The EV is driven into my garage nose-first. If I back the car out
with the charger connected, it simply unplugs itself.
I had a similar connection on the back of my Sprint. I used to
parallel park it in the street. About once a year I would come home
and see the cord stretched out down the street. It's a bit
embarrassing. :-)
It is important to note that it's better to inhibit vehicle operation
whenever the cable is plugged in, not only when power is applied.
This protects the cord when breakers trip and the cord remains
connected.
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com
Mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Everyone,
I'm slowly getting my EV website going (http://www.evsource.com) - I'd like
to put a real neat looking picture of an EV on the homepage. If anyone has
pictures they would be willing to give me of their cars (under the hood
shots would be cool), I'd be really appreciate. I'm trying to put together
something that will be useful to the EV community. If anyone has
suggestions of things that would be helpful that doesn't currently exist, or
maybe doesn't exist "well", I'm open to ideas.
Thanks,
Ryan
_________________________________________________________
Ever seen an electric car? Visit www.evsource.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The cord is plugged into the driver's side of the car and I dragged it until
I noticed it. I was backing out of the garage at the time and did not pull
it taut so no damage occurred.
If the cord had gotten under the front wheel, I could have broken the inlet
housing or severed the cord where it came out of the former fuel inlet.
If I had been backed into the garage and taken off forward, I probably would
not have seen the cord until something had broken.
I took it as a warning to be more careful when getting into the car.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 11:47 PM
Subject: Re: Wiring harness for EV - what's needed?
> Joe Smalley wrote:
> > How about 'it won't move if the charger is connected to power'.
> > Once in five years, I tried to move my car with the charger cable
> > plugged into power.
>
> ...and what happened?
>
> I don't have any interlock on my EV. But the charging connector is a
> common 120vac 15amp on the front grille, which plugs into an extension
> cord. The EV is driven into my garage nose-first. If I back the car out
> with the charger connected, it simply unplugs itself.
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Concur.
My car has a cover over the connector inlet. I was thinking that if I ran
the precharge contactor power through a microswitch on the cover and used
the other contact of the SPDT switch to a buzzer and light, it would remind
me to unplug and close the cover.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Otmar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 10:18 PM
Subject: Re: Wiring harness for EV - what's needed?
> It is important to note that it's better to inhibit vehicle operation
> whenever the cable is plugged in, not only when power is applied.
> This protects the cord when breakers trip and the cord remains
> connected.
>
> --
> -Otmar-
> http://www.CafeElectric.com
> Mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Message: 3
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 10:46:00 -0500
From: RemyC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Michael Moore on Hydrogen!
From:
http://www.evuk.co.uk/hotwires/rawstuff/art57.html
(For pictures and hyperlinks in the text, go directly to url to read story.)
HOTWIRE:
RAWSTUFF
DUDE, Where's my hydrogen? Michael Moore debunks another myth..
...in a dream that's also a wake-up call.
In "Oil's Well that Ends Well" (Chapter 3 of his latest no.1 best-seller
'Dude, Where's My Country') Michael Moore, born 1954, dreams it's the year
2054 and he's a 100 year old great grand'pa. It's a nightmarish
post-apocalyptic, post-hydrogen-hype, fossil-fooled world and he finds
himself engaged in conversation with an imaginary, deeply disillusioned and
reproachful great grand-daughter named Anne Coulter Moore(see note below).
This dream, writes Moore, "was so real it felt like something right out of
Scrooge."
"Scroo'd" / "Screwed" might be a more apt - if less Dickensian title for
this haunting little dream sequence.
(But, hey Dude, Michael where's your Lexus 2054? This is clearly a very
different 2054, technologically at least, to the 2054 timescape of the
sci-fi thriller Minority Report in which Tom Cruise charges round in an
all-battery-electric, non-fuel-cell, lithium Lexus 2054 supercar...)
Anyway, the party's over and the game's definitely up in this, Moore's eerie
vision of a post-oil era in which bewildered children ask not:
"What did you do in the war, daddy?" but
"What did you do in the battle to save the planet, daddy and mummy?"
And so it is that Michael Moore finds himself chatting to little Anne - anno
2054 - about oil, the 'die-off' and the hydrogen fuel cell wash-out - here's
an excerpt:
Anne: What was it like when you couldn't breathe because of the dirty air
caused by burning what you called gasoline? ...
Michael: Ooh, ooh, that smell. It was nature's way of telling you
something's wrong. What were we thinking?..
Anne: But it was poisoning you. And you didn't have breathing stations like
we do now, so what did you do?
Michael: People would just have to suck it up and breathe it in. This caused
millions of people to breathe and die. No one wanted to say it was air
pollution from burning fossil fuels that was making it hard to breathe..
(......)
A: My sixth grade teacher told us one of your leaders believed "hydrogen
fuel cells" would replace gasoline cars but they didn't. That was crazy!
Today every kid knows that hydrogen is hard to get.Sure it's in H20, but it
takes a lot of energy to break off the hydrogen - and a lot of energy was
what you didn't have. Duh!
M: You're right, Anne, we were all hepped up on so much Prozac and cable
television we always believed what our leaders told us. We even believed
them when they said that "hydrogen was the Second Coming - limitless,
pollution-free energy that will soon replace oil!" We spent so much money on
our military to make sure we had access to oil that our schools were falling
apart, making everyone grow up dumb and dumber - and therefore, no one
realised that hydrogen was not even a fuel at all! It got so bad , most
college graduates didn't even know what H20 stood for!
Soon things really got bad. We ran low on oil, and there wasn't any hydrogen
to run our cars, so people got really mad. But it was too late. That's when
the die-off began.
DUDE, I have a dream...
Related links:
1) Water-to-hydrogen-electrolysis - the green panacea?
Yikes! Don't mention the World Water Shortage and Water Wars! As of 2003
almost half the planet lacks water for drinking, cooking, sanitation and
agriculture: see Water Wars Vandana Shiva plus World Water Forum and World
Water Council.
But even in Britain - in these flood-plagued, rain-drenched British Isles,
we are now yet again facing the possibility of a nationwide winter water
shortage. See Guardian report(Nov' 03) "Save water or risk drought, official
warns".
In 2054 headlines could well read: "Water, water all around but not a drop
to drink - or drive with!"
2) See earlier EVUK report:
"Two new studies reaffirm: advanced battery vehicles - not fuel cells - are
the logical / best way forward."
plus Econogics report."The Hydrogen Economy - An Idea Whose Time Hasn't
Come...Again" (..the fuel cell was invented in 1839, folks!)
3) Also highly recommended: Michael Moore thinkalike Al Franken's 2003 no.1
best-seller "Lies, and the Lying Liars who Tell Them" - especially Ch.39
"The Bush Environmental Record". See Al-Franken.com for extracts etc.
4) Ann(sic) Coulter - an extreme right-wing, blond bombshell(how
appropriate..) talkshow host and Fox News hot air-head.
Infamously, in her book "Treason", Coulter calls for opponents of Bush's
Iraq War to be tried for treason.
Stupid White Men, Michael ?!?
See Ann Coulter.com - if you're up to it.
Otherwise escape quickly to:
5) Michael Moore.com
Final thoughts:
- Moore's Law states that:
"People Power doubles every 18 months - once people wake up to the abuse of
power by government, the media and giant corporations."
OK, Michael, we invented this law...it's a lie. But it's quite a Moore-ish
white lie and a far-from stupid white lie. (Besides, the 'people-power'
principle would surely benefit humanity way more than any ad nauseam
doubling of computing power...).
So is Moore just another prophet of doom and disaster?
Well, you may as well ask the same question of Dickens, A Christmas Carol
and The Ghost of Christmas Future: sometimes it's the only way to stir the
soul - and kick some serious a*se ! (US=a*s !!).
But the moral - the message to the US and the West - is and surely always
has been quite simple: free yourselves from your dependence - not just on
"foreign" oil, Saudi oil, Middle Eastern oil - but from oil and fossil
fuels - period!
Stop waging wars to safeguard "energy security"(aka 'oil') - and start
investing urgently and big time (say, 10% of your military budgets) in clean
energy innovation and realworld eco-technologies.
And don't toss all your eggs into one big basket of hydrogen-hype!
Please end this nightmare - wake up and just do it - before it's too late.
For the sake of any children - or great-grandchildren - you ever happen to
have dreams about.
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On 3 Jan 2004 at 3:58, vinnybrain wrote:
> 20x US145
> 26x US2200/T105/SamsClubT105
> 20x US8VGC (doesnt seem like all that much more current than my
> 13xgrp27's can already produce)
You're talking about a Geo Metro, no? All of these options seem so massive -
between 1300 and 1700 lb - that they'd threaten to collapse the poor car.
Any of these would be ^way^ over GVWR.
> or
> a buddy string of 26 Orbital 34 XCM's (and all its entanglements)
I think even this at almost 1000 lb would still be too heavy. I'd be very
wary of putting anything over 800 lb of lead in that car.
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Randy Holmquist (Canadian Electric Vehicles) makes up his kits
with a big breaker on the HV positive lead that has a mechanical
pull to trip it, a big black panic button in the cab.
The contactors, relays and such are in a large gray box with
connectors coming out the bottom for all the circuits. There is
a relay for the charger port - when the signal wire is grounded
by a switch in the charger port, the controller is disabled.
Randy's kit makes initial wiring pretty easy. I had one problem
- a relay that was wired wrong, but it wasn't too hard to
diagnose, using the excellent wiring diagram that came with the
kit. Some of the wiring is specific to the sepex system, for
example, a backup relay that can be used to power backup lights
when you flip the forward/reverse switch on the dash. That
electric reverse switch always wows 'em. My son took his fiance
out for a test drive, came back, rolled down the window and
yelled, "Hey Dad, we're driving in reverse!". He had put both
the tranny and the controller in reverse, and was therefore
driving forward.
The 12 volt stuff is stock to the car, headlights always on, etc.
It is -29C this morning. I have plans to do the carpets this
weekend. I think I'll put one of the seats back in and do my
errands in the EV. The Insight is parked on the street and it is
just too cold for an ICE car. Made the mistake of taking the
Insight last night, freezing the whole way and 7.8 liters/100 km
consumption. This kind of weather makes even the Insight a
gross polluter.
Vive la Pile!
Mike Hoskinson
Edmonton
James Massey wrote:
snip
Yes, with an emergency disconnect the ICE problem of "throttle stuck,
dark, if I turn the key off I loose the headlights" is no longer valid.
I'm going to have relays for the headlights, so I won't be overloading
the 'ignition' switch. Valid change, although I'll check local
regulations, they may be required to be allways available. If so, I'll
allow the tap-in points for a headlight alert.
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